When does an "old" bass become a "new" bass.

[Jeremy Darrow]

Over the long lifespan of antique instruments it's not unusual for integral parts to be replaced due to damage or for updates, like neck grafts. I'm curious if there is a consensus regarding when a bass that was made by one maker ceases to really be the original and becomes another bass. One that should not be referred to by the original makers name. For example, I think a replaced rib or two is perfectly reasonable, likewise for a neck graft. But once a bass has been re-topped, I have a hard time considering it the same bass it was before the repair.

What do the experts say? Thanks for reading.

Jeremy

[Ken Smith]

Over the long lifespan of antique instruments it's not unusual for integral parts to be replaced due to damage or for updates, like neck grafts. I'm curious if there is a consensus regarding when a bass that was made by one maker ceases to really be the original and becomes another bass. One that should not be referred to by the original makers name. For example, I think a replaced rib or two is perfectly reasonable, likewise for a neck graft. But once a bass has been re-topped, I have a hard time considering it the same bass it was before the repair.

What do the experts say? Thanks for reading.

Jeremy

I think the Top is #1 followed by the Back and then the Varnish. The Ribs less important as is the shoulder cuts made on a good number of old Italian and some English Basses as well as other schools. The Scroll is a big part of the value for originality but not the sound. The Varnish is important for the value but in many cases, not as big a deal as made out to be as many many old basses had the varnish replaced a century ago or more. This includes Strads and the like in violins. Varnish gets worn off and touched up or replaced. A great sounding pedigree instrument will suffer less in value loss than one sold on pedigree alone. My opinion here. Still, I prefer original varnish if at all possible. Original varnish does not however sell the bass. Sound and playability does.

Here's a good and personal experience (or two). I have a very old Blockless Tyrolean bass in need of restoration. I consulted 3 Lutheirs on this bass. The Top is sunk. The Bass needs a Neck block, Back repairs, Rib repairs and a Scroll repair with Neck graft.

Luthier 1 and 3 said they would take the job and keep the bass 100% original with the exception of adding a needed neck block and neck graft. They would also repair the damaged scroll with its own wood taking from the discarded Heel portion. Luthier #2 said the for the cost of the Top repair he would just make a new Top. Also, rather then grafting a Neck and repairing the Scroll which already has an old repair to the pegbox he would just put on a new one-piece German Neck/Scroll on the bass and save me some money.

My opinion: How many basses have you seen for sale in USA and in Europe advertised on-line with new tops and backs? How long or how many years have these new old basses been waiting for a buyer? I once saw an Amati violin listed for sale but the Top and Scroll was replaced in the 19th century. So, what did Amati make? The Back and Ribs? I would call that maker X from the 19th century with an older Amati back and ribs, not a full fledged/listed Amati.

I will spend more on a full restoration on this Tirol Bass my way but will have more in return when it is done. Also, when it goes to market I wont have to make excuses about a replaced Top or Scroll.

Also, I had and sold a Loveri Bass that was cut all around from a Cello shaped bass to a Pear shaped model. The Top and Back was all re-purfled and the Ribs were fully replaced. The Bass was from 1873 and the repairs/cut from 1937. This was a beautiful bass. One that I could live with if I had to. It sold for maybe half the amount it would of if the shape and ribs were original. The Varnish on the Scroll, Back and Top were original but touched up after the cut some 70 years ago. The Ribs were varnished when made but well matched. So well matched I thought all of the bass was re-varnished until closer inspection, much closer.

If the Top is original, I think its an old repaired bass. If the Top is replaced, then you basically have a new bass with old wood around it.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Until recently, the restorer's craft had not advanced to the point where any part of an instrument can be saved. Replacing top and back plates was common in the case of a heavily damaged part. Many, many fiddles can be found now with questionable parts. These days you can easily exceed the value of an instrument in restoration costs. When a bass is shop-made and its value is not particularly high, you make different decisions than you would with a hand-made master instrument. You make a judgment about the potential value vs. repair costs. And in some cases, the original parts are so badly made, or the material so poor, or the condition so terrible, or the original part long-gone, that there is no alternative. Personally, I believe that a commercial shop bass that has been re-topped by a master maker has gained in value.

[Jeremy Darrow]

Thanks, Ken and Arnold, for your thoughtful responses.

[Ken Smith]

Until recently, the restorer's craft had not advanced to the point where any part of an instrument can be saved. Replacing top and back plates was common in the case of a heavily damaged part. Many, many fiddles can be found now with questionable parts. These days you can easily exceed the value of an instrument in restoration costs. When a bass is shop-made and its value is not particularly high, you make different decisions than you would with a hand-made master instrument. You make a judgment about the potential value vs. repair costs. And in some cases, the original parts are so badly made, or the material so poor, or the condition so terrible, or the original part long-gone, that there is no alternative. Personally, I believe that a commercial shop bass that has been re-topped by a master maker has gained in value.

On the Tyrolean bass I mentioned the reason I bought the bass was for its very sweet 'old' sound. With 're-topping' how long will I need to wait till that old sweet sound comes back or will it?

[Arnold Schnitzer]

On the Tyrolean bass I mentioned the reason I bought the bass was for its very sweet 'old' sound. With 're-topping' how long will I need to wait till that old sweet sound comes back or will it?In a dark room you probably could not tell the difference.:eek:

[Tomas Bouda]

what if you had to save an old bass which hadn't been played in 200 years, and had moss growing all over the top? you'd have to replace the spongy, decayed wood right?

[Ken Smith]

what if you had to save an old bass which hadn't been played in 200 years, and had moss growing all over the top? you'd have to replace the spongy, decayed wood right?

spongy, decayed wood?

Never seen that. Have you? Not played in 200 years? I have had basses not played from 50-100 years in my hands but never saw anything spongy or decayed about it. Just falling apart.

Maybe if the bass was left in the woods or a muddy basement,, maybe but still, I have never heard of spongy, decayed wood on an old bass.