What is my bass?

[Bill Sallee]

Three luthiers have looked at my bass and have offered the following opinions:
1. Italian ~1920-1940
2. German ~1920
3. French Mid 1800s

There is no label. 42 inch mensure. 19.5" upper bout. 25.5" lower.

Opinions please.

[Ken Smith]

Three luthiers have looked at my bass and have offered the following opinions:
1. Italian ~1920-1940
2. German ~1920
3. French Mid 1800s

There is no label. 42 inch mensure. 19.5" upper bout. 25.5" lower.

Opinions please.

Ok, the ones that said French or Italian, stay away from. Especially the one who said French.

The one who guessed German 1920 is the only one with a clue.

Where are the pictures of the Back? Hiding something?

[Bill Sallee]

I'll send some pics of the back later this week. The back is all original not repaired.

[Ken Smith]

I have moved this to the German School section. It can just as easily be in the German Shop bass section being the style and the period but being one of the nicer grade basses from its time, this is the best section for it.

Why was it guessed French besides him not knowing what is NEVER on a French Bass? Because it is a Violin shaped bass with slightly sloped shoulders.

The string length for this bass is of the period guessed as German. The Bout widths are also what you find on German basses, especially the lower bouts. The Gears are German and the Outer Linings are German, NEVER French. Please tell him he owes me $500 for this lesson. I hope this guy doesn't write and charge for appraisals!:eek:

Mid 1800's?.. lol.. Who is this guy? I hope not the one who sold you the bass.

Italian? Well it is Violin shaped and many German basses are copies of the Italian School. Just the basic outline mainly. Almost never the graduations and NEVER the sound as for as basses like this go. Just a look-a-like bass.

The Gears fit the period of the bass and I am guessing original to the bass.

The Bass is also over-varnished quite a bit with some darker stuff from all of the repairs. They seem like they were trying to cover up the work rather than match up the varnish after the repairs. That makes it look older to the untrained eye.

[Ken Smith]

I'll send some pics of the back later this week. The back is all original not repaired.

I will make a blind guess that the Back is Round/carved. That is typical for a bass like this. North German, Markneukirchin-Berlin area. Not down south near Mittenwald.

[Bill Sallee]

Yes, Because of the sloped shoulders and because it looks like a brother to another bass he works on. He does not sell basses, but works on many Dallas bass players basses including John Adams and Drew Phelps.

By the way, did you play on a Music Minus One LP back in the late
60's / early 70's. I had this record when I was younger and seems like the bassist's name was Ken Smith.

[Bill Sallee]

I will make a blind guess that the Back is Round/carved. That is typical for a bass like this. North German, Markneukirchin-Berlin area. Not down south near Mittenwald.

Great Guess. It has a round carved back.

[Ken Smith]

Yes, Because of the sloped shoulders and because it looks like a brother to another bass he works on. He does not sell basses, but works on many Dallas bass players basses including John Adams and Drew Phelps.

By the way, did you play on a Music Minus One LP back in the late
60's / early 70's. I had this record when I was younger and seems like the bassist's name was Ken Smith.

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/news/ .. scroll down..

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/MMO/lost_treasures.htm

I was thinner than.:) Yes, it's me and I did several records for them for other Artists as well. I am still collecting royalties for them.

On the French ID for a similar bass, that one might be German as well. I cannot tell you how many German Basses I have seen that owners and dealers thought they were French. In many cases to me eye. it's no contest.

[Anselm Hauke]

...... Please tell him he owes me $500 for this lesson........

......... North German, Markneukirchin-Berlin area. Not down south near Mittenwald.........

ken, send me 500$, and i give you a lesson in german geography ;)

[Ken Smith]

ken, send me 500$, and i give you a lesson in german geography ;)

Where did I go wrong? In general I mean! :confused:

Ok, Markneukirchin is central east near the Czech border, got that but above Bavaria. Maybe I should have said central east to north or just what I did but said North OF Mittenwald/Bavaria. Close?

A map can tell you that but can't tell you what I just did as far as matching the bass to an area, right? Maybe?;)

[Brian Gencarelli]

Hey Bill,

We have similar lumber. I have been told the same things about my bass by different sources. Part of the problem is that basses are so different that violin specialist luthiers are used to seeing patterns and get confused by our strange instrument. Not their fault necessarily, but just too much stuff to learn. Ken has a good eye, and I respect his opinion.

My bass measurements:
Overall Height- 74.5"
Back table- 47.5"
Top table- 46.5"
Bottom Bout- 26.5"
C- Bout- 15"
Top Bout- 20.25"

Ribs- Bottom Bout- 8"
Upper Bout- 7.75"

Mensure- 43.25"

Pics- Your tuners are the most similar to mine that I have seen, minus the "mini hatpegs".http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp322/bgencare/Heifetz%20Bass/Heifetz007-1.jpg

Front Shot:
http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp322/bgencare/Heifetz%20Bass/Heifetz004-1.jpg

Also, Arnold has referred me to Bill Crow's bass, which is very similar in appearance. (and Arnold works on it...) It was told to Bill that the bass is French... so much misinformation over the years has led to multiple provenance of basses.

Cheers,
Brian

[Brian Gencarelli]

Where did I go wrong? In general I mean! :confused:

Ok, Markneukirchin is central east near the Czech border, got that but above Bavaria. Maybe I should have said central east to north or just what I did but said North OF Mittenwald/Bavaria. Close?

A map can tell you that but can't tell you what I just did as far as matching the bass to an area, right? Maybe?;)


Hey Maestro,

Everyone is entitled...

Can you do one of your magic tricks and put Bill and my bass pics/scroll pics side by side?

Thanks,
Brian

[Bill Sallee]

Hey Maestro,

Everyone is entitled...

Can you do one of your magic tricks and put Bill and my bass pics/scroll pics side by side?

Thanks,
Brian

Wow, that does look very much like mine. Our basses also look very much like Drew Phelps bass which he was told was French and is why David Graham probably said mine is.

[Bill Sallee]

Hey Maestro,

Everyone is entitled...

Can you do one of your magic tricks and put Bill and my bass pics/scroll pics side by side?

Thanks,
Brian

I'll try it.

[Brian Gencarelli]

Good try, but Ken can blow them up so we can see detail. I couldn't get to your pics.

I would be interested to see what they sound like side by side! Just curious, what is your neck overstand like and is it the original neck/setting. Mine is and the overstand is low.

BG

[Bill Sallee]

Good try, but Ken can blow them up so we can see detail. I couldn't get to your pics.

I would be interested to see what they sound like side by side! Just curious, what is your neck overstand like and is it the original neck/setting. Mine is and the overstand is low.

BG

Yes the overstand is fairly low. I can't measure now because I'm having
a setup adjustment made. I will have it back tommorrow.

If you are ever in the Dallas area you can certainly come play it.

[Bill Sallee]

Three luthiers have looked at my bass and have offered the following opinions:
1. Italian ~1920-1940
2. German ~1920
3. French Mid 1800s
...
Ok, the ones that said French or Italian, stay away from. Especially the one who said French.

The one who guessed German 1920 is the only one with a clue.

Where are the pictures of the Back? Hiding something?

I don't think anyone is trying to be dishonest here. I'll name names and circumstances including everything I know so far. I am still curious about its origins but the main thing is how it plays and sounds.

Absolutely Known by direct and email contact with the previous two owners:

owner 1. luthier 1. Wayne Holmes - Who sold me the bass and told me about this forum.
He advertised on the web as Italian. His reason for calling it Italian, I presume is because he has an appraisal from Bruce Wallace which says that it of Italian workmanship or construction or somesuch. He bought it along with the rest of the tools and inventory of Bruce Wallace's shop (Pittsburgh)

Three days and 1000 miles later-

Luthier 2. Arnold Schnitzer - I went by his shop and showed him the bass.
He played Au Privave and fixed a sharp edge on the underside of the fingerboard and gave his Germanic origins opinion.

Owner 2. Bruce Wallace - I contacted him for info on the bass. He
did not defend the Italian pedigree just stating I should worry about the sound and not the history of the bass.

Early this week:

Luthier 3. David Graham - He works on lots of DFW top player's basses. He currently has the bass and is fitting a new bridge. He said it looks very much like Drew Phelps bass (confirmed by web photos from the grand ole opry and elsewhere) which was said, by someone, to be French.


Second Hand Info: according to Bruce Wallace

Owner 3. Dr. Mike Taylor (deceased) of Pittsburgh. I have tried to find info or photos on the web but not much success. I'll I can find is that he is a member of the Pittsburgh Jazz Hall of Fame and a number of people list him as a inspiration and teacher. Does anyone here know of him?

[Ken Smith]

I don't think anyone is trying to be dishonest here. I'll name names and circumstances including everything I know so far. I am still curious about its origins but the main thing is how it plays and sounds.

Absolutely Known by direct and email contact with the previous two owners:

owner 1. luthier 1. Wayne Holmes - Who sold me the bass and told me about this forum.
He advertised on the web as Italian. His reason for calling it Italian, I presume is because he has an appraisal from Bruce Wallace which says that it of Italian workmanship or construction or somesuch. He bought it along with the rest of the tools and inventory of Bruce Wallace's shop (Pittsburgh)

Three days and 1000 miles later-

Luthier 2. Arnold Schnitzer - I went by his shop and showed him the bass.
He played Au Privave and fixed a sharp edge on the underside of the fingerboard and gave his Germanic origins opinion.

Owner 2. Bruce Wallace - I contacted him for info on the bass. He
did not defend the Italian pedigree just stating I should worry about the sound and not the history of the bass.

Early this week:

Luthier 3. David Graham - He works on lots of DFW top player's basses. He currently has the bass and is fitting a new bridge. He said it looks very much like Drew Phelps bass (confirmed by web photos from the grand ole opry and elsewhere) which was said, by someone, to be French.


Second Hand Info: according to Bruce Wallace

Owner 3. Dr. Mike Taylor (deceased) of Pittsburgh. I have tried to find info or photos on the web but not much success. I'll I can find is that he is a member of the Pittsburgh Jazz Hall of Fame and a number of people list him as a inspiration and teacher. Does anyone here know of him?

First off, Wayne showed me several basses he was selling awhile back and probably this one as well. He thought, THOUGHT he had one or two Italian basses. He had only German basses of the ones he thought were Italian.

I would be glad to look at the other bass this was compared to as French as from an untrained eye, many basses look alike. It is a good possibility that if the other bass is just like this then it too is German.

On the names you mention, Arnold is the only 'full time experienced Professional bass luthier' of that group. Any Bass guy with experience can tell you that outer rib linings don't come on French Basses. If they have not learned that yet, they they are still students in the field. Actually, with regards to making ID's on old basses we are all students. Also, I am not referring to any dealer trying to up the pedigree to make more money. That is an entirely different criminal situation. The situation here is either they know or they don't know. There are a few Italian basses as well that I have seen and even owned that had outer linings. With regards to construction, the Germans were copied as well on occasion in both Italy and England. In France, they tried to look French and only copied the Italians for the most part. Another feature I have found on 3 of my personal Italian basses were Necks with Dovetail joints hidden under the Top plate but looked from the outside as if mortised in. Not one bass but 3 and from 3 different parts of Italy and 3 different periods as well. So, a dovetail joint on an Italian Bass? Sure, why not.

I too own some German basses as well, old ones like yours give or take. One is a Mittenwald bass that Jeff Bollbach just made a C-Extension for and did some repairs and set-up. I will be using this bass as my own in place of my Gilkes which I sold last year and my Martini which is in out for sale as well. The Hart is going up as well so I can make financial arrangements for my restored Italian Guitar bass and it's inspired copy. Money money money.. I need it.. lol

The others I have includes an old blockless German Bass and an old French 'style' German bass. The shoulders are way sloped like a solo bass and the Purfling runs around both the Top and Back plates. It has Rib linings mitered at the the Neck block with a strip running across. So German, it came with a coupon for wiener-schnitzel with sauerkraut. Believe it or not, this bass had papers from a big famous shop as a French bass with a matching insurance certificate. Other than the fact that is totally wrong and blind if not deceptive by the dealer that wrote these certs, they are worth nothing more than toilet paper as far as the bass goes. But for laughs, I will keep the papers and mention that despite the expert opinion of a famous dealer, he is wrong for what ever reason and the bass is German. This probably allowed him to charge about double for the bass about 10-12 years ago when the sale was made. Not only that, the repairs inside backfired and imploded itself. Re-graduated top that needed corrective breast patches put back in, a sprung bassbar that not only caved/sunk in the Top but ripped off his own repair under it and a senseless re-finish that should have never happened. All of this is being corrected now at my expense as I bought the bass last year. I was told it was perfect and the bass needed nothing. That same person who bought this bass and overpaid for it doesn't even know he bought it with a time-bomb ticking inside of it and when it blew up, couldn't tell a sunken top with a separated bass bar as that bass was in that condition for nearly 10 years. It was stable, no buzzing and sounded not only great, but loud very loud. So called improvements on a repairers bench is never an excuse for bad or unnecessary work. Many luthiers, and I use that word loosely, don't even know they are doing wrong sometimes.

There is no school to go to to learn these things than life with basses itself. One must be fair and believe what is true when it is, rather than glorify a hamburger into a steak. It is what it is when it is. You can't turn a Dog into a Shark with a fancy appraisal. First off, the dog will eventually drown or starve to death and the Shark, he will do more damage to your furniture than the dog did.. lol..:eek::eek:

It's a German/Germanic Bass. ;) .. I was playing mine all day, proudly. 'Sitting' in my rack I have a genuine Fendt d'Salo, a 4/4 Panormo School, the Candi and several others. Still, the German is the one I am using to start the orchestra season off. There is nothing worng with a good old German Bass. There are plenty of them in the professional Orchestras over in Europe from Germany to Vienna and they are well respected instruments. Enjoy yours..:cool:

[Bill Sallee]

It's a German/Germanic Bass. ;) .. I was playing mine all day, proudly. 'Sitting' in my rack I have a genuine Fendt d'Salo, a 4/4 Panormo School, the Candi and several others. Still, the German is the one I am using to start the orchestra season off. There is nothing worng with a good old German Bass. There are plenty of them in the professional Orchestras over in Europe from Germany to Vienna and they are well respected instruments. Enjoy yours..:cool:

Ken, I am absolutely enjoying my bass. I wake up in the morning and have to play it for a few minutes because I just can't get over how good it sounds
I don't believe I overpaid as it was a little less than 10k and is so much more bass than the old plywood jobs I have owned. Thanks.

[Bill Sallee]

Where are the pictures of the Back? Hiding something?

Finally got around to taking pictures of the back.

[Ken Smith]

Finally got around to taking pictures of the back.

Nice pics. German Saxon region bass as I said before (my opinion). Enjoy it..

[Thomas Erickson]

you photographed your bass while waiting for a checkup? :confused: ok though, cool photos! :D

[Bill Sallee]

you photographed your bass while waiting for a checkup? :confused: ok though, cool photos! :D

Checkup????:confused: No, the bass is in the study of my house.
Where in the Pac NW are you? I visit Portland/Vancouver WA
from time to time.

[Thomas Erickson]

Checkup????:confused: No, the bass is in the study of my house.
Where in the Pac NW are you? I visit Portland/Vancouver WA
from time to time.

Kidding, kidding - I don't know any bassists who could have been doctors... wanna checkup my bass? :D yah, in Portland for the time being.

[Bill Sallee]

Kidding, kidding - I don't know any bassists who could have been doctors... wanna checkup my bass? :D yah, in Portland for the time being.

Actually, I do know one double bassist in Dallas who is a doctor. :o


\

[marcusfuller]

Bill, I played with Dr. Mike from 2003 to 2005, the year he passed away. I would be glad to answer any questions you have about him, though I do not have information on the bass specifically. All I know is that he waited a long time to get it from when he first heard it. The man who owned it before him loved it and Mike bought it from that man's wife at some point after that man passed away. If you would like, I can get you mp3s of us playing together, he played on your bass in these recordings.

Marcus

[Bill Sallee]

Bill, I played with Dr. Mike from 2003 to 2005, the year he passed away. I would be glad to answer any questions you have about him, though I do not have information on the bass specifically. All I know is that he waited a long time to get it from when he first heard it. The man who owned it before him loved it and Mike bought it from that man's wife at some point after that man passed away. If you would like, I can get you mp3s of us playing together, he played on your bass in these recordings.

Marcus

Thanks, Marcus. I haven't found any info on "Dr. Mike" other than a few people listing him as an influence and seeing his name in the Pittsburgh Jazz hall of fame. I would like to know more if you care to share. Also I would be interested in hearing your recordings.

[marcusfuller]

Bill,

I will post those mp3s to my website. It was nothing fancy, just a demo session, as we were trying to put together a booking CD. My email is marcus@marcusfuller.com, or we can talk on here. Whatever works best for you. Sorry for the delay in responding on here.

Marcus

[marcusfuller]

Bill,

You can find the mp3s at http://www.marcusfuller.com/dr-mike/

I hope you like them. Recording those with him is one of the best memories of my life.

Marcus

[Elisabeth Steves]

Nice! We are looking over a virtual "twin" to this bass in the shop and working to help the owner to ID it. Ken's info on this bass, as always, is very helpful. Ours has the same light brown varnish - it looks a lot like that on a Hornsteiner we worked on a while back, though I understand that workshop was not in the same region. We also have a Markneukirchen bass with the similar plain purfling under the button, but the varnish is much more amber with none of the brown which almost looks greenish in some light. I'm trying to post pics of the one that's like Mr. Sallee's, but my browser (or something) is not playing nice. Will try again later on a different computer.