'Wingless' Bridge

[Calvin Marks]

A friend of mine in Orchestra London has no 'wings' on his bridge. I asked him once why he did this and he said it makes the sound much more "direct and focussed".

Here is an example of Andrew Miller and his lovely bass: http://dailygleaner.canadaeast.com/front/article/462348

Does anyone know of this practice?

Thank you kindly.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

John Feeney (world-class classical bassist in the NYC metro area) has a bridge like that. He likes it. I don't have any real-world experience with discerning the difference between this and a "normal" bridge. Someone (you, Calvin?) should cut their bridge down without changing anything else, then report here on the result. Perhaps someone who is about to have a new bridge cut can do it to their old one?

[Calvin Marks]

Okay, I've done some reading on this topic and I found a wbsite which contains a bit more information: http://www.rivinus-instruments.com/DesignConcepts.htm (Two thirds down the page).

To summarize, the wings of the bridge act as a dampening device. On an instrument which is generally shrill (like the violin), the wings cut down on the penetrating tone and add a bit of depth to the sound.

For Double Bass, (perhaps an ultra dark instrument) it may be a good idea to remove the wings since it would bring more focus and clarity to individual notes and perhaps increase resonance and volume due to the decreased mass on the bridge.

However, this may not work for brighter instruments as this could result in a penetrating tone to the ear.

From everyone I've spoken to with these bridges, the instruments clarity has always improved and volume has increased.

I will speak to Don Gorman about this considering that his instruments are by nature very dark in sound.

For someone doing auditions it may be good to have a slightly more focussed sound so you could project in the hall.

I believe Joel Quarrington uses this type of bridge, perhaps he could chime in?

Thanks.

[Mike Mandelas]

Dear friends i saw this bridge two years ago in Brighton, UK, in a performance of a local Symphonic Orchestra. The bassist told me that this bridge enhances clarity and makes a dark bass brighter. So i cut one of my bridges accordingly. I placed it in my darker sounding bass and the arco response improved dramatically, giving better trembles and a more focused sound. The piz sound, however, didn't changed in the same extent. My teacher ordered one of these bridges for her 100+ years old bass and when she put it on she said that it improved the sound of the instrument. This is my little experience in this wingless bridge. Now i'm working one for the principak bassist in the local Symphony and i'll inform you for his comments.

[Calvin Marks]

Dear friends i saw this bridge two years ago in Brighton, UK, in a performance of a local Symphonic Orchestra. The bassist told me that this bridge enhances clarity and makes a dark bass brighter. So i cut one of my bridges accordingly. I placed it in my darker sounding bass and the arco response improved dramatically, giving better trembles and a more focused sound. The piz sound, however, didn't changed in the same extent. My teacher ordered one of these bridges for her 100+ years old bass and when she put it on she said that it improved the sound of the instrument. This is my little experience in this wingless bridge. Now i'm working one for the principak bassist in the local Symphony and i'll inform you for his comments.

Great, can't wait to hear the results.

[Joel Quarrington]

OK, since you asked I will submit my two cents here!
I agree with the observations people have made so far but I am surprised because I thought the use of these bridges was quite well-known.
These "wing-less" bridges were introduced to me over thirty years ago by Ludi Pollak, the wonderful repairman and bassist in Toronto. He and his father were well known luthiers in Bucharest before coming to Canada and one of their clients was Vladamir Orloff, the great cello soloist. Orloff was practicing one day and mishandled his bow; he accidently knocked the wing off his bridge on the C string side, and was amazed at the increased volume and focus in the sound.
With the Pollaks help, he developed this into a belgium-stlye bridge with no wings. When Ludi and I started playing together in Hamilton back in the seventies he made me one and I have used one ever since and have learned alot about them.
They will absolutely make your bass more audible and easier to hear in the orchestra and they make it much easier to bow for some reason.
The wings are tone filters for the high end frequencies and are really just little mutes on the bridge; ultimately you can control better how "dark" your bass is. If you want clarity but not so much treble in the sound, than don't cut the wings but just try and get the overall weight down. I can't remember the exact numbers now, but at some point I was fairly into all of this. I think that a normal bridge might have been around 140 grams? (my numbers are probably all wrong), I think I thought the magic number for me was 120, but I am not sure. My friend Wolfgang Guettler was also into this; he had a bridge that was so thin; maybe 100 grams! he took a bridge, cut it in half and had a thin veneer of ebony inserted! This prevented it from warping, which I should mention is the biggest problem with a low mass bridge.
I don't recommend these bridges for all basses! If you have a dark bass that is hard to hear when you play in orchestra, then you have a candidate for the "procedure"! (You used to have to go to Scandinavia for that!)
Having a wing-less bridge on a bass that is already clear and open (bright) can be a real pain to listen to. It all has to be done with taste; with my style of playing you have to hear yourself play all the time so having a bridge like this is helpful but you don't want to inflict yourself too much on your section mates.
I would be cautious about showing up to an audition with a wing-less bridge if it isn't held behind a screen. I think that many of the notions of a dark set-up and "blending" are not compatible with the clear and open sound of a low mass bridge. Just seeing that you have no wings on your bridge might indicate to some people that you are not going to "blend".
Personally, I think that the best blend comes from everybody having great intonation and rhythm and that is only possible if you can hear what notes you are playing, sort of like the way all the other instruments work.
I would also like to mention that the best sounding bridge I have heard lately was made by my student, Ian Roberts, and it looks normal (with wings!) but it is very light. The quality and density of the wood make a big difference as well. If you use adjusters in your bridge then cutting the wings off can counter the effects sometimes; I am not a fan of metal adjusters, but for me, they become bearable with no wings.
I have sometimes wondered how and who decided on the modern shape of the double bass bridge that we have inherited today; I have seen on some old basses in museums etc..bridges that share many qualities with wing-less bridges, for instance low-mass, high arching, no feet, not to mention no wings!

[Ken Smith]

Joel, great Post and welcome to the Forum. What a way to get your feet wet with posting. That Post was almost as long as our back and forth emails were..lol

On the subject of 'wingless', is the Dragonetti d'Salo (http://www.contrabbassi.it/eng/restoration.html) Bass Bridge considered 'wingless' or something in between?

Also, I was recently reacquainted with my old Bass (http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=801&highlight=Rivolta) that I played and owned in NY for 20 years which I sold to buy my house. It is now in the hands of a great player in Helsinki Finland (Principal of the Section) and it has been converted to a 5-string. Is the Bridge on this bass 'wingless' as well or a hybrid in that respect?
http://www.smithbassforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=627&d=1220308816

I am glad you addressed the 'too bright' scenario because so many players today are jumping at every idea that pops out of the woodwork (literally) and it's not always best for everyone or every bass. Unlike with playing the Bass in a situation of trying the passage like this or like that, with basses, each trial idea is money and usually is a one way street with that expense.

[Joel Larsson]

Ah, it's good to hear different views! Last time I spoke with a Luthier, she was more into thick bridges to ensure that as much as possible of the vibrations were transplanted into the bass, so that no vibrations would 'spill over' into the tailpiece. Maybe I should get me another bridge someday, to try. But I can see the danger of the bridge warping... this ebony veneer, should it cleave the bridge in two or just be partly cut into the wood in the same manner as a graphite rod (or two) may be inserted in the neck of an electric bass? And about the density of the wood, would a higher density prevent it from warping or no, and how do it affect the sound?

[Calvin Marks]

Joel, thanks for your terrific input. It's one thing to speculate about these bridges without actually trying one out but it makes a world of difference when a world class player chimes in with his/her personal experiences.

I didn't know Ludi was the one that got you into these bridges. He mentioned that my bass could perhaps benefit from one while I was at his apartment several weeks ago.

PS: I'm sure we'd all love to hear more about your new Lamario bass!

Thanks again!

[Joel Larsson]

Joel, thanks for your terrific input. It's one thing to speculate about these bridges without actually trying one out but it makes a world of difference when a world class player chimes in with his/her personal experiences.

Why, thank you Calvin, thank you, thank you! :D

[Mike Mandelas]

Finally we tried the wingless bridge in the pricipal's bass and the results were even better. From your replies it seems that this bridge is common knowledge to many of you, so it's good to know that we are not talking about reinventing the wheel.
I also tried it with a Marvin wire tailpiece and IMHO the situation seems to be even better.
Now i'm waiting for a Hungarian double bass, built in the seventies, fully carved, which will be added in my collection. I found it in Atelier Paganini, in Prague, two weeks ago. It's a lovely instrument, built with excellent flamed maple and it delivers a "booming" piz sound. I'll try the wingless bridge ant the wire tailpiece on it and i'll let you know the results.
After it my final target will be a Cleveland hybrid, which i plan to buy in my next visit to the States. I think it's an honour for me to have an Arnold's instrument in my collection. Even if this means that i have to sell some of my other instruments, for space availability.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

So, would you guys with "wingless" experience recommend trying this on a bass used primarily for soloing? A particular client of mine is looking for faster response and a more open, bright and ringing sound. I've done what I could and it made a difference, but possibly not enough. Interestingly, the biggest difference was made by replacing the 1/2" carbon fiber endpin with a solid steel one.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Despite the lack of replies to my previous question, I decided to go ahead and amputate the wings on the bridge of this bass of mine. I spent a good deal of time bowing the bass before and after. My initial reaction, albeit from the user's position only, is that the bass gained some aggressiveness and clarity but gave up some sweetness. I'll post again after my client has had a chance to play it. It looks cool on this particular bass (Ergonomic IV).

[Ken Smith]

Despite the lack of replies to my previous question, I decided to go ahead and amputate the wings on the bridge of this bass of mine. I spent a good deal of time bowing the bass before and after. My initial reaction, albeit from the user's position only, is that the bass gained some aggressiveness and clarity but gave up some sweetness. I'll post again after my client has had a chance to play it. It looks cool on this particular bass (Ergonomic IV).

Arnold, you see the pattern here?:confused:

You Bowed the Bass and it lost some sweetness!:eek:

I never knew you to be the aggressive type..;)

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.. :D

[Brian Gencarelli]

Despite the lack of replies to my previous question, I decided to go ahead and amputate the wings on the bridge of this bass of mine. I spent a good deal of time bowing the bass before and after. My initial reaction, albeit from the user's position only, is that the bass gained some aggressiveness and clarity but gave up some sweetness. I'll post again after my client has had a chance to play it. It looks cool on this particular bass (Ergonomic IV).

I think it would be interesting to play around with the thickness of the bridge and taking the wings off. If you added mass in one place and removed it in another could you "tune" it to the bass? Maybe not lose some of the "sweetness" but focus the core of the sound? hmm...

[Calvin Marks]

Despite the lack of replies to my previous question, I decided to go ahead and amputate the wings on the bridge of this bass of mine. I spent a good deal of time bowing the bass before and after. My initial reaction, albeit from the user's position only, is that the bass gained some aggressiveness and clarity but gave up some sweetness. I'll post again after my client has had a chance to play it. It looks cool on this particular bass (Ergonomic IV).

Any news? :)

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Super loud, super bright, super aggressive. Took it off, but saved it for solo use.

[Calvin Marks]

Getting the procedure done next week, will let you all know the results!