another puzzle

[Adrian Levi]

Well , I have just had a neck put onto the body of a bass of mine , Ill show that in another thread .
When fetching my bass I asked where the neck came from and was shown this body/to cut a long story short a bought the body for about $100 .

What is intriguing is that this bass has been worked on by a number of people over the years , the original finish looks to be gone but the inside of the bass looks to be pretty old ?? I have no idea how to judge this instrument as the outside varnish is new but something tells me that that this may have been a good instrument .
Ill include pics of the actual scroll that was on the bass , its actually quite nicely carved.

Ok Ken , do your worst !! :D

[Arnold Schnitzer]

I think that could be a French bass; definitely worth saving!

[Ken Smith]

I think that could be a French bass; definitely worth saving!

This looks French from the inside and the Back does as well. The Top is in poor shape and hard to see its true form but I would say Mirecourt factory Jacquet school. The Scroll is French as well and was maybe a 3-string converted to 4 but modified with German Gears. A total mismatch in my book.

Re-varnished poorly as well as the Scroll in a darker color does hurt the value quite a bit. The Scroll although French as well is no guarantee it belongs to THAT bass. The Scrolls were usually 'Guild' made anyway and were supplied to more then one shop from the same supply but having it all original is a plus.

That center wide crossbar is original but the upper and lower bars were maybe added later. The French did not usually mix those two designs that I have seen.

[Adrian Levi]

This looks French from the inside and the Back does as well. The Top is in poor shape and hard to see its true form but I would say Mirecourt factory Jacquet school. The Scroll is French as well and was maybe a 3-string converted to 4 but modified with German Gears. A total mismatch in my book.

Re-varnished poorly as well as the Scroll in a darker color does hurt the value quite a bit. The Scroll although French as well is no guarantee it belongs to THAT bass. The Scrolls were usually 'Guild' made anyway and were supplied to more then one shop from the same supply but having it all original is a plus.

That center wide crossbar is original but the upper and lower bars were maybe added later. The French did not usually mix those two designs that I have seen.

Sounds interesting , I guessed maybe French ! It does look like it may have been a 3 string at one time ( at least the scroll does ).
What age do you estimate it to be and do you have a pic of a bass that you think may be from the same school and era ?

[Ken Smith]

Sounds interesting , I guessed maybe French ! It does look like it may have been a 3 string at one time ( at least the scroll does ).
What age do you estimate it to be and do you have a pic of a bass that you think may be from the same school and era ?

With that model and Cross bar I suspect latter quarter 19th century to early 20th. Just look at the French bass section here and Google Jacquet bass. Plenty of them in the world. I am not claiming exactly that it was made in one of the 3 or 4 Jacquet shops but rather it is in that style. many French makers used practically the exact same pattern. Like the German 3/4 Gamba basses. The all look almost alike as well.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

That huge crossbar is whacky! The soundpost would need to sit on the northern edge of it to be properly placed.

[Ken Smith]

That huge crossbar is whacky! The soundpost would need to sit on the northern edge of it to be properly placed.

Arnold, looking at the Top and the F-notches, the 'Post would be the lower third of that 'Bar just south of the middle of the C-bout. If you click on and blow up the pic of the inner Back you can see a mark from the Sound Post on the lower 3rd of that wide Bar.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Arnold, looking at the Top and the F-notches, the 'Post would be the lower third of that 'Bar just south of the middle of the C-bout. If you click on and blow up the pic of the inner Back you can see a mark from the Sound Post on the lower 3rd of that wide Bar.Right. I was seeing the space between the middle and lower bars as the middle bar. Now I see...

[Ken Smith]

Right. I was seeing the space between the middle and lower bars as the middle bar. Now I see...

That's what it looked like to me until I blew up the pic.

[Sam Sherry]

Two totally unrelated thoughts:

1) When a bass gets major restoration to every single component the bass you bring home is not the bass you started out with. Is somebody going to guaranty that back if they don't remove it, yank the braces, re-join the back plates, and replace the braces (with nice new ones)? Won't those bass-side cracks get fixed better if you remove and re-make the bass-bar? The neck is already out; it's a pure accident if it doesn't need a change of angle, right? How tight will the sides be if you don't address the popsicle-stick braces? New board, saddle, tailpiece, nut . . . How "french" will it be after that? Maybe that doesn't matter. Maybe it shouldn't.

2) Am I wrong that when you do that much work, it's gonna need to settle and you'll probably need to open it up again in a few years anyway?

[Arnold Schnitzer]

A restored French bass is still a French bass. And no, if the work is done well, and in a relatively dry climate, it should not fall apart. And a good restoration job should result in a bass that sounds good the first day it is re-strung. Of course it will mellow-out and improve from there.

[Ken Smith]

Two totally unrelated thoughts:

1) When a bass gets major restoration to every single component the bass you bring home is not the bass you started out with. Is somebody going to guaranty that back if they don't remove it, yank the braces, re-join the back plates, and replace the braces (with nice new ones)? Won't those bass-side cracks get fixed better if you remove and re-make the bass-bar? The neck is already out; it's a pure accident if it doesn't need a change of angle, right? How tight will the sides be if you don't address the popsicle-stick braces? New board, saddle, tailpiece, nut . . . How "french" will it be after that? Maybe that doesn't matter. Maybe it shouldn't.

2) Am I wrong that when you do that much work, it's gonna need to settle and you'll probably need to open it up again in a few years anyway?

Sam, this it 'totally' related if you ask me. The question now is 'are you willing to spend what it takes to fully restore this bass'?

A bass poorly or partially repaired is sometimes best left alone until all the needed work can be done properly. That is, IF you want the bass to have the best value possible! To me, poorly or partially repaired is worth no more or maybe less than if it had been left alone in the first place.

The Mougenot I bought not long ago was in need of a huge restoration by my standards. The seller disagreed with my but did give me a shorter list of what he would have done if it was up to him. My list includes the back center seam rejoined, the wide center brace replaced with about 3 braces in total, the Ribs re-repaired, the Bass bar removed and a plaster cast mold made to press out the top just a bit at the lower bar area, the Neck replaced with a new graft, the neck moved out and set deeper into the block slightly to reduce the string length to 42" or less and the heel from Eb to D.

Now, the Mougenot was playable when it came in and I did use it on at least one concert and it had been in that condition for some time. The bass above however is in much worse shape and needs just about everything. The Mirecout Gears that are missing were replaced with German hatpegs. Those should be also replaced with something more fitting but nothing that looks German.

Down the road if this bass comes to market again after this possible restoration, it will be much easier to sell if it looks French, like it was properly cared for and restored properly.

[Adrian Levi]

A restored French bass is still a French bass. And no, if the work is done well, and in a relatively dry climate, it should not fall apart. And a good restoration job should result in a bass that sounds good the first day it is re-strung. Of course it will mellow-out and improve from there.

Seems obvious to me , especially if the sides , and plates stay original.

But at what stage would the term 'restoration' not be applicable , and a term like 're-build/re-make for example apply . Say for arguments sake the top plate has to be totally replaced including the scroll ..... etc ?

[Ken Smith]

Seems obvious to me , especially if the sides , and plates stay original.

But at what stage would the term 'restoration' not be applicable , and a term like 're-build/re-make for example apply . Say for arguments sake the top plate has to be totally replaced including the scroll ..... etc ?

Never replace the Top on an old bass unless it's actually missing or destroyed and splintered beyond repair by the best possible efforts. It may be easier than fixing if not totally destroyed but to replace it, you can cut the value in half as far as I'm concerned. Some will disagree but I hate to see old basses with replaced parts that don't have to be.

Basses with replaced Tops and or Heads are greatly devalued.

Your bass is not that bad at all in comparison. I have seen much worse by far put back together.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Ken, did you really post at 4:32 AM? Wow, you really get up early for work. I'm impressed!

[Ken Smith]

Ken, did you really post at 4:32 AM? Wow, you really get up early for work. I'm impressed!

Hey, if I stuck to the clock I would never get all my work done. Sometimes I am up at 4am and sometimes I am up TILL 4am.

You're impressed?:)

Ok..;)

What does that get me?:confused:

A free C-Extension on the Storioni??:p:rolleyes:

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Nothing is free in this world. Except worry. :(

[Adrian Levi]

Nothing is free in this world. Except worry. :(

Debatable that ! Im of the opinion that worry has its price :(

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Meanwhile Adrian, you need to rescue that French bass...

[Adrian Levi]

Meanwhile Adrian, you need to rescue that French bass...

Arnold , I fully intend to sometime in the near future , now to find someone who can do justice to the instrument.
Any chance of you coming to my neck of the woods for a few months ? :D

[Adrian Levi]

I've measured this French bass up and have found the measurements to be the same as this old French bass featured on this site , with one exception the rib depth is only 20cm ! Seems pretty petite to me :confused: ??

[Ken Smith]

I've measured this French bass up and have found the measurements to be the same as this old French bass featured on this site , with one exception the rib depth is only 20cm ! Seems pretty petite to me :confused: ??

That is an attributed Italian Bass featured on a French website. Sorry..

Post YOUR measurements and we can go from there.

[Adrian Levi]

Ok , I've measured it up for you just like the dimensions in the pic, minus plates of course .

Length = 114 cm
lower bout width =65 cm
upper bout width=51,5 cm
c bout / corner to corner of bout ( i.e not from c bout to c bout , but each bout measured from top edge to bottom edge ) = 24,5 cm
rib depth = 20 cm

[Ken Smith]

Ok , I've measured it up for you just like the dimensions in the pic, minus plates of course .

Length = 114 cm
lower bout width =65 cm
upper bout width=51,5 cm
c bout / corner to corner of bout ( i.e not from c bout to c bout , but each bout measured from top edge to bottom edge ) = 24,5 cm
rib depth = 20 cm

We speak inches here. I don't understand the C-bout measurement. You measures the height of the curve? Why? We usually only measure the width across the most narrow point. The upper and lower at their widest points.

In inches converted by /2.54 and rounded;
Length = 44 7/8" (this is body length?.. what is the String length?)
lower bout width = 25 5/8"
upper bout width= 20 1/4"
c bout / corner to corner of bout ( i.e not from c bout to c bout , but each bout measured from top edge to bottom edge ) = 9 5/8" (block to block?)
rib depth = 7 7/8"

Before the metric system, Europe used inches too I think. Violins measure at 14" as standard. My old English bass/violin books use inches for body sizes of basses.

the rib depth is only 20cm (7 7/8")! Seems pretty petite to me

That is NOT in any way petite. Many many basses measure from 7.5". to just under 8". I just looked at my basses and the 7 7/8" I think came from 8" stock that finished down 1/8th inch in the making.

The basses of mine at 7 7/8" include the Hofner 5, Hart, Martini, Jacquet, Lombardi, Sirleto and Lott copy. I have a few that are 7 3/4" and one at 7 1/2" which was one of the loudest and deepest basses I ever had. Several are 8" and over but this 7 7/8" inches seems to be very common.

[Adrian Levi]

Thanks for the patience Ken !!

Here are the total measurements / with my attempt at inches using a converter on my mac / not too sure how to deal with the fractions though :o

total rib depth 20 cm

string length 108 cm (52,5'')

Body Length 114 cm (44.8'')

upper bout width 51,5 cm (20.2'')

lower bout width 65 cm (25.5'')

upper c bout / block to block 47.5 cm (18.7'')

lower c bout / 54.5 (21.4'')