Your thoughts about this bass

[Bob Van Basten]

Hello,

Does anyone have any comments this bass?
The label states "Johann Radeck Bürger", the seller says it's Austrian and he bought it from a Hungarian musician. Asking price is 3200$

http://www.flickr.com/photos/37572284@N08

Any thoughts about the structural quality, guessed value, age, ... are welcome.

Any ideas why there is a horizontal seam on the back?

Thx in advance!

Bob

[Ken Smith]

Hello,

Does anyone have any comments this bass?
The label states "Johann Radeck Bürger", the seller says it's Austrian and he bought it from a Hungarian musician. Asking price is 3200$

http://www.flickr.com/photos/37572284@N08

Any thoughts about the structural quality, guessed value, age, ... are welcome.

Any ideas why there is a horizontal seam on the back?

Thx in advance!

Bob

I looked at the bass and it looks like a modern/recently made Romanian/Hungarian (aka Gypsy) Bass that was antiqued in the making.

Austrian bass from a Hungarian musician?.. lol.. THAT is the smoking gun in two ways at least.

Let me explain why to you and anyone else running into these scams.

First off, unless that maker is currently making Basses, he does not and did not exist before 1960. There are two famous names used here as one that once did exist centuries ago and they are Radeck (Vienna) and Bürger (Germany 17 c.). There is a name like you list (Vienna, 1778-1797 or 1803) but the ', Burgerl' (with an L) is after the name like a place or something (on a facimle label in the Javolec book). It is very common for these Gypsy 'fakers' to mis-spell names. They most often do unless they directly copy a label. They usually copy a Bass or a label or both but often make some kind of mistake that screams out FAKE at least to the trained eye.

Ok, here is what's wrong that stands out with this bass and the statement.

There were never any basses made in Austria or Veinna that I have seen with Violin corners. If so, please show me one.

Second, the way these guys work in Hungry is they buy usually a Bass or Violin in Romania and then in Hungry, out of work Musicians combined with 'Jointers' (cabinet makers?) will antique them in every way possible including breaking and fixing them to look old. The bass looks like it has never been played. The wear is often in areas that do not get worn when playing. It is simple math. If you can't figure how it can be worn where it is and not where it isn't, then walk the other way!:eek:

Romanian/Hungarion fakes today is a HUGE business. Don't be a victum. If the Bass is nice, pay only a fair price for it as a new bass that is antiqued. Sometimes they need to be totally re-built internally so that makes it not such a good deal.

[Bob Van Basten]

Thanks for your insightful vision.

Even tho I don't have much experience in double basses I kinda had a feeling the wood didn't look 'right'.

What troubles me is that it has a bridge by Noël Warnier, he is a respected/experienced luthier over here (http://noel.warnier.free.fr/luthier/spip.php?article1).
I ask myself, why would somebody ask someone like him to cut him a (probably expensive) bridge for a crappy fake bass and on the other hand why would someone with his reputation get involved in this.

I just mailed the seller to ask him to take a photo of the builders label. A fake label will probably be easily reconcognizable.

[Ken Smith]

Thanks for your insightful vision.

Even tho I don't have much experience in double basses I kinda had a feeling the wood didn't look 'right'.

What troubles me is that it has a bridge by Noël Warnier, he is a respected/experienced luthier over here (http://noel.warnier.free.fr/luthier/spip.php?article1).
I ask myself, why would somebody ask someone like him to cut him a (probably expensive) bridge for a crappy fake bass and on the other hand why would someone with his reputation get involved in this.

I just mailed the seller to ask him to take a photo of the builders label. A fake label will probably be easily recognizable.

A bridge will cost what it costs. If not done well, it will need to be done again so why not just put the best on it the first time around.

I bought and sold two basses already suspected of this origin that were antiqued and sold as older basses of Italian origin. I had one fully restored and converted into a 5-string and the other repaired, new bass bar and beautiful C-extension. New fingerboards and bridges on both. Both of these basses sounded good the day I bought them before all the repairs and sounded even better after they were repaired and modified. The internal construction of one was poor so it all had to be corrected. The other bass was very well made but needed some work to optimize the sound.

The point is that name and the price must match. If the sound is there and the price is fair but the name sounds too good to be true then it probably isn't what they claim it to be.

The name that is in this bass does not match the model, origin or style of the bass as well as the overall age of the instrument. Now, just go look at the bass as a bass, no name, made in Romania or Hungary or combined. Then, do a full internal inspection of the bassbar, back braces, top graduations, internal blocks, neck fit, glues used and so on. Then, decide if the bass is worth the price figuring in any and all needed repairs to bring it up to par with professional bass making of any era as far as fit, glues, graduations etc. goes. If the Bass has a good sound, consider it if the condition is within reason. If the sound is not so good, then forget about even considering this bass regardless of what repairs can be done to improve it or combined with an attractive price. If the sound is not attractive then walk away. You can't beat a dead horse!

[Eric Swanson]

What troubles me is that it has a bridge by Noël Warnier, he is a respected/experienced luthier over here (http://noel.warnier.free.fr/luthier/spip.php?article1).
I ask myself, why would somebody ask someone like him to cut him a (probably expensive) bridge for a crappy fake bass and on the other hand why would someone with his reputation get involved in this.



It also seems impossible for us to know how the bass, and the bridge job, was presented to M. Warnier. I would respectfully suggest that he may not be "involved" but was, rather, simply a professional hired to make and fit a bridge, with no involvement beyond that.

If a luthier fits a bridge on my bass, it isn't his/her responsibility to vouch for anything but the quality and fit of the bridge, IMHO.

[Bob Van Basten]

@ Eric: Your probably right, I quess life as a luthier isn't always easy too and somethime you just have to make a living , every job is a job, right.

@ Ken: The seller has send me the photo's of the label and I uploaded them on the flickr page. The label looks kinda suspicous even to an untrained eye like mine :D
On the original add, the seller did not metion age but this really does not look like a bass made in 1783 LOL. It's also strange that the printed part of the label has the same color als de written date.