What makes a double bass "professional" grade?

[Vince Mendoza]

Is it the fact that it's made out of solid (rather than ply) wood, but then not all "solid" basses are necessarily "professional" grade too?

Is it the fact that it's made of woods with fancier grain patterns and higher quality parts, but then many recent Chinese and Romanian basses already have all these yet they are still considered "student" grade?

Is it the fact that it's a pedigreed instrument, so that the suggestion is that the legendary Italian, French, German and English luthiers made no "student" grade instruments?

Or is it the fact that it's been played by a professional bassist, so that a plywood instrument could potentially be considered "professional" grade too?

V.

:confused:

[Richard Prowse]

Vince,
Normally there is a sticker in the bass bag that tells you whether the bass is professional or non professional. Fortunately the Bureau of Double Basses (BDB) can issue a new sticker if a double bass behaves itself and promises never to be plywood again.

[Eric Hochberg]

Sound, construction, materials and playability have to be there to suit a professional who relies on an instrument to make a living. Poor sound, no one wants you; poor construction and/or materials, the bass might not work the next day; poor playability, you won't be able to do the job day after day.

Regarding plywood, there are plenty of pros in bluegrass, rockabilly and country who love the sound and durability of a good ply bass. If the imported basses you mention are well made with good seasoned wood, sound good and play well, there's no reason that they wouldn't be accepted by a pro player.

[Ken Smith]

Is it the fact that it's made out of solid (rather than ply) wood, but then not all "solid" basses are necessarily "professional" grade too?

Is it the fact that it's made of woods with fancier grain patterns and higher quality parts, but then many recent Chinese and Romanian basses already have all these yet they are still considered "student" grade?

Is it the fact that it's a pedigreed instrument, so that the suggestion is that the legendary Italian, French, German and English luthiers made no "student" grade instruments?

Or is it the fact that it's been played by a professional bassist, so that a plywood instrument could potentially be considered "professional" grade too?

V.

:confused:

Vince, I started to reply to this last night and then I had connection problems at home and had to wait to post which is now. I was hoping to be the first because you bring up some good points which in themselves needs some definitions so let's list them one by one for clarity.

Is it the fact that it's made out of solid (rather than ply) wood, but then not all "solid" basses are necessarily "professional" grade too?
Solid to me is a confusing word like in Guitars, solid body or hollow body like an acoustic. I would prefer to use the term 'carved' rather than 'laminated'.
This way we are all on the same page. There are many levels of both carved as well as laminated but in the long run, carved is superior at least for the most part. A high grade laminated might easily be better than a cheap junk carved bass but lets leave the 'cheap' level of products out of this for the sake of normality.

Is it the fact that it's made of woods with fancier grain patterns and higher quality parts, but then many recent Chinese and Romanian basses already have all these yet they are still considered "student" grade?
Student grade often applies to the average affordability of a player. What is affordable today was not available 20 - 50 years ago as some of us here can attest to. Carved Germanic style shop basses were once considered the student basses along with their lower priced laminates or hybrids but now these are older basses with higher values to them. They have been replaced by Eastern Europe and Asian manufacturing. At one time for Guitars, Japan was the cheap place followed by Korea and Taiwan. Now the cheaper makes come from India, Vietnam, Indonesia and China to name a few. Japan is quite expensive by comparison now. Korea has taking a beating from being under cut by China. In the Violin world, Germany has taking a beating from China and Romania as well to be general about it.

A student in a music College might be using an Italian bass and a student in public school might be playing a Kay! It is all relevant in that respect.

Is it the fact that it's a pedigreed instrument, so that the suggestion is that the legendary Italian, French, German and English luthiers made no "student" grade instruments?
What they did then is far different than what they do now. A Juzek Bass that is considered a high grade jazz instrument now was a student bass when I was in High School. All levels of Juzeks from the $200 model carved to the $900 master Art models were used in the NYC Schools. I personally played on them so I know. That was the prices for them in the 1960s. In France, there were 1,000s of basses made for students that are now used in professional Symphony Orchestras and jazz players worldwide.

Simply, there are more bass players today than ever and there are just not enough old Italian and English Basses to go around (the most valuable usually) so the old French and German student or economic models of 50-100 years ago have now moved up into professional use.

Or is it the fact that it's been played by a professional bassist, so that a plywood instrument could potentially be considered "professional" grade too?
I can tell you a story about this that is in a way funny and other stories of fact that are just fact. Your profile names mainly jazz players (http://www.smithbassforums.com/member.php?u=530) who I happen to have known a few of them and their basses vary in grade and value as well. I will not get too deep into that but I did work side by side with Ron Carter once in a session for a movie date, 4 basses. I had an old Italian bass currently valued at about $200k. He had a plain-Jane Juzek worth less than the Sartory Bow I was using. That's what he plays and that's what I played. The tone acoustically was night and day between the tow basses but then again, he was not an Orchestra player by profession so that bass suited him and still does for the type of work he did.
The other story is when I went on one time to sub at Radio City in around 1975 and it was a real Orchestra. I was in for the principal and the 2nd bass player used only his Kay over there. I had my old Italian. We made about the same money per show I believe but in the 2nd player who was there for over 40 years already having been an original member since it opened (http://events.greenwichtime.com/new-york-ny/venues/show/11540-radio-city-music-hall). He was happy at that point with his Kay for the Pit gig but I felt proud playing my old Italian.

A bass with a name, almost any bass will sell for more over the exact bass without a name. People just like knowing what it is. The price can easily be double on some basses or on others just slightly different with or without the name.

In choosing a bass, try getting one that meets your needs and budget combined. Don't go too cheap on it where you end up throwing your money away. Get advice from someone who knows more than you about it so the purchase is worth the price regardless of what you buy.

To answer your question on fancy woods this would apply to cost on newer basses mainly and some German or French models as well. With the Italian and English basses, they go for the quality and pedigree first, wood is last. Many of them have the plainest wood with knots and visual defects as well as scars from being worm eaten. This does not hurt the sale all that much with these old pedigrees.

[Vince Mendoza]

Ken,

As much as most everything you said was very enlightening especially for a novice like me, what really stood out was your remark on how numerous instruments that started out as "student" grade are now being played by professional classical and jazz bassists. That, I found, was most revealing and eye-opening.

Thanks very much,
V.

[Ken Smith]

Ken,

As much as most everything you said was very enlightening especially for a novice like me, what really stood out was your remark on how numerous instruments that started out as "student" grade are now being played by professional classical and jazz bassists. That, I found, was most revealing and eye-opening.

Thanks very much,
V.

You are very welcome and might I add this next story here. About 30 something years ago I was in a bass shop in NYC. Both me and the Luthier were current active professional bassists. He had several fine Italian basses and at least one fine French bass while I had one Italian and at least one French bass as well. He had in his hand for repair a German shop Bass possibly labeled Juzek. These were the student basses of our youth days. He remarked pointing to the bass, "these are the Italian basses of tomorrow"!

Currently I have a nice Shen bass made of European woods made in 1996 or '97 ( 3/4 Gemunder & Sons copy model. I have seen 2 original models by that shop and played one recently, c.1920). It was one of two made for the 1997 summer Namm show where I bought it. A few years later when I took it to one of my favorite luthiers in NY (Arnold) for a Fingerboard dressing (it's really my Son's bass now) he remarked, "I have never seen a Shen like this before". Even though made in China, it is a well made bass and a professional bass as well. I had its twin in a 7/8ths as well made a few years after (Arnold made the same remark about seeing this one as well) and one conductor remarked to me "I love the sound of your bass". There were 4 basses in the section. Mine was the only new one, the other 3 being 50, 50 and 100 years old. One other player in the section remarked after hearing and seeing the bass, "that's a NEW Bass?".

So, German, Chinese or Italian. Good hands in bass making are good hands and that goes for the rest of the world too.

I had an Orchestra Concert last year at the Kimmel Center in the Hall next to where the Philly Orchestra plays.. wow.. lol.. so, I asked my Son who lived near the Kimmel to bring me his Shen to borrow for the concert and it was delivered to me back stage. The other two Basses being a Czech and an old German Bass. I went Chinese that night, bass wise that is, lol. A few weeks later, a DVD was given to all the players of the event. I can hear my bass loud and clear on the recording over the Orchestra without any problem.

Now, don't get me wrong here. I love the Shen bass as it was the first bass I bought when I started to play again 10 years after I had retired from working in NY BUT, I do actually play some high grade Italian and English Basses for the most part. I talk about my basses here in this thread (http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=1140) along with others discussing their bass needs as well.

When I was in High School, I bought a set of books (3) by Raymond Elgar. 'Introduction to the Double Bass', 'More About the Double Bass' and Looking at the Double Bass'. There were no bass magazines then. No internet. Dial telephones without touch tone. No cell phones and many families still had only a single black and white television. Look what we have now at our fingertips! Knowledge-wise on the DB, we are still infants for the most part as far as the study of the basses and playing them as well. At least though we have plenty of sources in which to learn from.