Amp volume question

[Don Edge]

Is there an amp head that has the ability to turn the volume up in order to bring the level inside the unit up so the bass sound will improve yet have a volume level adjust that will enable you to still adjust it so it is not playing at max or the extreme level the amp is actually set at? I know this is strange question but there is a reason.

Don

[Tim Bishop]

Is there an amp head that has the ability to turn the volume up in order to bring the level inside the unit up so the bass sound will improve yet have a volume level adjust that will enable you to still adjust it so it is not playing at max or the extreme level the amp is actually set at? I know this is strange question but there is a reason.

DonWhat's the reason?

[Ken Smith]

Is there an amp head that has the ability to turn the volume up in order to bring the level inside the unit up so the bass sound will improve yet have a volume level adjust that will enable you to still adjust it so it is not playing at max or the extreme level the amp is actually set at? I know this is strange question but there is a reason.

Don

If you are referring to master volume and gain volume I have learned that the Master MUST be higher than the Gain or the sound will be distorted. If Master is on 7, then put gain on 5. Raise the master before you raise the gain. Equal at the most between the two but keep the gain under the master volume for the most part for the cleanest sound.

[Tim Bishop]

Or, if you are trying to control spikes in volume while you are playing, compression is an option and there are heads out there that include compression in the chain. Some better than others.

[Dave Martin]

If you are referring to master volume and gain volume I have learned that the Master MUST be higher than the Gain or the sound will be distorted. If Master is on 7, then put gain on 5. Raise the master before you raise the gain. Equal at the most between the two but keep the gain under the master volume for the most part for the cleanest sound.

Yes and no, Ken - your approach is correct if the desired sound is clean - and this isn'l always the case. Personally, I tend to run the master volume (on my SWR and Eden amps somewhere around 75% (and the imput level around 20% or 25% so that I can keep the sound as clean as possible. But for some gigs, I'll reverse that so that the input stage is at 75% or 80% and the master volume is at 20% or 25% so that the bass sound is pretty distorted but the actual stage volume is still under control. (I also either turn down or disable the tweeter that some idiot designer decided to add to most bass amps, but that's another discussion.)

Lesser amounts of distortion are achieved by balancing input and master volumes.

[Tim Bishop]

Yes and no, Ken - your approach is correct if the desired sound is clean - and this isn'l always the case. Personally, I tend to run the master volume (on my SWR and Eden amps somewhere around 75% (and the imput level around 20% or 25% so that I can keep the sound as clean as possible. But for some gigs, I'll reverse that so that the input stage is at 75% or 80% and the master volume is at 20% or 25% so that the bass sound is pretty distorted but the actual stage volume is still under control. (I also either turn down or disable the tweeter that some idiot designer decided to add to most bass amps, but that's another discussion.)

Lesser amounts of distortion are achieved by balancing input and master volumes.Dave, are you using a "passive" or "active" bass with these settings?

[Don Edge]

The reason is the church I play in is stating I am too loud. Well the Fender Rumble 100, although not the best amp, sounds best at 3/4 volume with my bass at least past 1/2 volume. They had me so low the other day I mine as well be playing my old washburn with dead strings. I was trying to get the sound, attack, brightness, tone, without having to have the volume at that level. I turned the amp down and bass WAY up. It still sounds good but the volume issues are still there. I realize there are optimum levels that speakers really should be to sound the best. I don't think they do.

[Tim Bishop]

The reason is the church I play in is stating I am too loud. Well the Fender Rumble 100, although not the best amp, sounds best at 3/4 volume with my bass at least past 1/2 volume. They had me so low the other day I mine as well be playing my old washburn with dead strings. I was trying to get the sound, attack, brightness, tone, without having to have the volume at that level. I turned the amp down and bass WAY up. It still sounds good but the volume issues are still there. I realize there are optimum levels that speakers really should be to sound the best. I don't think they do.Don, this is typical for most churches. Will need MUCH more information from you.

Tell us about your overall church worship team set-up:

1. What are the instruments, vocals, sound system, being used?
2. If the church has a good sound system, are you fortunate enough to have someone qualified running that sound system?
3. How big is the room?
4. Are you using monitors and if so, what kind/type?
5. If you have a drummer, is the drummer playing an acoustic or electronic set?
6. If you have a drummer and he is playing an acoustic set, is he behind a shield?
7. What size bass speaker are you using in your bass amp?
8. Does your bass amp have an XLR Output?
9. Etc.

[Don Edge]

The instruments are drums (acoustic), guitar (acoustic or electric), and/or piano. I am using a 15 inch speaker with a tweater (nonadjustable). THe drummer is behind a shield but they may a) enclose him completely, which I don't like, or b) mike the drums so he can hit them less hard. He just put acrylic heads on them so they are louder. (BTW he player with George Straight and Waylon Jeninngs). He wants to be enclosed. My amp does an XLR output and I use it to go to the house. The board and system is all wrong and a sound guy is coming in. The church has 27 foot high ceilings, wood floors, a rock wall where the instruments and improperly installed sound deadening material on the side walls. It is a great echo chamber when no one is there. They are fixing the material on the sides. They are using peavey monitors (std looking and size). I am not in the monitors since I am plenty loud. The three of us sound really good togther and click. We just have to get the sound straight. Hope this helps. I was going to get an Eden WT 550 head and a decent cab but think that is serious overkill for that church. We have four house speakers on the ceiling that are chained. The sound engineer will be unchaining them for independent volume controls. That is also a volume issue. That is one reason I can not be in the house, I over power everything. Amp recommendations would be nice. I have a tendency to by good stuff and keep it, ie: my Pedulla. I do like versatility.

Don

[Tim Bishop]

The instruments are drums (acoustic), guitar (acoustic or electric), and/or piano. I am using a 15 inch speaker with a tweater (nonadjustable). THe drummer is behind a shield but they may a) enclose him completely, which I don't like, or b) mike the drums so he can hit them less hard. He just put acrylic heads on them so they are louder. (BTW he player with George Straight and Waylon Jeninngs). He wants to be enclosed.
DonHaving the drums enclosed and properly mic'd will certainly help control the stage volume, which should help you and others adjust accordingly. Under the current circumstances, this is a good thing.

[Tim Bishop]

I am using a 15 inch speaker with a tweater (nonadjustable).
DonThe 15 may be too much for your current set-up challenges. 12's and/or 10's could help you hear yourself better on stage. Have you tried getting your bass mix through your monitors? Once the drummer is completely enclosed, you should give this a try; at least in the interim, until your overall sound upgrades occur.

[Don Edge]

Wonderful...I got the 15 because I have tried 12's before and the B string just won't cut it. I haven't tried good 12s or 10s. That is one reason I was thinking of getting an amp head with a separate cab. I thought I may have better control with the head and say a 210 cab. ??

[Tim Bishop]

My amp does an XLR output and I use it to go to the house. The board and system is all wrong and a sound guy is coming in. The church has 27 foot high ceilings, wood floors, a rock wall where the instruments and improperly installed sound deadening material on the side walls. It is a great echo chamber when no one is there. They are fixing the material on the sides.
DonThis is a problem. Once it is addressed, you'll be on your way to better sound control.

[Tim Bishop]

I was going to get an Eden WT 550 head and a decent cab but think that is serious overkill for that church.

DonThe WT-550 is a great head and I would highly recommend getting it or the WT-405. As far as cabs: Look at Eden's 210XLT, 210XST, 212XLT, and 410XLT's. These cabinets are VERY efficient with SPL ratings in the 106db range. Stick with 8 ohm cabs as you will have more coverage options down the road with the WT-550's ability to run at 2 ohms. Don't worry about "too loud" with this set-up. You can NEVER have enough headroom in your bass rig set-up. Think of it as having all the control you will need for most any room. It's not always about volume given the right set-up.

[Tim Bishop]

Wonderful...I got the 15 because I have tried 12's before and the B string just won't cut it. I haven't tried good 12s or 10s. That is one reason I was thinking of getting an amp head with a separate cab. I thought I may have better control with the head and say a 210 cab. ??The Eden 210XST is designed with low-end in mind. With the WT-5550, the combination of the 210XST and 212XLT (8 ohm cabs) is likely all you would need for coverage in most rooms.

[Tim Bishop]

Wonderful...I got the 15 because I have tried 12's before and the B string just won't cut it. I haven't tried good 12s or 10s. That is one reason I was thinking of getting an amp head with a separate cab. I thought I may have better control with the head and say a 210 cab. ??Also, it's not just the speaker size, but the quality of the speaker and cabinet design. There's alot of junk out there. It pays to spend the extra $'s and get quality equipment.

[Don Edge]

12's and/or 10's could help you hear yourself better on stage.

Funny you should say that, I could not hear myself very well at all last Sunday. I looked at the WT-405, on-line, and read the entire "amp" thread. I haven't heard of anyone using the WT-405, at that I can find. Is it a good head and will it give good tone with plenty of options? I don't see much difference over the 550. Maybe some tweaking ability. What do they normally go for?

[Don Edge]

So with the WT-405 or 550 and the XLT or XST I could play at lower volumes and get the sound, or better sound, than I am currently getting?

[Tim Bishop]

12's and/or 10's could help you hear yourself better on stage.

Funny you should say that, I could not hear myself very well at all last Sunday. I looked at the WT-405, on-line, and read the entire "amp" thread. I haven't heard of anyone using the WT-405, at that I can find. Is it a good head and will it give good tone with plenty of options? I don't see much difference over the 550. Maybe some tweaking ability. What do they normally go for?Under your current circumstances, I totally understand why you are having trouble hearing yourself.

I have both the 550 and 405. Both heads are great. If I chose between the two, I'd go with the 405. Why? There are more options on the 405 (including a studio quality compressor) and two inputs. Both the 550 and 405 will run at 2 ohms and are close in output level.

Here's a link. Go check them out.

http://www.eden-electronics.com/products/amps/index.aspx

[Tim Bishop]

;)So with the WT-405 or 550 and the XLT or XST I could play at lower volumes and get the sound, or better sound, than I am currently getting?Yes. You still have all the other sounds issues within the church that are being addressed. But at a minimum, you will be way ahead of where you are now. ;)

[Tim Bishop]

I don't see much difference over the 550. Maybe some tweaking ability. What do they normally go for? Check out the followin link for more detail on these amps.

http://www.eden-electronics.com/products/amps/index.aspx

Once you've decided what you want, shop wisely, you don't have to pay retail price for these amps. When you get to that point, let me know.

[Don Edge]

Is the 405 you own like the one on the site or is it an older model before the changes they made?

[Dave Martin]

I can think of two other issues that should be addressed - the first is that the sound that Don likes might simply be a bit too loud for the situation. There's a level at which the amp starts moving some air - and if that point is both where Don likes the sound AND is too loud for the room, then the issue can't really be fixed unless he finds an amp that gives him the sound he likes quietly.

The other issue - and one that's easily fixed - is that if Don is standing up and the amp is right behind him on the floor, he might not be hearing the volume that is the source of the complaints. The easy fix for this is to put the amp up on a chair or stool so that it's pointing directly at his head.

[Tim Bishop]

Is the 405 you own like the one on the site or is it an older model before the changes they made?Yes, it's like the one you see on the site. ;)

[Tim Bishop]

Don, BTW - has your church considered going to an AVIOM Set-up with everyone on in-ear monitors?

[Don Edge]

I actually did buy an amp stand to get it off the floor. The vibration through the stage was terrible and sounded as bad. I do think the amp does not move enough air at the lower volumes to produce adequate "quality" sound. Others on the Fender forum have also recommended the same volume settings I discovered for optimum sound. It may be a deficiency of the equipment or just what you get for $300. I am standing right in front of it so I am hearing the volume. It isn't a problem to me. I am also standing next to the drums. The last church voiced the same issue but I had no control over the 18 inch subs in the house system. I did use a 15 and 18 cab for fill (connected). I also stood directly in front of those. They actually sounded pretty good. The 15 combo was popping so the cab linked to it helped the combo out. I would really like to hear what an Eden rig sounds like. I heard an Ampeg combo once and didn't like it but I assume the Eden stuff we are discussing is above that. Of the 12XLT or 10XLT, if you could only get one right now, which should it be with the WT-405 head?

[Don Edge]

Don, BTW - has your church considered going to an AVIOM Set-up with everyone on in-ear monitors?

I discussed about doing this with the drummer. It may be a good idea for all. At least for the drummer and me. I will suggest it to see the reactions and their opinions. The sound engineer will be coming maybe this Saturday. I do agree with you (at least I think you are agreeing) that sometimes you have to do what it takes. We will all be there when he is there. I wish I had the Eden gear for him to set-up.

[Tim Bishop]

I would really like to hear what an Eden rig sounds like. I heard an Ampeg combo once and didn't like it but I assume the Eden stuff we are discussing is above that. Of the 12XLT or 10XLT, if you could only get one right now, which should it be with the WT-405 head?Go with the Eden rig we've been discussing. If I had to choose, and could only get one cab "right now", to use with the WT-405, I would choose the 210XST(8).

Remember, stay with the 8 ohm cabinets and give yourself the opportunity to add-on later should the need ever arise. You may or may not need the added coverage for what you are currently doing, but know that you could! With the WT-550 or WT-405, you could push up to 4 8-ohm cabinets with no problem.

[Tim Bishop]

I wish I had the Eden gear for him to set-up.What part of Texas are you located?

[Don Edge]

What part of Texas are you located?

I am North of San Antonio. I called around and found a price of $900 plus tax for the WT-405. That was the lowest. It was at Sam Ash Music.

[Tim Bishop]

I am North of San Antonio. I called around and found a price of $900 plus tax for the WT-405. That was the lowest. It was at Sam Ash Music.Is the amp new in the box?

BTW - Have you tried Bass Emporium in Austin? They carry Eden and have a great selection of Eden amps and cabinets. If you are interested, call first and see if they have what we've discussed. If so, it might be worth the drive to go there (with your bass) and try it out.

[Tim Bishop]

Here's the link to Bass Emporium.

http://www.bassemporium.com/

Looks like they may have, in stock, what we've been discussing. Maybe they can work you a great package deal.

[Dave Martin]

I do think the amp does not move enough air at the lower volumes to produce adequate "quality" sound. I dunno, Don - I've used large amps like the SVT I used on my last fly date, medium sized amps (My raggedy old SWR Super Redhead, the Eden Metro that's in my garage and a 4x10 Ampeg and head that lives in my studio), and small amps (I have a 35 watt B15 in the studio and I'm trying out the 1x12 150 watt Fender Bassman TV 12). I can get a smile producing sound from all of them (Though the Metro, for some reason is more problematic).

Over the years, I've played through a bunch of venue or rental company supplied amps that were small combo amps - the little SWR Working Man 10, a bunch of different Fender amps in the 100-200 watt range, even the occasional guitar amp (Some bluegrass promoters don't appear to know the difference between guitar and bass amps - or they don't care). They can all be made to work.

Day in and day out, I hear my basses most often through a pair of studio speakers with 6.5 inch woofers - or through headphones. Moving air shouldn't be a necessity - unless what you think of as a 'quality sound' is linked to the way the bass sound fills the room.

Can you describe what you want to hear from your amp? How do you want to hear your bass in relation to the drum volume?

[Don Edge]

Here's the link to Bass Emporium.

http://www.bassemporium.com/

Looks like they may have, in stock, what we've been discussing. Maybe they can work you a great package deal.

I did call them and have been to their store. They were more but did not talk about a package deal.

Sound I like/looking for in relation to drums and me: I like punchy full bass with a good bottom. The Fender rumble does have a decent sound. Don't get me wrong. It just sounds somewhat muddy in the low registers and has to be turned up to get the punchy full good bottom bass sound. I do not play the bass by turning up the rig or bass and barely touching the strings. I am farely rough. This may have been a problem with some of the lesser quality 10 or 12 inch speakers. The sound tends to come out exploding thus popping the inferior speaker causing me to go with the 15s. With the Eden set-up, I may have to change, somewhat, how I play. This would not be an issue if I could get the same sound I am looking for at lower volumes but with good quality.

Does this make sense?

[Don Edge]

I also like the bass to be about the same level in loudness as the drums. Depending on the song, of course, this can change. All in all the bass should be slightly louder than the drums. This is my opinions but I am not on the board or in the audience. I only know what I want from the bass.

[Don Edge]

Here's the link to Bass Emporium.

http://www.bassemporium.com/

Looks like they may have, in stock, what we've been discussing. Maybe they can work you a great package deal.

What about the WT-405 and the 210XST neo? How would that combo work?

[Tim Bishop]

I did call them and have been to their store. They were more but did not talk about a package deal.

Sound I like/looking for in relation to drums and me: I like punchy full bass with a good bottom. The Fender rumble does have a decent sound. Don't get me wrong. It just sounds somewhat muddy in the low registers and has to be turned up to get the punchy full good bottom bass sound. I do not play the bass by turning up the rig or bass and barely touching the strings. I am farely rough. This may have been a problem with some of the lesser quality 10 or 12 inch speakers. The sound tends to come out exploding thus popping the inferior speaker causing me to go with the 15s. With the Eden set-up, I may have to change, somewhat, how I play. This would not be an issue if I could get the same sound I am looking for at lower volumes but with good quality.

Does this make sense?Well, the 15' (depending on maker and design of cab) is designed to hit the lower range (30 - 2k Hz) and hopefully somewhere in the 103 SPL range. The 10's and 12's you reference: Sounds like you either pushed them beyond what they were rated or maybe you were overdriving the amp with your bass. Several possibilities here.

There are endless possibilities as to getting you where you need to be, soundwise. I would encourage you to pursue a better bass rig/amp set-up vs. what you have. In the end, you have to be satisfied with your set-up and sound, outside of all the varying and subjective advice you may receive; including mine. All I can do is answer your questions and offer advice based on my experience.

[Tim Bishop]

I also like the bass to be about the same level in loudness as the drums. Depending on the song, of course, this can change. All in all the bass should be slightly louder than the drums. This is my opinions but I am not on the board or in the audience. I only know what I want from the bass.You wouldn't want to overpower the drummer, but accentuate equally with the kick; without burying him in the mix. You can listen to many well and professionally mixed tunes and hear how well the bass and kick are mixed.

[Tim Bishop]

What about the WT-405 and the 210XST neo? How would that combo work?Oh yeah. That would be a nice beginning! :)

[Don Edge]

I found out it is a 4 ohm cab. They were discounting the 8 ohm cabs pretty good. So what is better for where I am playing, the XST or XLT, if only one is going to be used? I found them at Sam Ash Music on-line cheaper at 8 ohm. Bassemporium was all about how loud you could play. That is why they liked the 4 ohm.

[Don Edge]

There are endless possibilities as to getting you where you need to be, soundwise. I would encourage you to pursue a better bass set-up vs. what you have. In the end, you have to be satisfied with your set-up and sound, outside of all the varying and subjective advice you may receive, including mine. All I can do is answer your questions and offer advice based on my experience.

True, I can honestly say that I don't think it is my bass but my set-up. Everything I have ever used in the churches has been trash but I made it work and it sounded good once I was done. Last Sunday I adjusted the entire time I was playing because it never sounded right.

[Tim Bishop]

I found out it is a 4 ohm cab. They were discounting the 8 ohm cabs pretty good. So what is better for where I am playing, the XST or XLT, if only one is going to be used? I found them at Sam Ash Music on-line cheaper at 8 ohm. Bassemporium was all about how loud you could play. That is why they liked the 4 ohm.I would start with the 210XST(8) based on what you've shared thus far. The 210XST will provide incredible tight low-end, great mid response, and clear/crisp highs (30hz-14khz; 103 SPL; 500W power handling). What's not to like about that?

The 4 ohm cabinet WILL pull more power from the amp, this is true. HOWEVER, that does not mean you will have more coverage. There is a difference. This is why I suggest staying with 8 ohm cabinets.

[Don Edge]

The 210XST will provide incredible tight low-end, great mid response, and clear/crisp highs (30-14k). The 4 ohm cabinet will pull more power from the amp. HOWEVER, that does not mean you will have more coverage. There is a difference. This is why I suggest staying with 8 ohm cabinets. I would start with the 210XST(8) based on what you've shared thus far.
That is what I thought. I will stay with the 8 ohm. I really need to go somewhere and play this thing so I can hear it. I need to take a trip. The wife gave me the ok for the head and one cab. That is a good start. Thanks for the help, advice and sharing. It took a good part of your day. Thanks to you, also, Dave. It will be interesting to hear what my bass sounds like through this.

Don

[Tim Bishop]

That is what I thought. I will stay with the 8 ohm. I really need to go somewhere and play this thing so I can hear it. I need to take a trip. The wife gave me the ok for the head and one cab. That is a good start. Thanks for the help, advice and sharing. It took a good part of your day. Thanks to you, also, Dave. It will be interesting to hear what my bass sounds like through this.

DonNot a problem and your welcome. Keep us posted. And yes, take your bass (with fresh strings) with you when you try out that set-up. I think you will be impressed. ;)

[Tim Bishop]

That is what I thought. I will stay with the 8 ohm. I really need to go somewhere and play this thing so I can hear it. I need to take a trip. The wife gave me the ok for the head and one cab. That is a good start. Thanks for the help, advice and sharing. It took a good part of your day. Thanks to you, also, Dave. It will be interesting to hear what my bass sounds like through this.

DonOne more thing about the 4 ohm cabinets. I'm not knocking them; they serve a purpose and are fine. I'm just ensuring you know that you do recognize better coverage potential sticking with the 8 ohm cabs.

For example:

4 - 8 ohm cabs: 2 ohm load on amp.
2 - 8 ohm cabs: 4 ohm load on amp.
2 - 4 ohm cabs: 2 ohm load on amp.

There are other variations of the above set-ups, however, just make certain you know what your amp can handle. You don't want to burn an amp up by using the wrong speaker configuration. And, obviously, the room size, with or without FOH support, will determine which set-up will best meet your needs in the end.

Again, either the WT-405 or WT-550 will handle a load down to 2 ohms with no problem.

[Don Edge]

Found a store doing closeouts. Trying to make a deal now.

[Tim Bishop]

Found a store doing closeouts. Trying to make a deal now.Great! Let us know what you decide to go with or if you have any other questions.

[Don Edge]

Is $1600 for the WT-405 and 210XST and good price. The WT-405 I found out is a display. They have two and both are displays, not new in-box. Should I jump on this?

[Tim Bishop]

Is $1600 for the WT-405 and 210XST and good price. The WT-405 I found out is a display. They have two and both are displays, not new in-box. Should I jump on this?
Well, it's not a great price considering these are floor/display models. That's only about 30% off of list: Typical discount in this case.

A few questions:

1. Who are you buying from?
2. What's are the dates on the back of the amp heads?
3. Will you get the factory warranty on both head and cabinet (I believe it's 2 years on warranty)?
4. Is the cabinet new or also a display model?

I would try and work the price down a bit. Maybe offer them $1,200. out the door. Particularly if the amp and cab are both floor/display models with full warranty. You just don't know what kind of use or mis-use has occured with this equipment.

[Don Edge]

The cab is new in-box. What kind of date am I looking for? I will be going there tomorrow to look at it and play it. I will be playing a floor model cab. I will try to work the price some more. I agree with you. They told me they can't sell the Eden stuff because it is too high end. Tim, sending you PM.

[Tim Bishop]

The cab is new in-box. What kind of date am I looking for? I will be going there tomorrow to look at it and play it. I will be playing a floor model cab. I will try to work the price some more. I agree with you. They told me they can't sell the Eden stuff because it is too high end. Tim, sending you PM.
There is a date written on the back of each head. This indicates when the head was built.

[Don Edge]

[/indent]There is a date written on the back of each head. This indicates when the head was built.

I will look at it. I suspect it will not be too recent since they are both on close out. I was told people in NY look at computers to see what has been there and then decide what to closeout. This sounds to me as if they have been there a while.

[Tim Bishop]

The cab is new in-box. What kind of date am I looking for? I will be going there tomorrow to look at it and play it. I will be playing a floor model cab. I will try to work the price some more. I agree with you. They told me they can't sell the Eden stuff because it is too high end. Tim, sending you PM.




I will look at it. I suspect it will not be too recent since they are both on close out. I was told people in NY look at computers to see what has been there and then decide what to closeout. This sounds to me as if they have been there a while.Well, then they should also be willing to deal. $1,600.00 is too much. I think you can do better.

[Don Edge]

Then in that case...no deal by them, no buy by me. Maybe we can discuss some other options later, if they won't deal. I know there are other options, that are not quite as expensive. I can stick with cab but maybe change the head.

[Tim Bishop]

Then in that case...no deal by them, no buy by me. Maybe we can discuss some other options later, if they won't deal. I know there are other options, that are not quite as expensive. I can stick with cab but maybe change the head.Well, if they don't deal, there are others that will. I would encourage you to stay with that set-up as a set.