Failed Scroll attempt

[Adrian Levi]

A distraught bass owner dropped this off at me , said that this repair lasted about a year , surprisingly so with a 6mm pine dowel and barely any glue at all on the surfaces.
Of course a scroll graft is the correct procedure but he needs the bass asap as he is in the middle of a recording / any insight on how to make a decent interim repair ...... BTW bass is from Russia ?

[Arnold Schnitzer]

You would be joining end grain to end grain--a very weak proposition. I would not expect any repair to hold unless it includes a butterfly spline or "ironwork". I would advise you to walk away.

[Ken Smith]

A distraught bass owner dropped this off at me , said that this repair lasted about a year , surprisingly so with a 6mm pine dowel and barely any glue at all on the surfaces.
Of course a scroll graft is the correct procedure but he needs the bass asap as he is in the middle of a recording / any insight on how to make a decent interim repair ...... BTW bass is from Russia ?

If you are referring to those 2 pieces in your hand as the Scroll graft area then you are gravely mistaken. Gravely as far as the bass is concerned. That is NOT a scroll graft. Just an old pegbox/neck repair and poorly done. Actually, that is when it needed the actual graft of a new neck. Like Arnold said, you can't glue it there unless just to hang it on the wall, without strings of course.

This is what a scroll/neck graft is;
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/prescott/restoration/IMG_1519.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/prescott/restoration/IMG_1522.jpg

.. and after done, looks like this;
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/prescott/images/pres_scrolldetail.jpg

[Adrian Levi]

Herr Smith , I said that the proper thing to do would be a scroll graft (onto a new neck of course ), as you can see I labeled the failed procedure as you see it in the pic as a 'scroll attempt'.

If you are referring to those 2 pieces in your hand as the Scroll graft area then you are gravely mistaken. Gravely as far as the bass is concerned. That is NOT a scroll graft. Just an old pegbox/neck repair and poorly done. Actually, that is when it needed the actual graft of a new neck. Like Arnold said, you can't glue it there unless just to hang it on the wall, without strings of course.

This is what a scroll/neck graft is;
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/prescott/restoration/IMG_1519.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/prescott/restoration/IMG_1522.jpg

.. and after done, looks like this;
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/prescott/images/pres_scrolldetail.jpg

[Ken Smith]

Herr Smith , I said that the proper thing to do would be a scroll graft (onto a new neck of course ), as you can see I labeled the failed procedure as you see it in the pic as a 'scroll attempt'.

Sorry, reading here while at work I mis-read your post. I thought obviously that you said the graft was done correctly rather than the correct repair IS a graft.. My bad. Good.. we are on the same page here.

The ONLY repair I see here that will work IS a graft. Anthing else will fail in time and possibly cause more damage down the road leaving less wood where you need it to do a good graft. Now that it's apart and clean, it needs a graft, period. No way around it that I can see.

By the way, that's Arnold's work above on my former Prescott.

[Adrian Levi]

Sorry, reading here while at work I mis-read your post. I thought obviously that you said the graft was done correctly rather than the correct repair IS a graft.. My bad. Good.. we are on the same page here.

The ONLY repair I see here that will work IS a graft. Anthing else will fail in time and possibly cause more damage down the road leaving less wood where you need it to do a good graft. Now that it's apart and clean, it needs a graft, period. No way around it that I can see.

By the way, that's Arnold's work above on my former Prescott.

How do you manage to part with these gorgeous instruments ? Surely you must have regrets from time to time ...:)

[Ken Smith]

How do you manage to part with these gorgeous instruments ? Surely you must have regrets from time to time ...:)

Yes, I miss them for how they sounded the few times I used each one of them but in business, I must sell most of them and hold on to only a few. When a 'saved' bass kept for myself is admired by others and sold, I go and choose another. This is the business I chose to do so I live with whatever happens.

[Thomas Erickson]

Hopefully it has been fixed by now, but I just saw the thread -

Neck Graft! :D

Don't "mickey mouse" the thing any more, and please everyone else... just give the bass a new neck!:cool:

[Adrian Levi]

" yesss sah ! " " sorry sah !! " " one scroll graft coming up , immediately if not sooner sah "!

hopefully it has been fixed by now, but i just saw the thread -

neck graft! :d

don't "mickey mouse" the thing any more, and please everyone else... Just give the bass a new neck!:cool:

[Adrian Levi]

Adrian-I see the trip to the hills has given you a boost of confidence to become a graft warrior.LOL

Thomas, Although, I have always appreciated your sincere idealism, but from what I gather- a new neck might be overkil on this particular bass
"ASAP" If this means get it done and PDQ-well, it is not something that is luthier friendly-as my first mentor said to me many times "in this kind of work, it is always best to take your time"

Wayne,ain't no 'micky mousin' around here in the hills - I can strip and re-assemble a 4/4 with extension in under 5 minutes blindfolded:D. But seriously though,you are correct and in the real world it's not allways within a clients budget to afford the 'optimal procedure'.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

What does "changing out a neck" mean? A graft? A whole new neck and scroll?

I don't think this is an appropriate forum for businesses to compare the prices they charge for their services. In fact, there isn't an appropriate forum, as doing so is illegal, and that is why the FTC exists.

[Ken Smith]

To answer and end this answer-less quest I will say that it depends on the job and the shop and the worker and the materials and more.

A Luthier in NYC charging $100/hr as compared to one somewhere else charging $50/hr will get you two very different prices and not just the rate difference.

What if the $100/hr shop takes 30 hours and the $50/shop takes 42 hours for the exact same job/bass/scroll IF there is such a comparison? What if the $100/hr shop puts the neck too far forward in pitch for an Extension? I have seen this and from a famous show and for about double the going price when it was done. A rip off in my opinion but the customer didn't know any better then. The Extension was basically useless in my book and the bass still needed another graft to make it right and another extension.

Gear repairs, removal, re-installation? All bass gears are created equal? Looking at all the basses here in my room I don't see two that are exactly alike so in the gear job alone if no repairs or mods are needed I see a different time and prices right there unless the shop is shortsighted enough to have a fixed price for all graft jobs. In that case, if they are still in business than they are overcharging the majority of the time.

The graft block! Do all Luthiers/shops put on the exact same piece of wood on ever bass? These come from home depot in a box, one size fits all? NO WAY. Every neck or graft block is individual unless you are buying one-price factory necks. I don't have that on my basses and they are not welcomed here. So, that is another factor. If I have a bass being done worth $200k I want the best piece of wood for the neck available on the planet and will pay for it. It wont be getting a factory neck if I'm alive and no one I take my work to would even consider the suggestion. In the last 4 or 5 grafts (including a new bass, full neck/scroll) I have had in progress, the choice of the Neck wood, species, figure and grain has been a discussion on each and every bass. For all those hours of work and the lifetimes of use it should provide, going cheap on the wood is stupid. As Forrest Gump preached, "Stupid is as Stupid does"! That would be stupid, plain and simple. So, just one more reason you can't pin a price on 'A' Neck graft or Neck.

Ok, neck/Scroll pitch angle. How many times have you seen a Luthier CUT the Scroll to put a C-Extension on? Why did they Cut the Scroll? Well, some may have been lazy and I know that is the reason for many of them and others have just had the wrong Neck Graft pitch in their hands to work with. Advising the customer that he needs another new Graft to put an extension on doesn't sit well in the wallet for some. Guess what? I have a bass that was handled that way before I owned the bass and now I am not only paying for a new neck but the Scroll has to be expertly repaired as well. It is not the only Bass I have seen that was Cut for an Extension. So, finding a Luthier than knows his ass from his elbow in scroll and graft preparation or allowance for the future is something else to consider. I have seen several faulty graft angled scrolls in recent years and it upsets me that a good neck has to be destroyed to make the scroll pitch right once again for an extension. If an extension was already put on the incorrect pitched graft job, then the scroll also needs a repair. Finding wood to match is another problem in repairing it. If it's a dark blase varnished German bass, no biggie. How about a beautiful golden varnished English or Italian bass with a flamed maple scroll 200 years old? Who's gonna match that up and make it invisible? Can we shoot or hang the last guy that raped this Bass by either doing the graft wrong or by cutting the scroll on a bass that needed a new graft first?

Wayne, your question does not have an answer. Take YOUR bass around to 10 shops in USA and ask the prices for THAT Bass for a graft. Better yet, be a scientist. Have each one do it, over and over. Record the results and in the end see which ones did it the best, bet graft, best wood, best overall. That will cost a pretty penny but at least THEN, you will have your question answered..;)

[Ken Smith]

My apology-I had suspected that it was a dumb question and you, Ken and Arnold, have confirmed it.

Did I mention the new fingerboard you will need with a graft most of the time as well as new bridge if the old one is less than optimum or too low from the new FB thickness or the new neck set? Add some new strings most of the time and the set-up.

None of these things cost the same from everyone. Neither is the quality of the work.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

My apology-I had suspected that it was a dumb question and you, Ken and Arnold, have confirmed it.Not a dumb question, just not the right place for it (and a bit vague). :) Just to add to Ken's verbose dissertation; if the scroll is pitched forward following a neck graft, adding an extension is not the only problem. The angle of downward pressure to the string shafts in the pegbox has been reduced, and therefore the tension, and possibly the sound. In a proper neck graft, the scroll volute should sit back a couple mm's from the plane of the neck/fingerboard joint, and the center of the scroll volute should line up with the neck's center as well. These things are not easy to accomplish, and when mishandled (something I see often) can lead to playability, aesthetic and extension misery.

[Ken Smith]

hearing your wisdom, knowledge and experiences is always a learning experience-

"Verbose Dissertation" that's funny. You two remind me a little of Johnny and Ed, or the cartalk boys. Will you consider a radio show... "basstalk" ? Hello you're on basstalk comin from Ken's corna, on Arnold's square---don't play like my brotha, and don't play like MY brotha." Hi, You're on basstalk ----Hi, I'm Lisa from Milan TN- is that pronounced Milan or Melon? Anyways, I got this 1946 Kay that my daddy got me on my birthday(Ken interrupts-Your fatha got you a bass on the day you were born??? Anyway, my bass is making this funny sound...Can you make the sound---are you ****en me? Do it again...

As you can see, I don't have anything of value to add to this post, but felt like I had to say something after Ken sharing his VD with us all.

Thanks Adrian - change out the damn neck already!
Thomas-keep reaching high-maybe you'll inspire the rest to just go for it!

Oh My..:o Sharing my what?:confused: Little whos?:confused: Kay on B'day?:confused:

Wayne, you are drinking a bit too much of your own product!:eek::eek:

Adrian, do that neck fast, before Wayne Posts again:eek:.. please..:p

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Wayne, I don't think Ken has experienced Click and Clack, and therefore does not grok your very funny post.

[Adrian Levi]

Oh My..:o Sharing my what?:confused: Little whos?:confused: Kay on B'day?:confused:

Wayne, you are drinking a bit too much of your own product!:eek::eek:

Adrian, do that neck fast, before Wayne Posts again:eek:.. please..:p

Ok Im onto it ! But not sure which way the scroll should face ;) maybe I'll start another thread ....:D

[Adrian Levi]

Wow ,this thread has taken on a life of it's own !Wayne I was so inspired by your dialog that I grabbed a nailgun and in no time at all had the scroll back on.All that needs to be done now is to cut the end of a nail that is coming through the fingerboard and then epoxy the tuners back on !

[Dave Martin]

Stepping back a bit to a statement that Arnold made a few posts before the Click and Clack business...

Arnold, do you feel that discussing a craftsman's hourly rate is inappropriate for a public forum? We discuss the rates of lawyers, mechanics and plumbers with no real issues, and session rate scales and (in many cases, the annual salaries paid to nationally recognized symphony bassists) are certainly available to those interested; are luthiers different somehow? I know that when I take one of my electric basses to the shop, the repairman generally tells me about how many hours he thinks a task will take (unless it's a straight-up job like replacing pickups), and I can multiply that by his hourly rate to get an idea of what the job will cost.

Or is the issue simply that it's impossible to even give an estimate of how long that sort of project will take without the instrument in question under your hands?

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Dave, it's not a question of musicians discussing luthier's prices or rates; it's a question of luthiers discussing prices and rates amongst themselves, which is technically illegal. Competitors discussing their prices becomes price fixing in no time.

Luthier #1: "I charge $3500 for a fretostat replacement"

Luthier #2: "Wow, I've only been charging $2000 (and I know my work is better than yours). I think I'll raise my price".

Luthier #1 "I think I'll raise mine too (because I know my work is way better than yours)."

Of course the above scenario is a bit ridiculous, but there is some truth there. And that's why the FTC is supposed to exist--to prevent monopolies and to foster unencumbered competition.

Your other point, that it is impossible to give an accurate estimate for a given job without at least inspecting the instrument is also valid.