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John Romey
06-25-2010, 04:15 PM
Hello!

I just picked this old girl up! She needs some restoration work and I'm shopping around to see who I want to fix her up for me (new bridge and probably take the top off to repair a few cracks in the top). Not much sagging in the top and otherwise looking pretty healthy!

In the meantime - I'd love to get some thoughts about where she might have came from! She has a sticker inside that says "Made In Germany - Made in Germany" but this looks too new to be original. I'm thinking a late 19th or early 20th c chech or bohemian . Any other thoughts?

I know I probably need to add some more photos so let me know what might be helpful. string length is 42 3/4!

Thanks

John Romey
06-25-2010, 04:24 PM
more photos

Ken Smith
06-25-2010, 05:04 PM
Well, the first thing that puzzles me is the varnish color and texture between the Top and the Back (as well as the sides and Scroll.) Usually the Top would appear to get older looking first but in this case at least from what I can see in the pictures it appears that the Back is older.

Ok, ok.. varnish issues aside as we don't know what's original, gone over or re-finished even, the Bass itself looks German from the 20th century. I would guess from just the pictures 50-100 years old, no more, no less.

Basses like this that were used in schools rather than in professional orchestras or something in between may not have been cared for so well over the years and the repairs maybe less than Strad quality work to say in the least.

Basses from their size and make qualities (of lack of) can age quite fast. Especially being banged around and then patched up by some fix-it guy or with that mentality because of the value of the bass at that time.

Bass like this when made could have sold for under $50 new and up to maybe $100. Flat back with little to no figure were at the low end. Unpurfled basses even lower. I have some old copies of import catalogs from USA distributors and you would be shocked to see what some bass sold for. Sears had Blockless Tyrol/German? Basses for sale for $7. a month. Yes, SEVEN DOLLARS or $75.oo Cash if paid in full at once. That was in 1937 just before the War. In 1922 Wurlitzer, a more exclusive shop for fine Violin family instruments was asking $90 to $180 for the best quality for these Tyrol type basses, slanted ffs and humped rib/neck joint hence blockless. Go figure!

It is possible that some early repairer refinished just the top and left the rest as-is. I have seen many bass Tops or just Backs refinished after major repairs and I am not talking student grade German import basses here. I mean fine old Italian and English masterpiece basses in the 6 figures now in value.

So, looks like old German/Bohemian, Markneukirchen/Shoenbach, northeast German/Czech border area.

Is there any figure in that wood, back, sides or scroll/neck? Is the neck grafter or original one piece? Any purfling in the Top of Back edges?

Measurements? My DB web pages (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/) show the normal areas to be measured. Ribs are ribs/sides, measured themselves inside the top and back as made and not including them. Bout widths, top and back length, string length and rib depth. These are the main numbers. Basses were made then as 1/2, 3/4 or 4/4. There were no basses made in commercial shops as 5/8 or 7/8 size. That is only an interpretation used today for marketing.

John Romey
06-25-2010, 05:18 PM
Wow a lot to respond to.. let me go get the tape measure!

i DO note that the purfling goes all the way around on both front and back and appears to be inlaid...

What do you mean by "figuring?"

Upper rib 6'
lower rib 7/5'
bout 7/5
top 43.5
back 43.5
SL 42.5

I think the neck is the original one piece with the old angle as well....

thanks!

John Romey
06-25-2010, 05:19 PM
Also any idea of the relative value once restored? i dont' want to put more into it than its worth~!

thanks

Ken Smith
06-25-2010, 06:15 PM
Also any idea of the relative value once restored? i dont' want to put more into it than its worth~!

thanks

Without a personal inspection I can't say. Putting in more than its worth is not all that uncommon. Repairing this bass or an Italian bass is the same per hour in a given shop.

John Romey
06-25-2010, 10:19 PM
Yeh - I've so far been lucky! I made some minor bridge adjustments myself and this bass sounds really great. I think bass bar is healthy and there are no cracks in the back so I think repairs could be minimal. Maybe one rib repair and a few top cracks... new bridge and i'm hoping it is good to go..... could be a great jazz bass..

John Romey
06-25-2010, 10:21 PM
oh and no soundpost crack.....

Ken Smith
06-25-2010, 11:00 PM
oh and no soundpost crack.....

The more you tell me the more I think this is 20th century rather than 19th century. The overall shape with the outer linings combined convinces me that my first impression is correct. This bass would be more of a German Shop bass than German School bass so this thread should be moved to that section. Imported basses recieving labels reading 'Juzek', 'Pfretzschner', 'Morelli' and the like are all re-branded Shop basses. I don't know what this was or when it came over here but it is along those lines rather than a hand made bass from a single maker.

With the body size and over 42" string length I would classify this as a mid-wars bass (between 1920 and 1936) German/Czech/Bohemian Germanic style Shop bass. The different colors of varnish are most likely altered by 'improvers' of the past.

Wait, not soundpost cracks? Look again. This thing is split all over the place. I would get in there with a light and mirror. It looks like a huge old crack pretty close to the Post and should get a post patch type repair to play it safe.
http://www.smithbassforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1682&d=1277497454

This Top has a crack near the soundpost, one coming up from the saddle towards the post and on both sides of the bass bar. You asked about its value fully restored? That type of work might easily exceed its value I am sorry to say.

Some refer to basses like this as 'players instruments'. Although they will never make it to the Museum, they will work well in the field in general.

John Romey
06-25-2010, 11:07 PM
Hmm.. sorry by soundpost crack I mean the back! I have had a bass restored with front cracks that seemed to be only a few grand to fix but ones on teh back when the crossbar has to come off I was told cost a lot more? Am I incorrect in this?

John Romey
06-25-2010, 11:18 PM
Yes I was aware of all those cracks when I purchased it. Some have been repaired and some have not - no saying anything for quality of workmanship. I'm going to take it to a shop to get it looked at soon I think and hopefully can get out of this for only 2-3k. So far I only have 1500 into the bass and i think it can be playable for 2-3k more......3500 for a bass like this could be a good price for a jazz workhorse I would say?

John Romey
06-25-2010, 11:19 PM
oh and thanks for all the help and information.. it has been very helpful!

John Romey
06-26-2010, 12:43 PM
Ken: What do you make of these tuners? They look original and that is what is throwing me about ago - I usually see those on older basses? Were they still using them mid-war?

Thanks!

Ken Smith
06-26-2010, 12:59 PM
Ken: What do you make of these tuners? They look original and that is what is throwing me about ago - I usually see those on older basses? Were they still using them mid-war?

Thanks!

Even post WWII, if they were in stock, they got used. Used sometimes I assume to make the bass seem older. Never date a bass by tuners alone. Putting old tuners on a new bass is not that uncommon.