bass bar types ?

[Adrian Levi]

I am interested in why it seems to be the norm to change an integral bass bass bar . Is it a structural issue or is it one to do with sound ?

I have heard basses with an integral bar that do sound very good though.Is it a wise idea to change these on , say a museum grade instrument ?

[Ken Smith]

I am interested in why it seems to be the norm to change an integral bass bass bar . Is it a structural issue or is it one to do with sound ?

I have heard basses with an integral bar that do sound very good though.Is it a wise idea to change these on , say a museum grade instrument ?

I don't think you will find many museum grade instruments with integral bars in them. This was usually done to save time and money as time IS money in manufacturing.

What do you consider a museum grade instrument to be anyway?

The Bar runs at a slight angle to the grain of the Top. An Integral Bass IS the grain but a Lump left in shaped like a Bar.

This reminds me of a Joke I heard years ago when I played Bass in the Shows for the Stars at Westbury Music Fair in LI NY. I believe it was Shecky Green (http://www.google.com/search?q=shecky+green&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a) who said.. "Ma, why do you make the Chicken so greasy?" .. Mom answers in a thick heavy Jewish accent.. "Shecky, I never make Chicken! I just make a Pot of Grrrease and shape it like a Chicken!!" :D:D

So, an integral bar is NOT really a bass bar for the function it was intended. It just looks like a bar!;)

[Adrian Levi]

I don't think you will find many museum grade instruments with integral bars in them. This was usually done to save time and money as time IS money in manufacturing.

What do you consider a museum grade instrument to be anyway?

The Bar runs at a slight angle to the grain of the Top. An Integral Bass IS the grain but a Lump left in shaped like a Bar.

This reminds me of a Joke I heard years ago when I played Bass in the Shows for the Stars at Westbury Music Fair in LI NY. I believe it was Shecky Green (http://www.google.com/search?q=shecky+green&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a) who said.. "Ma, why do you make the Chicken so greasy?" .. Mom answers in a thick heavy Jewish accent.. "Shecky, I never make Chicken! I just make a Pot of Grrrease and shape it like a Chicken!!" :D:D

So, an integral bar is NOT really a bass bar for the function it was intended. It just looks like a bar!;)

I guess in my mind a museum grade bass would be one made by one of the masters ie a Panormo / you'd know the names a lot better than me. I may be wrong but I did read somewhere that some Panormo basses had integral bars.

[Ken Smith]

I guess in my mind a museum grade bass would be one made by one of the masters ie a Panormo / you'd know the names a lot better than me. I may be wrong but I did read somewhere that some Panormo basses had integral bars.

After 200 years and more I doubt there are enough basses still in original condition to come up with that conclusion. Panormo is noted for the high arching, angled back and 6mm thicknessing around the Top (or maybe the back as well) without the normal variation in graduations.

I think Basses without 'real' Bars were done either out of laziness, cheapness or ignorance. Maybe some early instruments as well before the knowledge of bass making was fully developed but a great maker like Panormo putting out basses with his known reputation didn't have a bassbar? News to me!

[Adrian Levi]

After 200 years and more I doubt there are enough basses still in original condition to come up with that conclusion. Panormo is noted for the high arching, angled back and 6mm thicknessing around the Top (or maybe the back as well) without the normal variation in graduations.

I think Basses without 'real' Bars were done either out of laziness, cheapness or ignorance. Maybe some early instruments as well before the knowledge of bass making was fully developed but a great maker like Panormo putting out basses with his known reputation didn't have a bassbar? News to me!

Perhaps Shecky Green knows something about Panormo's without bass bars :D

[Matthew Tucker]

Ken, having carved a few tops now, I can't work out how an integral bass bar would be any less work than a "normal" bass bar. It would make graduating the top much harder,and it would be difficult to carve neatly, unless you are using a CNC machine, which those old guys were not. So I can't really see how cheapness, laziness or ignorance had anything to do with it.

As far as "museum" grade bass is concerned, I would say it should definitely be left original, because conservation is the purpose of a museum. However, if it's designed to be regularly played, then its not a Museum" grade instrument, and if the bass bar needs replacing, replace it.

[Ken Smith]

Ken, having carved a few tops now, I can't work out how an integral bass bar would be any less work than a "normal" bass bar. It would make graduating the top much harder,and it would be difficult to carve neatly, unless you are using a CNC machine, which those old guys were not. So I can't really see how cheapness, laziness or ignorance had anything to do with it.

As far as "museum" grade bass is concerned, I would say it should definitely be left original, because conservation is the purpose of a museum. However, if it's designed to be regularly played, then its not a Museum" grade instrument, and if the bass bar needs replacing, replace it.

Where to start.. I don't agree here with you, sorry.

There were other kinds of carving machines back then. The integral bar wood left in was not so neatly carved. The graduations often way over normal specs. Basses like the ones labeled Morelli and Pfretzschner made nearly 100 years ago had Top and Back plates carved by a machine of some sort.

Back around 1978 I took the top off an old German or Tirol style Bass. I spent no less than 8 full hours carving that out and replacing it with a real Bar. I was a busy working musician then in the NY studios and in my down time, I fiddled with basses, inside and out. That was my only Bassbar job and the chalk fit was as good as the eye could see. Carving by machine and leaving a chunk of wood in there doesn't take 8 hours!

I think on the Museum 'Quality' Basses, that phrase to me doesn't mean it's IN a Museum. Most basses in Museums would need a full restoration and modernization with the proper fittings to go back in to service.

I own and have owned many basses in this class. I have seen them worked on and modified to all degrees you can imagine. In every single case, the bass met the modern needs and to do what it was intended to do, be played!

Basses fall apart in Museums. The more they are left alone, the more it will take to fix them. Putting in a REAL Bar if it doesn't have one even IF to be put back in its cage will help it live better and longer under string tension.

Just my opinion and experience talking here. I would also like to mention than in that period that was the only bass that needed a Bar. I would have done more if needed. I did many top cracks, cross bars and a few plates on and off. Maybe 20-30 basses passed thru me then or so, I can't remember. It was a part time hobby and no one complained about my work back then either. I had one main bass for 15 years and it only needed strings on occassion. I glued one corner on it and put some glue in a rib crack opening in the 15 years besides bridge set-up work. I did only the jobs that the basses needed that I bought and sold then.

[Matthew Tucker]

Ok fair enough, so would you say that integral bars only ever appear in quickly-made cheap basses, and that the master makers never used integral bars?

[Ken Smith]

Ok fair enough, so would you say that integral bars only ever appear in quickly-made cheap basses, and that the master makers never used integral bars?

No, I am not saying that. I am saying that if there is an Integral Bar even in a Strad, change it!

I have seen only one Italian Bass with an integral Bar but was not a famous maker. The corner blocks were small 1" sized pieces upper and lower in each joint and not top to back connecting the plates. Obviously a 'quicky' mentality.

It is rare today to find old instruments in their original state. Once opened for repair, a 'good' and sensible Luthier usually 'corrects' these short comings.

Show me a master grade instrument with an integral Bar, please!

[Adrian Levi]

I have another question that I want to throw out there about bass bars .

Surely a bass bar with the least amount of mass possible ( ie the smallest dimensions possible ) would be a 'better sounding' bar. Obviously a bar has to provide the optimal support for a top and so it has to have some mass , but luthiers are often talking about adding as few cleats as possible to cracks as not to add too much extra mass to the top ,in order to let the top vibrate to its full potential....

[Arnold Schnitzer]

I have another question that I want to throw out there about bass bars .

Surely a bass bar with the least amount of mass possible ( ie the smallest dimensions possible ) would be a 'better sounding' bar. Obviously a bar has to provide the optimal support for a top and so it has to have some mass , but luthiers are often talking about adding as few cleats as possible to cracks as not to add too much extra mass to the top ,in order to let the top vibrate to its full potential....The upside to an undersized bass bar is increased volume and bass response. The downside is increased wolf tones and unevenness. Also, a bass bar that is too weak will lead quickly to collapsing of the top table on the E-string side. Sizing and placing the bass bar just right is a difficult task. Tools I personally use for this task include ruler, protractor, calculator and Ouija board.

[Adam Linz]

Ok, Arnold wins. The Ouiga Board thing made me " almost " piss my pants. I want to buy one of his basses just based on this comment. Thanks for keeping it light and positive Arnold. The bass is hard enough already. Much thanks for the laugh.

[Matthew Tucker]

And furthermore, you want it to be a reliable ouija board, because its not like cutting a new bridge where you can try another blank and swap between the two if you want; you obviously don't know if the bass bar you have made works until you put the top back on and play for a while. And if it doesn't improve things, you're not guaranteed that by removing the top again and shifting the bar over a few mm (big job = new bar) that you'll get an improvement! So ... roll again

[Ken Smith]

Ok, Arnold wins. The Ouiga Board thing made me " almost " piss my pants. I want to buy one of his basses just based on this comment. Thanks for keeping it light and positive Arnold. The bass is hard enough already. Much thanks for the laugh.

I suggest that with what ever you know about this Top and its condition you make a judgment call if it's weak or strong and see if it's high or low arched.

Then, put the Bar in big and long. Then trim it back little by little. Slight angle to the grain fanning to the outer lower bout and also plan and measure out the Bridge size and placement. Not all Bar's need to be up against the Fs upper Eyes. Measure their distance across the Eyes first and make sure IF wide, you put it in a little so you can find a bridge that is not too narrow. 150-160mm is the average. Finding a good blank over 165mm is difficult. The Leg, not outer foot should be centered over the bar.

You can take the top off later and trim the bar down if need be. You cant add the wood back so a heavier Bar will just take longer to break in. If too heavy after a year or two, then it can be trimmed down. Give it time as it has to break in. In my experience I would say a 2 year minimum before making judgment after a big restoration. The NEW wood has to settle in.

I have some pics on my website of the Gilkes (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/gilkes/b4.htm) and Prescott (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/prescott/prescott-preview.html) inside with Bar pics and shapes. The Gilkes is a full 3/4 or so and the Prescott more of a 4/4 size. I did have a small, thin, short bar in my big Gamba English bass and we left that in. The Top was perfect so why change it. If later the Top sags, a bigger/longer Bar can be put in. For now, the sound and arch is great, no complaints. The Gilkes Bar was put in by Arnold. The Prescott looks to be its secondary Bar and very old. Arnold did trim it slightly but there was no need to replace it.

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/gilkes/restoration/IMG_1648.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/gilkes/restoration/IMG_1649.jpg
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/prescott/restoration/IMG_1528.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/prescott/restoration/IMG_1531.jpg

[Adrian Levi]

I'd just like to say thanks to Ken & Arnold for taking the time to offer their insight and opinions . I for one really do appreciate the value of this site as I'm sure many others do.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

I want to add that the rules for violin bass bar placement are irrelevant with bass, as the variations in bout widths and f-hole placements are enormous in basses.

[Adrian Levi]

I have one more question regarding bass bars . If you have a bar that is made and placed properly but is in need of say a little more depth to it , why not add wood onto the top of the bar ? This shouldn't be too difficult with the older more plain looking bars I've seen ??

[Ken Smith]

I have one more question regarding bass bars . If you have a bar that is made and placed properly but is in need of say a little more depth to it , why not add wood onto the top of the bar ? This shouldn't be too difficult with the older more plain looking bars I've seen ??

Unless the new added piece can 'grow' into the original and become one it will never work as a bar the modified size. It is not looks and size like a door, it's a structure piece and needs to be all one.

[Matthew Tucker]

I respectfully disagree; the centre portion of the bar is relatively inflexible and a well-glued addition could add useful weight/height without compromising the flexibility/springiness of the ends. So I think it *could* be done successfully, and I'm sure it has been tried.

However, that said, I don't think I'd do it!

[Tomas Bouda]

i don't think i'm convinced that gluing any wood onto the bassbar would be wise - i seen a few chinese factory basses with laminated bassbars (can you believe it?!) that were sandwiched 4-5 pieces of some type of wood. these basses always sound horrifying!