Belcantos for Jazz?

[Ken Smith]

After a mini-String search (more on that here) (http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=1145) I put a set of Belcantos back on the Martini that were on the bass briefly awhile back but the Hart at that time needed them more so like a good sport the Mr. Martini is, he gave them up respecting the wishes of his elder!

Today however, I pulled them off the Hart and put the Bel's back on the Martini where I wanted them originally. The Hart is doing just fine with its old Flex.92s back on that were on for the most part since its restoration in Oct. of '07.

The Martini has some decent tension and not a lot of after ring to the notes which for Jazz is better I think than having a mushy sustain with no center to the note.

For me, Jazz Bass should not be that buzz saw type sound that makes more noise than it does music notes. Somewhere between the old Gut sound and the modern Spiro tone is what I personally like. The Martini has a nice clear Pizz tone acoustically but I've yet to test it with my Amp and Pickup. I think these will sound more like a mature older type sound than Spiros but not at all that gut like. Fat Steels basically.

My goal has always been setting up each Bass so it can do everything with the same set of strings. My old Italian Bass some 25-35 years ago was mainly strung with Spiros. I played everything with that bass from Jazz to Orchestra and it was just fine. The Martini at 91 years old is less than half the age of my old flame and it needs what it needs to be versatile across the board. I think Belcantos can be universal on the right Bass.

I must mention here that the regular E string Belcanto is lighter in gauge and tension that the slightly beefier Extended E/C string. A major difference between the two for the better as far as having an extension.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Ken, I noticed that you wrote this at 3 AM! Had you stayed up late, or gotten up early? Did Claudia kick you out of bed (again)? Your friends are worried about you, old guy...

[Ken Smith]

Ken, I noticed that you wrote this at 3 AM! Had you stayed up late, or gotten up early? Did Claudia kick you out of bed (again)? Your friends are worried about you, old guy...

Arnold, this is off topic! :mad: Do you have something ON topic to say? :confused:

I was up late and worked late. I was playing at the office on these strings till 1:30am. I stopped playing to come home and sleep. ;)

Everything at home is just fine and dandy.. :)

Did Barb make you sleep in the Barn again with the Horses? :eek: Is that why you are talking like this, so grumpy and bitter? :p

Belcantos for a 'different' old Jazz sound.. Regardless of where the misses makes you sleep.. :D

[Adrian Juras]

Its too bad they don't make a Stark Belcanto E. That would probably work out nicely for a darker pizz tone.

[Ken Smith]

Its too bad they don't make a Stark Belcanto E. That would probably work out nicely for a darker pizz tone.

As a matter of opinion, the Extension E/C to 'me' is a Stark in comparison. Coming from using 92s and comparing the regular or even the E/C 92, the Stark 92 is about as different in comparison to MY feel as the E/C Belcanto to the regular Bel E.

The don't call it a Stark but it feels like it.

My Martini with 92s needs the Stark 92 E/C. The Hart with 92s is just fine with the regular E/C 92 at about .102, the regular E being about .098. The Stark 92 is about .106. I had the same Belcanto set on both Basses. The E felt TOO heavy on the Hart but felt great on the Martini. I had another set on my Gilkes as well and the E/C was only a tad heavy by comparison. So, it depends on the Bass. Some older basses need regular gauges and some more robust ones need the extra oomph to get the blood flowing..

All of the above Bass comparisons have C-Extensions.

[Richard Prowse]

I found the pizz feel of the Bel Canti slightly light on my plywood, but I'm loving it on my carved - they've been on for a year now and they will be staying. I'm looking forward to lots of jazz gigs - you know me, forever the optimist.

[Paul Warburton]

Ken, I noticed that you wrote this at 3 AM! Had you stayed up late, or gotten up early? Did Claudia kick you out of bed (again)? Your friends are worried about you, old guy...

Yeah, who the hell wound him up. My ear is still sore from a recent phone conversation we had. Check that.....He had. :eek:

EDIT: I laid the phone down, went to the can, checked the mail, made lunch and called my Doc on my cell about my bleeding ear and he was still going a mile a minute.

[Ken Smith]

Yeah, who the hell wound him up. My ear is still sore from a recent phone conversation we had. Check that.....He had. :eek:

EDIT: I laid the phone down, went to the can, checked the mail, made lunch and called my Doc on my cell about my bleeding ear and he was still going a mile a minute.

Oh Really? That's good to know..:p

[Joel Larsson]

A friend who manages to make a living as a jazz player just recently switched to the Bels, and he likes them. Myself, admittedly being a half-arsed jazz player but I do enjoy to thump away every once in a while, also like them. I think Ken is right that they sure don't have the buzz (or the 'mmMWAAAH', as it has also been called) that some want but they are still clearly steel strings—they could be said to be 'gutsy' compared to other steels, but they are hardly gut! So, they're nicely in between the extremes... I like that. Now, how did they work with amplification?

[Richard Prowse]

Now, how did they work with amplification?
Mine amplify fine.

[Paul Warburton]

They didn't have enough "point" or sustain, at least on my bass.

[Richard Prowse]

I played mine quite a few times in a loud Irish band (I don't enjoy playing my DB at that volume) and they seemed to cope, almost as well as the Weichs. I like as little amplification as possible for jazz, so they're closer to the acoustic sound. They sound great acoustic - I played a few 'folk' jams like that and they seemed to power through all the bl00dy mandolins, fiddles, squeeze boxes and guitars.

[Scott Pope]

My CCB ply is really growly on its own, so the darker Bels have been really good for the pizz gigs I've been doing lately: Celtic-trad acoustic jams and "standards" jazz/dance band gigs for the military unit reunion gigs, through a Fishman Full Circle to a small amp. My bass can't take full advantage of the fundamental nature of the Bel E string, however, and I've changed it out for a Spiro 3885.5W 3/4 E string, which blends really well in all ways on my bass: tone, tension, feel, etc., with the Bels ADG.

[Scott Pope]

Follow up to the above posts: had a wedding reception gig this weekend. Good room, appreciative family & guests, etc. Great gig. The room had a lot of inherent clarity which benefitted the band greatly, and helped me truly judge their character in an amplified gig setting (Full Circle mounted "upside down" into a fdeck HPF "Pro" II buffer/preamp/high pass, then into a Carvin MB-12 combo). The band, especially the band leader, who is also the drummer and a high school band director, really like the way the Bels sound on my CCB, with a Spiro 3885.5W 3/4 Weich E string to balance the Bels ADG.

On my bass, the G is solid, not twangy or thin (it is with a Spiro Weich as well, where a lot of folks complain about twang); the A & D have good harmonic character and carry; and the Spiro E string has just that much more presence to really coordinate well with balanced tension and "feel," as opposed to the Bel E which this bass just doesn't have the fundamental resonance to take advantage of. (Of course not - it's ply, which makes it better for the amplified jazz/dance gigs I do)

Compared to the Spiros S42W that were on the bass previously, these definitely have a more "round" tone. Not quite the "growl," but more fitting for the two bands I'm in playing standards. The Spiros had so much growl on this particular instrument, on the request of another friend who is a teacher and occasional bandleader, I actually used my CCB in place of an electric bass guitar for an electric country/classic rock crossover gig with him last year. The added tension of the Bels over the Spiros S42W's has changed the "mechanical impedance" (engineering term for resonance) of the bass, almost eliminating the hot open D string I discussed in a prior thread.

Yes, for lack of any better description, I think the phrase posted above, "gut-sy," meaning slightly less overtone development than other steel strings conventionally associated with playing jazz/dance music, along with a slightly damped sustain, is good. These characteristics make it easier to keep time and intonation cleaner on this bass. The only nit so far is that the G string could actually use a hair more sustain; but nothing is perfect, and of course it's only noticable on ballads (where I probably should be playing two halfs instead of a whole note at slower tempos, anyway to keep the band steady).

Finally, after playing them for three sets, if a player is more used to something like the Spiro S42 Weich set, Innovation Honeys, Velvet Blues, or other strings with true light tension, the Bels are more of a workout, but not the workout that playing a full set of Spiro Mittels is.

[Richard Prowse]

Glad they're going well for you Scott. On my bass(es) the Belcanti felt a tad too loose for pizz - I used them in a gypsy jazz band for quite a while. I like a bit more resistance (for pizz) when the tempo gets faster. I'm getting really interested in spiro reds - I have EP weichs on at the moment. Lovely strings to play, but the bow response is a bit slow.

[Scott Pope]

Well, the "standards" gigs of this year are all over, and it's time to play Christmas party and dance club party gigs with a wider repertoire. Time to take the Bels off. They did superb for the darker pizz that I needed this year.

Now, let's see...a couple of months ago I purchased a Jazzer D & A...where did I put them...oh, there they are....