J B Vuillaume

[Martin Sheridan]

I have only seen one J B Vuillaume double bass, but I've got to believe that some of the luthiers who read this forum must have seen and worked on a few. A friend of mine has a Bernadel that is a copy of the bass Vuillaume is usually associated with. Vuillaume came across a Bergonzi bass made in Cremona that was cello shaped. He extended the back and top to give it sloping shoulders ( by grafting wood). On the back he left the original button and made a new one at the top of the extension of the back. Although I think he made other basses prior to this he is generally assocated with this model where he imitated the double button. I have seen four or five Mirecourt factory basses that are copies and Roger Millant said that Vuillaume actually had his brother make these basses for him in Mirecourt. The Mirecourt factory basses generally have a rather bold red varnish that is typical of a lot of the instruments that came out of there. The Vuillaume I saw had a lovely medium brown or amber varnish.

About ten years ago a musician told me that Vuillaume graduated the tops of his basses to 6mm all over. Can anyone confirm this?
Does anyone else have any photos or information on these basses.
I'm going to use the Bernadel because I have access to it, but I might be able to get in touch with the owner of the Vuillaume to check to see if the measurements are indeed the same.

I haven't decided yet if I want to imitate the double button.

[Ken Smith]

I have seen only one Vuillaume. It was nearly identical to a George Gemunder that I have seen and played. I also know a Derazey Bass that is a Vuillaume model as it was Derazey who also made Basses for JB. The brother you refer to of JB is Nicholas, correct? N.F. Vuillaume moved to Brussels (Bruxelles) who later employed G. Mougenot of whom I have a Bass (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Vuillaume/Vuillaume.html) made the same year he took over the Shop of NF Vuillaume in Belgium. This bass I have looks just like a Vuillaume as well. On the Bernadel mention, which one is it, father or one of the sons? I also once owned a beautiful Bass by Gustave Bernadel c.1859. The Shoulders of all the Bernadel's I have seen are slightly more sloped than those of the Claudot's and Jacquet's as well as the makers of Vuillaume.

I do not know for sure if Mougenot was ever a maker for Vuillaume either directly or thru N.F but the model is nearly the same. On the graduations, I have never heard that 6mm# of Vuillaume but did hear that of Panormo. Perhaps if true, Vuillaume followed Panormo on the gauging.

The general complaints about these French models but not all of them are that the Shoulders are hard to get over, the string lengths often long, the 'stop' is long and the sound is often nasal as compared to other large basses. 'That French sound' is often spoken from people listening or playing many of these basses. Then again, 'that Italian sound' that English sound' and 'that German sound' is often mentioned once the players know the origin of the bass. Maybe they think it's just something to say to sound smart or maybe in some cases the generic national sound they hear is true.

I would love to see pictures of both this Vuillaume and the Bernadel you speak of. In the Elgar book there are two Bernadel Pere' basses listed. One one of them (p.139) you can see with a magnifier that the upper back has a purfled design like the factory basses with Pfretzschner and Morelli labels have along with some other German productions. I suspect that bass to be German and not French. Perhaps just one more error that Elgar has published.

[Brian Glassman]

http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/masc/?URL=http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/clientbooklineCIMU/toolkit/p_requests/default-collection-musee.htm

I saw a supposed Vuillaume double bass here; go to photos and search Vuillaume
[/URL]

LégendeExposition Vuillaume : contrebasse, Jean-Baptiste Vuillaume, 1860; alto, Jean-Baptiste Vuillaume, 1861; violon, Jean-Baptiste Vuillaume, 1863; violon dit ″le faisan doré″, Jean-Baptiste Vuillaume, 1863; le quatuor ″des évangélistes″, Jean-Baptiste Vuillaume, 1863; face; autre collection

PhotographeFessy, GeorgesDescriptionektachrome, couleur0244644Exemplaires

Localisation Cote Documentation du Musée 23098
[URL="http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/NoticesDetaillees.asp?iNotice=66&ldebut=61&EIDSIM=CMIM000023098&DISPLAYMENU=&TYPERECHERCHE=PHOTHEQUE#"]http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/simclient/consultation/binaries/image.asp?INSTANCE=MULTIMEDIA&eidmpa=CMIM000023098&HEIGHT=300&WIDTH=300 (http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/NoticesDetaillees.asp?iNotice=66&ldebut=61&EIDSIM=CMIM000023098&DISPLAYMENU=&TYPERECHERCHE=PHOTHEQUE#)

[Ken Smith]

Interesting Vuillaume. The FFs with exception to the slant look just like the Mougenot. Perhaps he used the pattern from NF Vuillaume who you mentioned made Basses for him before moving just north to Belgium.

Another thing of interest is that I was told but one so called authority that Vuillaume never made a 3-string Bass. The Octobass is a 3 but this bass as well is 3-string too. The one I say as well as the Derazey, Gemunder and Mougenot were are 4-string from the start.

Maybe Vuillaume made both and my contact was incorrect.

[Ken Smith]

http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/masc/?URL=http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/clientbooklineCIMU/toolkit/p_requests/default-collection-musee.htm

I saw a supposed Vuillaume double bass here; go to photos and search Vuillaume


LégendeExposition Vuillaume : contrebasse, Jean-Baptiste Vuillaume, 1860; alto, Jean-Baptiste Vuillaume, 1861; violon, Jean-Baptiste Vuillaume, 1863; violon dit ″le faisan doré″, Jean-Baptiste Vuillaume, 1863; le quatuor ″des évangélistes″, Jean-Baptiste Vuillaume, 1863; face; autre collection

PhotographeFessy, GeorgesDescriptionektachrome, couleur0244644Exemplaires

Localisation Cote Documentation du Musée 23098
http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/simclient/consultation/binaries/image.asp?INSTANCE=MULTIMEDIA&eidmpa=CMIM000023098&HEIGHT=300&WIDTH=300 (http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/NoticesDetaillees.asp?iNotice=66&ldebut=61&EIDSIM=CMIM000023098&DISPLAYMENU=&TYPERECHERCHE=PHOTHEQUE#)

The Bass in this picture looks 100% English with an English Scroll. What do they say it is? If it's connected to Vuillaume I can tell you that his good friend was JF Lott Jnr who only made one Bass for a quartet according to the Withers shop where he worked. That Bass could be a Lott Snr as he made basses for many shops in his time.

[Brian Glassman]

The museum says it's a JB Vuillaume. The Octobass is in the same museum a few feet away.

[Ken Smith]

The museum says it's a JB Vuillaume. The Octobass is in the same museum a few feet away.

Which bass? The one with the red varnish and painted back 3-string or the golden varnish English looking bass above? I didn't see the English Bass on that website, only here.

[Ken Smith]

http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/simclient/consultation/binaries/image.asp?INSTANCE=MULTIMEDIA&eidmpa=CMIM000023099&HEIGHT=300&WIDTH=300

From the Back it looks 110% English to me.

My Theory? Well since it is believed for the most part that Vuillaume farmed out the Bass work and the fact that JF Lott Jnr. was his good friend I would say that this one was made in London and possibly by Lott Jnr or Snr. If 1860, Jnr. If 1850, either as the father died in 1853, Jnr. in 1871. Lott Snr. was famed for his DB's even in his own time in London.

[Anselm Hauke]

i remember reading an article about lott and vuillaume (regarding their correspondence/biograpghy/something else i can´t remember) that described vuillaumes visits in london and their trading with instruments (partially in the white).
so i would not be surprised if there is some confusion about who really made and who lacquerd/stamped/labeled which bass ...

[Martin Sheridan]

I don't know which Bernadel made this bass. It was ID'd by a very well know dealer in the southwest. To me it looks like the factory copies I've seen.
There's a picture of a Bergonzi cello shaped bass in Cremonese Double Basses by Duane Rosengard, and there might be a picture of the Bergonzi that Vuillaume reworked?
The Vuillaume I saw looked similar to the pictures above; a nice amber varnish (not all of Vuillaume's varnishes are as succesful) and it had the double button. The outline looks just like the pics of your bass.

The owner of this bass keeps saying she'd like to find something smaller, but that's the problem with many large basses including Panormo.

I have a 3/4 double bass that someone ID'd as an early Vuillaume and said he played on one like it in Russia. It has a nice amber oil varnish but no label. There's a shop in England (Contrabasse) showing a picture of a bass they attribute to Vuillaumes workshop that looks nearly identical.

Vuillaume is such an important maker, you'd think we'd know more about his basses.

[Ken Smith]

I don't know which Bernadel made this bass. It was ID'd by a very well know dealer in the southwest. To me it looks like the factory copies I've seen.
There's a picture of a Bergonzi cello shaped bass in Cremonese Double Basses by Duane Rosengard, and there might be a picture of the Bergonzi that Vuillaume reworked?
The Vuillaume I saw looked similar to the pictures above; a nice amber varnish (not all of Vuillaume's varnishes are as succesful) and it had the double button. The outline looks just like the pics of your bass.

The owner of this bass keeps saying she'd like to find something smaller, but that's the problem with many large basses including Panormo.

I have a 3/4 double bass that someone ID'd as an early Vuillaume and said he played on one like it in Russia. It has a nice amber oil varnish but no label. There's a shop in England (Contrabasse) showing a picture of a bass they attribute to Vuillaumes workshop that looks nearly identical.

Vuillaume is such an important maker, you'd think we'd know more about his basses.

The Bergonzi on pgs 114-117 in Duane's book I think is the one modified by Vuillaume. As far as us knowing more about Vuillaume's basses because he was an important maker look at his bows! He didn't make them either so why would a busy man like he was bother woth anything other than the Violin or an occassional Cello? What we do believe about him is that he didn't make the basses. The Lott looking Vuillaume was more than likely made in sold 'in the white' from London and varnished by 'someone' in Vuillaume's shop. On the Bass in the CB shop with the sloped shoulders called a Vuillaume, I highly doubt that bass, especially the period in which it's marked as. Just my opinion. It looks more to me like a later Mirecourt school bass.

[Martin Sheridan]

Ken,
Is that Vuillaume/Bergonzi a round back or flat?

[Ken Smith]

Ken,
Is that Vuillaume/Bergonzi a round back or flat?

From the pictures I would say Flat back of Poplar.

[Joel Larsson]

I saw a Vuillaume labelled bass (I think the year was 1850) at the university in Stockholm some months ago. Smallish. Distinctly slender shoulders, looked a lot like this Mirecourt bass: http://www.luthiercontrebasse.fr/images/anciens/tournier_grande.jpg
The wood on the V was much more exquisite, though; tightly flamed maple in the back. I seem to remember that this was actually a thin veneer over some supposedly less extravagant wood, but don't call me on this one; I easily imagine things. :) I don't remember the exact colours of the varnish nor do I know how to describe them correctly, but it was darker than this Mirecourt bass, maybe - maybe! - with a slight hint of dark red or burgundy.

Sound was sweet on the top string, but it didn't carry a lot of power. Then again, size wasn't on its side, and neither are the facts that it is a rarely used institutional instrument that also wasn't exactly in top condition. I don't think it was an exceptional instrument to begin with, but a lesser restoration and fine tuning and it would become a good bass for its size.

[Ken Smith]

I saw a Vuillaume labelled bass (I think the year was 1850) at the university in Stockholm some months ago. Smallish. Distinctly slender shoulders, looked a lot like this Mirecourt bass: http://www.luthiercontrebasse.fr/images/anciens/tournier_grande.jpg
The wood on the V was much more exquisite, though; tightly flamed maple in the back. I seem to remember that this was actually a thin veneer over some supposedly less extravagant wood, but don't call me on this one; I easily imagine things. :) I don't remember the exact colours of the varnish nor do I know how to describe them correctly, but it was darker than this Mirecourt bass, maybe - maybe! - with a slight hint of dark red or burgundy.

Sound was sweet on the top string, but it didn't carry a lot of power. Then again, size wasn't on its side, and neither are the facts that it is a rarely used institutional instrument that also wasn't exactly in top condition. I don't think it was an exceptional instrument to begin with, but a lesser restoration and fine tuning and it would become a good bass for its size.

Veneer in 1850? hey, don't laugh. The highly figured burled maple Ribs on my Storioni (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Storioni/Storioni.htm) are veneered over Spruce. From the inside of the bass, it all looks original and that was was old in 1850!

[Martin Sheridan]

The picture of that bass is somewhat similar to mine except that mine doesn't have the bend in the back and is a round back. Mine has nice flame, the workmanship is excellent and the varnish is a nice amber color oil. The scroll is carved very much in the Italian manner and it dates to about 1840.
When I first got it the top had many names written on the inside top (it was apart at the time). The only one I remember is Ernst Von Liebisch(sp), Viena (Vien). At the time I hadn't yet started working on basses and the Vuilluame name wouldn't have meant anything to me. When I had it restored the restorer removed all the names from the top because someone had applied a heavy wash of hide glue. When he removed the glue the names disappeared also; very sad because they were the history of every place the bass had been. I think the Von Liebisch repair was from 1858. Vuillaume often signed the inside tops of his instruments. He had a signature that would have made John Hancock proud.

[Ken Smith]

The picture of that bass is somewhat similar to mine except that mine doesn't have the bend in the back and is a round back. Mine has nice flame, the workmanship is excellent and the varnish is a nice amber color oil. The scroll is carved very much in the Italian manner and it dates to about 1840.
When I first got it the top had many names written on the inside top (it was apart at the time). The only one I remember is Ernst Von Liebisch(sp), Viena (Vien). At the time I hadn't yet started working on basses and the Vuilluame name wouldn't have meant anything to me. When I had it restored the restorer removed all the names from the top because someone had applied a heavy wash of hide glue. When he removed the glue the names disappeared also; very sad because they were the history of every place the bass had been. I think the Von Liebisch repair was from 1858. Vuillaume often signed the inside tops of his instruments. He had a signature that would have made John Hancock proud.

Can we see this bass of yours?

[Martin Sheridan]

I'll see if I can get you some when I get back to town. Will be in old Kentuck till next week.

[Ken Smith]

About ten years ago a musician told me that Vuillaume graduated the tops of his basses to 6mm all over. Can anyone confirm this?

I don't know if Vuillaume did this but I do know that Panormo did. The one I have here supposedly a Panormo 'School' Bass is 6-6.5mm thick all across the Top.

Panormo did work in France as well but that was before Vuillaume was born. If this is true about the 6mm Top thickness then perhaps he just copied Panormo.

[Jason Sypher]

Charlie Haden has a confirmed Vuillaume right? Incredible that I can't find any photos of it on the web. Bass Player magazine did an article on Charlie about 15 years ago and had a nice photo of the bass on it's side.

[Ken Smith]

Charlie Haden has a confirmed Vuillaume right? Incredible that I can't find any photos of it on the web. Bass Player magazine did an article on Charlie about 15 years ago and had a nice photo of the bass on it's side.

I don't know all of who made what for Vuillaume but he employed many makers for Violins, Cellos, Basses and Bows as well. With his business and traveling I doubt that he made much of anything all by himself.

How do you confirm who made a bass if there were reportedly 3, 4, or 5 different makers that over time made these for him? If my Mougenot didn't have a label inside it would be attributed to Vuillaume as well. It has the same FFs as found on other Basses with his mark. Mougenot worked for and took over the shop of his brother Nicholas F. Vuillaume who reportedly made basses for JB when he worked with him before moving to Brussels.

So, is the Haden Bass a Vuillaume 'ordered' 'made' 'shop' 'contracted' bass or a bass made totally by the hand of JB? I have no idea. Also, at one time in France the 'Guilds' were in power in the violin field so Varnish, Scrolls and violin making were done by separate certified craftspeople.

[Jason Sypher]

Well then why call anything by it's name? There is really no way to know if any bass was made by the name on the label, right?

[Ken Smith]

Well then why call anything by it's name? There is really no way to know if any bass was made by the name on the label, right?

You mentioned a 'confirmed' Vuillaume. It was the 'confirmed' part I was referring to as with this maker, the Basses are more than likely from others.

He had a fairly large shop and output. I am sure his model, quality and varnish was closely followed under his or someones watchful eye but I doubt he made all the instruments bearing his name.

Some makers worked alone. Vuillaume was far from that. Some had an assistant or two, three or more. Who knows? I was just again responding to the 'confirmed' mention.

[Dave Longenecker]

Speaking of Vuillaume - I believe he was the one who actually made the Octobass.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Well then why call anything by it's name? There is really no way to know if any bass was made by the name on the label, right? Right. It's been written, referring to the violin trade, that 90% of labels are fake. Some experts, however, can tune in to a particular maker's handwork, style, model, f-hole, etc., and provide an appraisal that is above reproach. Then again, certain violins known as Strads for the last century or so, have recently been "proven" to be English, from a Century later.

There is a big difference between "made by", "from the shop of", "school of", and "in the style of". Unfortunately, all this vagueness makes buying an expensive instrument a bit un-nerving, which is why one should always seek out multiple opinions from practitioners one can trust. As far as "Vuillaume" basses go, like Ken said above, I would put them in the category of "from the shop of".

[Ken Smith]

Right. It's been written, referring to the violin trade, that 90% of labels are fake. Some experts, however, can tune in to a particular maker's handwork, style, model, f-hole, etc., and provide an appraisal that is above reproach. Then again, certain violins known as Strads for the last century or so, have recently been "proven" to be English, from a Century later.

There is a big difference between "made by", "from the shop of", "school of", and "in the style of". Unfortunately, all this vagueness makes buying an expensive instrument a bit un-nerving, which is why one should always seek out multiple opinions from practitioners one can trust. As far as "Vuillaume" basses go, like Ken said above, I would put them in the category of "from the shop of".

Ok on the 90% BUT that includes the many thousands of Violins made in the 19th century with various names inside, Strad leading the group.

In the case of basses and aside from the obvious factory made instruments, I don't know if 90% is correct. Maybe if you add in the false attributions you can get to that number. I have however found a few authentic basses over time but everything is suspect at the start.

Newer makers are easier to find as those names are not old enough yet to be used for fakes. On the other hand, if it's a famous name, it can be used. Many late 19th century thru early and mid 20th century Italian names are being found in violins thru basses today made anywhere from Hungary to even Italy. It is much easier to fake 50 or 100 years than 200-300 years or more.

An Italian bass from the early 20th century being sold for less than a factory Juzek is very suspect regardless of condition. Within that 90% number, the Juzek basses help push that percentage to its top because there is no such thing as a bass made by Juzek and there never was. They are all fakes or more politely, a brand 'sold by'. imported by' and maybe, a slight maybe, designed by'.

When I bought my Martini from Italy Arnold asked me to make sure it's not a fake because it was very possible. When he saw it in person shortly after it arrived, all suspicions were removed. It was the real thing. Lucky me..;)

With Vuillaume, I hear that name used so much as if he specialized in Basses. How can you tell a French Bass, 'false' cello model, round or flat back bass from the makers like Bernardel, Claudot, Derezay, Gand, Barbe, Jacquet, Lamy etc. IF, they all look so alike. Not to mention, some of the scrolls and varnishes were made within the guild trade as required by law then.

I heard of a beautiful Lamy getting restored and when it was nearly done, the Shop owner put in a Gand label to sell it for more. Who could tell?

[Arnold Schnitzer]

there is no suck thing as a bass made by Juzek True, most are pretty decent...:D

[Ken Smith]

True, most are pretty decent...:D

SucH... Just a Typo funny guy.. Most are decent as compared to what?

[Dave Martin]

SucH... Just a Typo funny guy.. Most are decent as compared to what?
Umm... as compared to the rental and loaner basses I have to play on fly dates when my Juzek isn't with me? :rolleyes:

Fortunately, mine is with me tonight in Hutchinson, KS. Unfortunately, I had to drive for 13 hours for that to happen - and then 13 more hours tomorrow to get back to Nashville. :(

[Dave Martin]

http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs264.snc1/9122_170642586653_517241653_3742753_6756979_n.jpg

[Benjamin Berlioz]

hello,this picture to "médiatheque cité de la musique" is a "copie Stradivairus" from JB Vuillaume...elle appartenais au bassiste Anglais Edward J. Merritt,le fond de la caisse Ã* été agrandi par Gand et Bernardel ,j'ai moi meme une Vuillaume dont voici des photos

[Anselm Hauke]

bonsoir benjamin

tres belle contrebasse!
do you have some more infos about it?

[Benjamin Berlioz]

Guten Tag Anselme
désolé de vous ecrire en français ... cette contrebasse viens de l, atelier de JB Vuillaume Entre 1830 et 1840 d'apres le luthier français JF Schmitt. je n'ai pas plus d'info, la contrebasse appartenais au bassiste Canadien J Quarrington

[Benjamin Berlioz]

another photo to my Bass Vuillaume

[Benjamin Berlioz]

another picture to Bass Vuillaume "Sainte Cécile" in the "Musée de la cité de la musique "in Paris and the last picture is the Bass Vuillaume owned by Vincent Charbonnier

[Anselm Hauke]

Guten Tag Anselme
désolé de vous ecrire en français ... cette contrebasse viens de l, atelier de JB Vuillaume Entre 1830 et 1840 d'apres le luthier français JF Schmitt. je n'ai pas plus d'info, la contrebasse appartenais au bassiste Canadien J Quarrington

bonsoir benjamin
i´m sorry, but my french is not the best :o, could you please write that in english too? thanks :)
(and maybe ken wants to know it too :rolleyes:)

do you know anything about the st. cecile i posted here http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=618
in posts # 7,17,18? (i bet you recognize the shop...:cool:)

merci!

[Martin Sheridan]

Thanks for posting the photos of the Vuillaume (not the St. Cecile). It's exactly like one that I saw several years ago. There are many of the red ones that were made in Mirecourt sometimes with impressive names but most of the time not labeled at all.