Guarneri basses

[Joel Larsson]

I read about a 19th-century Italian virtuoso who travalled around Europe with a Guarneri bass. (With detachable neck, of all things.) I know that there has been some copying of the Guarneri model - for instance, Alfred Meyer (http://www.meyer-contrabass.de/eng/index.php?Instrumente:Guarneri) makes Guarneri copies - but I always thought that it was the same with the Guarneri type models as with Stradivari; a famous maker who didn't actually build any basses, only got them attributed to him in lack of knowledge/for want of money/for convenience, or that any seriously made copies where a violin/cello model was simply adapted to the DB.
Now, this suggests that I was wrong. Are there really some Guarneri made Double Basses in the records?

[Ken Smith]

I read about a 19th-century Italian virtuoso who travalled around Europe with a Guarneri bass. (With detachable neck, of all things.) I know that there has been some copying of the Guarneri model - for instance, Alfred Meyer (http://www.meyer-contrabass.de/eng/index.php?Instrumente:Guarneri) makes Guarneri copies - but I always thought that it was the same with the Guarneri type models as with Stradivari; a famous maker who didn't actually build any basses, only got them attributed to him in lack of knowledge/for want of money/for convenience, or that any seriously made copies where a violin/cello model was simply adapted to the DB.
Now, this suggests that I was wrong. Are there really some Guarneri made Double Basses in the records?

Well, I don't know of any confirmed basses by this family despite the claims in the Elgar book. There are thousands of Strad copy basses out there so I guess they can use any name they like. I 'named' a bass after Amati knowing that to date, there are no confirmed Amati basses. Why not ask Meyer what exact Bass they copied and who confirmed it? Can't hurt. Also age Pollmann while your'e at it. They make one as well namer Guarneri.

[Richard Prowse]

I have a picture of a guy called Zubin Mehta, whose bass looks just like the one on the
alfred Meyer site, but obviously is an old bass. He was a bassist who became a conductor (he seems to be alive and kicking). There's a lot about him on the web, but I have people coming to dinner and must go. His photo, with the bass, is in a book called 'Images of Music' by Erich Auerbach. I hope this is of help.

[Ken Smith]

I just read this (http://www.meyer-contrabass.de/eng/index.php?Home) and I am a bit confused;
Welcome to the double bass workshop "ALFRED MEYER" in the heart of the musictown Markneukirchen!

You will find the town Markneukirchen in the middle of the beautiful Vogtland, the centre of the german production of orchestra instruments.
Once here created bohemian violin maker the tradition of the construction of music instruments in our region.The first double bass maker guild in Bohemian had been founded 1677 in Markneukirchen. Since then generations of families have been involved in making musical instruments.

We are following this tradition and we see the making of master-instruments as our life´s work.

Markneukirchen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markneukirchen) Germany is IN Bohemia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemia)? :confused:
I thought Bohemia was on the Czech side on the border across thru Prague.

In the Historical map with Bohemia in red, Markneukirchen is just on the border but doesn't look to be IN Bohemia, just next to it with Prague being smack in the middle as I had believed it to be. I would expect any Guild of Bohemia to be more centered like in Prague rather than in Germany just on their western border or outside of it. Strange I think.

[Joel Larsson]

That is their lousy English, I believe. At least, when I used my lousy German and an online translator to interpret the German version of the page, the text says that the violin making tradition was established by Bohemian makers and that the first GERMAN violin maker guild was founded there in 1677. Perhaps it's not their English but just a goof. :)

[Calvin Marks]

I have a picture of a guy called Zubin Mehta, whose bass looks just like the one on the
alfred Meyer site, but obviously is an old bass. He was a bassist who became a conductor (he seems to be alive and kicking). There's a lot about him on the web, but I have people coming to dinner and must go. His photo, with the bass, is in a book called 'Images of Music' by Erich Auerbach. I hope this is of hel
p.

Mehta is a prety big deal...Used to be Principal Conductor of the LA phil. I believe he's in Israel now? There's historic footage on Youtube of him performing the Trout Quintet with Jackie Dupres, Pearlman, Zukerman and Barenboim on piano. Excuse my spelling.

[Richard Prowse]

What a clip! I've just watched it, unfortunately with no sound. He was playing German, I thought he played French.

[Calvin Marks]

What a clip! I've just watched it, unfortunately with no sound. He was playing German, I thought he played French.

That's funny, I've seen it with sound. He played German and I believe he studied Double Bass and Conducting at the Vienna Conservatory way back when.

[Martin Sheridan]

The Guarneri family worked in Cremona, Italy. There are no known basses by any of the Cremona families although there is one bass attributed to G.B. Rogeri who studied there.

[Joel Larsson]

Neither Meyer nor Pöllmann have responded to my question as to which bass they used as a blueprint. I guess we deal with attributions in both cases - as well as with the Guarneri that Dall'Occa supposedly played back in the days - attributions that may not even prove very trustworthy if tried today. A good model is a good model, I guess. :)

[Eric Rene Roy]

I too would like to know where they got the model to go with the name. But...there is a Strad Viol in the Shrine to Music...you can see it here: http://www.usd.edu/smm/Cellos/Stradivari/10845StradCelloViol.html . The Viol was about cello size...but with the sloping shoulders of a DB. Someone added to it to make it a cello shape...but you can still perfectly see the Viol outline. Someday I intend to turn this viol outline along with the ff holes and blow it up to DB proportions. To me this is what a Strad DB would have looked like had a DB been made by his shop.

Also...when we first started playing with bass shapes...I took the Guarneri template I used for a viola I made and added sloping shoulder to it to see how it would look as a bass. It looked too much like the "Carcassi" basses you see from Eastern Europe.

[Ken Smith]

The Guarneri family worked in Cremona, Italy. There are no known basses by any of the Cremona families although there is one bass attributed to G.B. Rogeri who studied there.

Didn't a confirmed Ruggeri sell recently to Toronto for a huge sum? Storioni and his pupil Ceruti also made basses but slightly later. I agree on this that Strad' didn't and the Amati family has yet to produce a confirmed DB. As far as any of the Guarneri members, this I am not certain of. I do know that as far as the larger instruments go, Venice was far more active in Basses (aka V.Cellos) and Double Basses in that period.

[Joel Larsson]

Isn't there at least one confirmed bass by Nicolo's son, Hieronymous II (http://www.thomasmartin.co.uk/instruments-for-sale/amati.html)? Of course, he is considered far inferior to his father as well as to his contemporary, Stradivari, but people aren't always right. :) (Especially when it comes to basses... and attributions.)

Thomas Martin makes copies of a Ruggeri double bass, built in 1695, then apparently owned by a Dutch player. Maybe that's the same bass as the one sold to Toronto, or - all the better - there are more than one..?

[Ken Smith]

Isn't there at least one confirmed bass by Nicolo's son, Hieronymous II (http://www.thomasmartin.co.uk/instruments-for-sale/amati.html)? Of course, he is considered far inferior to his father as well as to his contemporary, Stradivari, but people aren't always right. :) (Especially when it comes to basses... and attributions.)

Thomas Martin makes copies of a Ruggeri double bass, built in 1695, then apparently owned by a Dutch player. Maybe that's the same bass as the one sold to Toronto, or - all the better - there are more than one..?

No, that bass is not confirmed as far as I know. I know the current owner of the bass as I just met him last week at the ISB. I was offered one by that maker as well a few years back and was told by another dealer that it was Amati 'school' at best or 'in the style of'.

[Calvin Marks]

More importantly, how does it sound??

[Calvin Marks]

Didn't a confirmed Ruggeri sell recently to Toronto for a huge sum? Storioni and his pupil Ceruti also made basses but slightly later. I agree on this that Strad' didn't and the Amati family has yet to produce a confirmed DB. As far as any of the Guarneri members, this I am not certain of. I do know that as far as the larger instruments go, Venice was far more active in Basses (aka V.Cellos) and Double Basses in that period.

That was 2 years ago. Jeff Beecher, the new Principal Bass of the Toronto Symphony bought Peter Lloyd's Ruggieri...What an instrument. You can hear that individual bass from the audience.

[Joel Larsson]

Pöllmann responded:

Sorry for the late response.
We have seen the original Andrea Guarneri some years ago in USA and we
making a outline of the bass. The original is in Minnesota by Peter Lloyd.
Since some years we build this Guarneri and the Model comes
more and more popularly. So, some Bassmaker colleges have now
the great idea to make also Guarneri models....

Best regards
Pöllmann Bassmaker
Ralph

[Ken Smith]

Pöllmann responded: Originally Posted by Ralph Krahmer
Sorry for the late response.
We have seen the original Andrea Guarneri some years ago in USA and we
making a outline of the bass. The original is in Minnesota by Peter Lloyd.
Since some years we build this Guarneri and the Model comes
more and more popularly. So, some Bassmaker colleges have now
the great idea to make also Guarneri models....

Best regards
Pöllmann Bassmaker
Ralph


I just met Ralph in person along with hie 'big' brother Michael. We have talked by Email in the past but this time they (Michael mainly) looked over my 'Big Gamba' and gave me his opinion of how it might have been made and where. It was very interesting and to date, maybe the best opinion I have had as well. Then Michael said after giving his final opinion.."Ok, (hand reaches out) $100. please..:D..".. But a slightly smaller smile that than as I was reaching for my wallet. His hand went down as I grabbed my wallet so I just smiled, put my wallet, shook his hand and said thanks.. He visited the Bass at least one other time afterwords as well.

[Ken Smith]

Amati, Shmati.. More importantly, how does it sound??

Well, I have no idea. I have never played either of them. Only saw them in pictures.

One day maybe you will get to play the Storioni and the Big Ben Gamba of mine and compare it to what you have played or heard so far. The only way to learn about these basses, origins or sounds is to see a lot of them, examine them, play then and listen to them. Pictures only fill in a small part of the puzzle. Real life hands-on from what I have learned is the only way. 'Experience' as they say is the best teacher.