Does this look Yankee?

[Elijah Copeland]

This a very different scroll. 6 turns and some very unique carving towards the neck. It is also very narrow like Ken's Batchelder. The only other scrolls I've seen with the extra turns are Prescott and some 18th century Italians. What do you think? Yankee?:confused:

[Richard Prowse]

Well, doesn't look like a Confederate bass.

[Ken Smith]

Well, doesn't look like a Confederate bass.

lol, Elijah, see what you get when you ask things like this in a public forum?:mad:

Dr. Richard was visiting a patient and was told, "Doctor, it hurts when I go like 'this'." The good doctor replied (well maybe not so good), "then don't go like 'that'." :D

Now, on your Yankee question maybe you should take a minute, sit back, and ask yourself. Does this look like a Yankee?:eek: http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:OTLaVi53rmRidM:http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd78/taazwoman/NewYorkYankeeLegendsBabeRuthJoeDiMa.jpg

[Ken Smith]

This a very different scroll. 6 turns and some very unique carving towards the neck. It is also very narrow like Ken's Batchelder. The only other scrolls I've seen with the extra turns are Prescott and some 18th century Italians. What do you think? Yankee?:confused:

You mean.. Yankee Prescott school.. lol.. ok.. never mind my last post then... swy..:o

ok, ok.. If you can, take more pictures of the scroll but straight on like on my website, nothing artistic. Just a plain shot all 4 sides. Then, do the same with the body of the bass and show any details that look interesting in a separate picture. 10-20 pictures would help not having the bass in hand to inspect personally.

Remember now, Prescott Basses are not of an original design wholly. Their ideas were taken from mainly German style basses with the Scroll possibly being an English Viol of some sort from what I have read. For only having 3-strings, that's a very unusually long pegbox. Talk about a waste of wood.. English and Italian 3-string Scrolls are usually on the short side. The English carrying the flag on that one more so than the Italians.

I have seen several Italian Scrolls with an extra turn or half turn and this is nothing like that. The Italians are usually slightly shorter pegboxes with larger bold heads. This fits none of that idea in the least.

Many Austrian and Bohemian Basses were made with longer heads as well. Again though, unless you can show everything, guessing what this is would be a waste of time. maybe Yankee, maybe German, Austrian or what have you. Let's see the Bass, all of it!

[Elijah Copeland]

On the Yankee note, thanks for the laughs:D.

Another very intereresting feature of this instrument is a slab cut( or flat sawn) top!? The FFs are almost identical to Ken's Batchelder but they are attached at the tips like a Prescott. I am sooo excited I can hardly contain myself. I will post more pics on Monday(when the bass arrives).

[Elijah Copeland]

This pic might be helpful even though the resolution is terrible.

[Ken Smith]

Well, in the first scroll pic, the head looks pitched about 6 inches forward of the plane of the fingerboard joint. This is either because it's broken off at the throat/peg box-neck area or it's just made poorly.

The second pic shows a bass that looks to be very crudely made. Possibly by an amateur maker.

From these two pics so far I would guess something homemade on a Yankee idea. Age? Can be 10 to 100 or more years old. I can't tell at this point.

Also, it could be a Blockless style from the looks of the shoulder-neck area and the Top lacks purfling as well. As far as being similar to my Batchelder, that would be a compliment to this bass, not the Batchelder.

Still, without more and better pics, the 'jury' is still out. The Batchelder although made a bit on the crude side has a beautifully made Scroll and nicely cut FFs as well. It's unpurfled but so is my Martini, the Back of my big English Gamba and was my Dodd as well on both plates. The lack of Purfling alone is not a sign either way. It was a detail left out with the belief that it wasn't needed.

Richard could be wrong as well. It could be Confederate too. Who knows.. ;)

[Elijah Copeland]

The scroll is angled forward. So much so that the nut would have to be in the shape of a triangle. I don't know if it has been grafted yet (but from the looks of the wood on the neck and scroll I am currently under the assumption that it hasn't been grafted), I'll be able to answer that upon inspecting the bass in person.
Since we don't have better pictures yet, I think there are really only a couple of important things to discuss.
1. The neck has a very interesting shape. I have only located one other bass with the same general attributes of the neck shape http://www.worldofbasses.de/Instrumente_01/Rocca/rocca.html
The distinguishing characteristics that I found similar are the shape of the neck around the button, almost like that of a classical guitar, where the block doesn't taper towards the back. The shape of the neck is also very pointed like that of a 23' Lohr Gibson F-5, very different from any classical shape that I am familiar with. The final similarity is the upward swoop towards the scroll which I have only seen in the Italian school.
2. There is also a possibility that this bass has been cut down. The FFs are very long in proportion to the body. The upper bout is currently 18"+ the lower 22"+, the rib depth 7.5" and LOB is 38"+(these are approximate because I didn't take them). The only writing I was notified of is the name Eldrige 1893 OH. From my limited vantage point, this either means that this is the maker or the luthier/cabinetmaker that repaired the instrument(by repair I am referring to the addition of a 4th tuning gear). I have only found 2 references to a luthier under the name Eldridge(with an extra d)in the U.S. around the turn of the century, thus my reference to cabinetmaker. That being said, I think it is safe to say the bass is at least 100yrs old and was modified to be a 4 string around the turn of the century. I know the pics are bad but what about the tuning gears, it looks to me as though the 3 tuning plates that match might be original.
3. Slab cut top. Ironically, the bass that I mentioned earlier as having a similar neck shape had a partner from the same area
http://www.worldofbasses.de/Instrumente_01/Rastelli/rastelli.html
This bass looks nothing like the bass I posted but it does have a slab cut top. Does this bass have Italian characteristics? Putting 2 and 2 together: this bass is crude in construction, has extra turns in the scroll along with unique carving, neck shape is very unique and looks to be original, slab cut top, long upright FFs attached at the top and bottom, it is definately a Confederate Bass:D.

[Ken Smith]

He's a cabinet maker? That might help explain the crude work, lack of Purfling (maybe) and the incorrect Scroll setting to the plane of the neck/Fingerboard. That Scroll will need to be cut and grafter to a better neck. A block possibly added if it's blockless and that's just for starters. I would be surprised if any professional Bass luthier could repair this for under $10k to a professional working bass.

Remember, 3-strings were still in use around the world in spots well into the 1920s. French and English shops were still offering them regardless of the fact that most had switched over to mainly 4-string.

Your reference to the links of basses at WOB makes no sense to me at all. My Batchelder has a slabish cut top and yet I make no claim of Italianism there. Just the available wood at the time. Crude does not always equal Italian. Crude = crude, period. It's not a school of making. It's a lack of schooling in the making!

[Elijah Copeland]

He's a cabinet maker? That might help explain the crude work, lack of Purfling (maybe) and the incorrect Scroll setting to the plane of the neck/Fingerboard. That Scroll will need to be cut and grafter to a better neck. A block possibly added if it's blockless and that's just for starters. I would be surprised if any professional Bass luthier could repair this for under $10k to a professional working bass.

Remember, 3-strings were still in use around the world in spots well into the 1920s. French and English shops were still offering them regardless of the fact that most had switched over to mainly 4-string.

Your reference to the links of basses at WOB makes no sense to me at all. My Batchelder has a slabish cut top and yet I make no claim of Italianism there. Just the available wood at the time. Crude does not always equal Italian. Crude = crude, period. It's not a school of making. It's a lack of schooling in the making!

Ok, the cabinetmaker statement was opened with " From my limited vantage point" which is speculative to say the least.
It does look as though it is blockless and yes, the bill on this bass will far exceed the purchase price. That doesn't discourage me.
I agree that my attempt to relay the shape of the neck was a bit jumbled. I was at a loss for the proper descriptive terminology and strayed into left field a bit, sorry.:o
On the school of making, that was not very nice.:(
I don't claim to be an expert on double bass history, but I read just about everything I can get my hands on.
When I began this investigation, I led with Yankee based off the scroll and the attached FFs. After thoroughly examining the photographs, I am not convinced that the FFs are attached. I am also not convinced that the scroll is Yankee in style. I think that this bass reflects more European characteristics.
Crude does not mean Italian.
Look at the FFs closely, they are nearly 1/3 the lenght of the top plate. Then look at the C-bouts, very distinctive in shape and very long and kind of square in the bends. The bass in the picture below is very similar.
The FFs are placed in a very similar position, very upright and almost equadistant from the C-bouts(which are very similar as well).
I am not claiming this bass to be Italian by any means, but I have been hard pressed to find a set of FFs that match better.

[Ken Smith]

What can I say. You asked I think for some advice. I gave it to you. Your show pics of basses that have in my opinion 'zero' relationship to the bass you posed and seem to just be grabbing at straws here.

If the bass you have is in any way even a copy of something you showed in comparison, your bass is a crude effort to duplicate at best. Your Bass is probably not a professionally made bass (which many are) and that's about that. Age and origin to be determined. Blockless bass from Germany and Bohemia in that period were made quite a bit neater. I have seen many of them in person and have owned them in original and modified states, with or without the neck block.

I am not making guesses here, just sharing experience. If you think I am being mean, then try taking it for a professional appraisal somewhere and maybe you can buy your way into something better than it is if you pick the right shop that will tell you want you want to hear.

I am being nice by the way. Can't you tell?

The more basses you see, the better one might get at telling the differences and similarities. Maybe, as that's no guarantee. It's a gift that some people have or develop. The more you learn, the more you realize you don't know!

I am sure the repairs are greater then the purchase price. You would be in trouble if it wasn't. The problem is that basses like these, condition and model wise often cost more to repair that they will be worth. It's best to know this before going forward with such a venture.

I have an old German Blockless bass myself now. I knew this bass years before the Top sunk in and yet still I bought it. Why? I like the bass, like the sound and I can play it as-is. IF I ever get it restored, I will have it done to the degree that the bass is worth the price of the repairs. This means that no corners will be cut and the bass kept as original as possible with only the necessary modifications.

My Batchelder as well was more than likely made Blockless and has a grafted neck (original?). If the bass was not in good repair when I first saw it, I probably would not have bought it. I must thank blindly the owners and repairers of the past who have maintained and modified the bass to its current state.

[Martin Sheridan]

Crude workmanship. I think it's a bass made in Pennslyvania. Somewhere in the foggy foggy reaches of my mind I remember seeing an article on some guys who came from Saxony and made basses in Pennsylvania that looked a lot like this with the attached Fs. The Fs have a very Germanic turn on the bottom.
It even looks a little tiny bit like some of the old Mexican tololoches.

It's not Yankee in my opinion. There workmanship was to a much higher standard.

It also looks small.