Where are they??

[Ken Smith]

The BIG old German Basses from Mittenwald (http://www.itcwebdesigns.com/tour_germany/violin1.htm) made 150 years ago and before, where are they? Other than a few for sale in London or Germany on occasion you hardly ever hear about them?

These would be those of the Kloz/Klotz family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klotz_%28violin_makers%29) and the later Seitz/Seiz, Neuner and/or Hornsteiner family of makers. Throw in Baader/Bader while you're at it!

These are the real big 4/4 or 5/4 (as some call them) full sized Basses.

Is it possible that the Central European players love them so much that they just don't give them up? ..or?.. Has it just been more profitable for dealers scouring Europe over the years to bring back only Italian, English and French Basses?

Lets talk some German here.. Basses I mean.;)

[Sked James]

well, here is an Austrian bass for sale,
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=558909

..looks like a nice bass , and at the right price. I have played quite a few good sounding German basses , but can't say i find the look of many of them attractive . They can look a bit ugly.
This one looks nice . . Those hat peg tuners just don't do it for me though.

[Sked James]

here is a couple of Neuner & Hornsteiner , at the bottom of the page here , very nice looking basses ,
http://www.yamamoto-bass.com/bass/room.html
i played one once , had a huge sound , but it was such a large bass ,it was almost impossible to play , ... i'm 5'10 '' so no shorty , but i couldn't get around on that thing . If i remember, the stop was 44 inches .

[Ken Smith]

well, here is an Austrian bass for sale,
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=558909

..looks like a nice bass , and at the right price. I have played quite a few good sounding German basses , but can't say i find the look of many of them attractive . They can look a bit ugly.
This one looks nice . . Those hat peg tuners just don't do it for me though.

Nice bass but it looks more German than Viennese to me. The label doesn't seem to match the bass either. If it were an 1809 dated bass German or Viennese then all you would need now to answer my call "where are they?" would be to have it in a 4/4 full sized. I am looking for the really BIG ones. Basses that measure somewhere like my Big Gamba (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/MysteryBass/name_that_bass2.htm) which most believe is English but not everyone.

String length alone does not determine size in my book. It is the body length mainly. So 47-48" long or so is the targeted size for the 4/4. Bridge placement with or without centering on the F-hole nicks determine the string length. Depending on where the FFs were cut into the Top would determine the intended string length along with the length of the neck itself.

Nice Bass you links us to there but please, keep looking..

[Ken Smith]

here is a couple of Neuner & Hornsteiner , at the bottom of the page here , very nice looking basses ,
http://www.yamamoto-bass.com/bass/room.html
i played one once , had a huge sound , but it was such a large bass ,it was almost impossible to play , ... i'm 5'10 '' so no shorty , but i couldn't get around on that thing . If i remember, the stop was 44 inches .


This one here (http://www.yamamoto-bass.com/bass/z-111/hornsteiner%201869.html) is closer to what I am looking for but 1869 is more like the factory era of the firm N&H. They actually had that company for about 250 years so I guess the factory thing is cool. I am looking for original old Basses by Neuner, Seitz, Klotz, Stainer (if any real ones exist), Hornsteiner (if there are non-firm made basses), Baader, and any from other individual makers that made those big 4/4 full sized Basses. Some may have even been made (from what I have read) as 3-String Basses (yes, in Germany) but strung with only the Lower strings, the treble string removed so it supports the bottom of the Orchestra. Unlike the 3-string model from Italy, France, England and Spain where they removed the lower string. Making the bass 'full sized' would have been more practical for producing the lower fundamental bass notes desired.

So, keep 'em coming. May I suggest looking at Orchestras actually IN central Europe where the might be hiding there in the Bass section. From what I have read, several makers made 4/4 sized basses in Germany from the period I mentioned and mostly in Mittenwald. I just wanna see as many of them as I can find.

[Anselm Hauke]

...Is it possible that the Central European players love them so much that they just don't give them up? ...

...Orchestras actually IN central Europe where the might be hiding there in the Bass section. ...

;):o:rolleyes:

[Ken Smith]

;):o:rolleyes:

Ok, you silence Sir Anselm is loudly heard!

Maybe being from this region, you could tell us things one would only learn from being a German native experiencing these 'hidden treasured basses' first hand.. Can you?

[Joel Larsson]

I suppose you have already seen http://www.contrabass.co.uk/2748.htm, but anyway.
I know that some basses like that are residing around the country. I guess it is only logical to assume that they are even more frequent in Germany... got that impression when I was down there in March.

[Ken Smith]

I suppose you have already seen http://www.contrabass.co.uk/2748.htm, but anyway.
I know that some basses like that are residing around the country. I guess it is only logical to assume that they are even more frequent in Germany... got that impression when I was down there in March.

I know that bass and the size is on track but that is a late bass for the period and age I am looking for. I am looking for c.1700 - c.1820 or so. Supposedly the American/Yankee maker Prescott took his ideas for his Gamba and Busetto/lower rounded corner and full sized model from one or some German basses at the time. This would be 1811-1830 or so in which some of them were first made in USA.

Also, the Hill family of London c.1760-1780 or so made basses with outer Rib linings that are thought to be of German design. So, where are the Basses that they copied this from? Not 1880 but 1780 and before. Who were the makers? The Klotz family? The elder Neuners? Who?

I would venture to say and guess this. I have an old bass possibly from this period that most believe is English but according to one professional (I shouldn't really say expert) thinks it may have been made in Mittenwald for the English market. He mentioned that the Tarr basses were made this way as well. Maybe in the white and finished off there. I pointed out the English style 3-string scroll and asked "this is German??" He replied, "they will make what you ask for!"

We know already that the later Hawkes Basses from about 1890 were contracted to Germany as well as some earlier Basses sold by Tarr (probably not all of the Tarr Basses are German). We also know that England and Germany were not only trading partners but partners in War as they joined the British troops fighting the settlers here in America that were aided by the French. These would be the Prussians I think.

In the Violin market, the English makers from the latter 1700s on thru the mid 1800s had to compete with cheaper imports of 'fiddles' coming from both Germany and France alike. We also know that model wise, the English favored the Stainer and Tirol patterns over the newer introduced Italians of which Amati was the first followed by Strad.

I have seen many 'attributed' English Basses that looked very German in design but English in flavor as well. This I guess would be either an English made German model or a German made English model? How can we tell them apart if for the most part, they are mixed in flavor?

Well, anyway my theory is this on the 'missing basses'. For one, the Germans like their homegrown original old basses. Two, playing a local bass saves them money from buying one imported from England or Italy as these are more expensive in the world market as well. As we see many many Italian & English Basses filling the Orchestras in USA and around the world the Central European Orchestras at least in part (as they too have been spotted with 'some' Italian & English basses) seem content with their own German basses.

If this Big Bass of mine (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/MysteryBass/name_that_bass2.htm) is of German birth (and it was cut down a bit well over a century ago as well) then it may help to shed some light on this mystery. Mittenwald, even going back 250 years ago were 'contractors' as well as makers of their own brand. We know of mainly the 'brands' of Basses we see here that were made for the most part in the 20th century and shipped in to be labeled by the importer. It's just we havent put 2 & 2 together to see that this is and was not a new idea. It was going on for over a century before, just mainly unnoticed.

I guess with this economic and cultural favored home grown Basses the same could be said for the old Viennese as well. I have personally only seen one full sized Thir Bass in my life over here.

So, the question remains, where are all the really OLD (pre 1850) really BIG (4/4 & 5/4) German Basses from the Mittenwald School?

My next question would be when did they start making basses of this full size regularly in Germany or specifically in Mittenwald.

Funny thing, looking at my big Bass at the ISB, a German says Klotz school and the same day an Italian says Gagliano School. The English for the most part say Central or Northern England while a few have mentioned a maker or two in London. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Do they see just what the want to see or are their eyes just biased subconsciously?

[Jeff Campbell]

Hi Ken,

I played your mystery bass several times at the ISB - what an amazing sound!
I live in Rochester, NY and know Paul and Jesse at CSC. I play in the RPO and am on the faculty at the Eastman school. I too had a mystery bass at the ISB. It's a 5/4 instrument that I've always thought of as German. I showed it to a well known luthier and as I was getting it out of the case, another shop owner came by and said that he had a customer who had a very big bass JUST like mine and that it had a label by E. Withers. The first luthier then pulled from his collection a bass JUST like mine that he attributed to James Brown. Within a few minutes I went from having never seen another bass like mine to knowing of three.

When I got home, I did some homework and got in touch with the Contrabass Shoppe and sent a photo of my bass. They told my is was probably of Mittenwald origins perhaps made by Neuner, Hornsteiner, or Seitz. I did more home work and found a bassist who has a bass from 1827 by Seitz as shown in the photo. The lower portions of the C bouts are similar to those on your mystery bass Ken.

My bass has very large dimensions as listed below:

Back length 46 5/8"
upper bout – 22"
middle bout - 16"
lower bouts - 28 3/4"

Depth of lower ribs - 8 1/4"

Body Stop – 23 7/8"

String length 43"

I'll attach a few photos in my next post. I guess my question is - what kind of bass is this? I've heard both Mittenwald and English. Photos to follow...

[Ken Smith]

Interesting stuff here. All of the English dealers after looking at pics of my big bass said it was English. The first time I saw the bass and examined it in my office I was getting brain flashes in my head.. German.. no, English.. no.. German.. no, English.. over and over again as I looked it over.

I too have seen some other Basses 'on-line' that have sold as English but looked a bit German as well. What are they really? Well, let's look at a few things here first..

Oh, and before I begin on the E.Withers comment, I was told by one English player at the ISB that he too has seen basses like mine. Two of them and they are labeled and or attributed to R. or W. Davis! The successor to the Davis shop was none other than Edward Withers I.

Ok, here is a list of features on these basses that could be considered German;
..a black center string running the full length of the back.
..the top purfled but the back unpurfled.
..the back bending gradually from the upper corner block to the neck block.
..the fine grain top wood and fine even flamed back wood
Features that would also be on these German basses would be;
..a full 3/4, 4/4 or 5/4 size often with lower rounded corners aka busseto.
..a scroll made to fit 4-strings as 3 was rare but sometimes used with the lower 3 only for support.
..a varnish that is usually spirit based and the wear on it 'chippy' rather than 'rub-type' fading wear.
..the inner linings led 'into' the corner blocks rather than just flush fit.

On the English Basses, here are some similar features with some differences we find on them;
..the black center back strip if present can be original or added as a later repair. If original it could have been a contracted bass 'in the white' from Mittenwald, maybe?
..The Top purfled and the back not purfled BUT black lines painted in its place (visual on my bass).
..the bend up at the neck area quite steep and not gradual as mine has but does start at the corner block and bends drastically the last 1/3rd of the way.
..wood grade can be domestic or imported as England did trade with Germany so species of wood is no guarantee of origin of bass (in my opinion).
.. a full 3/4, 4/4 or even 5/4 in size. Tops ranging from 44" to 46" to 48".
.. a shorter scroll made to fit only 3-strings with no vision or extra space to fit 4 tuners. The reason why the 4 tuners on many old English Basses are so close together.
.. a varnish that seems stronger than others of the same era that is often oil based but after 2 centuries of repairs we see a lot of spirit added over it often showing the layers.
..inner linings are up to the block and not inlet into the corners with the exception of some English basses where the linings are let in only within the c-bout on the inside of the block and not from outer edge to the bouts.

I know this is a lot of reading but work is work. Did I mention cross bars on the back? The Germans would typically have 4. One center, one lower and two upper. This Bass of mine had twin lower bars but thin like a cello bass bar at maybe 1/2" wide an inch apart like an old Gamba might have. A center and one upper look original on the scars as well but the secondary scars look to maybe have 4 bars. Currently it has a 3-pc X-brace that looks over 100 years old.

My Scroll was a 3-string and the TP was as well but doesn't look to be the original TP. Maybe was put on when the X-brace was. My Bassbar is thin, shallow and short. Looks to be made to support only 3 gut strings. The Top however is strong with no sinkage ever in its past, a healthy arch and some extremely fine grain spruce as well. It currently has a 170mm wide bridge as the Bar is inset a bit. The upper inner F-Eye measurement is about 190mm. This is a BIG bass.

Jeff, did we personally meet at the Show? Did I see your Bass? I don't recall either.

Anyway, on this mystery hunt one theory may be that some of the English Basses that look German may be a bit of both. Made in Mittenwald and finished in England or made in England and repaired or modified in Germany.

My Big bass has been cut and not just up at the Block like recently done. It looks like the outer bouts were cut-trimmed in a bit and maybe even shortened a bit at the lower block around the Bouts as well. The Re-curve is gone in all of these areas and only in the upper bout near the block and the Corners somewhat.

The outline that we see now on it was actually more squat looking and less roundish at the upper and lower bouts as the purfling is not there on these suspected cut areas of the bouts but is there at the bottom and corners but not so complete. The original edges may have been re-used in areas as well. The upper portion of the bass near the neck looks original for the most part. This Bass had been worked on by many people in the past. I would say that the last was about 80-100 years ago or so when converted to 4-string not including the most recent restoration. This Bass even had a C-extension at one time as well but was out of repair for most on the 20th century.

[Ken Smith]

Can I see a close up pic of the Neck-block area under the Top, the Ribs and the Scroll (all sides with tuners). Thx..

[Jeff Campbell]

Hi Ken,

Here are some photos:

[Ken Smith]

Well Jeff, aside from both basses you show being Gamba shaped I don't see much in common between them.

Better pics of both might help but I need to see Ribs, scrolls and Neck/block area as well.

[Jeff Campbell]

Am having trouble loading photos. Here's one of the side of the bass.
I'm not suggesting that our two basses are the same... I just got
very curious about your mystery bass and the idea of the large Mittenwald basses. More to come when I can figure out the picture problem.

[Jeff Campbell]

Here's another photo of the ribs, neck joint. Yes we met at the convention but did not speak for long. You were swamped. I did not show you my bass, though I wish I would have. It has a huge, deep organ like sound. Very satisfying to play. I think this is a Mittenwald bass - never thought it anything else until I met the two other people at the convention who said their basses like mine were English.

[Ken Smith]

Am having trouble loading photos. Here's one of the side of the bass.
I'm not suggesting that our two basses are the same... I just got
very curious about your mystery bass and the idea of the large Mittenwald basses. More to come when I can figure out the picture problem.

What I meant was that the two you posted are different. That's all. The first one does look like a Seitz I saw a few years ago on a German website.

The Gears on your bass are nearly identical to the ones put on mine after it was converted to a 4-string. I shipped them to NY and trying to get them back now just to have. The plates on your I have seen pictured before on a few German Basses. One had the same exact gears as well.

[Ken Smith]

Here's another photo of the ribs, neck joint. Yes we met at the convention but did not speak for long. You were swamped. I did not show you my bass, though I wish I would have. It has a huge, deep organ like sound. Very satisfying to play. I think this is a Mittenwald bass - never thought it anything else until I met the two other people at the convention who said their basses like mine were English.

I don't know what it is but most of the older English Gamba shaped Basses I have seen had broader shoulders and not sloped like your. I don't see a Seitz connection but maybe one of the Neuner's if it's Mittenwald. Are the Shoulders original or have they been cut?

I would have loved to see and play this Bass. Most big basses have less than friendly shoulders to match. Your Bass looks like it's easy to get up into thumb position without much stretch.

[Jeff Campbell]

The funny thing is that the person whose bass is labled Withers says his bass is larger than mine so I assume if made by the same person that mine was cut down. The front is perfled the back is not. There is a hint of a black line down the center of the back but it almost looks painted on and it doesn't run all the way down. There was some pretty major damage to the back of the neck joint at some point. I'll post a few more pics of this and the inside of the bass.

[Jeff Campbell]

Sorry for the multiple posts. These all show the details of the constructive elements of the bass. It's clear from the photo of the scroll that this bass has always been a four stringer. The bass has five braces, one large one in the middle and two in the upper and two in the lower. Also, you can see the black strip down the back is faint.

[Ken Smith]

Interesting pics. I would also like to see the rear button of the Scroll/pegbox.

The Scroll and Gears looks original to each other. I would say Mittenwald 1820-1860 period, maybe later. Not sure. Do you know for sure if this Scroll is original to the Bass?

The Braces in the Back (would like to see the lower one too) look German as well, like seen on Hornsteiner Basses. But, the Bars have been thinned across the top of them. The oxidation on the edge is way older than the top.

The Back Button area does not look original meaning it was cut. The upper block and Rib-Neck caps of Ebony are part of that cut.

The inner linings are from various dates but does look like German work internally.

Jeff, in your first post with the two pics (Seitz bass?) you show some measurements. Are they from this bass or that bass?

This Bass also has some northern Italian flavor which is why I think it is Mittenwald from the early-mid 19th century. Very interesting looking bass. Thanks for the pics. More pics would be welcomed.

[Jeff Campbell]

Thanks for all your help Ken. I'm a slow tech-no learner but wanted to share a few more photos of my big mystery bass (although, some things are becoming more clear). The measurements I sent a few posts ago are from this bass not the Seitz bass I posted a while ago. I've set up a link with the photos of the bass giving more detail. Any observations are appreciated. I also have a Morelli bass dated from 1910 that I'm going to take some photos of. Though I've seen a lot of Morelli basses, I've not seen too many with the same general shape as mine. Most I've seen are from the 1920s and beyond but I've not see another one like mine from 1910. Here's the link

http://www.flickr.com/photos/40196546@N07/

[Ken Smith]

First off, on the Morelli, I have a section just for that here (http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=14). Morelli is a brand that was made in Germany and labeled here, sometimes stamped there. I don't think any of them were ever dated.

On this big boy, I think this is just as described to me by Michael Krahmer (Pollmann) at this past ISB. On the Backs of these old Mittenwald Basses, 2 bars at the bottom, one center and two upper, exactly as your bass shows. The Klotz family was still active I believe into 1800.

May I suggest you send these pics to Pollmann as well and ask Michael what he think of it. He looked at my bass and thought it was Cut. I was told previously that it was wear and not cut. I thought personally that the Bouts were cut slightly. He thinks the bottom and lower corners were cut possibly as well. He has a good eye and knows his past native bass makers.

The upper bouts of your bass are also a bit uneven. That's another possible sign of being cut. The fact that the treble side of the upper bout front and back are sloped slightly more is also a sign that the bass was cut the play the upper positions. Something that was not in vogue when the bass was first made.

I know I mentioned some northern Italian flavor but the Italians have also used a little German flavor from time to time. 3 Italian Basses I currently own (c.1800s, 1919 and 1936) were all made with 'hidden' dovetail neck joints. Unlike the German style in which the the Necks appear to sit on top of the block and then dovetailed into the block, sometimes obviously, the Italians are set in with the Top covering the joint. Only if the Top or back is removed can you see that it is dovetailed.

On my Italians, 2 of 3 have been changed to a mortise joint in restoration ad the 3rd will be as well. My Big Bass had a dovetail as well but the neck was not original to the block. On one of my Italians, the Neck was secondary as well and still dovetail. The Dovetail has been used everywhere at one time or another so that in itself is not a definite sign of origin. I assume personally that the dovetail came from cabinet making and many makers of basses did as well. Not all bass makers were trained violin makers either. Also, some trained makers may have believed the dovetail was better with the neck itself extending along the back behind the block as well. That style I was told is Mittenwald, old school like Klotz. M.Klotz the eldest Mittenwald maker trained with a Fussen maker that had settled in Padua Italy. Maybe we are looking at modified Fussen school when we look at Mittenwald. I have seen only one Fussen Bass that was very old, maybe 17th century and it easily passed for Italian. Fussen may be the birth place of the blockless bass as well.

We spend so much time rather the violin and bass world on studying the Italians, French and English that the souther German and Tirol makers rarely get a mention. Maybe this is because their better work has passed as Italian in the trade!

[Jeff Campbell]

Thanks Ken,

I'll contact the Michael. Do you an email address? Also, I posted some photos of my Morelli bass on the link you sent. If you have a minute, would love for you to take a look.

Thanks,

JC

[Ken Smith]

Thanks Ken,

I'll contact the Michael. Do you an email address? Also, I posted some photos of my Morelli bass on the link you sent. If you have a minute, would love for you to take a look.

Thanks,

JC

I got this from their website; info@poellmann-contrabass.de

I saw the Morelli and made my comments. Nice bass as well.

[Michael Glynn]

There is a picture of a Seitz bass with rounded lower corners towards the bottom of this page (http://www003.upp.so-net.ne.jp/ultrabassissimo/contents/myktrie.html). Again, probably a little late for what you are looking for. Of course, that page also show the famous "Bussetto" formerly belonging to Rainier Zepperitz.

As I've mentioned on that "other" bass site, I believe the rounded lower corners and f-hole designs on that instrument are derived from the viola d'amore family. Another thread here showed a bass by Woodbury and Burditt (http://www.nahrmannbass.com/bb/index.php?topic=15.0)that also shows some of these more exaggerated viola d'amore type features (for example, compare it to this viola d'amore (http://lh3.ggpht.com/HayleyKilroy/Rwn4f_TeWrI/AAAAAAAABkY/VGh5zgeYorM/DSC01845.JPG?imgmax=512)), but with standard f-holes. This bass makes me wonder if at least part of the inspiration for the rounded lower corners on many early American basses came from true viola d'amore style instruments, rather than simply Mittenwald basses with rounded lower corners. Here (http://www.baroqueinstruments.com/busch.htm)is a modern reproduction of a violone made in Nuremberg in 1640 with strong viola d'amore features as another comparison to the Woodbury and Burditt instrument.

Incidentally, while looking up some stuff on Woodbury and Burditt (and it seems their basses may have been actually made by William Conant (http://brattleborohistory.com/antiques-fossils/william-a-conants-violins.html)) I found this interesting notice from the "Fourth Exhibition of the Massachusetts Charitable Mechanic Association (http://books.google.com/books?id=8QwAAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA128&lpg=PA128&dq=woodbury+and+burditt+bass&source=bl&ots=f--zmlymO1&sig=tgtTNlSAOoItcjc-EzH490V0878&hl=en&ei=3GRbStLRL47asgPnxOCDCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5)" in 1844, mentioning a musicial instrument competition that included instruments from Woodbury and Burditt, Prescott, Dearborn and others. This notice (http://books.google.com/books?id=6wwAAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA2-PA93&dq=prescott+bass+viol&lr=) from their first exhibition in 1837 mentions basses and cellos by Prescott, the Dearborns, J.B. Allen, and Henry Prentiss. It also mentions that, regarding the basses and cellos:"They have been constructed upon such models of instruments of foreign manufacture, as the makers chanced to meet with; and, where these models have been departed from, the changes have all been made without reference to any other use of the instrument, than as mere accompaniment to the voices in common psalmody."

[Ken Smith]

There is a picture of a Seitz bass with rounded lower corners towards the bottom of this page (http://www003.upp.so-net.ne.jp/ultrabassissimo/contents/myktrie.html). Again, probably a little late for what you are looking for. Of course, that page also show the famous "Bussetto" formerly belonging to Rainier Zepperitz.

As I've mentioned on that "other" bass site, I believe the rounded lower corners and f-hole designs on that instrument are derived from the viola d'amore family. Another thread here showed a bass by Woodbury and Burditt (http://www.nahrmannbass.com/bb/index.php?topic=15.0)that also shows some of these more exaggerated viola d'amore type features (for example, compare it to this viola d'amore (http://lh3.ggpht.com/HayleyKilroy/Rwn4f_TeWrI/AAAAAAAABkY/VGh5zgeYorM/DSC01845.JPG?imgmax=512)), but with standard f-holes. This bass makes me wonder if at least part of the inspiration for the rounded lower corners on many early American basses came from true viola d'amore style instruments, rather than simply Mittenwald basses with rounded lower corners. Here (http://www.baroqueinstruments.com/busch.htm)is a modern reproduction of a violone made in Nuremberg in 1640 with strong viola d'amore features as another comparison to the Woodbury and Burditt instrument.

Incidentally, while looking up some stuff on Woodbury and Burditt (and it seems their basses may have been actually made by William Conant (http://brattleborohistory.com/antiques-fossils/william-a-conants-violins.html)) I found this interesting notice from the "Fourth Exhibition of the Massachusetts Charitable Mechanic Association (http://books.google.com/books?id=8QwAAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA128&lpg=PA128&dq=woodbury+and+burditt+bass&source=bl&ots=f--zmlymO1&sig=tgtTNlSAOoItcjc-EzH490V0878&hl=en&ei=3GRbStLRL47asgPnxOCDCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5)" in 1844, mentioning a musicial instrument competition that included instruments from Woodbury and Burditt, Prescott, Dearborn and others. This notice (http://books.google.com/books?id=6wwAAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA2-PA93&dq=prescott+bass+viol&lr=) from their first exhibition in 1837 mentions basses and cellos by Prescott, the Dearborns, J.B. Allen, and Henry Prentiss. It also mentions that, regarding the basses and cellos:"They have been constructed upon such models of instruments of foreign manufacture, as the makers chanced to meet with; and, where these models have been departed from, the changes have all been made without reference to any other use of the instrument, than as mere accompaniment to the voices in common psalmody."


First off, I have copied the American text references and copied them to my History of the American Bass (http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?p=14464#post14464) thread for others to see there.

Now on the two basses from Japan you post I have seen them several times. I even went as far to ask Michael Krahmer of Pollmann face to face at the ISB to ask why he/they use the term 'Busseto/Bussetto/Busetto (pick your spelling). The maker G.M. del B. came from the town of Busseto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Busseto) in Italy. I even started a thread (http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=923&highlight=busseto) about the use of this name Busseto as well in the Forum. Michael told me it was because of this bass pictured that his father Gunther believes to be real.

In the Raymon Elgar books of the 1960's he revers to this as 'lower rounded corner' and nothing more. Somewhere this bass showed up and the old violin/lute maker G.M. del Busseto is suddenly a bass maker!

Look carefully at the upper and lower bouts of that bass? Klotz school from Mittenwald ALL the way in my eyes. I think that bass is an old German bass from Mittenwald or that area and has nothing to do with Italy. The form is nothing like anything ever seen from Italy and this maker is not known for making anything within the larger instruments.

So, in my mind, both the Seitz and this so called Bussetto Bass are from the same school of making with maybe a century or so between them.

Just my opinion.;)

[Michael Glynn]

First off, I have copied the American text references and copied them to my History of the American Bass (http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?p=14464#post14464) thread for others to see there.

Now on the two basses from Japan you post I have seen them several times. I even went as far to ask Michael Krahmer of Pollmann face to face at the ISB to ask why he/they use the term 'Busseto/Bussetto/Busetto (pick your spelling). The maker G.M. del B. came from the town of Busseto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Busseto) in Italy. I even started a thread (http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=923&highlight=busseto) about the use of this name Busseto as well in the Forum. Michael told me it was because of this bass pictured that his father Gunther believes to be real.

In the Raymon Elgar books of the 1960's he revers to this as 'lower rounded corner' and nothing more. Somewhere this bass showed up and the old violin/lute maker G.M. del Busseto is suddenly a bass maker!

Look carefully at the upper and lower bouts of that bass? Klotz school from Mittenwald ALL the way in my eyes. I think that bass is an old German bass from Mittenwald or that area and has nothing to do with Italy. The form is nothing like anything ever seen from Italy and this maker is not known for making anything within the larger instruments.

So, in my mind, both the Seitz and this so called Bussetto Bass are from the same school of making with maybe a century or so between them.

Just my opinion.;)

Thanks for posting those references to the other thread. I just ran across that stuff and thought it was interesting to hear what people of their own time thought of those instruments.

I'm with you on the origins of the supposed "Bussetto" bass. I just noticed that the Viola d'amore Society of America says the viola d'amore first appeared around Munich, Salzburg, and Bohemia and only later appeared in Italy. Looking at a random selection of violas d'amore, it seems the vast majority of the old makers had German names, which would seem to support the theory of the German origin and production of that type of instrument. And of course, Mittenwald is quite close to Munich and Salzburg, so it isn't surprising to see some of the design elements I would associate with the viola d'amore in instruments from Mittenwald.

It looks like in your conversation with Michael Krahmer you have helped confirm what I have long suspected--that the entire reason we call rounded lower corners "busseto" corners comes from the very suspect attribution of that one old bass.

Do you have any idea why that bass would have been attributed to Busseto in the first place? Does it share any features with his known instruments?

[Ken Smith]

Thanks for posting those references to the other thread. I just ran across that stuff and thought it was interesting to hear what people of their own time thought of those instruments.

I'm with you on the origins of the supposed "Bussetto" bass. I just noticed that the Viola d'amore Society of America says the viola d'amore first appeared around Munich, Salzburg, and Bohemia and only later appeared in Italy. Looking at a random selection of violas d'amore, it seems the vast majority of the old makers had German names, which would seem to support the theory of the German origin and production of that type of instrument. And of course, Mittenwald is quite close to Munich and Salzburg, so it isn't surprising to see some of the design elements I would associate with the viola d'amore in instruments from Mittenwald.

It looks like in your conversation with Michael Krahmer you have helped confirm what I have long suspected--that the entire reason we call rounded lower corners "busseto" corners comes from the very suspect attribution of that one old bass.

Do you have any idea why that bass would have been attributed to Busseto in the first place? Does it share any features with his known instruments?

I have no clue or answers to this or why or when. Just that when I look at that bass, the bouts and style without the lower corners or sound holes, I see the word GERMAN loud and clear. I have seen a few instruments in books by the real maker Busetto. These I recall were Violins. I will have to look again to see if there were any other small instruments. Looking though at Busetto's work, style, varnish, etc. I have no idea how his name was ever associated with this bass other than a bass that needed a name to fit a price point.

How many German and non-Italian Basses have we seen mis-named as Italians. Also, not ONLY Italian but the MOST famous names possible. Sounds like dealer tampering if you ask me.

I am not saying that this so called Busetto is not a great bass. Maybe it is the best sounding bass ever heard. It just doesn't make it Italian. Remember, Stainer who is from northwest Austria just below Germany reportedly trained with the Amati family. Mathias Klotz reportedly trained with Stainer and also a Fussen maker that was working in Italy. Then Klotz returned to Mittenwald and founded the school of Violin making there. That is some high class associations if you ask me. With those credentials I would expect his work and that of his followers to be of a high order if so desired. There are many appreciated Italian makers who had less of an association at their start so being German is not a crime, just a fact.

These big German basses from Mittenwald can stand up to just about any Italian Bass in a professional Orchestra from what I have heard and seen. Remember, those powerful sounding Orchestras of the 19th century were not Italian, English or French. They were from Germany and Central Europe. I once heard that if in the 18th or 19th century you wanted to play good music, you were told to go to Vienna! This is how many of the Italian Violins found their way to Vienna and how some of the makers learned about them. I have also read that the English learned a lot about Orchestra basses from visiting Orchestra and seeing the big German 4-stringers when the English were still playing on 3-strings.

;) .. I guess because there was no Internet back then or 'Ken's Corner', you had to wait for a visit from outside your area to learn of these things if not travel yourself to see it.

[Jeff Campbell]

I agree Ken. I sit between a fabulous Gagliano and Ventepane bass in the Rochester Philharmonic played by two wonderful and seasoned bassists and my old Mittenwald bass keeps pace with these two Italian instruments. Between the three of us in the back row of the section, we put out a lot of sound. And it's not a matter of volume but quality and depth of sound.
Like the Mittenwald basses discussed here, both these Italian basses are perfled in the front but NOT in the back. They are Gamba shape with flat backs. The Ventapane has a 44 inch string length and the player has the same bridge that came with the bass in the late 1960s when there were still gut strings on the bass. Both have been cut down.

[Ken Smith]

I agree Ken. I sit between a fabulous Gagliano and Ventepane bass in the Rochester Philharmonic played by two wonderful and seasoned bassists and my old Mittenwald bass keeps pace with these two Italian instruments. Between the three of us in the back row of the section, we put out a lot of sound. And it's not a matter of volume but quality and depth of sound.
Like the Mittenwald basses discussed here, both these Italian basses are perfled in the front but NOT in the back. They are Gamba shape with flat backs. The Ventapane has a 44 inch string length and the player has the same bridge that came with the bass in the late 1960s when there were still gut strings on the bass. Both have been cut down.

Nice story there Jeff. I wish more Orchestra Pros like yourself would come up and Post.

I think that it was not all that uncommon for makers to leave off the Purfling on the Back or in some cases like my Martini, front and back are without. The deep edges make one think there is something there but just a bevel line at the bead. Basses like these big Gambas whether Italian, Mittenwald or English have a lot in common. My Big Gamba is believed to be all 3 origins depending on who you ask and for good reason. It resembles a bit of each style. Who or where it was made will remain a mystery but for me, if the sound is there, then you can just sit back, relaxe and enjoy the ride..

[Joel Larsson]

The BIG old German Basses from Mittenwald (http://www.itcwebdesigns.com/tour_germany/violin1.htm) made 150 years ago and before, where are they?
Here's one just barely being old enough: http://www.kontrabass.ch/c_cms/baesse/alte-baesse/neuner-hornsteiner-1859.html

[Ken Smith]

Here's one just barely being old enough: http://www.kontrabass.ch/c_cms/baesse/alte-baesse/neuner-hornsteiner-1859.html

Yes, but that's the tail end of the era I was looking for. I think I have seen a few of those basses and that would be a good period because of the growth of the modern orchestras in which they needed them. The Basses I was looking for were the BIG ones that were even used as only 3-stringers just for the lower notes and were later converted to 4 and even cut down in size possibly.

There are MANY makers within each of these families of Neuner and Hornsteiner but there seems to have been a factory of sorts with that name way back into the 18th century from what I have read. Only a few of them were ever involved with basses as Violins was and always is the main focus of these shops.

Still, thanks for posting.

[Anselm Hauke]

so, what do you think about this one:
http://www.geba-online.de/marktplatzbilder.php4?bildquelle=platz&bildquelle_id=0&id=4616

[Ken Smith]

so, what do you think about this one:
http://www.geba-online.de/marktplatzbilder.php4?bildquelle=platz&bildquelle_id=0&id=4616

Mittenwald or maybe even Bozen-Bolzano/Alban-Albani school. Looks a bit Italian to me as well. This is the ad. What does it say, Fussen school bass?
Der fünf-saitige Kontrabaß,
Anfang des neunzehnten Jahrhunderts von einem unbekannten Meister, vermutlich im Füssener Raum gebaut, zeichnet sich durch seinen vollen, tragfähigen Klang und seine leichte Ansprache aus.
Seine ästhetische Form macht es zu einem Schmuckstück.
Das Instrument wurde 1994 von Bernhard Kort(Berlin)komplett restauriert und befindet sich in einem excelenten Zustand.
Es wurde seit 1993 durchgehend im Orchester der Deutschen Oper Berlin gespielt.
Auch im Bayreuther Festspielorchester, im Berliner Philharmonischen Orchester und in der Staatskapelle Dresden kam es zum Einsatz.
D-Mensur 106 cm, gesamte Höhe 187 cm
Preis: 38.500€

[Anselm Hauke]

Mittenwald or maybe even Bozen-Bolzano/Alban-Albani school. Looks a bit Italian to me as well. This is the ad. What does it say, Fussen school bass?

i says:
early 19th century
unknown maker, probably füssen school,
1994 complete restaurated at bernhard kort, berlin http://www.kort-basses.com/?set_language=de excellent condition
was played in berlin philharmonic, german opera berlin, bayreuth, stattskapelle dresden
scale length 106cm, 187 cm tall, 38.500€

i like it, but: what else could you get for 38.500?

[Ken Smith]

i says:
early 19th century
unknown maker, probably füssen school,
1994 complete restaurated at bernhard kort, berlin http://www.kort-basses.com/?set_language=de excellent condition
was played in berlin philharmonic, german opera berlin, bayreuth, stattskapelle dresden
scale length 106cm, 187 cm tall, 38.500€

i like it, but: what else could you get for 38.500?

That's getting close to $60k. Plenty but depending on the sound, it could be a great bass. I think that price is high for over here. If it were English or Italian then maybe but who knows.. Someone will buy it.

[Anselm Hauke]

That's getting close to $60k. Plenty but depending on the sound, it could be a great bass. I think that price is high for over here. If it were English or Italian then maybe but who knows.. Someone will buy it.

it looks like a good sounding bass...

i am not sure if the f-holes are typical füssen, but what is typical füssen...

[Ken Smith]

Well, I have one here, just in and will post pics soon. Estimated to be c.1860 Mittenwald. Also, I might see one tomorrow on a gig as one of the Subs might have one but I don't know who is all playing yet till I get there at the dress rehearsal.

[Jeff Campbell]

Hello,

Almost a year ago I made several posts about my old Mittenwald bass. Recently, I came across another bass that looks very much like mine. Just for interest, here are a couple of photos of both basses side by side - mine is on the left.

[Ken Smith]

Hello, Almost a year ago I made several posts about my old Mittenwald bass. Recently, I came across another bass that looks very much like mine. Just for interest, here are a couple of photos of both basses side by side - mine is on the left.
Jeff, your pics didn't load.

On mine that I mentioned, the page is up now (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/mittenwald/). I am not sure of the age exactly and also not sure if the Scroll is a later period as it doesn't match to my eye.

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/mittenwald/images/front-full.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/mittenwald/images/side-right-full.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/mittenwald/images/back-full.jpg

Here's the Scroll that I'm not so sure about;
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/mittenwald/images/big/scroll-right.jpg
and with an interesting 'Lyra' Button as well;
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/mittenwald/images/scroll-button.jpg

[Jeff Campbell]

OK...let's see if this works. When the basses a placed back to back, the difference in model size is clear. There are subtle differences in the varnish/color. To my eye, the ffs are the same or very similar. Even the bracing on the inside is the same (although the bass on the right the original two lower braces have been replaced with a single brace, there are marks where they 'used' to be). AND there is evidence in both basses that the cross braces have been 'let into' the inside linings.

[Ken Smith]

OK...let's see if this works. When the basses a placed back to back, the difference in model size is clear. There are subtle differences in the varnish/color. To my eye, the ffs are the same or very similar. Even the bracing on the inside is the same (although the bass on the right the original two lower braces have been replaced with a single brace, there are marks where they 'used' to be). AND there is evidence in both basses that the cross braces have been 'let into' the inside linings.

Nice pair of basses. How would you compare them in sound. Both of them seem to have Mittenwald Gears. One from the early 19th century as I have seen on several basses, one was a Seitz and the other I have seen on later turn of the century (19-20th) on a Neuner-Hornsteiner bass.

[Jeff Campbell]

Hi Ken,

I was curious about your Mittenwald bass. It has a bevel near the top of the back. Most Mittenwalds have a slopped back towards the neck block. How about the inside braces, are they 'let into' the linings? How many braces are in the back. Nice bass. Do have ideas about a possible maker? (Seitz, Venner, N & H? etc.)

I'll post a photo of the scrolls of the pair of Mittenwalds. They do not have the same type of gears nor are the scrolls similar in shape or size.

[Ken Smith]

Hi Ken,

I was curious about your Mittenwald bass. It has a bevel near the top of the back. Most Mittenwalds have a slopped back towards the neck block. How about the inside braces, are they 'let into' the linings? How many braces are in the back. Nice bass. Do have ideas about a possible maker? (Seitz, Venner, N & H? etc.)

I'll post a photo of the scrolls of the pair of Mittenwalds. They do not have the same type of gears nor are the scrolls similar in shape or size.

Well, I showed the pics to Arnold and he agrees with me all the way on this. Not all Mittenwald Basses are non-angled backs. I know there is something about this on another website discussing the difference between Neuner and Tarr but I don't see this as anything but German. The break on this is just at 2". Most English basses I have seen average 2.5-3" in break and from the middle or upper part of the bout. This one starts just below the middle making is less of an angle in the bend.

I doubt the Scroll is as old as the Bass and is a northern Scroll as well to me. Maybe Markneukirchen 100-120 years old. I have seen others like it and the gears a well. The Back shows signs of a Neck/Heel break in the past. This Scroll as well was once pinned through the button and then maybe a new neck grafted after that failed. The Bass sounds great and I can only assume it was heavily used because of its sound. It is one of the best German Basses I have ever played.

On the Linings, the blocks at the bottom bout are cut and the lining butted up against the notch, the same on both sides. The middle bout linings are flush, not inlaid as are the upper linings into the upper blocks. Only the lower back side bottom block are notched. One side it goes in and one was trimmed back.

There is a center crossbar 3" in width, a lower crossbar shaped like a bassbar, a middle crossbar shaped like a bassbar and an upper one covering the angle-break that is a flatter bar but rounded softly about 2" wide.

There are many repairs inside the back as you can see the numerous splits in the Birdseye. I am just now dropping some glue on a lower crack inside that has no visible repair to it. When the bass goes this Summer to Jeff Bollbach, I will have him put some linen over it and go over the whole bass. It looks like the repairs are several years old and may need a touch of fresh glue in a few spots. I don't think the bass needs to come apart at this time.

Jeff, if you hadn't asked me to look inside at the back construction I would have not seen that faint un-repaired crack. Thanks..;)

The shoulders of this Bass slope a bit more than some other Mittenwalds but then again, there were several shops and makers in the 19th century making basses and/or producing parts for them. The red varnish over the yellow under it is also common with Mittenwald basses.

Do have ideas about a possible maker? (Seitz, Venner, N & H? etc.) Venner? Never heard that name. did you mean Neuner or Baader?

The most famous names and families I know of that have produced basses are first the Klotz family of makers, the Neuners, the Hornsteiners, Seitz (also a supplier of Basses), the firm of Neuner-Hornsteiner and the J.A. Baader firm to name the most important ones I can think of. There is some overlapping of these names in their work periods and some marriages between them as well. Mittenwald was a huge center for Violin family instruments and some of what I have seen are shop-grade type instruments. Not necessarily factory made in a modern sense but old style bench factory/shop making and even cottage industry building going back to before 1700 when Mathias Klotz (Kloz) returned to Mittenwald and became the founder of that School of making.

What is my bass exactly and who made it when? Hey, tell me and we'll both know..:)

It sounds old and sweet. That's enough for me for now..

[Jeff Campbell]

Thanks Ken,

Very interesting. I heard the name Venner from an English bass luthier. He was helping me id my Mittenwald bass and said he had one coming into his shop that was very similar to mine made by Venner. On my bass, (the one with the plates on the scroll) there is very clear evidence that some of the inner bracing has been replaced. It is very obvious that someone along the way filled the spaces where the braces used to fit into the linings. I think the four braces. along with the center brace have been replaced. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/40196546@N07/3698833934/in/set-72157620999354851/) Photos I've seen in the Elgar book show a Neuner and Hornsteiner bass where the braces were 'let into' the linings - including the center brace. On my bass, you can see where the center brace used to fit under neath the corner blocks. The aforementioned English luthier sent me a photo of the inside of a N & H bass where it was clear that all the inside bracing was fit into the inside linings...My bass is so close to shape, size, etc. (even having the same small-cogged gears) that I'm fairly sure mine is from the same maker - I know that N & H put the label on the center brace and since mine has been replaced, it makes sense that may a reason that here is no label in my bass.

In terms of sound between the two, both are very deep and resonant; organ like if you will. My bass is a little more deep while the other bass is a little more sweet.

[Ken Smith]

Thanks Ken,

Very interesting. I heard the name Venner from an English bass luthier. He was helping me id my Mittenwald bass and said he had one coming into his shop that was very similar to mine made by Venner. On my bass, (the one with the plates on the scroll) there is very clear evidence that some of the inner bracing has been replaced. It is very obvious that someone along the way filled the spaces where the braces used to fit into the linings. I think the four braces. along with the center brace have been replaced. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/40196546@N07/3698833934/in/set-72157620999354851/) Photos I've seen in the Elgar book show a Neuner and Hornsteiner bass where the braces were 'let into' the linings - including the center brace. On my bass, you can see where the center brace used to fit under neath the corner blocks. The aforementioned English luthier sent me a photo of the inside of a N & H bass where it was clear that all the inside bracing was fit into the inside linings...My bass is so close to shape, size, etc. (even having the same small-cogged gears) that I'm fairly sure mine is from the same maker - I know that N & H put the label on the center brace and since mine has been replaced, it makes sense that may a reason that here is no label in my bass.

In terms of sound between the two, both are very deep and resonant; organ like if you will. My bass is a little more deep while the other bass is a little more sweet.

The Bass with the smaller Scroll looks like N&H. The Pics inside the bass looks Mittenwald. The Button on the Pegbox in the 2nd 'flicker' pic looks N&H as well. If that helps at all..

http://www.worldofbasses.de/Instrumente_04/Neuner-Hornsteiner/08-Neuner-scroll-back.jpghttp://www.worldofbasses.de/Instrumente_04/Neuner-Hornsteiner/09-Neuner-scroll-side-left.jpghttp://www.worldofbasses.de/Instrumente_04/Neuner-Hornsteiner/11-Neuner-label.jpg

From http://www.worldofbasses.de/Instrumente_04/instrumente_04.html

But sloped shoulders and wide flat linings.

Your Bass with the longer larger Scroll looks much older than the other bass by at least half a century. Just a guess.

[Jeff Campbell]

Hello Ken,

I've recently come across this instrument. The string length is very long (over 44 - notice the false nut.) The neck joint sits on top of the body. Inside there are five braces, one in the middle (for the sound post) about 3" or so, two for the upper and two for the lower. All the braces are let into the linings. The front is perfled and the back is not. Black strip running down the back. There is an extra turn in the vollute (sp?) Any thoughts? Perhaps this may be a N & H or Mittenwald bass?

[Jeff Campbell]

Oops, forgot to post the pic of the false nut

[Ken Smith]

Hello Ken,

I've recently come across this instrument. The string length is very long (over 44 - notice the false nut.) The neck joint sits on top of the body. Inside there are five braces, one in the middle (for the sound post) about 3" or so, two for the upper and two for the lower. All the braces are let into the linings. The front is perfled and the back is not. Black strip running down the back. There is an extra turn in the volute (sp?) Any thoughts? Perhaps this may be a N & H or Mittenwald bass?

I would say N&H School at the least. Also, J.A. Baader was working around the same period but the scroll button is similar to the N-H models.

I often wonder with the old talk of cottage industry along with big factories and some bass specialists if there was much subcontracting going on between Firms or actual makers. The Export business was booming from what I have read so the possibility exists I think. Must be a monster sound. Can you post all of the measurements maybe?

My Mittenwalder Bass (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/mittenwald/) is starting to puzzle me though. It has the angle break rather then the gentle sloped back, no center back strip, only 4 cross bars in total with one in the center/post position and one across the angle break, the lower bout wide like a full sized bass (28"), the middle bout (14.75") and upper bout (21") like a full 3/4 with a string length of a full 3/4 bass (41.75"). Most of these Mittenwald basses I have seen were uniform in sizes, widths and string lengths, not a hybrid like this one. Mainly I think it's the 28" bottom that puzzles me for its general size. That to me is more like the Northern English Basses of the Tarr school. Perhaps they offered an 'English model' back then in the mid 19th century to compete with the English! Possibly?
According to at least two sources, Mittenwald was making some basses for Tarr, possibly Neuner. Although my Bass is not English, it is more of an English model in design than it is the typical Mittenwald style but sounds like an old German Bass. The Top arch looks Stainerish but the shoulder slope seems almost like a solo bass as compared so some of the other monster Mittenwalders I have seen. Maybe Solo/Orchestra was the model they had in mind. What do you think?

[Ken Smith]

Oops, forgot to post the pic of the false nut

Nice. I made one as well to correct the D-heel and shorten the string length on this Italian bass.

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/loveri/restore-images/scr_fr.jpg

There are a few ways to do this but in the end, the results are almost the same.

[Jeff Campbell]

You've got me thinking...your original intention of this thread was to find the big old German that folks like Prescott or JB Allen used as a model type for their Yankee instruments. In looking at your Mittenwald bass, the size ratio between the smaller upper bouts and the oversized lower ones looks quite a bit like those used by Prescott. Do you see any similarities or am I way off base here. How does this bass sound? Big and thunderous? Sweet? Clear?
Deep? A couple of things are confusing: the angle break in the back and the golden-ish varnish are not typical of the other Mittenwald basses on this thread. How did you come to decide it was from Mittenwald? Also, in your last response, you cited the bass I posted as perhaps H&H. What is H&H. Did you mean Neuner and Hornsteiner (N&H), or is this a different firm/maker?

I have more photos of yet another bass I've come across which will follow in a day or two.

[Ken Smith]

You've got me thinking...your original intention of this thread was to find the big old German that folks like Prescott or JB Allen used as a model type for their Yankee instruments. In looking at your Mittenwald bass, the size ratio between the smaller upper bouts and the oversized lower ones looks quite a bit like those used by Prescott. Do you see any similarities or am I way off base here. How does this bass sound? Big and thunderous? Sweet? Clear?
Deep? A couple of things are confusing: the angle break in the back and the golden-ish varnish are not typical of the other Mittenwald basses on this thread. How did you come to decide it was from Mittenwald? Also, in your last response, you cited the bass I posted as perhaps H&H. What is H&H. Did you mean Neuner and Hornsteiner (N&H), or is this a different firm/maker?

I have more photos of yet another bass I've come across which will follow in a day or two.


Oops.. that was a typo. N&H. They letters are just above one another and was typing too fast, for me that is.. lol

On my Bass, the Scroll is NOT original to that bass. I see it as a later Markneukirchen style end of 19th, early 20th century, gears and all.

The bass itself is red over gold. It came in as a Mittenwald and that's what I think it is. Not necessarily a typical factory model but something more custom. Almost like a copy of a Tarr or Northern English bass.

This to me is nothing at all like a Prescott in its pattern at least not to my eye and nothing like the Yankee sound either. Sounds like good German. Punchy notes with short decay, almost no after ringing inside the bass and even sounding all over. If anything, I would reiterate an English copy in its overall style. The Basses with angle breaks from East Germany thru Prague and even Vienna are diffefent in many ways. The Northerm English copied in part the Germans and here it looks like that flavor. I have also seen another Birdseye maple Mittenwald bass not long ago but that one was much bigger and more typical German all around but with the upper angle break as well. I have heard that they were made both ways in Germany, with and without that angle.

Sound wise I have to say it's still coming. The Bass hasn't seen a Bow in years and it also needs some set-up work and a bit of gluing. Jeff Bollbach will get this when I'm done with my Jobs in mid Summer and make an Extension for it as well. I have the Eurosonics on it right now as that was the only regular 4-string set I had that was 'new' but is not my choice for this bass. It was just something to hear it with. I have a concert Saturday and two jazz tunes as well with a Symphony and I got the jazz part. Last week at the first full rehearsal the bass sounded great thru the amp as well as in the section with the bow. For sound and tone I would say medium power in the mids, sweet on top and shaking the floor a bit on the bottom. It needs a good endpin as well which I know will help the sound. Also, the soundpost felt a bit on the short side and I placed it a bit closer to the F-hole than I normally would to make it fit. I am sure it will sound much better after Jeff is done with it. Regardless, I like the bass as it is and enjoy playing it every chance I get. The bass 'feels' very old and mature as well. It just needs some TLC and some playing. This I can guarantee it will get!

[Jeff Campbell]

Here's yet another bass that may fit into the 'big bass' category. The shape is typical, the golden color reminds me of a Seitz bass I posted earlier (on page 1 of this thread). The machines on this bass are just like the one's on my big bass (and if you look close on the photo of the Seitz bass, it has the same machines as well).

I do agree that your Mittenwald bass is reminiscent of Tarr bass. In terms of my comment about your bass when compared to Yankee basses, I was only referring to the ratio between large lower bouts and the relatively smaller upper bouts I've seen on some Prescott basses.

[Ken Smith]

I do agree that your Mittenwald bass is reminiscent of Tarr bass. In terms of my comment about your bass when compared to Yankee basses, I was only referring to the ratio between large lower bouts and the relatively smaller upper bouts I've seen on some Prescott basses.

The upper bouts of Prescott Basses are usually wide and long. Some of them were cut down as mine surely was, upper and middle. It must have been way too big because after the Cut, it was still a 4/4 bass. Maybe it was a 5/4 before?

Then I looked at Eugene Wrights bass that looks all original and came to the conclusion that his upper bouts were very similar to my 'cut' upper bouts. Prescott must have changed the 4/4 model Busetto and Gamba basses to have smaller upper's for the players buying them. That I think is 'American' and not German as it was done to make it playable and not a copy. The only Copy part is copying his own cutting down which we can consider a learning curve.

Show me a single Prescott that looks like the proportions of my German bass (I think it's German) and I will reverse my opinion.

It is also written somewhere that Prescott copied an old English Viol for his Scroll idea and length. That is a huge pegbox for what only had 3 strings originally!

More please...:)

[Jeff Campbell]

Thanks Ken,

I am not an expert and I defer to your experience. I've seen a few Prescotts only so my vantage point is limited. Thanks for keeping me honest. I appreciate this forum where so much can be learned.

[Eric Rene Roy]

Here's yet another bass that may fit into the 'big bass' category. The shape is typical, the golden color reminds me of a Seitz bass I posted earlier (on page 1 of this thread). The machines on this bass are just like the one's on my big bass (and if you look close on the photo of the Seitz bass, it has the same machines as well).

I do agree that your Mittenwald bass is reminiscent of Tarr bass. In terms of my comment about your bass when compared to Yankee basses, I was only referring to the ratio between large lower bouts and the relatively smaller upper bouts I've seen on some Prescott basses.Cool bass Jeff...I have it's little sister here!

Ken, these brass plates are very unique (and original to the bass...so useful in identification)...and seeing as Jeff has two pictured, I have one, you have seen one...it's a shame we can't put a finger on who made these!

[Ken Smith]

Cool bass Jeff...I have it's little sister here!

Ken, these brass plates are very unique (and original to the bass...so useful in identification)...and seeing as Jeff has two pictured, I have one, you have seen one...it's a shame we can't put a finger on who made these!

I have seen versions of those on some English Basses and some German as well from Mittenwald. I am sure they were for sale just like the Baker gears were as well as the Mirecourt gears sold to 'Hawkes & Son' that they put on all of their German imports.

Eric, can you show the whole bass maybe and not just little pieces of it?

Also, that bass you have called a Gemunder on your site now is a German bass and possibly Mittenwald. Most of the Gemunder basses if not all of them from NY were German Imports. I have a copy of their old catalog page from 1892 in which is titled "Imported German Basses". The brothers who started in Mass. (senior) were out of the making by then and the sons/cousins of both parents running the firm and importing. Of course that would put that bass after 1892 when they first started the firm. I remember this bass when Gary first emailed me the pics of it.

On the brass plates, any maker or shop could have fitted them. I have seen old basses with these gears and I think most of them were on plates. Some looked original and some not as far as the plates under the gears go.

[Ken Smith]

I picked up my old Mittenwalder (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/mittenwald/) about a month ago from Jeff Bollbach with its new chromatic C-Extension. He also tightened up a few other things around the bass and the sound is quite impressive. The E string shakes the floor and it's not a huge bass, just a large 3/4 or small 7/8. I think the Birdseye maple back and ribs has something to do with the low end being so deep and powerful.

As soon as my son Mike can get into the shop and take some new pics I will be able to show the beautiful C-Extension he just made for it.

The shoulders and back design are quite a comfortable combination to get around as well.

I can only imagine now why we don't see more of these basses over here in America. The Europeans are holding on to them! Why? Because they work!!

[Ken Smith]

Ok, follow me here on this. I looked thru the ranks of the known 19th century makers of Mittenwald to identify the possible maker/shop of my Bass. Looking at dates alone, the mostly likely person was Ludwig Neuner or his firm that he took over in 1867, Neuner-Hornsteiner. These were my thoughts about a year ago.

There is little doubt that this is a Mittenwald production but the design is quite different from the average domestic product from this area.

I recently had my Georges Mougenot Bass restored and while comparing the FFs of both Basses side by side I noticed they were almost exactly the same. The Mittenwald being slightly longer but the all the curves as well as the eyes and tabs looked to be from the same pattern. Mougenot having worked with N.F. Vuillaume had access to the Vuillaume patterns as N.F. worked with and made Basses for his brother J.B. Vuillaume before moving to Brussels. This explains the Vuillaume FFs on the Mougenot. Ludwig Neuner, although trained by his father originally, had gone to Paris and worked for 6-7 years with Vuillaume. He also traveled to London briefly as well. This Bass has the Vuillaume FFs and an English Gamba style outline and Back bend. It is for these reasons that I make this attribution, as Ludwig Neuner is the only German of that period that worked and traveled to both France and England. The Bass is totally a Mittenwald production but shows also the Vuillaume FFs with the English Gamba pattern which is a modified German model so it's a full circle. The English copied the Germans and then the Germans copied the English with some French added which was taken from the Italians to begin with!

Reading more on Ludwig Neuner is also mention of having worked briefly in Vienna with the celebrated maker Gabriel Lembock. Ludwig Streicher played a Bass by Lembock. Vieneese Basses are well known for their friendly sloped shoulders over modest width bouts, unlike the slender Pear shaped Basses made in France and Germany of the late 19th century but rather fairly full dimensioned Basses with politely sloped shoulders.

So, putting the period of the Bass at about 1860 or so, Mittenwald in make, English style Back bend and lower Bout width, Vienna style upper Bout slope and Vuillaume pattern Strad model FFs, who is the most likely suspect? ... Ludwig Neuner!

"Attributed to" is an opinion rather than a proven fact, but I did my research and these are the results.

[Ken Smith]

I just read this on line so I thought it would be good to share. His name is quite famous but where he came from and what he did prior to earn his reputation is different depending on the author. This paragraph is on line at ricercare.com (http://www.ricercare.com/research/library/dictionary/n_contents.html) but is copied from the Henley book and is the most comprehensive information I have seen to date on him. Reading also from Jalovec makes the information on Neuner unanimous.

"NEUNER, LUDWIG
Most brilliant representative of the family. Born at Mittenwald, 1840. Trained in the workshop of his father Johann; worked with Andreas Engleder at Munich, also studied ’cello playing with Werner at the Conservatorium. Proceeded to Vienna where he was assistant to Gabriel Lembock; then spent six years under the guidance of J. B. Vuillaume at Paris; also continued his ’cello studies by taking lessons from Franchomme. The cleverness of his subsequent work must be entirely attributable to the impressions gathered from the masterpieces continually passing through the hands of the eminent Frenchman. Worked a few months in London; opened an establishment at Berlin, 1867; worked there with two workmen until 1883. Death of brother and father necessitated his return to Mittenwald, where he took over the control of “Neuner and Hornsteiner”. Had branch premises and workmen at Berlin and Innsbruck. Appointed maker to the Bavarian Royal Family. Recipient of various medals at Exhibitions throughout the world. Died 1897, after organising the firm in such a manner that 200 men were daily employed in coping with large orders from every country. An accomplished man, cultured conversationalist, etc. who could proudly boast of any acquaintance with Kaiser Wilhelm, Prince Leopold, and many of the celebrated virtuosi and composers of his country. Spent the last few years of life endeavouring to solve the secret of the varnish of the old Cremona masters. The firm produced all grades of stringed instruments from ten shillings upwards. “Solo Violins” and “Solo ’Cellos” were the personal work of Ludwig. Superior workmanship at the relatively small price of £15. Perfect modelling and replicating of the Messe Strad, or the Paganini Guarnerius, Amati, and Maggini. Finely wooded, richly varnished, and of splendid tone. Produced interesting copies of the Servais and Lübeck Strad ’cellos. Also made bows for artists."

The Bass I have (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/mittenwald/) just barely qualifies on the "Where are They?" in date as my estimate of c.1860 is the minimum age I was looking for, just hitting 150 years old now. On some instances the Bass looks over 200 years old but that's mainly because of the hard life it's had from constant use as well as the irregular Birdseye Maple wood used for the Back and Ribs. The Top is quite healthy for its age though. The Bass is very comfortable to play and is currenty the Bass I take out most since it's the closest in feel to my former Martini, just not quite the sound as this one is very 'German' sounding but 'old' German.

[Jeff Campbell]

Hello Ken,

I came across this bass and posted some pics on this thread a while ago, but I finally had a chance to take some measurements - this is a BIG bass.
The measurements are thus:

top bout - 21.5
middle bout 15.5
bottom bout 28.5
length of back 49
string length 44.5

Just for fun, I put it next to my big bass and it's interesting to see the two of them side by side.

[Ken Smith]

Which bass is which?

Ok, the reddish one is the big in and your bass is the brownish colored slightly smaller bass, right?

4/4 Bass; .................. My 3/4-7/8 Neuner, English model;
top bout - 21.5...................21.25"
middle bout - 15.5................14.75"
bottom bout - 28.5.............28"
length of back - 49...............45"
string length - 44.5...............41.75"

The two basses, yours and the 4/4 beast are typical Mittenwald style and look very similar in style. My Neuner is more of an English copy with only the construction being German but the model looking English. The upper and lower bouts are very close comparing the 4/4 to the Neuner but the size is way different with the Neuner having a normal length for today's playing or rather short for its time and the 4/4, just what it was made as. Typical 4/4 German. There are some older English basses like that as well from the few I have seen as they are copies of the Germans I think.

[Jeff Campbell]

It's funny to have you call mine the 'smaller' bass, because it's a very large instrument and from the looks of things, it was cut down and very well would have been the same size as the the big red one. What about the gears on the big one? Have you seen others like these? Someone said the red bass may be French but I see N&H or maybe Seitz - Mittenwald personified. On another note, will you be at the ISB this year?

[Ken Smith]

The red Bass is the same pattern as your bass. The neck is a dovetail sitting on top of the block. That is also 1000% German/Mittenwald style. Your bass is just about the exact same outline, corners, back and back center. Same school or shop but maybe not same period, maybe yes. NOTHING is French about either of the two basses. The Gears are 1000% German Gears as used on the Neuner & Hornsteiner Basses. The other ones like on your Bass I have seen on a Seitz bass and a few others. Sometimes not on plates. I had a set on my Big Gamba but there were not original to the Bass as mine was a 3-string bass originally. They were so heavy (iron, brass and steel I think) that I gave them away to Paul Biase.

What is it with people/dealers calling every nice German bass French? They seem to be totally clueless as to what the differences are. Maybe it's money driven motives or maybe just ignorance or blind ignorance for the money.

French Basses do not have necks set in like that and never have a black center strip in the back. Many German basses have German made individual gears. One player I worked with awhile back has a sloped shoulder bass with outer linings (German), gears like the red bass and purfling around the plates. I knew it was a Mittenwald bass and perhaps a Neuner-Hornsteiner. I asked him in a naive voice, "do you know what pedigree your bass is?".. "Yes, it's a Lupot" he said told to him by a dealer. Lupot was the top French maker ever c.1800, before Vuillaume's period. He was the French Strad and ranked with Panormo. Lupot never made a bass and that bass of his was made about 100 years after Lupot. Still, if it has a hint of French style like Gears or Purfling, sell is as a French Bass. lol

Not to rant but I saw one German bass, a Markneukirchen bass, late 19th century. It was similar to the above bass but roundback, German plate gears and purfling around the plates. Inside the bass was a very old sticker "made in Germany" curved around a small tag. The TP had the German makers name written under it BY the Dealer that fixed it and naext to the Germany sticker, the Dealers repair label, all plain as day. THAT same Dealer sold this bass as French with Papers even describing the German linings as Mirecourt and an Insurance appraisal as well. The German make of this bass could not be more clear plus the Sticker said Germany and that same dealer worte the Gearman makers name on the bass and STILL sold and appraised it as French. How Brash is that?

Anyway, I have a concert in a month, Shostakovich 5th, etc.. Trying to choose between the Mittenwald and the Hart as to which bass to use. Decisions decisions..

[Jeff Campbell]

We're playing Shosti 5 in the Rochester Phil this week - had a concert on Thursday night and one on Sat. I played my old dark bass and had a ball. I sit next to a very nice Gagliano played by Bob Zimmerman - we had a wonderful time playing this great music. And during the concert, not one person asked us who made our basses.

Have fun with Shostikovitch -

[Ken Smith]

We're playing Shosti 5 in the Rochester Phil this week - had a concert on Thursday night and one on Sat. I played my old dark bass and had a ball. I sit next to a very nice Gagliano played by Bob Zimmerman - we had a wonderful time playing this great music. And during the concert, not one person asked us who made our basses.

Have fun with Shostikovitch -

Ok, the 5th was great. I brought my Storioni cornerless to the first 2 rehearsals and then for the Friday night 'hurry thru traffic to get on stage in time' rehearsal, I brought the Mittenwald for safety reasons on stage. I was invited that night to play a duet as an encore with the Piano soloist from Aussie land doing Rhap/Blue and ran thru Horace Silver's 'The Preacher' on the break. When he first asked me if I knew the tune I told him I worked with Horace when I was only 17 in 1969 so the tune went well.;) On Saturday afternoon I came into the office and tested playing Jazz between the Mittenwald and the Storioni. Well, the Storioni 'won' from what I could hear by myself so I switched basses again.

At the dress rehearsal the Princ. Cellist asked "where's that other bass you had?". That's when I knew it made a difference. I had Belcanto's on both basses I think. Or, maybe has the 92 Starks on the Mittenwald. I have gone back and forth on that bass.

Yesterday with a friend at the shop (a Philly Bassist) we tested all of the top end basses including the Mittenwald in a blindfold test for Orchestra playing from inside a sound suppressed room and it beat out the Hart and Storioni for low end spread and power. Not by much but he thought it was the Storioni when guessing which bass was which. The main difference may have been the Strings as I have the Flexocor 92 Starks on the Mittenwald. I still have a couple E/C starks in my private stock. Most of the other basses had Belcantos. I think the Bel's are great but the Stark 92s are the darkest power strings I have tried for Orchestra. The extra tension makes them great for Jazz as well. This is mainly true for basses with strong Tops on them. My former Martini sounded great with those strings as well.

Hey, in that Shoti.5th we both played last season (separately), did you guys use the all down bows (mainly) in the 2nd moovement? We did, Russian style that I picked up from a YouTube of a USSR orchestra. Also, they played all 4s, no 5s or extensions so the played all of the lows up. We were about half n half up n down.

[Jeff Campbell]

Hi Ken,

Nice to hear about your Mittenwald bass. I'm glad you had a good concert with the Shos 5. It's been long enough now that I don't even remember what bowings we used. I always keep copies of our bass parts so I'll have to dig them out and see. I'm still having a nice time with my old bass. I have a pretty tall bridge w/o adjusters. I saw the Pollmann boys at the ISB in SF and asked them a few questions about N & H / Baader. They wanted to see photos of my bass and the other Mittenwald basses I've come across. I sent them a few but have not heard back yet. The next ISB will be here in Rochester at the Eastman School so I'm looking forward to it. It will keep us very busy from then to now. Already had lots of meetings/emails/phone calls, etc. One of these days I'd like to get to your shop and see/hear some of your basses.

Kind Regards,

Jeff

[Ken Smith]

Hi Ken,

Nice to hear about your Mittenwald bass. I'm glad you had a good concert with the Shos 5. It's been long enough now that I don't even remember what bowings we used. I always keep copies of our bass parts so I'll have to dig them out and see. I'm still having a nice time with my old bass. I have a pretty tall bridge w/o adjusters. I saw the Pollmann boys at the ISB in SF and asked them a few questions about N & H / Baader. They wanted to see photos of my bass and the other Mittenwald basses I've come across. I sent them a few but have not heard back yet. The next ISB will be here in Rochester at the Eastman School so I'm looking forward to it. It will keep us very busy from then to now. Already had lots of meetings/emails/phone calls, etc. One of these days I'd like to get to your shop and see/hear some of your basses.

Kind Regards,

Jeff

Now that is just about close enough to drive to.:cool:

I might make it, might.:confused:

It all depends on what Basses I have in stock to sell and how busy I am at the shop that month. In 2009 it was in PA and I had my own display there. Of the 6 basses I brought, only one of them are left. I sold 3 of the 4 English basses first, then the 2 Italians and have 1 English left from those 6, The Hart.

[nick weldon]

Here's my large old German - the stop is 43.75", the body length is 46.5", the width across the top bout is 21.625" and across the bottom bout 28.5". Bottom rib 8.75" deep.
The papers I received with the bass described it as Mittenwald, around 1820, but another luthier has recently disagreed, ( I think because of the scroll) and dates it later and not from Mittenwald.
Anyway, it's a fine old bass, which I love playing!
Any opinions gratefully received…
Nick

[Ken Smith]

Here's my large old German - the stop is 43.75", the body length is 46.5", the width across the top bout is 21.625" and across the bottom bout 28.5". Bottom rib 8.75" deep.
The papers I received with the bass described it as Mittenwald, around 1820, but another luthier has recently disagreed, ( I think because of the scroll) and dates it later and not from Mittenwald.
Anyway, it's a fine old bass, which I love playing!
Any opinions gratefully received…
Nick

First off Nick, it is hard to evaluate anything from just pictures on the Internet and these pics are not that good either. From what I have seen of Mittenwald basses, this one looks different. There are some that have that typical smaller upper bout with slightly sloped shoulders and a bigger wider bottom. Then, there are commercial basses made that look like all the rest of the Germans. Some Czech basses made near the German border look like this as well.

As far as the age goes, from the pics I will agree 19th century but 1820 would be hard to agree on from just these images. Looks like a nice bass but, that dark varnish was put over lighter brown varnish at some point from what I can see. That in itself makes it seem older than it might be.

If Mittenwald, it looks more like a commercially made Baader then anything from the Klotz-Hornsteiner-Neuner-Seitz-Reiger school. The Scroll may or may not be original to the body. Lots of bad things have happened to old basses and original heads do not always survive.

By the way, where are the Papers from, by whom?

[nick weldon]

Hi Ken, thanks for taking the time to look - the evaluation was from Thwaites, I think, a very well respected luthier here in the UK

[Ken Smith]

Hi Ken, thanks for taking the time to look - the evaluation was from Thwaites, I think, a very well respected luthier here in the UK

Thwaites is a shop that deals in all strings instruments and they have handled many great basses over the years. Like I said, from the pictures, it can go either way but I have seen at least one Mittenwald bass that looks similar to yours. Not all Mittenwald basses have a specific look. After all, they are German as well and most of all, German makers usually follow the Italian and/or the Tirol school in one way or another.

I have done a bit of business with Thwaites as well over the lase few years but thru personal meets here in my shop with Bill P.. Next time you are in there, give Bill my personal regards.

[Ken Smith]

I have seen this huge bass (116cm s.l., 45.66") on-line many times and it's listed as an old English bass played in the Finnish Radio Symphony. A few weeks ago I noticed the small ebony arrows inlaid in the upper gamba bout corners of the Top. The only maker I know of that does that is Josef Rieger of Mittenwald (19c.). Rufus Reid has a bass by him as well. This one has a lion head as well.

http://photography-on-the.net/gallery/G1_photos/photos/152-5298_CRW.jpghttp://photography-on-the.net/gallery/G1_photos/small/139-3932_CRW.jpg

[Gerry Grable]

Great looking instrument.
I can understand the lion's head, but why the arrows?

[Ken Smith]

Great looking instrument.
I can understand the lion's head, but why the arrows?

I don't know why but that maker put them in his basses. I have seen 3 or 4 of them like that. Maybe it was his personal trademark.

[Sebastian Nordstrom]

Hello folks. There has not been so much activity in this thread for a long time so maybe it's time to revive it.

To answer the question in the topic:
Well, one is in Copenhagen. I'm doing my masters here and for this weeks orchestra production, one of my class mates brought his work bass; 1830s Neuner. He's doing his trial year in the DR orchestra and the bass belongs to them. BIG busetto. The sound is not "in your face" but it literally shakes the floor. And when you go out in the hall, it is more and more present.

I think the label says "Johann" something "Neuner" 183something. It's super hard to get a decent photo but I will try. I'm also a horrible photographer.

[Sebastian Nordstrom]

Some more pictures. I don't know why some are upside down.

As I said, really tricky to get the label. We try not to handle each others basses so much at the moment, due to covid, otherwise I would have taken it out of the stand.

The bass has a little rosette under the fingerboard in the top, I also post a picture of that. And a photo of the basses next to it for size comparison. The first from the left is mine, since recently. Also an old mittenwald, but much smaller. It looks like a baby bass next to the neuner.

[Ken Smith]

The bass looks refinished and maybe the Top is new. I don't see the age there and the rosette?, never seen one on a German bass.

[Sebastian Nordstrom]

It might be refinished, I don't know. I agree that it is not the most charming brown.
If the top has been switched it would probably have been done a long time ago. I'm no expert but personally I think it is the original top. Is it a common thing to do, make a new top?
It's hard to capture with my not so good phone/bad photographic talent but it does look quite old when you get close, and look at the wear, texture (? maybe wrong word) and grain. The arching is very high. F-holes are nice I think, to bad I don't have a proper picture of the front.

About the rosette - I have only seen this on the internet, on super old italian basses. Maybe the "Johan" something "Nuener" who supposedly made this bass got inspired and decided to ad this feature?

[Ken Smith]

Well, usually that rosette is seen in a few small Maggini basses and old Viols. This is a big German bass. Totally out of character for that decoration. My guess is a new top as it doesn't have the wear and tear of an 1830s bass in my opinion.



New tops are made for basses that have accidents. I know one Panormo bass with a new/old top, a Strad violin with a new/old top, both mentioned were done shortly after they were made. Then I know a French bass that has a new top made and I had a bass that was new but the top was damaged in shipment so it got a new top from the same maker. So, new tops do happen when it seems the old one is too far damaged to repair or destroyed into splinters. Imagine that big bass taking a fall or the player falling on it for some reason. I have heard of that happening more than once.

[Sebastian Nordstrom]

It might be so I suppose. I will try to get som closer pictures next time I meet this bass!

Here is the same bass in action playing Brahms 2:
https://youtu.be/5MfuE50OrSk

No super good close-ups of the bass section, but for example at ca 4min and 7:35isch, the bass is a little more visible.

[Ken Smith]

Wow.. Nice.. The principal is a 4-string? Italian or English bass? Also I see mostly big 5s and one bass with Extension.. Nice mix. Great orchestra.. Which one is you?

[Sebastian Nordstrom]

They are great!

I will ask the principal, Joel Gonzales, what his bass is next time I meet him. He is one of the teachers here at our school. The player behind him in the back row, Michal Stadnicki, was principal for ca 30 years I think. I'm studying with him.

I have heard being able to play the low notes, below E, is more or less mandatory in DR Symphony and at the royal danish opera orchestra. So you basically have to play 5-strings or extension. Unless you are principal, then you can play whatever you like. But maybe this is common practice worldwide? I know that in germany and austria, 5-strings is what you always play in orchestra. In Sweden, were I'm from, I think it varies from orchestra to orchestra.

I'm not a professional orchestral musician (yet!:rolleyes:) but I hoping to elbow myself into that world. I have been freelancing as jazzer (and a bunch of other stuff) for about a decade, orchestral music is relatively new for me and I'm in my 1st year of masters. I try to work as hard as I can and trust that it will lead to something.

[Ken Smith]

Ok, great.. keep at it.. It will come..

[Sebastian Nordstrom]

While on the topic of large, german, old basses, maybe these are interesting. They belong to the opera orchestra, I believe. I "stole" the pictures from the principals instagram. I don't know him, but I don't think it's a horrible crime, the profile is public.

First is a "Schnabel" second is a Leopold Widhalm. Never heard either name before. The first bass' label-picture, are all danish repair labels. Second is manufacturer and year(1795?) and a old repair label from Mannheim.

(I'm currently sick and have to isolate myself so this is how prevent dying of boredom...)

[Ken Smith]

Very interesting old German basses. Thanks for posting these.