Upton Basses

[Jeff Gellis]

Upton Basses....

I would love to hear what luthiers and other players think of them.

[Ken Smith]

In that range, the Calin Wultur Basses (http://www.jrmusicsupply.com/basses2.htm) are at least as good as any Upton Bass. From what I have been told, the Uptons are from Romania made in the Gliga shop just like the Plywoods from JR Music, maker of the Calin Wulters where E.Roy used to work. I bought 6 Corsini Basses for stock and was extremely impressed as were my customers who bought them. I think the Shens (http://www.cscproducts.com/) are made at least as good if not better than most Romanian Basses and the New Standard line (http://www.newstandardbass.com/) is another good option at over 4k.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I took my Upton Hybrid bass over to KC Strings recently at the owner's request. Micha said he had heard of the Uptons and would like to check out the competition. The first thing he did was pull one of his Romanian basses from inventory and compare. His bass, http://www.kcstrings.com/bass-rc-williams.html is fully carved, but bears a remarkable resemblance to my Hawkes apart from price.
Same dimensions, exact same scroll etc. There are differences.
The Hawkes lacks a horizontal bar across the back to support the soundpost and the bass bar is smaller, but Misha insisted that they are from the same family tree.
No less than five pro bassists in town have played my bass and given it the thumbs up. My teacher for one considered buying one as a backup.
Another, played several tunes on it at a jam session and raved about it's tone and playability. He thought it was too easy to play, preferring his Prescott lol. :D
I don't know how they would compare with the Calin Wultur basses, but I suspect neither would be embarrassed.

One of these days, Bob can give my bass his opinion. I would value that highly. Bob, let me know when you're feeling up to it.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Ken,
I agree that the Calin Wultur does look similar to the Upton basses and being fully carved, they may be better. They are also at least $1000 more. Quality has a price.
:(

[Ken Smith]

Ken,
I agree that the Calin Wultur does look similar to the Upton basses and being fully carved, they may be better. They are also at least $1000 more. Quality has a price.
:(

I was referring to this model (http://www.jrmusicsupply.com/basses.htm);

http://www.jrmusicsupply.com/photos/basses/542069B_euro_basic_L_f.jpghttp://www.jrmusicsupply.com/photos/basses/542069B_euro_basic_L_b.jpg

http://www.jrmusicsupply.com/photos/basses/542069S_cw_lam_sp_pan_f.jpghttp://www.jrmusicsupply.com/photos/basses/542069S_cw_lam_sp_pan_b.jpg

They are NOT $1,000. more. I think they list for around 2k.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I knew you would set me straight. That hybrid does look EXACTLY like my bass.:eek:
.................................................. ...............................................

Okay, I've settled down. I still like it and think it's a good bass for the money.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Ken,
I know you have experience with other Calin Wultur basses, but what is your experience with this particular model. I do value your experience here.

[Ron Lacey]

Ken, thanks for the info. This Gliga on ebay (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=5&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2FGliga-Workshop-Euro-Hybrid-3-4-Bass-Carved-Top_W0QQitemZ140089741345QQihZ004QQcategoryZ16222Q QcmdZViewItem&ei=jUTrRYOULJHWgwTQ59TGCQ&usg=__xyvIGg0iGjnlo5UhElLjVmL3WEk=&sig2=b-t1A5A-CAupKE2UMni5DA) is the spitting image of my Upton hybrid. It seems like the consensus is that the Gliga's are decent basses for the money. I always wondered where my Upton originated, but when I was talking with Gary Birkhamshaw before buying the bass he was cagey about where the bases came from. I'm not sure why he felt this needed to be a secret, seems like a positive point to me.

Anyway, to Jeff's original question; I've been pleased with my bass and I've gotten good comments from folks who have heard it. I like the sound and I find it easy to play. Part of the reason I went with Upton was the lack of local bass shops and little time to make road trips to bigger cities with any real selection of basses. Locally most of what I could find were 1/2 size basses since the only market is the local orchestra programs. There were a couple of 3/4 used Chinese laminates (not Shens) for a lot more than my budget and the shop had little interest in haggling.

I started out planning to spend $1500 on a Medio Fino laminate and talked myself into a Hawkes laminate at $1800. Then good news on my taxes last year and a little side income pushed me up to the hybrid Medio Fino at $2500. Had I realized that I was going to be in that price range in the beginning I'd probably considered some other options, but at my original budget of $1500 there were not a lot of choices, especially since I needed to get something that was reasonably well set up and playable and that I could get shipped to me. I could have done a lot worse and almost did until I came to my senses.

To be honest this is my first bass so I don't have the kind of experience that Ken or some of the other folks here have. It meets my current needs and I should be able to recover most of my costs if I do decide to trade up at some point.

[Ken Smith]

Ken,
I know you have experience with other Calin Wultur basses, but what is your experience with this particular model. I do value your experience here.

Personally I have not played one either by Upton or JR. I have talked to Rich at JR (the 'R' in JR) about these and others coming from Gliga and know a bit about them from the inside look as far as construction and Varnish. I was going to buy in the 3/4 sloped shoulder version some for a local School last year but the deal did not happen. I was between these and the Shens and it was a tough decision. I think either Bass would have filled the required needs but the School liked hearing "European Bass" better than "Chinese Bass" for around the same money.

Ron, that Ebay guy buys from JR so that may be the same Bass. You did just fine in your purchase and in the $2500 range. Rest assured, the market is limited and you found one of the better ones for that price.

In my Business I try to buy and represent only what I personally trust. The Calin Wulturs I brought in are fine Basses and if I have a problem, I just call Rich at JR and we work it out. With Shen Basses John is the guy I call over there but sometimes I talk to Paul whom I first met in 1997 with Sam. They too have great customer service.

When I went into this recent Bow business venture I called John and got some good advice from him. Luckily, I am dealing with a good Shop but the Culture is what you have to work with and not 'just' the Shop. If you ask for lower Priced goods and strip down the Bow (like Upton does with them) they will give you the lowest grade Sticks in the Barrel. If you demand only the highest quality and stay on their backs every shipment and pay the extra charges for these extra qualities, they will send you good stuff.

Basses and Bows can be very expensive especially coming from the BG/Slab world. An entry level DB is priced in the Boutique range of the BGs. A Boutique/Vintage/Classic (or anything else you can name it) is priced somewhere between a good Car and your House!

Makers/Suppliers have to struggle to get Basses made to sell for under 4k. I have talked to Arnold about this many times and have some understanding about his operation and why he does what he does the way he does it. The Necks he gets for the Standards are carved up at the Scroll only and the Heel/Block area is completely raw and un-shaped by the neck as well. These Necks can also be used as replacements for other Germanic Basses needing a new Neck as the Heel/Block area is at least 6" tall and ready to fit any Bass. This way, Arnold has total control of the Neck-Set and 'which' actual Neck goes into which Bass. With the Uptons from Gliga, the Necks are in the Bass already and you get only what he gets. For the price he sells them, I don't think 'Neck swapping' is on his option list. With the 'New Standard' Bass, you get what you pay for and the sound, well just TOO good for the money. I was there yesterday and heard one and mentioned that it sounded much more expensive than the price tag to 'MY' ear, for what that's worth..

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Thanks for clarifying. FWIW, I was really holding out for a hybrid LaScala but couldn't afford one. For the foreseeable future, my Upton labeled Romanian bass is just fine.

[Ron Lacey]

Thanks Ken, I'm a big believer in the old adage of "you get what you pay for" and among the instruments I own, my humble little bass is far and away the most expensive. But I've always tried to at least get something that can be played. There was some real sticker shock when I decided I just had to play bass.

In the meantime, I'll keep window shopping the many fine instruments you and others have posted. I just wish I was close enough to stop by and play one or two. Ah, that's probably not a good idea, that could be the next step on the slippery slope to me living in my bass bag while all my money goes to alimony, child support, and bass payments. :D

[Ron Lacey]

I finally got around to changing out the year-old Obligato strings and installed a set of Spirocore Mittels on my Upton hybrid. While the Spiros are still fresh and zingy, I think its pretty clear that this bass likes the higher tension strings (roughly about the same on the G, +5 lbs on the D, +9 lbs on the A, and +10 lbs on the E). More volume and a clearer fundamental. The bass seems to respond faster; and even with my very limited bowing skills, I find the Spiros as easy, or easier, to bow versus the Obligatos. With my current setup I can't detect any real difference in left or right hand effort. So for me, more and clearer sound with no more work. So based on a single sample point, if you have one of these basses or one of their Romanian brethren and haven't used a higher tension string, you may want to give them a try.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I agree that the Mittels are great on the Upton, but I prefer the Obligatos. They feel a lot nicer to me, although I do think the Mittels may have a bit more punch. Different strokes.

[David Powell]

If this is out of line, just can it. I don't have any problem with that. I think Upton's might be a little obscure about their sources because of how easy it would be for customers to deal directly with Romanian suppliers. And you can deal with them for about half the price of dealing with Upton. Factory Romanian instruments almost all come from one city. Up until the dissolution of the USSR, they were all built under one roof, now known as the Hora company. There have always been a few independent makers, but the more recent of these, like Gliga, were trained at the state factory in Reghin. So it stands to reason that any instrument coming from Romania, particularly lower price point instruments, is being built by similar methods, if not under the same roof. Buyers of instruments in quantity can probably specify a few small differences, like for instance an Upton Hawkes recently was shown with no notches in the f-holes (Of course that might have been oversight also). Also insturments can be purchased "in the white" and Upton does this so that they can add their own finish. Also they perform the service of setting up the bass.

By and large though, without exclusive contracts, Hora will supply to anyone waving cash. I actually pondered buying a whole shipping container full of Romanian instruments. If you know how to varnish violins and do the set-up and repair work, the import supplier is a no brainer. So it really comes down to the value of the service of the retailer / importer. Lots of violins and basses come out of Romania. Not all are created equally, but they can't be too far apart at entry level prices.

Also if we consider DB's in the white to be a commodity, Uptons can change it's supplier if the supplier is not well known. Suddenly the Hawkes could be made in Czech Republic, or anywhere else.

[Ken Smith]

If this is out of line, just can it. I don't have any problem with that. I think Upton's might be a little obscure about their sources because of how easy it would be for customers to deal directly with Romanian suppliers. And you can deal with them for about half the price of dealing with Upton. Factory Romanian instruments almost all come from one city. Up until the dissolution of the USSR, they were all built under one roof, now known as the Hora company. There have always been a few independent makers, but the more recent of these, like Gliga, were trained at the state factory in Reghin. So it stands to reason that any instrument coming from Romania, particularly lower price point instruments, is being built by similar methods, if not under the same roof. Buyers of instruments in quantity can probably specify a few small differences, like for instance an Upton Hawkes recently was shown with no notches in the f-holes (Of course that might have been oversight also). Also insturments can be purchased "in the white" and Upton does this so that they can add their own finish. Also they perform the service of setting up the bass.

By and large though, without exclusive contracts, Hora will supply to anyone waving cash. I actually pondered buying a whole shipping container full of Romanian instruments. If you know how to varnish violins and do the set-up and repair work, the import supplier is a no brainer. So it really comes down to the value of the service of the retailer / importer. Lots of violins and basses come out of Romania. Not all are created equally, but they can't be too far apart at entry level prices.

Also if we consider DB's in the white to be a commodity, Uptons can change it's supplier if the supplier is not well known. Suddenly the Hawkes could be made in Czech Republic, or anywhere else.

David, you always come up with this theory stuff. The price of the Raw un-varnished Bass is less than the work to be performed here once it arrives.

I suggest you buy your container of Basses and let us know how you do. It is easy to say these things but planing a FB and cutting a Bridge is not for the novice by any means.

I have some Basses coming in soon from the Gliga factory via JR Music. A Plywood Corsini style and a Hybrid Panormo (aka Hawkes) model but Varnished by the Calin Wultur shop. The Hybrid is Plywood back only with solid bent Maple Ribs.

Gliga and Wultur have ther own shops. It doesn't matter where they were trained. Also, I don't think everything from one country is exactly the same and that goes for Romania, Hungary, China Germany, Italy etc.

What matters is the final product, workmanship inside and out, materials and the final tonal musical results.

I will post pics in a month or so after they come in and I do the basic set-up. I will be fitting the Bridge (no adjusters), setting the Post and adjusting the playability and I advertise 'Basic set-up' only. I have my reasons for this and have been successful with it. I have heard too many stories or people changing Bridges, adjusters, Tail pieces, strings, end pins, and more to want to be part of that club. This way, I sell it playable and the customer can pick his favorite guy and not have to pay for it twice.

When you deal with the Likes of Arnold, Jeff or Nick it usually only needs to be done once. I have most of my personal work done by Arnold and then some by Jeff as he is available so you can take my word for it. Find the best guy for the Job, do it only once and avoid paying double.

I get offers from time to time for Instruments direct from Shops and usually look and then keep walking. It is a tough business to be in and I respect those doing it successfully.

David, this was a good topic to bring up. Would you buy an Upton and then take it to Arnold for his Bridge, Graphite Rods and new fingerboard adding almost 100% more to the cost or... Just buy from the guy who's work you like most?

I was going thru this same set-up thing myself a few months ago with my Mystery Bass. Biase is doing the work but now I like how Arnold has done a few Basses for me in the last couple of years. I was going to have Paul do the neck Graft, then take it to Arnold for Graphite rods and then back to Biase for the FB and completion. With the Bridge I was going to have it made Blank and then have Arnold put his adjusters in it.

THEN, I looked at My Gilkes Bridge cut by Biase in 1982 still good except the Neck was moved out and needed a taller Bridge AND my Martini has a Biase Bridge from 3 Years ago and looks and works fine..

Then I thought, no way!! Biase does and has done just fine for me since 1975 or so and just because Arnold has some new Hip stuff, there is no reason to take and split the Job from a veteran like Biase and maybe muddy up the waters relationship wise.

I called Biase and apologized for even thinking of doing that and told him I want his work all the way on that Bass as that was why I gave him the Job in the first place.

Ah.. did I go off topic here?:o

[Ron Lacey]

What matters is the final product, workmanship inside and out, materials and the final tonal musical results.


I just got back from a 2,000 mile road trip and having lots of time to think I came to the same conclusion. It's not relevant where shop XX gets the raw material, it's the final product that matters and if they're willing to stand behind it, that's what counts.


Ah.. did I go off topic here?:o

Probably, but it's your sandbox :D. It was a good point just the same. You're fortunate to have a selection of great luthiers to patronize. Out here in the wild west, there's one guy locally - a retired orchestra teacher who did a fine job on a setup on a violin for me a few years ago, but I don't know how his work is on a bass. He might be great, but for my first bass I wasn't prepared to take the risk. Now that I have some idea of what a decent setup should feel and sound like, I might give him a try on a second bass, if I could figure out how to hide a second bass from my wife :D

[Ken Smith]

You're fortunate to have a selection of great luthiers to patronize. Out here in the wild west, there's one guy locally - a retired orchestra teacher who did a fine job on a setup on a violin for me a few years ago, but I don't know how his work is on a bass. He might be great, but for my first bass I wasn't prepared to take the risk. Now that I have some idea of what a decent setup should feel and sound like, I might give him a try on a second bass, if I could figure out how to hide a second bass from my wife :D


I would like to hear from Arnold who is not only a player but one of the top Bass Luthiers in the country if not the world. Maybe there are 50-100 guys world wide who do his level of work and maybe only 5-10% can do better. Maybe it would be nice to make a list to see how many are out there BUT they must be at the level to restore old Classic Basses with good proven results.

On the Arnold thing, he has trained two other Luthiers that I know of. One is Zach Martin and the other is Jed Kriegel who works in the shop currently. Jed does great work as I have seen this for myself. Being 20+ years younger than Arnold, we will be looking to him in the future like some New Yorkers now see Gage and Merchant instead of Traeger who trained them decades ago. The trade must be passed on and on.

If your local guy does good set-ups, there is no guarantee he can do good restorations. That's like saying a person can patch a cut on the finger but can he do surgery on your Heart or Brain. In the Medical field they have specialists for every organ of your Body. In Bass restoration, although not as life threatening as medicine, you have one Restorer for everything. It's good to have someone who knows just about everything and who knows your Bass as your Doctor may know your body, hopefully.

[Ron Lacey]

If your local guy does good set-ups, there is no guarantee he can do good restorations.

I've never had a bass restored but after reading about the work you've had done, I totally agree. It appears to take both the skill to do the physical work, which looks to be at least a level or two beyond basic setup work, and more importantly, a deep knowledge of the instrument to know what is appropriate to do and what is not.

My local guy may have been fine for setup but the fact that the shop where he works had mostly 1/2 size basses, and the two 3/4 size basses on hand were way overpriced, made me reluctant. They mostly cater to the local school band and orchestra programs. I sure wouldn't take him a restoration without seeing examples of his work. To be fair, I haven't asked him to do any work on my bass and based on his reputation I'd expect him to be up front about what he thinks he can or can't do.

I'd be interested in Arnold's and Jeff's take on how to evaluate a luthier before committing to one; either for setup or restoration. Getting recommendations via internet discussion groups seems to work only for big cities and even those are sometimes scarce.

Now -- that's off topic :D. Feel free to move some of this over to the Lutherie section since it's independent of the seller of the bass.

[Jeff Gellis]

I have had the opportunity to compare my Upton Hawkes Hybrid to my teacher's 200 year old German carved bass. I started studying with Bassist extraordinaire, Mike Richmond. He played both basses and this is what I heard. FWIW

ARCO
200 year old German Bass - Very mellow top end, there was no lack of top end but it was very easy on the ears. Scooped mid range. That is, has a quality to the mid range that colors the sound in pronounced way. I would describe it as a distinct and unique voice for a double bass. Tight and full lowend. This bass disperses it's sound in a way that surrounds you. You get directionality from the mids and highs but the low end surrounds you, if that makes any sense.

Dec. 2006 Upton Hawkes Hybrid - 20% louder than the fully carved vintage bass, top end was very pronounced. Not obnoxious but not mellow. Midrange and bottom were pretty well balanced but without a distinct complexity or distinct personality. It sounds like a very good bass but not one that you would instantly be able to identify as having a completely identifiable character. This bass disperses it's sound very directionally.

Pizz.
200 year old German Carved Bass - tons of growl- holy cow. Great warm bottom. Midrange uniqueness less prevalent in pizzicato playing.

Dec. 2006 Upton Hawkes Hybrid - once again, substantially louder. More punch in the low end. I assume that's a function of the loudness difference. Brighter than the German Bass.

Conclusion
In the hands of Mike Richmond, that carved German bass sounds rediculously good. The distinct and complex character of the sound make listening to it a joy.
The Upton sounded very good. I mean very good. Not complex but still very musical and pleasing.
I guess a Beaujolais Noveau vs a fine red at it's prime would be the best comparison I can come up with. Certainly, not junk by any account and I will be able to grow musically with this bass.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Jeff,
Very interesting comparison and similar to my experience as well.
My teacher has two basses.
One, a 19th century carved bass, probably German. My Hawkes is much louder and fuller sounding, although it lacks the deepest fundamental of the older bass.
The other is a 7/8 carved Rodier that Bob Branstetter played for many years, so it is tuned to perfection. Both basses are wearing Obligatos at the moment. The Hawkes is about equal in volume and has a similar tonality, but lacks in a couple of areas. First, the Rodier is quicker. It has a pronounced edge to the attack where my bass is quite a bit slower. Second, my bass lacks the complexity of tone of the older and much more expensive bass. That said, In the few times I've been able to compare side by side, the Hawkes holds its own quite well.

One of these days or months I'll leave it with Bob for a few days to see what he can do to improve it, but I'm in no hurry. For a new bass it feels and sounds pretty darn good, especially for the price.

[Jeff Gellis]

Greg,
In my opinion, my bass got a lot better sounding after luthier Bill Merchant, got his hands on it. He moved the bridge a bite, he moved the sound post forward (towards the neck) approximately 1/2 inch. The bass came alive. This stuff is so subjective but my bass definatly sounded better than the way it came from the Upton Shop. I think your bass might benefit from having Bob do his thing too.

[Michael Case]

I don't wanna come off the wrong way, but I need to ask this question for my own satisfaction. If Upton has these basses built in a factory in Romania and all they do is varnish, add fingerboard, bridge, soundpost, end-pin, and set-up. What makes these basses so different than any other factory bass (hybrid or carved) in the same price range set-up by the luthier of your choice.

I'd like to know because I'm sort of considering a Professor bass or saving a bit more scratch and getting a NS LaScala Hybrid or carved if possible.

[Ken Smith]

I don't wanna come off the wrong way, but I need to ask this question for my own satisfaction. If Upton has these basses built in a factory in Romania and all they do is varnish, add fingerboard, bridge, soundpost, end-pin, and set-up. What makes these basses so different than any other factory bass (hybrid or carved) in the same price range set-up by the luthier of your choice.

I'd like to know because I'm sort of considering a Professor bass or saving a bit more scratch and getting a NS LaScala Hybrid or carved if possible.

"What makes these basses so different"?.. 'Nothing' really! These Basses I believe come from the Gliga workshop. Eroy used to work for JR Music who makes and sells the Calin Wultur (http://www.jrmusicsupply.com/basses.htm) line of string instruments. After moving to Upton (http://www.uptonbass.com/images/finishing/002.jpg), he brought his contacts with him from what I understand. JR offers this same Bass in both Hybrid and Plywood with two 'finish' choices. One is lacquer from Gliga and the other is Varnish from Wultur which is an upgrade.

I bought 6 Basses from JR and sold most of them already. I just ordered a basic ply and a hybrid upgraded. I am the only shop near Philly so I have to have Basses in all ranges. Having just high end doesn't get the job done if you are going to service the area with Basses for sale.

Not to advertise above but pointing out my 'first hand' experience is more believable than just theory. The NS Basses from AES (Arnold and Wil) are completely different. These are from Basses made in good shop Germany with the Necks shipped separate. Arnold's shop sets and fits the neck for proper angle and neck stand as well as carves the heel and neck stop to order. Upton doesn't put the neck in as you can see from the link above on Upton. (http://www.uptonbass.com/images/finishing/002.jpg)

What would I prefer if asked? Well, Upton has good to great lengths to try and corner this market flooding TalkBass with Ads and even threads and postings to back up their claims. I call it the TalkUpton website because I had trouble over there trying to discuss anything else without moderator interference to protect their 'income' from Upton. SO.. I would go with the JR for the lower price point or a Shen and then the New Standard Basses for the 'elite' type plywood, hybrid or even fully carved. I see no difference in a fullly carved Cleveland or La Scala model and lets say a Wilfer or Stoll Bass Grade or quality wise. The difference is that you get one of the top Restoration shops in the country doing the same neck set work as any member of the NY Philarmonic, Met Opera orch, NYC Ballet Orch, National Symphony, Boston Sym, etc as I have seen many old classic Basses in Arnolds shop getting work done. It's nice to know the 'elite' goes there as well as the beginner and intermediate players including all styles of playing. This is not something you will find at Upton otherwise it would be all over his website in his repair section as he does not get this clientele on a regular basis from what I have heard.

Choices are then Shen or JR in the 2k range and NS in the 4k and up. Deal with the best shop you can find. How can you tell which is the best shop? Ask the Bass section in your local Symphony who they trust their English, Italian and French Orchestra Basses with the most if price was no object.

An Upton Bass is a Gliga Bass without the Varnish, Fingerboard and with LaFaro copy FF holes which in my opinion is NOT a Prescott Bass. The name Hawkes and Professor are 'borrowed' from the English firm that contracted Basses mainly in Germany called 'Hawkes Panormo' in 3 grades being the Concert, Professor and Hawkes. The Hawkes is reported to be made in England but this is not 100% proven. Also, Basses were made in France under the name 'Riviere and Hawkes' (http://www.contrabass.co.uk/2299.htm) which mainly look like a French Jacquet Bass. I was offered a Bass for sale once that looked to be a 'Paul Claudot Bass' (http://www.contrabass.co.uk/2354.htm) but passed on it. Later it was sold and opened up only to discover it had and inscription inside the table marked 'Riviere and Hawkes'. Look at my Links just above and see how these two could be easily confused.

The higher shouldered JR Basses from Gliga are called a Panormo model as that's exactly what they copied to make the Hawkes over 100 years ago in England. I like original names and if you are going to copy something at least give credit where it's due. The Professor model was a lower grade than the Hawkes model made about 100 years ago. Upton is now reversing these two putting the Professor name in 'lights' as if it's some improvement.

[Michael Case]

I already have a Czech factory bass (hybrid Strunal). I've had the fingerboard, bridge, tailgut, replaced at Gage. So basically I have a bass similar to an Upton? I love the sound of my bass and don't feel a real need to make a sideways move. I think I'm going to take a trip to Gage, 30 minutes by subway instead of 2 or more hours to Connecticut, during the week (SPRING BREAK!) and look at some basses in the $5,000 range. Then I'm going to see if Arnold has a NS in stock that I can check out and take a drive to his place.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Ken,
I completely understand your comments and can't really argue the validity of any of them. However, a couple of things come to mind.
Finishes: If the basses come with either a lacquer or varnish (upgrade) finish, what is the price difference. The Uptons come with an oil varnish tinted to the customer's preference. This is their standard finish.
Comparing them to a NS is a fair comparison, but there is a significant price difference. Several top bassists in town, including a member of the KC Symphony, have played my bass and commented on the fine setup. None have mentioned any problem with the neck set. My teacher told me he had never seen as nice a bass for so little money. I'm not disputing the potential benefit of Arnolds methods; merely the practical benefits in terms of value. A LaScala is a beautiful bass, but twice the price of my Upton and certainly out of my price range.
FF's and Hype: I agree with you on this. Personally, I don't care at all how some designer came up with my FF's. Give me a classic design that fits the bass and don't make a big deal about it.
I do agree that Upton occasionally crosses the line on TB. They are trying to build a business and sell product. Were I in their position, I would like to think I'd lower the hype, but I can't say for sure.
Sizzle helps to sell the steak.:D
Due to the fact that I live in Kansas, much of what you are saying is theoretical anyway. There aren't any Shen, Wultur or NS basses within hundreds of miles of me. KC Strings offers a Chinese line that frankly doesn't compare. Another shop offers Eastmans on a special order basis carrying no stock. Then there are the guys like Branstetter who may have a bass or two on occasion. In my market, the supply is limited. Had I purchased a Gigla bass from JR for instance, by the time I paid shipping, and a full set up, the bass would have been much more than $2000.
The Upton came to me with a great set up, oil varnish in the color of my choosing for $2600. Even at the current price of $2900, I think they are a fair value given the level of set up offered. For me it was a good choice. If I lived in a larger city with more choices, I may have made a different choice.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

One more thing. Calling an Upton a Hawkes, Panormo or whatever has no significance with me. It's like the guy in Phoenix calling his bass 'Wan Bernadel' lol. They could have called my bass 'Design #1' for all I care.

But again, names do affect the marketability of products. Remember the Edsel?:D

[Ken Smith]

Here is the dealer list for JR; http://www.jrmusicsupply.com/stores.htm

I can see how availability can make the difference as well as free shipping offered but I just want to point out what is and what isn't and give some other options.

Of course their Basses have merits in their class. They are just not the only game in town, that's all.

[Michael Case]

I was asking if an Upton bass would be a reasonable upgrade for someone with a factory bass that has all the perks of an Upton (new fingerboard, bridge, end pin)? Or should I set my sites on something a little higher up the food chain (NS or older European bass in the same price range)?

I have seen so many Romanian basses with the same design as the Upton's. My school (City College of New York) recently purchased a 12 year old Romanian bass, with a very dark and antiqued finish for $10,000 my teacher went to Gage's and picked it out, needless to say it sounds fantastic. I know a player who has a 5 year old solid bass, also Romanian, very similar to the Upton that he paid about the same price they want for the professor. Personally I think the bass my school purchased WOULD be a reasonable upgrade soundwise, but the other Romanian I mentioned isn't that impressive. It just gets me thinking.

I'm very happy with my bass at the moment, but I know that an upgrade will serve me well in the future. I'm curious about Upton because of the price.

[Ken Smith]

I was asking if an Upton bass would be a reasonable upgrade for someone with a factory bass that has all the perks of an Upton (new fingerboard, bridge, end pin)? Or should I set my sites on something a little higher up the food chain (NS or older European bass in the same price range)?

I have seen so many Romanian basses with the same design as the Upton's. My school (City College of New York) recently purchased a 12 year old Romanian bass, with a very dark and antiqued finish for $10,000 my teacher went to Gage's and picked it out, needless to say it sounds fantastic. I know a player who has a 5 year old solid bass, also Romanian, very similar to the Upton that he paid about the same price they want for the professor. Personally I think the bass my school purchased WOULD be a reasonable upgrade sound wise, but the other Romanian I mentioned isn't that impressive. It just gets me thinking.

I'm very happy with my bass at the moment, but I know that an upgrade will serve me well in the future. I'm curious about Upton because of the price.

An upgrade from your Factory Bass should NOT be another Factory Bass which is what an Upton is actually. They don't make the Bass. Also, I am not sure their so called Oil Varnish is any better than what they could get directly from Romania. Jeff Bollbach finished his Pallota Lion (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Bollbach/Bollbach.htm) with oil Varnish using about 17 thin coats sun-dried between coats. Now that is better than a factory Varnish BUT the cost is greater than what Upton paid for their Bass in the white from Romania. I Highly doubt they put a tenth of the work into varnishing a plywood Bass. Also, WHO is doing this Varnish work? A Pro maker or a teenager from the skateboard park? Jeff's Bass was made for the ISB competition. Would Upton enter their 'hand oil varnished' 'Hawkes' (lol) in an ISB competition for the Judges to view their work for the world. I'm sorry but every time I hear the name Hawkes and Upton I have to take a deep breath because a Hawks Bass is actually a Hawkes Panormo copy supplied to Boosey & Hawkes or Hawkes & Son in London c.1880 - c1925 or so. The earlier dates yielding Riviere-Hawkes models made in Mirecourt France and the latter from Germany or a few maybe from London or finished in London.

The first thing a player does when testing out a Bass is playing over the shoulders to get up to thumb position. The Dragonetti (a standard piece) requires playing harmonics way past the fingerboard on all strings but the E. The Hawkes shape is not one I would buy for this kind of work. Why make a modern Bass or maybe promote one that has a shape that has caused so many Basses to be cut-down in order to play the upper registers?

Anyway, as you can see I am not much of a fan of Uptons in any shape or form, sorry. Some of it is personal from how I was 'muted' over on TalkBass by the mods when I got into discussions and even had a post deleted by them because it pointed the finger 'in gest' mind you at their tactics to get attention. Even if their Bass was the better of the two from the JR version, I would not do business with them. That's my personal opinion.

Now, back to your upgrade question again. Tell us your budget with or without trade and you will get some suggestions. If you don't know Paul Biase in NYC, then PM me for his info. He IS the top shop in NY for high grade Basses and has a few mid and lower cost Basses as well. I know him for 35 years and would be dealing with him if I were still living in the city. As a matter of fact, he is restoring my Mystery Bass besides us working together on some other sales or Basses, Bows and even Violins. From a Juzek Bass to a Strad Violin, this is all common ground for Biase. If you like, feel free to show some pics of your current Bass in the designated Forum (http://www.smithbassforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=16).

[Michael Case]

My budget right now is in the $5,000 area, it could go a bit higher if the right bass comes along. As for a trade I was hoping to keep my old bass as a back-up to whatever new bass I purchased. I see that ideal has two Wilfer # 10's for about that and I know Gage has a few basses in that range. I'd like to see what Basie has to offer as well.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Jeff Bollbach finished his Pallota Lion (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Bollbach/Bollbach.htm) with oil Varnish using about 17 thin coats sun-dried between coats. Now that is better than a factory Varnish BUT the cost is greater than what Upton paid for their Bass in the white from Romania. I Highly doubt they put a tenth of the work into varnishing a plywood Bass. Jeff's Bass was made for the ISB competition. Would Upton enter their 'hand oil varnished' 'Hawkes' (lol) in an ISB competition for the Judges to view their work for the world.

Jeff's bass is considerably nicer than 99.999999 % of the basses out there. To compare the varnish on a $2900 instrument is just inane. :eek: Would they enter a $2900 bass for the ISB to judge???? Of course not.

There are a lot of choices available to anyone considering a bass. You have a personal bias against Upton, and I know you aren't alone, but they do have many satisfied customers.

Don't worry about me turning this into TB. I have always said that I have been happy with my bass and think Upton merits consideration in the price range. If I had twice the money, I would probably be playing a NS, BTW. I know exactly what you are talking about over on TB and I partially agree, but running down the competition isn't becoming. The Ken Smith I've come to know and respect is bigger than that. :D There's plenty to go around.

[Ken Smith]

Jeff's bass is considerably nicer than 99.999999 % of the basses out there. To compare the varnish on a $2900 instrument is just inane. :eek: Would they enter a $2900 bass for the ISB to judge???? Of course not.

There are a lot of choices available to anyone considering a bass. You have a personal bias against Upton, and I know you aren't alone, but they do have many satisfied customers.

Don't worry about me turning this into TB. I have always said that I have been happy with my bass and think Upton merits consideration in the price range. If I had twice the money, I would probably be playing a NS, BTW. I know exactly what you are talking about over on TB and I partially agree, but running down the competition isn't becoming. The Ken Smith I've come to know and respect is bigger than that. :D There's plenty to go around.

Not really trying to run them down as you put it unless they have been placed a bit too high for the claims they make as well as the other boasters echoing their claims. This being the Varnish issue for one. Yes Jeff's is one of the best Varnish jobs you can get BUT why does Upton brag about doing it themselves? Are they better than a real Bass maker in the Gliga shop that Varnishes for a living day in and day out? I will be getting two Basses from JR soon that has both the Gliga Varnish and the Wultur upgrade they offer on the Gliga supplied Plys and Hybrids. Then I will know better what Romania has to offer. The 6 Basses I got before were all nice in the Varnish department but Spirit and not Oil and as you mention a $2900 Bass 'retail' why would they ever bother varnishing it themselves unless the shop finish was just not good at all? What level of finish professionally actually goes on that Bass from Upton?

The Upton line has their merits and their place in the market. That is obvious but to see so much praise by some first time Bass buyers should be taken for face value. If we start to see a bunch of French, English and Italian Basses for sale on Ebay from the Philly Orch, NY Phil etc. and the Bass sections filling up with Upton 'Hawkes' Plywoods and Hybrids, THEN and only then will these boasting claims have any real merit earned to get my attention.

Until then, they are no more than another Shop Brand Bass with some overly promoted features that easily join the ranks of more modestly promoted brands and products offered by Shen, JR, New Standard and a few others. Hey, let's not forget that a Kay Bass in decent condition with the Neck moved out will be a good buy as well, ok?:D

One thing that used to bother me personally over on TB was all this excitement and bragging about these great plywood and Hybrid Basses with Upton included in the mix. I rarely got a fraction of the excitement introducing a Dodd, Gilkes, Prescott or other great REAL handmade classics than what we saw when the new Home Depot Hybrid hit the store shelves.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Fair enough. We pretty much agree.

[Jeff Gellis]

I would like to direct this post at Ken mostly.

I want to preface my remarks by saying that I have no stake in Upton other than I own one. I have the utmost respect for you Ken and your electric basses. Your knowledge of DB is the reason why I come to your forum.

I guess the original purpose of the post was to find out about other peoples opinion of these instruments. No one ever said that these are rarified instruments or that they are better than anything else available. In fact, I am a recent convert to DB as you know. I went out in search of a student instrument to learn on. I didn't want to be one of those jerks-offs that can bearly play and buys a Ken Smith top-of-the-line bass. Or a guy that buys a 200-year-old carved bass and doesn't know where the first position is. Other players would shake their heads and say "how about learn to play first". Fair comment.

Many of us on this forum are musicians and business people too. As an entrepreneur, you know that making a great product is only one part of the equation. Marketing, creating brand awareness, creating demand based on the power of the brand is just as big, if not bigger, part of being successful with bringing a product to market. You seem to be resentful that Gary (Upton) has done such a good job with that part of his business. I think he should be applauded, strictly from a capitalistic point of view... great execution on that part of the program.

As far as TB goes, we are all painfully aware of the shortcomings of that forum and it does not suit my purpose to turn this into a TB bash session. Hey we are on Ken Smith's Forum now, aren't we? Enough said.

None of this really has to do with the quality of the bass of coarse. I guess what I wanna say is that this instrument represents a really good choice for a player that wants a quality instrument at an introductory price. I have come to that opinion only after my bass teacher, Mike Richmond (http://www.mikerichmondmusic.com), said "wow, this is a great bass, What did this cost? Jeff, you did well." I guess the point is he validated my choice. Before that, I had no basis on which to judge. Who cares and why is it that important that the bass came from Gliga, Romania? I personally don't care where it came from.
If others think another manufacturer has another valid product at the same price point, discuss that option.

What makes Uptons special? I guess they occupy a place in the bass food chain (not exclusively) where a young or new player can get a playable instument that sounds very good for little money. The special part is that there are only a few other options out there as has been pointed out by the posts on this thread. In the same breath, all the bass builders on that short list would also be considered special by that yard stick.

Any teacher would be pleased to see an Upton, Shen or Wulter or (fill in the other names) in their students hands as opposed to a junk bass that is sold on Ebay for $495.

As far as marketing ability and execution, Upton is special. No other DB builder (assembler, whatever) really has achieved the visibility Upton has (to my knowledge). If you don't care for them on that basis, I'm not sure it has anything to do with the intent of the question I originally posted.

[Michael Case]

Let me interject by saying this. I think you're responding to a lot of what Ken was saying in reply to my question asking if an Upton would be a reasonable upgrade to my Czech factory bass.

[Ken Smith]

Jeff, referring to the end of your Post let me say a few things here.

1) Where would Upton be if there was no TalkBass?

2) Did you know he made a deal for the upper banner on TB and EVERY DB Forum of TB and TB will not even discuss sharing it?

3) Did you know he also bought for 2 or more years all the extra bandwidth on the Upper Side Banner on Every DB Forum as well and TB would Not sell anyone else anymore ad space because Upton made a deal that no one else can advertise there? BTW, This year, Upton is no longer paying for that space but too many people are bitter about the TB/Upton monopoly and will not advertise there anymore.

4) Did you know I tried to buy Banner Space on TB for my Bows and was refused because Upton owned ALL the bandwidth?

5) Did you know that Mods carefully watched what I or others in the Business said about Upton and warned, edited or deleted Posts that looked unfavorable to Upton or even closed Threads that got heated?

6) Did you know that TB on Uptons behalf tried to control a specific image of them in order to secure their advertising monies from Upton?

7) Did you know that my leaving TB was a direct result from a Mod deleting my Post questioning a 'Shill' (planted endorsee) posting about their stripped down overpriced Chinese Bows?

8) Did you know that both Upton and myself buys Bows from the same shop but with the exception of my design and we/KSB only takes the highest grade sticks NOT stripped down?

9) Did you know Upton posted on threads about my Bows on TB to get attention drawn to their own products?

I have nothing personal against Upton Products at all, period.

This Forum exists mainly because TB made me sick from their actions and I still have a lot of friends and customers that want to Talk real Bass so here we are, no Bull, just Bass.... Commercial Free as well!

[Jeff Gellis]

I still have a lot of friends and customers that want to Talk real Bass so here we are, no Bull, just Bass.... Commercial Free as well!
Touche Ken! And you know a lot about the bass and always willing to share some great tidbits and anticdotes.

One other thing, it's a fine line between preditory and crafty business practice. Many applaud Bill Gates as the businessman of the century. Certainly, you can't argue with what he has accomplished. His competitors call him ruthless and preditory. Is all fair in love & in war (business too)? Also, in a free market, doesn't the "Darwinesk nature" of natural selection make those that are best adapted to competing in business the ones that survive? I'm not defending Upton. I am simply making the point that the challenge is to be the best at marketing (provided you have a good product).

[Michael Case]

The problem is the marketing is superior to the product. And it's gotten to the point at TBDB where a person can't ask about or give an opinion about a bass with out Upton getting defensive. There have been threads in the basses section over there where the Upton people didn't even answer specific questions asked by an original poster. When I challenged this it turned into a big flame war. The days of getting good advice about purchasing an instrument at TBDB are over, unless you are ONLY interested in an Upton bass.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Yes,
Gary Upton made a sweet deal over on TB and got his name plastered all over there. As a businessman trying to sell his product he has done a tremendous job. If the network airing the Super Bowl made an exclusive deal to air ads only by Ford and froze GM out, we'd be applauding Ford for making such a deal.
I certainly wouldn't fault the network. However, an internet forum such as TB has an obligation to ensure to its members that it is completely fair to all concerned so that there is a free exchange of ideas and information.
I would think the beef really is with TB in not keeping the Forum open and free. Yes, they show favoritism, although NS and Wan Bernadel basses have ad space. A certain distinction here is that the other advertisers don't openly discuss their products on the forum.

All this said, this discussion is really about how a particular dealer conducts their business. FWIW, they have always treated me fairly and I have a nice bass. That's what it all comes down to. Everything else, to me, is secondary.

Let's keep this place open and free where we can all agree to disagree. Time for a beer.:D

[Michael Case]

Time for a beer.:D


Like my dad always says "it's 5:00 somewhere!" :p

I feel you, personally the Upton basses aren't what I need at this point. It's pretty wild though I live minutes away from David Gage, Paul Basie, Ideal Music, and I can spit and find a good bass for sale on the block I live on, but the Upton is so aggressive in getting their name out I almost forget my options. At this stage in the game Upton is not an option for me.

[Jeff Gellis]

Let's keep this place open and free where we can all agree to disagree. Time for a beer.:D There exists an air of civility here that TB could only dream about. Great reparte!

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

The problem is the marketing is superior to the product. And it's gotten to the point at TBDB where a person can't ask about or give an opinion about a bass with out Upton getting defensive. There have been threads in the basses section over there where the Upton people didn't even answer specific questions asked by an original poster. When I challenged this it turned into a big flame war. The days of getting good advice about purchasing an instrument at TBDB are over, unless you are ONLY interested in an Upton bass.

I agree with you, and I must admit that I have been in the middle of a couple of those flame wars, but those days are over. I will have to disagree with you regarding the marketing. Their basses are worth the money and I would and have put my bass up against much more expensive instruments without embarrassment. However, there are many other choices in the price range of an Upton meriting consideration and to pretend that an Upton is the best bass on the market is folly. Good bass for the money and a solid value? IMO yes.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I feel you, personally ..........

You'll need to buy me a beer first.:D

[Michael Case]

I don't disagree with your assessment of Upton's basses, they are damn fine instruments for the bread.

[Michael Case]

You'll need to buy me a beer first.:D

I guess the bass player thing wont work on you eh?

[Ken Smith]

The problem is the marketing is superior to the product. And it's gotten to the point at TBDB where a person can't ask about or give an opinion about a bass with out Upton getting defensive. There have been threads in the basses section over there where the Upton people didn't even answer specific questions asked by an original poster. When I challenged this it turned into a big flame war. The days of getting good advice about purchasing an instrument at TBDB are over, unless you are ONLY interested in an Upton bass.


Thank you for shedding light from another pair of eyes other than mine.

To Jeff, in a Microsoft thing, they don't BUY the media and have them shut the rest of the competition up when they speak like TB does being his own 'Junk Yard Dog'. TB Refused to sell me advertising because as they Put it, Upton OWNS all the available bandwidth.

In the real world, this is known as 'anti-trust' tactics.

"Even a broken clock is right twice a day!"

[Michael Case]

There are some more shadier marketing tactics that Upton uses. I don't wish to go into it on a public forum, but I know for a fact this is so.

[Ron Lacey]

There exists an air of civility here that TB could only dream about. Great reparte!

Yeah, this is pretty disgusting ;). If you guys don't start some decent flame wars I may have to go talk to my wife.:eek:

[Michael Case]

Flame on:
Why is talking to your wife better than being on this board? :mad: :D :rolleyes: :eek:

[Drake Chan]

As long as we're being free here, let's not forget that this is Ken's site, and that he will definitely push his products here. :D

At the same time, there's no pretending here that this is a totally impartial site like TBDB seemed to claim. It was a good site with good information, and it still is. But some things just started to get to me.

There was that whole saga of flaming one another in one of the threads. This has happened at least more than once. Once everything died down, it was better.

But the one thing that really got to me was in the "Strunal vs. Upton" thread.

Within the thread, someone asked whether to get a bass from Upton or a Strunal setup by a local luthier. Now I didn't really know the luthier, but it seems like a few people did and said he did good work. I though at that point that the luthier seemed okay, and I posted that the guy should try both basses (or more) before buying. I think at this point, Michael Case started to challenge Upton.

Anyway, a few posts later, Gary implicitly claimed that one of the posters before who praised the Strunal, with the name "mike" within his username, was really the luthier himself, who also happened to be named Mike, and was posting separately as a shill. At this point, the luthier himself wrote a post in angry, formal letter form in response to Gary and everyone else to try to clear his name.

Eventually, everything calmed down. The "shill" was a kid named Mike who studied with the luthier. People came down to the point of actually trying out the basses before buying.

[Drake Chan]

In my opinion, the world of Internet forums is no different than the real world in many respects. One respect is that people will form friendships and will be able to speak with each other in an informal, friendly way.

Another respect is that these friendships can become cliques, and that these friends will stick with each other if anyone ever threatens one of them or their ideas. Things can become very contentious if this happens.

So for future references, you could state your own opinion, but it is almost never going to be completely respected and honored unless they are the general opinion of the masses or you are able to defend your opinion successfully and coherently.

[Drake Chan]

As for Upton Basses, I feel that they are a solid, reputable company. If you call them, they will take the time to talk to you about whatever you have a question about. I remember going up to Mystic once, and talking with one of the luthiers, Jack, for about an hour or so on all sorts of things I wanted to know about the bass. I guess I just like talking about basses, and Jack was very patient.

In this day and age of music companies ripping students and beginners off with crappy instruments, they lend a fresh breath of quality and value in many of the instruments and services they provide.

At the same time, they're business practices are indeed questionable. While they lend this "fresh breath", we must not forget that we have many other options out there. It is never Upton vs. crappy music companies, and no one else.

One example is our host, Ken Smith. This is a man who has done years of research on double basses and bows just because he truly enjoys it. And he sends this knowledge down to us free of charge. He is of strong opinion, but only because he has already done his homework. We double bassists have a hard time finding any information or resources on our instrument that violin players and bass guitarist will easily find.

I went down to Ken's workshop in Perkasie to try out bows once. His shop closed down about 4:30 or so in the afternoon, but I didn't get there till about 4:40. Many employees were still there, but they all eventually left after 5:10 or so. Ken stayed there talking with me until 7:30, well after closing time. He let me try out several basses and bows, taught me how to audition bows, talked about how to play better, and talked about his basses. He even taught me to use the "Italian" grip with the French bow.

But the one thing that stands out was that he was willing to talk to someone he never even met before for hours. As for his bows: his brazilwood bow blew my Upton $99 bow out of the water. I've recommended this bow to any kid that I've seen with a Glasser fiberglass bow.

[Michael Case]

Hello Drake, I don't really want to get to involved with explaining things so here is the short story. I got into a heated discussion, with a poster who instead of honestly answering questions regarding an opinion about either Upton or ANY other bass all he will do is question an opinion that doesn't support Upton. That is what got to me in the thread you described above.

In another thread a poster located in Ireland asked if people could recommend a bass that was comparable to Upton, but available in Europe (since he didn't think ordering a bass online from the states and having it shipped to Ireland efficient). So I recommenced Strunal as they are a European company. That's when the Upton guy questioned the validity of my recommendation and talking about how he felt Upton basses were superior to Strunals. Yet he never answered the question. It got me angry because that kind of blatant sales tactic is exactly what has ruined TBDB. In the fall out I took some actions that led to me deleting my posts, but also the Upton guy deleting his posts in that thread too.

I'd started another thread that showed some very insight into the advertising tactics of UB it got some reads and replies and led to the Dr. deleting his posts in our heated thread. I deleted the thread I started after about 15 to 20 minutes fearing it may have been inappropriate, but it proved a point in the brief time it existed.

Anyway, I didn't post this to start a war or anything, and I don't wish to go further into detail about my knowledge of UB's sales tactics.

[Jeff Gellis]

Thank you for shedding light from another pair of eyes other than mine.

To Jeff, in a Microsoft thing, they don't BUY the media and have them shut the rest of the competition up when they speak like TB does being his own 'Junk Yard Dog'. TB Refused to sell me advertising because as they Put it, Upton OWNS all the available bandwidth.

In the real world, this is known as 'anti-trust' tactics.
You are 100% correct. That reflects badly on TB not Upton, in my opinion. They should encourage advertisers from any reputable source. Shutting out a particular company does not seem right. That's a business decision they feel is profitable for them I guess? Who knows?
In the case of Microsoft they have the goods and infrastructure that no one else really has. In the case of available DBs at this price point, there are a few viable options, and your point is that no competition is possible because of TB willing to sell all ad space to one vendor. I see your point.

[Sam Sherry]

I've watched this thread with interest as it involves so many people I respect.

UPTON BASS:

It's no secret that I'm Gary Upton's pal. I'm also his lawyer (which doesn't matter here. I'm just noting it as "full disclosure." I'm not trying to intimidate anybody. If you feel intimidated by this post you need a better social life.)

Gary's been a real friend and has gone out of his way repeatedly to treat me well. He has treated the people I've referred to him well. One of the things that I most like about Gary is that, like Ken Smith, he's a guy with a healthy dose of ambition about his business. That is a compliment in my eyes and is meant for both of them.

As far as I know, there are several factories in Romania. I don't know which factory builds for Upton and I sure as heck don't know who builds for JR/Ken/lots of others. I don't know that it's the same and I don't know that it's different. Don't assume that Gary's stuff is the same as Ken's, JR's and vice versa even if you discover that it comes from the same factory. If you're buying a bass, do research. Compare. Try to play the bass you're buying if possible. Just because people say it all the time doesn't mean it ain't true.

Rumor has it that there are people who don't like Gary as much as I do. So be it. The same is true of me and just about everybody else I've ever met (with the exception of Paul Warburton). I take it all with a grain of salt. You don't have to. It's the web. Do your research. Form your own conclusions. Be open to change.

TALKBASS.COM

It's also no secret that I used to be a moderator on TB/DB and that one of the main reasons I stopped was dis-satisfaction with the commercial posting policy and commercial activity on the site generally. You can make of that what you will. Chris FitzGerald continues to impress me as a person and as a musician.

My general observation about the site is that things do go in cycles. People come; people learn; people go. Sometimes they fade out and sometimes they leave with a bang. Whatever.

One of the things I REALLY LIKE about Ken's site is that there's a strong chance that people are accurately identified by name. I am a big supporter of the notion that the accuracy and value of online advice is increased when people don't hide behind aliases. Bravo to Ken for doing it right. Bravo to Ken for being upfront about what he thinks and above all for formulating his opinions based on personal experience.

One of the things I don't like about this thread is that I think it's not classy to talk down about another forum. That's my opinion and y'all are free to do whatchya want. As for me, I'm gonna practice . . . .

[Ken Smith]

Very well spoken Sam. I liked and agreed with everything you just said. You are a true Diplomat with often with some 'realism' in your tone.

I DO NOT want to turn this into a bashing either so I say it now; Speak your piece or hold onto it, which ever suits you best BUT don't bash TB or UPTON here.. Please! Discussions are fine about how each person sees things but TB IS the main Worldwide Bass Forum regardless of who agrees.

Maybe the business of TB and Upton has been one sided but that is Paul's house and he can invite whom ever he wants over for dinner and drinks.

On another note in emailing back and forth with Paul during my departure, Paul offered me his help in any way with the 'vBulletin' software if the need ever came. That was a very nice gesture and generous as well especially in the spirit or which I left TB in or lack thereof.

As Sam mentioned, this is a good venue being we use real names here and sets in place a level of Class in the Themes and Conversations. Let's not ruin this by turning it into a verbal brawl against TB or Upton.

On another note, I feel relieved that Sam, Upton's lawyer didn't go legal here.. Wheww.. another narrow escape..:eek:

Thank's Sam, you are always welcome here..;)

[Michael Case]

As always Sam, spoken like a true gentleman.

This forum inspired me to use my real name over at TB. It really does affect the way you post when your real name is behind it.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Very well stated.
People are people and we are flawed in some way or another. While I think it may be reasonable to acknowledge shortcomings or to criticize someones behavior, it should never be done without the admission that we all fall short of the ideal. Ken excepted.;)

Gotta get ready for my first gig tonight with one of the top Big Bands in town. These guys play some of the hardest *&%^ imaginable including several Maynard Ferguson charts; and that's some of the easier material.:eek:
Wish me luck so I don't flame out.:D

[Michael Case]

Good luck on your gig. Sounds like it'll be a blast, literally.

[Jeff Gellis]

I One of the things that I most like about Gary is that, like Ken Smith, he's a guy with a healthy dose of ambition about his business. That is a compliment in my eyes and is meant for both of them.

I echo this sentiment and applaud anybody with enough drive to get out bed in the morning and try and make a go of the business world and find time to make music as well.
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Competition is a good thing and we all benefit from it. We benefit by the exchange of info, the constant pushing the envelope to improve available products and, I know you will agree when I say, we are also entertained by the spectical of it all as evidenced by this thread and this forum.

Greg- how was the gig?

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

The gig was the most fun I've had in a long time, but kinda in a high pressure situation. I read two full sets of charts I had never seen before ; a couple being five pagers at about 250bpm. The best part was when the leader called a tune and counted off a tempo by snapping his fingers. As one of the trombone guys said, "that's kind of slow", the 1st trumpet guy yelled out, "dude, that's not quarter notes, but full bars"!

A big part of improving as a musician is playing with other musicians that make us sweat a little. To be challenged by guys who are fun to be with makes it a whole lot easier.:D

One final thought: Isn't it really all about the music? This 'inside baseball' stuff is just a sideshow IMO. We can all come together and enjoy playing bass.

[Corey DiMario]

First of all let me say that I'm new here in this forum and have spent the past few days reading through as many of the threads as possible. It's a great site with many knowledgeable and generous bassists and luthiers offering up their services for all to read. I look forward to interacting and learning while being here.

I will say that I am kind of shocked to learn about all of the feuds and animosity between folks here and over at TBDB. I don't know the whole story, and quite frankly, i don't care. I'm here to learn and to interact with my fellow bassists and I'm staying out of that stuff.

Anyway, not to beat a dead horse or bring up any bad feelings, but I thought I'd give my opinion, for what it's worth, on the whole affordable plywood and hybrid basses out there today subject. Whether it's a New Standard, one of the fine looking Romanian or Chinese basses Ken Smith has to offer, an Upton or any other cheap (5K and under) bass, the choices today for bass players in this market are staggering. The quality, sound and playability of all of these basses, from what I have both seen in person and read about is so much higher than what I had to start out with when I was first learning. When I was first starting, there just weren't these kinds of options, at least that I was aware of. You simply went with whatever the local shop had to offer in your price range, which is more like settling for a poorly set up piece of junk than choosing an instrument. We should all be glad that aspiring bassists can so easily get their hands on a well setup, decent sounding, entry level bass to start learning. Bravo to all of the fine luthiers and shops doing their best to get good basses into the hands of players!

For full disclosure, I own an Upton Hawkes Laminate and for what it is, it's great and I've been very pleased with it. It's my main axe on the road and does the job wonderfully for the kind of music I play. Would I take it to audition for the symphony? Probably not. I don't think anyone is suggesting that. I was in the market for a plywood bass for the road and I checked out a bunch of basses and in my price range and within a reasonable drive form where I live, it was the best option for me. I personally wouldn't buy a bass sight unseen and have it shipped, but I'm also lucky to be on the east coast, a short drive from some great shops. Upton is not the only choice and as you say, Ken, the New Standards are a "different breed" but that comes with a price, and I wasn't in the market to drop 5K at the time. I was in the market to spend 2K and the Upton was the one I liked best after playing a bunch of basses.

One thing that used to bother me personally over on TB was all this excitement and bragging about these great plywood and Hybrid Basses with Upton included in the mix. I rarely got a fraction of the excitement introducing a Dodd, Gilkes, Prescott or other great REAL handmade classic of what we saw when the new Home Depot Hybrid hit the store shelves.In regards to this comment, I think it only makes sense that these low cost plys and hybrids attract so much attention. Most players, myself included, can only dream of getting a chance to play on, let alone own a master quality bass like the ones you own and sell, Ken. You are clearly a perfectionist and connoisseur and the world needs people with your experience, knowledge and skill both as a player and as a luthier and shop owner. However, the truth is that you are passionate about a class of bass that only really affects a small fraction of the bassist out there. What am I going to say about those basses that you or others with a knowledge base and experience to match yours haven't already said? Most of us simply drool over the pictures, read what you have to say about the basses to learn a bit and move on. You are driving and selling Ferraris and most of us are in the market for an affordable and reliable Honda.

Now, with low cost, instruments, a lot more people have played them and even if they haven't, people feel more comfortable joining the conversation without feeling dumb or inferior. That's what these forums are for, right? to get everyone talking and offering up opinions so we can all learn more.
Plus, it's fun to be excited about an instrument that one actually has a chance of owning.

Anyway, just my two cents. Glad to be here.

Corey

[Ken Smith]

Only your 2 cents? Gee, I would duck if it were a dollar's worth..lol :eek:

Yes, I do have a passion for these great Basses and I understand the lack of contribution and the reasons why.

With that said, I brought in some Hybrid and Plywood Romanian Basses for the local market here, sold out of them and am just now re-stocking.

When I was starting out the Plywood Juzek at Juzek/Metropolitan in NY was $150. A used older German carved or flat Back 50-100 years old was about $100-$200 depending. The Juzek carved Basses stated at $200. In my early days we had some Basses as well but not the selection we have today.

As far as any of the feuds you referred to above yes, it's just no healthy to go into it in detail. Some of it is business and some of it is personal so we can just move on and let it rest.

There are more Bass players today I think than ever before. Lower cost Basses allow more semi-interested players to get involved in the 'sport' than they could before if the Basses were the same and inflated to todays economy.

Fair competition is always healthy for business all around. I say Fair with a capitol 'F'. The Guitar business has a much bigger problem with this than the DB field any day of the week.

Thank's for posting. Good conversation is always healthy, or visa versa..;)

[Corey DiMario]

thanks for responding, Ken. It's interesting to have a sense of the prices on juzeks and other basses "back in the day." ;)

Next time I'm down your way and have a few minutes to spare I'd love to drop by the shop and see first hand some of the instruments you have there.

[Matthew Tucker]

it's fun to be excited about an instrument that one actually has a chance of owning.

Right on Corey http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/smilies/actions/2thumbsup.gif

[David Powell]

Well, I wasn't going to open this one back up, but at an open mic about a week ago, I finally saw, heard, and played a fellow player's Upton Hybrid. Those don't get down here to Atlanta too often and it is easy to see why. In all honesty, I can't say there was anything special at all about that bass. Both bass shops here that I visit regularly have basses that will blow the Upton off the map for about the same $$. It wasn't a bad bass, it just wasn't any better than the average bass that shows up there. That would include several all laminated basses as well as some Christopher hybrids (which IMO, all sounded far better), a hybrid Eastman (quite similar to the Upton in a lot of ways by sound but just looks better built), a plywood Johannes Kohr (sp?) that actually shouldn't sound nearly as good as it does. The really good sounding basses I've heard at that club were either older carved German basses or carved Hungarian basses.

I think if someone (Michael Case for example) has a Strunal, he might already be ahead quality wise. The owner of this particular Upton bass (it was the bigger shouldered hybrid one, not the Hawkes, and about a year old) was not that thrilled with it either and was already looking for upgrades. That fellow was a really good player, IMO.

I'm not saying the Upton is a bad bass, it just comes no where close to living up to the TB hype. The fellow running the open mic (a very accomplished bassist in his own right) told me he has seen / heard / played 3 or 4 of them and he wasn't too impressed at all.

As far as the "finished to the customer's choice" option;- take the factory finish on the Gliga whatever that is or the upgraded Wulter finish. I had my nuclear nitrocellose (Ken's favorite cheap finish ;) ) Kremona there to compare and I'd prefer that any day to whatever was on the Upton. There were quite a few bassists at that particular jazz open mic and it is heavily attended by Georgia State College jazz program musicians. From what I could tell among those that tried both basses (understand I did my own set-up on the Kremona;- no adjusters and low string height) there was a rather distinct and unanimous preference for the Kremona as well as a rather mistaken perception that it was a "very expensive" carved bass. There aren't many Kremonas in Atlanta either, but I think there might be a few more soon. Guesses on the Kremona price from other bassists were starting at 3x what I paid for it and going up when I said, "no that's not what it cost..."

I've got no personal or business interest in pushing Kremona, Christopher, or any make of bass;- just happy to have a Kremona and apparently some others would be happy to have it too. I've just heard enough of this "I've heard them side by side and you haven't" bull over at TB that works up until I finally do hear them side by side. What a joke! :o

OK, so all that said, I'm going to the woodshed so someday I might be worthy of something like Bollbach's Palotta.....

[Ken Smith]

Well, I wasn't going to open this one back up, but at an open mic about a week ago, I finally saw, heard, and played a fellow player's Upton Hybrid. Those don't get down here to Atlanta too often and it is easy to see why. In all honesty, I can't say there was anything special at all about that bass. Both bass shops here that I visit regularly have basses that will blow the Upton off the map for about the same $$. It wasn't a bad bass, it just wasn't any better than the average bass that shows up there. That would include several all laminated basses as well as some Christopher hybrids (which IMO, all sounded far better), a hybrid Eastman (quite similar to the Upton in a lot of ways by sound but just looks better built), a plywood Johannes Kohr (sp?) that actually shouldn't sound nearly as good as it does. The really good sounding basses I've heard at that club were either older carved German basses or carved Hungarian basses.

I think if someone (Michael Case for example) has a Strunal, he might already be ahead quality wise. The owner of this particular Upton bass (it was the bigger shouldered hybrid one, not the Hawkes, and about a year old) was not that thrilled with it either and was already looking for upgrades. That fellow was a really good player, IMO.

I'm not saying the Upton is a bad bass, it just comes no where close to living up to the TB hype. The fellow running the open mic (a very accomplished bassist in his own right) told me he has seen / heard / played 3 or 4 of them and he wasn't too impressed at all.

As far as the "finished to the customer's choice" option;- take the factory finish on the Gliga whatever that is or the upgraded Wulter finish. I had my nuclear nitrocellose (Ken's favorite cheap finish ;) ) Kremona there to compare and I'd prefer that any day to whatever was on the Upton. There were quite a few bassists at that particular jazz open mic and it is heavily attended by Georgia State College jazz program musicians. From what I could tell among those that tried both basses (understand I did my own set-up on the Kremona;- no adjusters and low string height) there was a rather distinct and unanimous preference for the Kremona as well as a rather mistaken perception that it was a "very expensive" carved bass. There aren't many Kremonas in Atlanta either, but I think there might be a few more soon. Guesses on the Kremona price from other bassists were starting at 3x what I paid for it and going up when I said, "no that's not what it cost..."

I've got no personal or business interest in pushing Kremona, Christopher, or any make of bass;- just happy to have a Kremona and apparently some others would be happy to have it too. I've just heard enough of this "I've heard them side by side and you haven't" bull over at TB that works up until I finally do hear them side by side. What a joke! :o

OK, so all that said, I'm going to the woodshed so someday I might be worthy of something like Bollbach's Palotta.....


Hey, how did I get dragged back into this thing..lol

I just got in a Hybrid Panormo (made by Gliga) but with the Wultur German Spirit Varnish and not the standard Gliga Lacquer. The Laq. finish I allow only on the Plywood models here. I set it up yesterday morning and it was sold by lunch time. I guess in that price range ($2,750 or $2,800 with cover) I will have to bring more of these in.

It sounded different than the last one I got in but still sounded good. The teacher of the first customer who got one from me was surprised how good a Bass it was for the money. Yes, there are many good low end Basses available today.

[Jeff Gellis]

Two years since I started this post. A lot has changed. Still studying, playing at a much higher level, I have heard many, many other bassists and basses since the original post. Here is my new review of the Upton Hybrid bass I have had since January 2007.

This bass gets better sounding all the time. Both classical players and Jazz players have had great things to say about both the pizz and arco sound of my bass. It bows well, sounds present and even and sings throughout the entire range of the bass. It lost it's overly bright edge it had when it was new but remains present and warm. It is easy to hear when playing in a section as the whole bass resonates making pitch easy to hear/feel. Action is on the lower side of normal yet it still bows well. Pizzacoto is punchy and aggressive, great for grooving and walking. Its produces very loud and clear fundamentals.

As many have pointed out, there are other basses in this price point. I will tell you that mine is a winner. It gets noticed sonically and it keeps getting better. I have no affiliation with the manufacturer, this is 100% straight and honest take on a bass which I now have some history with, am getting to really know and love.

[Clay Upton]

Upton Basses....

I would love to hear what luthiers and other players think of them.

I just like the name...no affiliation however.

[Shane Wilcox]

This thread has been resurrected once before, so I don't feel too bad. As I understand it, the thread was started before Upton began making their own basses. As has been noted, they get a good deal of positive press over on TB; perhaps some of it is overblown, but many otherwise seemingly rational reviewers give them props. Is there anyone here with an informed opinion regarding their hybrid basses? I am considering having one shipped over here to NZ, and am obviously not in a position to try one out beforehand. The best "locally" available basses would be a Christopher 401 or 502 from Auckland (8-9 hours drive on a good day), and possibly a Stentor Conservatoire (seemingly available from time to time in my home city, Wellington). I had the opportunity to play on and hear Richard's Christopher 503 (?correct model) and thoroughly enjoyed it, but I have little direct experience of other good basses to compare it with. I would very much appreciate those with greater experience than I helping make my decision a little easier.

Thanks in advance!

Shane

[Richard Prowse]

Shane, as I believe I told you last weekend, check out what Ken and his mates have to say.
If I was buying a bass that I'd never played, I'd certainly trust the word Ken and Arnold Schnitzer, because they're the best, they're gentlemen of honour (sorry about the spelling of 'honor' Ken), and truly onto it. Otherwise be careful buying something, from so far away, that you've never had your hands on.

[Shane Wilcox]

Thanks for your thoughts and advice, Richard. I would dearly love Ken and/or Arnold to chime in here -- I understand that there is some "bad blood" relating to various interwebz exchanges between Ken and some people connected with Upton; I am not suggesting that this would colour (spelling again!) Ken's expert opinion regarding the quality of these basses, and his views expressed earlier in this thread seem to predate the "in-house" construction at Upton. This is the main reason for re-opening the question.

I am still leaning towards the Christopher, but will hopefully get a chance to look at the Stentor currently being set up for Alistair by Malcolm (the Wellingtonians will know who I mean) towards the end of next week. It would seem that shipping costs may well be prohibitive if Ken's estimate to me was anything to go by (and I assume it is).

[Richard Prowse]

Thanks for your thoughts and advice, Richard. I would dearly love Ken and/or Arnold to chime in here -- I understand that there is some "bad blood" relating to various interwebz exchanges between Ken and some people connected with Upton; I am not suggesting that this would colour (spelling again!) Ken's expert opinion regarding the quality of these basses, and his views expressed earlier in this thread seem to predate the "in-house" construction at Upton. This is the main reason for re-opening the question.
I can only reassure you that Ken is a man of honour (sorry again about the spelling Ken) who has the intelligence and integrity to rise well above the infantile level of throwing sand at an opponent.
To quote the musical 'Chess' (imagine Ken saying this),
"I'm a chess player, you play these other games."
Yes, you need to hear from Ken and Arnold now. I step back, like a competent MC would do.

[Ken Smith]

First off, thanks for all the oozing of respect. I do try hard to give out only the facts that I believe in. In fact, I was at Arnold's just yesterday. I dropped off my Hart to make room in my Racks for some other Basses coming in and left it there for him to show to some buyers when they visit. I brought home my Tarr bass with a new c-extension and my newly acquired Claudot bass.

I have read this thread but didn't want to respond in a negative manner off the cuff just because the word 'Upton' was mentioned. I saw their ISB entry in 2009 and played it. I was shocked when 'they' won an award for it as the basses I liked were far better. One of the judges is also a customer of theirs and they just started placing big advertisements in the ISB magazine so you can go figure what happened there. Not bad basses at all, just not award winners as compared to the other seasoned makers that were displayed there. As I told Upton before in writng on line, "I wish them the best of luck in manufacturing basses in USA to compete with European and Asian imports". How they will compete with their prices and stay in business working in USA is a mystery to me. I have been in business here in USA for over 30 years and with the expenses we incur I can't see doing anything but upper end stuff. We just can't compete with low wages and benefits with what some other countries can get away with and cost of living comparisons.

On another note as I did email back to Shane last night about me shipping him a single bass. Freight is usually cheaper with bigger shipments rather than singe pieces and that's IF it gets there in one piece. If you walk IN to my shop and pick up a bass, that's a different story.

On that note, buying a Chinese bass from a well known brand locally, trying it out, inspecting it before you buy and having a dealer there to service you considering this is like a 'big delicate baby' is the way to go. The bigger they are, the harder they fall. Big wood moves more than small wood so seeing a bass 'ready to go' rather than what's behind door #1 is much less risk in making a purchase of a bass. Even if it means you do not buy from me!;) .. That's just the truth in the matter and no way around it. For beginner basses, Christopher instruments are fairly well respected along with Eastman (here) and Shen. The Stentor I think is a UK brand name Asian Import and don't know what grade of instrument it is so I can't comment. I have played in a section with a high end Christopher 5-string Busetto model and it was beautiful with sound to match. It was on the same level as any high end Shen looking from the outside.

So, I would go for the Christopher by name and have it fully set-up by the dealer/Shop in your area. A no brainer if the price is fair in your parts. You can email shops in the states also for the same model bass set-up and then shipped and then compare as well. The shop you are in had it shipped to them most likely from China. From USA, it would be getting shipped the 2nd time. These come in first as Ocean freight in a container. Buying one bass, you get airfreight, a whole different cost structure. I hope this helps, good luck.

One last note is that if Upton had a dealer there (and they do sell to dealers), then you could compare before you buy and not take the risk yourself on a single shipped bass that you had paid for in advance, blind, with your fingers crossed hoping it gets there the way you expected and in one piece after shipping. Email Upton and see if they have a dealer there. If not, I suggest you buy what you and your teacher (you don't have a teacher yet??:eek::eek:) can try and evaluate together.

[Shane Wilcox]

Thanks for the sage advice, Ken. To address your last concern first -- I do have a teacher, and I'm going to try and get him along to try the Stentor with me. And while not ideal in terms of a trial, I am taking what I've heard and felt of Richard's Christopher as an indication of what I might expect from the 401.

I've emailed Upton twice regarding their shipping costs and have yet to receive a reply; I'm not jumping to conclusions, but this does seem rather at odds with their much vaunted reputation for customer service, and would make me a little wary of dealing with them further from such a distance.

I appreciated your fast response to my ill-placed PM (sorry about that) and your candour there and here regarding the costs and risks associated with shipping. Would that I could visit your establishment, but even then, those caveats would apply.

It may be that the Christophers are freighted here from China and set up in Auckland, but I know that the Stentors are sent from China to England for "finishing" and then here for their setup by a good local luthier. Prices here are correspondingly higher than I've seen advertised in the USA and UK, but there are advantages to living at the bottom of the world, too (right, Richard? ;)).

Thanks again, and I'll shift any further discussion of these basses to the "Chinese/Asian basses" forum.

Shane

Edit: 11 days later and still no response; too late now, I've bought a Christopher.

[Richard Prowse]

Where's the Stentor? In Alistair's shop? Can I come to the trial too? I've played a few Stentors.
Ken: Malcolm, our longest serving and most respected luthier (greater Wellingrton area), talked to me personally of a Stentor that he was really impressed with (I was on his premises getting some work done on my Christopher at the time) - it belongs to the deputy principal of the NZSO (she'd bought it as a 'road bass') and he'd set it up.
Alistair (a guy who runs a local string shop in Wellington and who has been in the business for about 30 years) has imported quite a few Stentors over the last few years. He often asks me to test basses he gets in, so I've played a few Stentors.
In my opinion Christophers and Stentors are pretty comparable and it would depend on the individual bass as to which is 'better'.
Alistair did tell me that he felt the last few Chinese basses he'd brought in (I didn't see these ones and I don't know if they were Stentors or not) weren't really up to scratch and he thought they were trying to cut costs, now that their reputation had been cemented - evidently one had a plastic nut!

[Shane Wilcox]

Hey Richard -- I'm emailing you!

[Richard Prowse]

And I'm waiting for it.:D

[Richard Prowse]

Got it!

I'll bring my bow.