Breaking in a bass

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I think most bassists agree that one reason basses improve with age is the effect of vibration in 'opening up' the bass. Exactly how this occurs I don't know, but I'm guessing there are differing opinions.

Anyway, in an attempt to speed up the process, I've thought of leaving the stereo on while I'm away with a speaker blasting away at my bass.:D

Thoughts?

Do you think a bass would prefer:

Pictures at an Exhibition/Organ transcription
Vic Wooten
Paul Chambers arco solos
James Earl Jones narrating a book

I tried this for a bit, but my dog isn't crazy about Russian music, so that almost eliminates number one.
My bass may try to pick up some Vic Wooten licks. This would be difficult for a DB to pull off, but maybe worth a try?
It would have to have better intonation than Mr PC, but he's surely a goal to shoot for.
Maybe a little James Earl Jones would be good for helping the solos. Me and the bass may actually have something worth saying and a willing audience. :D

OK,
So what are your thoughts? Is this a stupid idea and if not, any material for helping the bass along on it's road to maturity?

p.s. Bob, I'd bring the bass to you for the de-dampening treatment, but money is really tight right now. Maybe it's in my basses future.

[Ken Smith]

Why do Basses sound better after it gets some cracks and then gets fixed? Is that part of aging? Is that part of mellowing out or am I just cracking up mentioning this? :p (why pink? yuck..)

Experience and time combined loosens up a Bass. My 200 or so year old Italian Bass (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Storioni/Storioni.htm) sounds mellower than my 88 year old Italian Bass (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/MartiniBass/martini_bass_2.htm) and the older one has way more cracks. :(

I had two English Basses side (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/GilkesBass/GilkesBass.htm) by side (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Dodd/DoddBass.htm) both around 200 years old and the one with more cracks sounded better. Then I bought another one almost 200 years old (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Hart/Hart.htm) with even more cracks and it sounds even better than the other two. :D

Maybe it is all it's cracked up to be, aye?:rolleyes:

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Ken, I respect your advice.
Do you recommend I put the bass outside for the rest of the winter?

[Jim Barber]

I have heard people suggest some kind of transducer that vibrates the bass; but I don't know specifically what device, where to get it and how to use it. Anyone else, know about these? One bassist suggested playing tritone double stops with a bow to generate a lot of vibration. My bass is new so I bow some long open Es and As as well as the tritone double stops to open it up when I start practicing.

Jim

[Dwight McCartney]

If you believe that sound vibrations will improve your bass, then just plug into your amp, turn it up till it feeds back and leave it on all day. :eek:

[Brian Gencarelli]

I do this:

Tune your E string down to D. Then hold your finger down on A on the G string. You end up with 4ths, or 5ths (if you are on your head). Then play a series of double stops on the strings D & A, A & D, D & A, etc... if you want to get tricky turn your bow underhanded and play the lowest and highest string at the same time.

You will feel your bass start to open up. Give it a whirl.

Brian

[Ken Smith]

I do this:

Tune your E string down to D. Then hold your finger down on A on the G string. You end up with 4ths, or 5ths (if you are on your head). Then play a series of double stops on the strings D & A, A & D, D & A, etc... if you want to get tricky turn your bow underhanded and play the lowest and highest string at the same time.

You will feel your bass start to open up. Give it a whirl.

Brian

Do you do this for 20 years without stopping? How do you expect to excel the aging process with all these gimmicks?

Remember the song? "Breaking-in Is Hard To Do" ..;)

My method? I just buy old Basses and get them fixed up, period. My 3/4 Shen is 10 years old and my 7/8ths is about 6. The Lionhead from Jeff is about 3 1/2 etc.. They all sound their age. My Martini is 88 and Gilkes is 193 and they both sound their age as well despite their young looks.

Being smart and having experience is two different things. Doing the right thing to vibrate your Bass is fine if you can live long enough to witness the change.

If you can afford a House or Car and/or hobbies and vices, then adjust your priorities and try to get an older investment grade Bass. I don't see it happening any other way.

[Brian Gencarelli]

Do you do this for 20 years without stopping? How do you expect to excel the aging process with all these gimmicks?

Remember the song? "Breaking-in Is Hard To Do" ..;)

My method? I just buy old Basses and get them fixed up, period. My 3/4 Shen is 10 years old and my 7/8ths is about 6. The Lionhead from Jeff is about 3 1/2 etc.. They all sound their age. My Martini is 88 and Gilkes is 193 and they both sound their age as well despite their young looks.

Being smart and having experience is two different things. Doing the right thing to vibrate your Bass is fine if you can live long enough to witness the change.

If you can afford a House or Car and/or hobbies and vices, then adjust your priorities and try to get an older investment grade Bass. I don't see it happening any other way.

I have one Ken- and it sounds great. I am not telling him that a "new" bass will sound anything but "new".

I believe that each bass, where it is in its own progression has a maximum volume and tone production capability. What I am suggesting is how to get the most out of that instrument at that particular time in its progression. However, if you don't believe me- try it. Try it on one of your 200 year old English Basses. Do it for one week solid, about 5-10 minutes a day. Make it part of your practice routine, as long tones.

Your bow arm will improve, and your tone production on that instrument will improve. I also think that the amount of vibrations you are producing will positively affect the sound- in the long run. There is no instant fix.


Being smart and having experience is two different things. Doing the right thing to vibrate your Bass is fine if you can live long enough to witness the change.


I have both, as well as you. Some of us are younger, Ken. We may see the difference in our lifetimes. ;) Also, some of us keep a bass for 30 or 40 years without buying and selling. (or at least plan to)

As I said, give it a whirl. :rolleyes:

Brian

[David Powell]

I do this:

Tune your E string down to D. Then hold your finger down on A on the G string. You end up with 4ths, or 5ths (if you are on your head). Then play a series of double stops on the strings D & A, A & D, D & A, etc... if you want to get tricky turn your bow underhanded and play the lowest and highest string at the same time.

You will feel your bass start to open up. Give it a whirl.

BrianA variation I use of this warm-up is different. I introduce a very strong low pitched dissonance by bowing the major 7th interval (B on the B sring and Bb on the E) It all starts shuddering at about 2 Hz. I suppose the same thing can be done with the E and Eb on a 4 string. If the bass is feeling stiff, I do this for a few bow strokes and it seems to limber it up a bit. I think playing it often will do more than leaving music on, but if you do leave the music on;- my dog, Mars, prefers Stan Getz and Astrud Gilberto,....

[Brian Gencarelli]

A variation I use of this warm-up is different. I introduce a very strong low pitched dissonance by bowing the major 7th interval (B on the B sring and Bb on the E) It all starts shuddering at about 2 Hz. I suppose the same thing can be done with the E and Eb on a 4 string. If the bass is feeling stiff, I do this for a few bow strokes and it seems to limber it up a bit. I think playing it often will do more than leaving music on, but if you do leave the music on;- my dog, Mars, prefers Stan Getz and Astrud Gilberto,....


My reasoning for using the method I developed is that all four strings are ringing either due to direct playing it or sympathetic vibration. That means the whole bass is being driven from every string. (hopefully) You can hear all the overtones ring fully- and I believe that is the key.

I don't have enough fingers to pull off your system.:D

My bass wasn't played for about 10-12 years when I bought it. It was stiff and didn't speak as well when I first got it. True, I have done some set up and added a C-extension. (Which, incidentally, I think has a profound effect on "opening up" an instrument.)

After eight years of owning this instrument, it sounds much better now. Not just to me, but my section mates in the orchestras I play in. Part of this, not all- is due to me "coaxing the sound" out of the instrument.

If I could demonstrate it- you could hear the difference just a few minutes makes. I call it "waking up".

FWIW
Brian

[Brian Gencarelli]

For those interested:

http://www.dalemfg.com/acousticaladjustment_021.htm

Obviously a bass would be much more involved, but you guys asked.
:cool:
Brian

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I'm sure the quickest and easiest route (for those who can afford it) is to just buy an old bass to begin with.
For someone in my lack of income bracket :( finding a bass that is well played in and speaks to me is a challenge. It seems most practical to get the last ounce of tone out of my current bass.
I am in the market for a 200 year old Italian bass under 5K if anyone knows where I might find one.:D

[Bob Branstetter]

p.s. Bob, I'd bring the bass to you for the de-dampening treatment, but money is really tight right now. Maybe it's in my basses future.
Greg has played several instruments which have been treated with the Vibration DeDamping process.

FWIW, I've been using Prof. Gerhard A. v. Reumont's Vibration DeDamping procedure on basses for several years with very good results. This systems uses a frequency adjustable mechanical device attached to the bridge of the instrument which sets the plates into high amplitude vibration during 12-15 precisely controlled steps from approx 50 to 12,000 Hz. The lowest frequency steps starting at about 50Hz are run for 5 to 10 hours each and I can guarantee that a few hours of this can get your wife VERY mad at you as it is VERY loud (good ear protection is an absolute must). Unlike loudspeakers, all of the energy is directed into the tables of the bass and the top of the instrument can actually be seen (with a stroboscope) to move with an amplitude of between 1/16" and 1/8" at the ff hole area continuously. That is far more amplitude than you will ever see as a result of playing at FFFF. Here is a link (http://www.henrystrobel.com/vibrate.htm) to more info in case anyone is interested.

Prof. Reumont's book "How to Improve the Resonance Condition of Musical Instruments by Vibration Dedamping" has been translated into English and is available from Henry Strobel Books (http://www.henrystrobel.com/)for about $30.00. Henry added this statement on the ordering page.

"Describes the author's twenty-five years of experience and the methods and equipment he used to "play-in" string instruments. (Only for experts who can properly evaluate and apply this process.)"

Reumont's method was patented in Germany and was licensed to several musical instument makers. When his patent expired, he wrote his book which explains all of the how, what, why and whens of the process. Reumont was a professor of Engineering prior to his retirement. His specialty was relieving stresses in structures. He is also a life long doublebassist.

[Matthew Tucker]

I'm sure the quickest and easiest route (for those who can afford it) is to just buy an old bass to begin with.
I am in the market for a 200 year old Italian bass under 5K if anyone knows where I might find one.:D

Me too. God why didn't I think of this? Its so obvious!! Rather than wasting time trying to get my bass to sound better, I should buy one that is already perfect!:D

[Brian Gencarelli]

Me too. God why didn't I think of this? Its so obvious!! Rather than wasting time trying to get my bass to sound better, I should buy one that is already perfect!:D

Can't you just build one that is already perfect?;)
BG

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Yes, I have played a few of Bob's basses that had the Vibration Dedamping process done to them. Although I didn't play the basses before the process, I am a believer in the process. They have tone in spades.
Bob, surely at some point when finances improve I'll come see you.

[Ken Smith]

Yes, I have played a few of Bob's basses that had the Vibration Dedamping process done to them. Although I didn't play the basses before the process, I am a believer in the process. They have tone in spades.
Bob, surely at some point when finances improve I'll come see you.


Someone PLEASEZZZZZ come by and play my Cornerless bass and feel your innards shake when you play the two bottom strings as well as listen to the G and D which sound as thick as a bridge cable and tell me if any new Bass can sound like this with any of these 'mad scientist' methods. Then, please play one of Arnold's handmades as well as my Simba' from Jeff and then tell me how these good newbies sound in comparison as well as your souped-up gadgeted newbies as compared to my Storionish Bass.

I just want to hear it from someone playing all three examples between actually old, New and 'vibrated' New.

Is that too much to ask? Then, and only then can we put this theory to rest. If you don't compare it to some good old Basses, we will not know what it does.

Also, do Basses ever crack while doing this test? All Basses crack somewhere while being brokin-in during the first 50-100 years somewhere at least..

[Bob Branstetter]

Someone PLEASEZZZZZ come by and play my Cornerless bass and feel your innards shake when you play the two bottom strings as well as listen to the G and D which sound as thick as a bridge cable and tell me if any new Bass can sound like this with any of these 'mad scientist' methods. Then, please play one of Arnold's handmades as well as my Simba' from Jeff and then tell me how these good newbies sound in comparison as well as your souped-up gadgeted newbies as compared to my Storionish Bass.

I just want to hear it from someone playing all three examples between actually old, New and 'vibrated' New.

Is that too much to ask? Then, and only then can we put this theory to rest. If you don't compare it to some good old Basses, we will not know what it does.

Also, do Basses ever crack while doing this test? All Basses crack somewhere while being brokin-in during the first 50-100 years somewhere at least..Ken - you need to go back and read the title of this thread. It is "Breaking in a bass", not comparing old basses to new ones or vibrated basses to old ones. Come on Ken, stop comparing Apples and Oranges. You might as well be saying that old basses sound better than Cremona plywood basses. We all know that to be true, but that was never the question. There is far more than "breaking in" process that makes an good old bass sound great (but time isn't going to make a bad old bass sound great). No one can duplicate the effects of time on the molecular structure of the wood. Breaking in, whether by playing or other method, is simply the process of relieving the internal stresses of an instrument. Once an instrument has been broken in, Vibration DeDamping does absolutely nothing. However, on brand new instruments, what Vibration DeDamping does IMO is simply amazing. I also use it anytime that I do major repairs that incur the removal of the top. Customers tell me that it sounds just like it did before the repairs were done.

I am not going to get into a discussion on whether Vibration DeDamping works or not. It has worked for me in the past and that is all that matters to me. I simply wished to point out that Reumont's Vibration DeDamping method does exist and has been reviewed positively by such well know violin authorities as Joseph Curtin. There have been very positive articles written by persons other than Reumont on the subject of Vibration DeDamping that are also available. If your mind is closed on this matter, that's your business. I'm not going to try to convince you or anyone else otherwise. However, don't think for a second that Reumont's methods can be compared to the old schemes such as putting a speaker in front of a instrument and playing loud music or tones. All you have to do is put your hand on the instrument and feel how little of the audio energy has been transferred to the plates of the instrument. Such schemes might possibly work on a violin or other instruments with smaller, relatively thin plates, but on a bass it isn't going to happen. The plates are simply too big, thick and stiff for air transfer to do much, if anything.

Vibration DeDamping is not a gentle process and proper care MUST be exercised, as it has the potential to damage (i.e. crack) an instrument, especially if one tries to cut corners. I read where one person thought he could "improve" the process without using Reumont's methodology or buying the expensive equipment that Reumont specifies. The net result was an instrument that had to be sent to the shop for fairly major repairs. Even with proper care, broken strings sometimes occur. However, I have not heard on anyone damaging an instrument when they followed Reumont's instructions.

[Ken Smith]

I think we are talking about two slightly different things. I agree that playing a Bass does help to break it in and this Vibrating technique you refer to may help it further and faster BUT my point is as you have just said, "No one can duplicate the effects of time on the molecular structure of the wood".

I just want to make it VERY clear that anything short of a good Bass being very old will not sound or respond like a very old Bass no matter how much you 'shake 'n' bake' it....

If you have a newish kind of Bass, play it as much as you can to break it in. The methods described above has worked according to the witnesses postings. If you want an actual Real OLD BASS, then get one because nothing you can do will make it old before its time..

Bob? Are we on the same page now? Close maybe buddy?

I will try Brian's methods of 'D'/'A' 5ths for a warm up each time before playing whenever time allows and see what shakes. Brian? On that 'E'-string to 'D' de-tuning, will I get the same results just using my Extension stopped on the 'D' to play that 5th with the 'A' string or does the length matter?

[Brian Gencarelli]

I will try Brian's methods of 'D'/'A' 5ths for a warm up each time before playing whenever time allows and see what shakes. Brian? On that 'E'-string to 'D' de-tuning, will I get the same results just using my Extension stopped on the 'D' to play that 5th with the 'A' string or does the length matter?

Ken,

No, you can stop the D on your extension. I was assuming that Greg did not have one... I stop my extension like that.

I may be up to Philly in the near future, so I will try to get John to take me out to your place. I would love to play that "Storioni". I also want you to take a look at the "Heifetz" up close and personal.

Brian

[Ken Smith]

Ken,

No, you can stop the D on your extension. I was assuming that Greg did not have one... I stop my extension like that.

I may be up to Philly in the near future, so I will try to get John to take me out to your place. I would love to play that "Storioni". I also want you to take a look at the "Heifetz" up close and personal.

Brian

Great, come on by. John who by the way?

The Storioni is here for a few months 'till Arnold finishes my Hart/Fendt Bass. Then I take one off his bench and put another one on it. I would love to see your Old German as well. Just let me know what your plans are. I go into Philly myself on occasion and there is also a Train that comes within 10 minutes of the shop as well.

[Bob Branstetter]

Bob? Are we on the same page now? Close maybe buddy?OK, I think we are fairly close now. The important concept we agree upon is that "breaking in" and "OLD" are two distinctively different things.

[Brian Gencarelli]

Great, come on by. John who by the way?

The Storioni is here for a few months 'till Arnold finishes my Hart/Fendt Bass. Then I take one off his bench and put another one on it. I would love to see your Old German as well. Just let me know what your plans are. I go into Philly myself on occasion and there is also a Train that comes within 10 minutes of the shop as well.

Harrison. I may be making a trek up there in a month or so... I'll keep you posted.
Brian

[Ken Smith]

OK, I think we are fairly close now. The important concept we agree upon is that "breaking in" and "OLD" are two distinctively different things.

Gotcha.. Now we're cookin..

[Ken Smith]

Harrison. I may be making a trek up there in a month or so... I'll keep you posted.
Brian

Ok, yes. I didn't know you guys knew each other. He knows his way here fairly well. Nice guy and great player as well. My sons name is Jon so it threw me a curve at first..

[Brian Gencarelli]

Ok, yes. I didn't know you guys knew each other. He knows his way here fairly well. Nice guy and great player as well. My sons name is Jon so it threw me a curve at first..

You can say that again. John is a former student and friend. He has a pretty amazing bass as well...

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I do this:

Tune your E string down to D. Then hold your finger down on A on the G string. You end up with 4ths, or 5ths (if you are on your head). Then play a series of double stops on the strings D & A, A & D, D & A, etc... if you want to get tricky turn your bow underhanded and play the lowest and highest string at the same time.

You will feel your bass start to open up. Give it a whirl.

Brian

I have been paying attention here, but chose not to jump in; more interesting to watch from afar. :D

Thank you Brian, but I've got an Obligato E and don't want to kill it buy tuning down. No extension on the bass. I have been dragging the bow to get as much sound out of the bass as possible when nobody else is home :eek: and I think it's helping.

FWIW, I don't currently have the means to even consider another bass for probably several years. It's got something to do with being married and soon having two kids in college among other factors. I'm not complaining, it's just the way it is. I suppose I could change my marital status, but I love my wife too much to give it much thought. :D

My bass will get to listen to some loud music for the foreseeable future and be punished by the bow. This may or may not help, but it can't hurt either. When I can free up some funds, I may take it over to Bob's for some punishment.

Thanks for the advice.

[Richard Prowse]

I'd love to try that cornerless bass, do you stand it in a corner when you're not playing it?

[Ken Smith]

I'd love to try that cornerless bass, do you stand it in a corner when you're not playing it?

No, it sits in a rack in my office.

[David Powell]

I definitely notice even over a week long period that my bass is more responsive the more I play it. Let it sit a couple of days and it feels stiff at first. It's not a huge difference, but I do notice it. I think doing something to get it vibrating is just getting it warmed up mechanically. Oh, and that low Major 7th interval is just a double stop. I just use the two notes, the open BB and the Bb. You have to play it arco to get the effect. If you have a 4 string, the flat 5th works pretty well and the vibrational deflection in the bass is considerable if you can set up a standing wave at about 2-3 Hz. The dissonance is sort of seizmic. Things will walk off of the shelves....

Overall, my DB does respond much easier than when new. I think the exercise is beneficial. If it is going to get considerably better with age, that will be nice to experience. If not, some day I may resort to Ken's strategy...

Gee for whatever reason I could take up that invitation to come play on his basses, I might have to make the time.

[Mike O'Malley]

A few years a go Rick Turner and Steve Rabe (SWR amps) did a similar experiment where they hooked guitar up to a low frequency transducer. They reported similar effects. Interesting. They patented the proces, or the device, but I don't think it ever went anywhere

http://www.acousticguitar.com/gear/advice/vibration.shtml

I always assumed that the changes with age are the result of the wood changing character, not viibrations--in grad school I did a fair amount of remodeling work on old rowhouses in San Francisco--old as in 70 years or so. The wood in those houses was hard to work--it was really hard to drive a nail into it compared to new lumber. It could be because they used "old growth" timber, but I doubt it--those were rowhouses that were built after the SF earthquake, in a hurry. My house was built in 1949, a typical DC area postwar brick cape cod, built in a hurry to standard specs, and the floor joists are similarly harder to nail and drill than new timber, and I just can't believe they were using some kind of old growth lumber in 1949. My guess is that the resins in the wood age and grow harder and more brittle. But who knows? I'm not even convinced that old instruments always sound better. I've played plenty of expensive old guitars that sounded blah. But I've never played a really old bass.

[Bob Branstetter]

A few years a go Rick Turner and Steve Rabe (SWR amps) did a similar experiment where they hooked guitar up to a low frequency transducer. They reported similar effects. Interesting. They patented the proces, or the device, but I don't think it ever went anywhere

http://www.acousticguitar.com/gear/advice/vibration.shtml

That is an interesting article that really points out one of the big differences between guitars and the violin family. Catgut Acoustical Society members have used Chladni patterns in plate tuning for the last 50 years or so as an inexpensive method to visualize the major vibration modes in plate tuning. Christmas "glitter" is placed on a disassembled plate and the plate is vibrated using a sinewave generator driving a small speaker. When the frequency of a particular mode is activated, the distinctive Chladni pattern is formed by the glitter. In violin plate tuning, the patterns (primarily of modes 1, 2 & 5) are used to help determine where or how much wood should be removed from the plate. The Chladni mode patterns have distinctive shapes that are, for lack of better words, the "target" during the graduation/plate tuning. The vibrating frequency of the particular mode changes as a result the plate tuning wood removal. You never know the mode frequency until after the plate tuning is done and there are no consistent mode frequencies between instruments of the same type and style.

Apparently, in flat top guitars, the Chladni modes are at a consistent fixed frequency from one guitar to another. This allows them to vibrate the guitars at known (fixed) frequencies. Violin family instruments could not use this method since the exact mode vibration frequencies would not be known. (Besides, how would you attach a round back bass to the top of the big guitar shaker?);)

[David Powell]

I always assumed that the changes with age are the result of the wood changing character, not viibrations--in grad school I did a fair amount of remodeling work on old rowhouses in San Francisco--old as in 70 years or so. The wood in those houses was hard to work--it was really hard to drive a nail into it compared to new lumber. It could be because they used "old growth" timber, but I doubt it--those were rowhouses that were built after the SF earthquake, in a hurry. My house was built in 1949, a typical DC area postwar brick cape cod, built in a hurry to standard specs, and the floor joists are similarly harder to nail and drill than new timber, and I just can't believe they were using some kind of old growth lumber in 1949. My guess is that the resins in the wood age and grow harder and more brittle. But who knows? I'm not even convinced that old instruments always sound better. I've played plenty of expensive old guitars that sounded blah. But I've never played a really old bass.

This is something that I have been cogitating on for a while now and thinking about possible links between the aging process, which is bound to be related to chemical / physical changes that occur whether the wood is vibrated or not, and the vibrational process, which while it is something different, may interact with the chemical factor. Some here would warn that me thinking might be a risky undertaking or have even riskier results, but for what it might be worth, two things have occurred to me.

There are definitely chemical changes happening in the wood. Incidentally, the studs in my 1915 heart pine house will break a drill bit unless it is designed to drill through high grade steel, and those will generally burn through more than cut through, so the wood does get harder as observed by others. What has occurred to me lately is that the vibration of the wood may speed up this process. Almost every chemical process is speeded up by agitation of the reactants, and vibrating a piece of wood will certainly cause the components within it to move around, perhaps bringing more of the unstable chemicals into contact with the others that these react with.

The other consideration is that when we play an instrument, much of the energy we introduce to the wood is not converted into sound, but absorbed by the wood. This will be absorbed in the form of heat, a result of the friction between the moving molecules as some of the sound waves are absorbed, just like bending a piece of metal will heat it up. Heat is also known to accelerate chemical reactions. So the agitation and heat effects could be at work in speeding up the aging process and the term "warming up the bass" is more accurate than one might think at first.

Even though these effects are probably quite small, the general perception that there is a difference is considerable.

[Ken Smith]

This is something that I have been cogitating on for a while now and thinking about possible links between the aging process, which is bound to be related to chemical / physical changes that occur whether the wood is vibrated or not, and the vibrational process, which while it is something different, may interact with the chemical factor. Some here would warn that me thinking might be a risky undertaking or have even riskier results, but for what it might be worth, two things have occurred to me.

There are definitely chemical changes happening in the wood. Incidentally, the studs in my 1915 heart pine house will break a drill bit unless it is designed to drill through high grade steel, and those will generally burn through more than cut through, so the wood does get harder as observed by others. What has occurred to me lately is that the vibration of the wood may speed up this process. Almost every chemical process is speeded up by agitation of the reactants, and vibrating a piece of wood will certainly cause the components within it to move around, perhaps bringing more of the unstable chemicals into contact with the others that these react with.

The other consideration is that when we play an instrument, much of the energy we introduce to the wood is not converted into sound, but absorbed by the wood. This will be absorbed in the form of heat, a result of the friction between the moving molecules as some of the sound waves are absorbed, just like bending a piece of metal will heat it up. Heat is also known to accelerate chemical reactions. So the agitation and heat effects could be at work in speeding up the aging process and the term "warming up the bass" is more accurate than one might think at first.

Even though these effects are probably quite small, the general perception that there is a difference is considerable.

Hable engles? :confused: ..lol

I have no clue what you just said David! :confused:

As far as breaking in a Bass, playing it is the only sensible thing I can think of. If you are looking for that 'old' sound, buy an 'old Bass'! ;)

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I understand what David said, but it seems to be an exercise in theoretical physics. Surely anything that gets molecules moving will cause friction which will, in turn, cause heat. I suspect that any increase in temperature on the bass would be only a fraction of a degree. Have basses in warm climates improved more than those in colder climates?
Oxidation of the wood also chemically changes the wood. How would anyone ever set up an experiment on this?
I do agree that old wood is harder, on average, than new wood; I suspect it was also harder when it was new. New pine is a crop grown with the intent to maximize yield. I believe that approach produces softer wood.

David, are there little insects in your house singing to the studs, causing them to vibrate?:D

[David Powell]

Basically what I'm saying in a nutshell:

Anything that produces vibration in the bass or a small amount of heat could speed up the chemical process that is normally due to aging. It is a reasonable hypothesis considering the proven and known nature of chemical reactions, but probably very difficult to prove.

[David Powell]

I understand what David said, but it seems to be an exercise in theoretical physics.Readily conceded. And I guess that is why physicists who are double bassists would carry out the exercise and patent various processes;- without proof. The thermodynamics behind the exercise are well known and in physics these are now called "laws";- meaning that the observed effect of heat and agitation on reactions that would proceed anyway over a long period of time is consistent. There are many plausible reasons why it could happen somewhat differently, though. And this is why it would be difficult to prove anything. Wood is not a consistent material at the molecular level. Because it is the product of a living thing it has all kinds of unstable stuff in it. If wood were crystalline in structure, that sort of structure locks the molecules in a way that agitation's effect would be canceled except at surfaces. But wood cellulose is a long chain sugar molecule held together by hydrogen bonds. It doesn't have a crystalline lattice structure like steel for instance. Steel rusts, but only where it is in contact with oxygen. And given enough time, it will rust no matter what you do. But painting the surface or coating it slows it down considerably. Oxides of iron are favored by thermodynamics over pure iron. It will not rust from the inside out, but it will rust faster at the surface in a warm and humid environment.

In the wood there are unstable chemicals that react with each other that are in close contact in the wood's structure. These are acids and (relatively speaking) bases right next to each other that tend to neutralize over time, a very long time, because the structure of the wood slows down the migration of reactants through the wood. So the reactions that happen within the wood as it ages happen pretty easily, depending on the moisture in the wood (faster if the wood is wet and warm) and other factors like the density and other components of the wood. It isn't necessary for the wood to be exposed to open air for some of these reactions to proceed. Attempting to seal the wood probably wouldn't slow it down much either. If you want to see an example of accelerated degradation of wood due to heat (and not much heat) simply place a freshly cut piece of spruce (2x4 from any hardware store that has a rapid inventory turn over will do) in the sun with part of it covered by something opaque and the other part exposed directly. Within a few days the exposed part will be darkened. The only energy added is light (heat) and the components in the wood react with each other due to the addition of the light (heat). This will happen without the light also, just a lot slower.

One thing is certain: Freshly harvested wood is chemically unstable. Oxidation is one way to describe what is happening during aging, but mostly it is rapid degradation of partially formed cellulose, hemi-cellulose that is being burned up by acidic lignen. When that has happened completely, the remaining acid attacks the complete cellulose but much more slowly. Most of the hemi-cellulose is consumed within 2-5 years. It would not be practical for most builders of wood items to wait for the cellulose reaction to go to equilibrium, as that might take hundreds of years. But it certainly does happen. Surely anything that gets molecules moving will cause friction which will, in turn, cause heat. I suspect that any increase in temperature on the bass would be only a fraction of a degree. Have basses in warm climates improved more than those in colder climates?
Oxidation of the wood also chemically changes the wood. How would anyone ever set up an experiment on this? I don't think most folks that understand thermodynamics would require proof in every individual case. Enough has been proven that most general cases are predictable. Not everything needs to be that well understood to be put to practical use, either. Take for instance the rather complex engineering of the Roman aqueducts that were built long before Isaac Newton accurately described the forces of gravity. The Romans took their observations as practical fact without any "science". And Ken's experience is that older, well played basses generally sound better. He doesn't need an explanation. So his advice to "play the bass" or to "buy an old one" is pretty solid and well founded. It isn't strange to me that his view is perfectly consistent with what thermodynamics would predict.
I do agree that old wood is harder, on average, than new wood; I suspect it was also harder when it was new. New pine is a crop grown with the intent to maximize yield. I believe that approach produces softer wood.Hard to say why the older wood is harder as it appears no one was taking very careful notes. In the case of my house, some think that species of pine is extinct. Some think it was the same as Southern Yellow Pine, just old growth and much larger trees than are currently harvested The boards are definitely nice stuff compared to what you see now. In my hall, which is about 15 feet long, there are only two floor boards that do not span the entire 15 feet. Some of them run past the threshold and go into the foyer all the way to the front door, which is another ten feet. Knots in the wood are extremely rare. I have seen old warehouses along the railway here that have 100+ ft. beams in the rafters that are a single tree. Sadly, in the last few years many of these have burned due to arson with no attempt to salvage the pine. There is no doubt that crop pine trees have been bred to grow extremely fast, and this definitely results in more soft grain and weaker wood. But growth rate and hardness tend to be consistently observable only within a given species. For instance I transplanted two very young Tulip (magnolias that are commonly called yellow poplar) trees when these were under 4 feet tall. One of them was only a few inches tall. These were wild trees. Both are approaching 40 feet tall now and it is less than 15 years ago that these were transplanted. These are averaging an increase in trunk diameter of nearly an inch/year. And I'm sure if these were harvested in a few years that the wood would be consistent in hardness and strength to commercially harvested yellow poplar, which is harder and stronger than spruce 2x4's that even when farmed and bred to grow quickly do not grow at the rate of the wild Tulip trees.

David, are there little insects in your house singing to the studs, causing them to vibrate?:D Probably so, but I thought is was just my ears ringing! The wood in my house is so hard that there are places where years ago the termites gave it a go and gave up! Seriously, the colony would find a run of soft grain and last maybe a few feet in one board and then die out. This was probably more than 75 years ago;- before houses were even treated for bugs. And then there were also powder post beetles. I think they gave up too, or the house would be saw dust by now. But I've often wondered if there might be little creatures in the top wood of the basses dancing around when I start playing it. Possibly gnawing a little here and there to improve the carver's work? Well, I kind of hope not... But seriously, this is factual:

Once when I was bowing some really low notes quite loudly, I looked up to find that several spiders, which I had no idea would be disturbed, had crawled out from behind the woodwork apparently to see what all the commotion was! So at least we know that vibrating the wood will drive the spiders out of hiding.

[Ken Smith]

I don't think most folks that understand thermodynamics would require proof in every individual case. Enough has been proven that most general cases are predictable. Not everything needs to be that well understood to be put to practical use, either. Take for instance the rather complex engineering of the Roman aqueducts that were built long before Isaac Newton accurately described the forces of gravity. The Romans took their observations as practical fact without any "science". And Ken's experience is that older, well played basses generally sound better. He doesn't need an explanation. So his advice to "play the bass" or to "buy an old one" is pretty solid and well founded. It isn't strange to me that his view is perfectly consistent with what thermodynamics would predict.

Speaking of Thermo, my head heats up when I read posts like this, long and Scientific!

So if playing a Bass till it's old makes it sound better, how can you say it's the thermodynamics thingamajig thingy and not just the experience of the harmonics of the wood communicating with itself to sound more mature, seasoned and complex?

On the heat theory, in 1971 shortly after buying a beautiful W.B.Wilfer Bass I got a job for a few weeks on a Cruise Ship. One day while docked in Puerto Rico I took the Bass out in the hot sun and played it for an hour of so in hopes of aging the Bass faster. All it did was make me tired and dehydrated!:( I don't think that Bass got much from my 'heated' jamming..

If this heat thing is true then I ask you, should one move down South when buying a new Bass and then move up North again after the heat has aged it quicker?

Speaking of time, imagine how much better your own Bass would sound, age and mature if you played it for as long as you spent typing these 'marathon' theoretical posts that most of us get dizzy just trying to read!

Just a thought..lol;)

[David Powell]

When I posted this, a heated and agitated discussion was not what I had in mind.
:o

Just offering a plausible explanation for what so many of us observe about old and "played-in" instruments. As subtle as the effects would be I don't think one instance of extreme heat exposure or extended playing would mimic true aging. It is possible to add so much heat that the whole natural aging process is wrecked in favor of reactions that only proceed at the higher temperatures. I'd think dehydrating the bass would remove a good deal of the moisture that is one of the necessary vehicles in the wood for acid / base reactions to happen. That is why kiln drying arrests the normal drying / aging process and these woods are not as good for tone wood, but are softer and more desirable for carving into other things that are not musical instruments. Wood carvers prefer kiln dried wood, musical instrument makers usually do not. And the kiln dried stuff is reputedly softer.

I wouldn't recommend any extreme measures to accelerate the aging of an instrument made from relatively new wood. Hooking it up to a jack-hammer or leaving it in the car in full sun are certainly not good ideas. :eek:

Normal seasonal changes with the wood taking up moisture and releasing it and regular playing is probably the safest practice. But I do think it is desirable for builders to use wood that is as old as they can possibly obtain because aged wood is aged wood, regardless of when it was carved into a bass. In fact, the heart wood in a live tree is actually dead already, and is much more aged than the outer tree rings even when a tree is harvested. That part of a tree, the old dead wood in the center, is structural support for the living outer part of the tree. It is biologically adaptive for the tree to have stronger aged dead wood in the center. That way it can get taller, withstand the higher winds, and get the best light for photosynthesis.

It is a shame to me that we are losing the best American spruce for future musical instruments to the timber / lumber export market.

[David Powell]

Speaking of Thermo, my head heats up when I read posts like this, long and Scientific!

So if playing a Bass till it's old makes it sound better, how can you say it's the thermodynamics thingamajig thingy and not just the experience of the harmonics of the wood communicating with itself to sound more mature, seasoned and complex?I can't;- I didn't;- and it is plausible that the two things you mention are in fact the same thing, just described differently.

Speaking of time, imagine how much better your own Bass would sound, age and mature if you played it for as long as you spent typing these 'marathon' theoretical posts that most of us get dizzy just trying to read!

Just a thought..lol;) I wrote the post above while I was waiting for my breakfast order to get to my table. I take my laptop there and take advantage of the wifi, not my DB. Believe me, if I could get my DB up to the counter there for some extra time on it, I would.:o

[Ken Smith]

what so many of us observe about old and "played-in" instruments.

Yes David, I believe that what IS, just IS!!

"What so many of us observe about old and "played-in" instruments."

The best way to have a Bass that sounds old and broken in is to have a Bass that is old and broken in..lol

[quote]When I posted this, a heated and agitated discussion was not what I had in mind.[/qoute]

So who got heated and agitated here? This is a topic with one foot in the 'Twilight Zone' (http://frogstar.soylentgeek.com/wav/twilzone.wav) ..:eek:

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

David,
http://www.amazon.com/Einstein-Life-Universe-Walter-Isaacson/dp/0743264738/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-2841014-2924955?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181002971&sr=1-1

Your theory reminds me of this fabulous book. You might enjoy it.
It's not that I doubt the validity of your ideas; just that they seem to be so theoretical as to have no possible application to anyone I can think of.

Personally, I've got enough to think about just concentrating on my playing. :eek:


BTW, Einstein was ridiculed mercilessly early in his career. The fact that people may not want to listen shouldn't discourage you.;)

[David Powell]

David,
http://www.amazon.com/Einstein-Life-Universe-Walter-Isaacson/dp/0743264738/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-2841014-2924955?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181002971&sr=1-1

Your theory reminds me of this fabulous book. You might enjoy it.
It's not that I doubt the validity of your ideas; just that they seem to be so theoretical as to have no possible application to anyone I can think of.

Personally, I've got enough to think about just concentrating on my playing. :eek:


BTW, Einstein was ridiculed mercilessly early in his career. The fact that people may not want to listen shouldn't discourage you.;) Well, I don't think I can claim thermodynamics as "my theory" but when you see one of those bumper stickers that says "Honk, if you passed P Chem!", I'm one of the people who can honk. The connection between vibration, heat and the wood chemistry was just something that occurred to me as I was re-reading this thread while stirring some sugar into hot coffee. I probably should have pointed the coffee out as an example, but I kind of ran past that part (too much caffeine), but that is a good illustration of heat and agitation. Developing film (agitation every 30 seconds, tight control of the temperature because it will not develop colder than 60 degrees and will badly overdevelop above 75 degrees, and the agitation is necessary to freshen up the reactants in the gelatin layer) is another. And not unlike the hemi-cellulose / cellulose in wood, the film fixer will attack the silver image when it is done dissolving the unexposed silver salts, so that has to be carefully timed also. Well, it's just a laboratory recipe really. Just like cooking to me. What can I say? I plead guilty to being a chemist nerd. What's that got to do with music you might ask? Well a violinist and a pianist invented Kodachrome. Couple of Einsteins there for sure. They knew enough about harmony to apply it to light. It was a 14 step chemical process. Still the most permanent color film process there is, or was maybe. Digital is taking over. I think it is only processed in Switzerland now.

Thanks for the link, Clink. Almost all the nerds get flack at some point. Usually doesn't slow us down. Right now I'm building an off-the-grid studio in the middle of a major metropolitan city to illustrate that all we need for energy is the sun. Well, it better be enough because it is all we really have.:o Of course the previous mayor of Atlanta (he should be about half-way through his federal jail sentence about now) would have denied my building permit because his cronies wanted to force me to sell my properties to them cheap. So I had to wait for that @#$%! to be out of office before I could proceed. That one was a real exercise in thermodynamics;- the building design I mean. I'm using vacuum tube heat collectors that work in temperatures well below freezing and even on cloudy days. The entire roof is a translucent polycarbonate skylight. It will use a subfloor hydronic tube radiant heat system. Passive cooling is provided by a couple of 150 year old oak trees that shade the whole site, if these survive the current drought. If it ever rains again in Georgia (we are beginning to wonder) all the roof water will be collected for household use. In a normal year that will provide 46 gallons / day. The vacuum tube heat collector technology is 30 years old, and pretty well proven by now. It is not too expensive to do it all either. Definitely better than burning the midnight oil. I guess it has put me in this mode of ****yzing everything in terms of heat loss and gain. I'll be glad when it is finished.

[Ken Smith]

That one was a real exercise in thermodynamics;- the building design I mean. I'm using vacuum tube heat collectors that work in temperatures well below freezing and even on cloudy days. The entire roof is a translucent polycarbonate skylight. It will use a subfloor hydronic tube radiant heat system. Passive cooling is provided by a couple of 150 year old oak trees that shade the whole site, if these survive the current drought. If it ever rains again in Georgia (we are beginning to wonder) all the roof water will be collected for household use. In a normal year that will provide 46 gallons / day.

And you waste your free time talking to us Bass players?:confused:

I have a hard enough time using the microwave oven...lol

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I was re-reading this thread while stirring some sugar into hot coffee.

That's your problem. Drinking it black will help you think more clearly:D.
Whassamadda, don't you like coffee the way it is:confused:.

[David Powell]

So here I am stirring the coffee again. It's not necessary. The sugar would disslove anyway, given enough time. But I'd like to drink it now, or at least in this lifetime. And even if it were not hot, the sugar would eventually dissolve anyway also. As long as it does not make a saturated solution and crystalize out. What is is, but a chemist would say what is is because of Brownian movement (no, that's not what happens after you eat a brownie). At room temperature Thermodynamics favors a uniform sugar solution in the water in the coffee. And by attempting to understand why what is is, the chemist might be able to make what isn't is.

And if I had a really sensitive thermometer, perhaps that old mercury one that I used when I hand developed 4x5 Ektachrome, I could see the coffee get hotter as I stir, because the stirring really is the heat, just like the heat is the stirring.

I have this 1965 Harmony Classical guitar. It was Dad's guitar. Dad didn't have a lot of time to play it, let alone time to waste posting on a DB internet forum. He read pulp fiction while his coffee got cold. Well, as was common with those inexpensive student guitars of that era, the solid spruce top was much better than the craftmanship that glued it to the mahogany sides, back, and neck. In short the intonation was horrible, and over time the instrument just mostly sat in the case in a closet. No one could bring themselves to sell Dad's old guitar, so as executor of his will, I wound up being the caretaker of it with the understanding it would be a family heirloom. So one day in the mid nineties I got it out of the closet and strummed it. It wasn't in tune, but something had changed over the years. The tone was incredible. So I did some research and fixed the bridge bone using the factory specifications for the string clearances at the 12th and 17th fret that at the time were published on the internet by the Korean company that bought the old Harmony brand name. And now the guitar sounds fabulous. But no one stirred it for 25 years or more. It simply aged in the case. In this case, I think it is evidence that the perceived improvement that I heard in tone would have happened anyway due to aging. Playing it over the years might have speeded it up, but that didn't happen in this case, although I do play it some now. Also the top color was very different even though it had been in a dark closet. What had been a very light colored spruce top had become a honey golden color. And the top had a hairline crack right down the middle where it was joined (no problem, there was a brace right under the join.)

I guess what I am saying is this, and it is really the only part of my idea that is theoretical, the rest is well accepted, and that is this: That the changes we perceive as a result of aging or playing, or by Reumont's procedure, are all really the same thing, just happening at different rates depending on various factors that speed up the inevitable changes in the wood as it progresses toward the state most favored by Thermodynamics. I think that is as simply as I can state the concept. I would never pretend that it is fact. It's just an idea. What is, is, and by thermodynamics, what will be, will be.

And I will graciously thank Mr. Ken Smith for indulging me and allowing me to post my idea here and remind him that I have no better way to waste my time than in the present company here. Oops. The coffee is cold!

[Paul Warburton]

I had an old ISB magazine...back in the days when they looked like newspapers... that had an article and a picture of a guy and his son with a gizmo the dad had rigged up to bow open strings on the sons bass, while the son was in the army. It was made with a couple of pulleys and the old man would turn it on using a timer each day!
I saw a Nova program once where a guy played a new violin and they were able to take pictures of the molecules in the top of the violin. The molecules looked like so many sperm trying to move out of a chunk of other sperm. Don't laugh! Then they handed him a Strad..... the molecules had actually carved a path in the top, looking something like a river!
Something to think about? Or bull****?

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Paul,
I don't think I'll go near my bass today, thank you.

[Bob Branstetter]

I saw a Nova program once where a guy played a new violin and they were able to take pictures of the molecules in the top of the violin. The molecules looked like so many sperm trying to move out of a chunk of other sperm. Don't laugh! Then they handed him a Strad..... the molecules had actually carved a path in the top, looking something like a river!
Something to think about? Or bull****?Sounds like Joseph Nagyvary has got himself back on PBS again. How many times has he rediscovered the "secret" of Stardivarius? I lost count.

[Ken Smith]

I had an old ISB magazine...back in the days when they looked like newspapers... that had an article and a picture of a guy and his son with a gizmo the dad had rigged up to bow open strings on the sons bass, while the son was in the army. It was made with a couple of pulleys and the old man would turn it on using a timer each day!
I saw a Nova program once where a guy played a new violin and they were able to take pictures of the molecules in the top of the violin. The molecules looked like so many sperm trying to move out of a chunk of other sperm. Don't laugh! Then they handed him a Strad..... the molecules had actually carved a path in the top, looking something like a river!
Something to think about? Or bull****?

Paul, this is probably just some old Worm tracks. I have a few Basses that have old Worm marks so looking inside, one would see the tracks they made while feeding.`

If only a dead Worm could talk...:(

[Ken Smith]

Sounds like Joseph Nagyvary has got himself back on PBS again. How many times has he rediscovered the "secret" of Stardivarius? I lost count.

Bob, the real secret I seek about Strad is how he lived to 93 years of age in the early 18th century! Forget about his Varnish, I want some of that Pasta and Wine!;)

[David Powell]

Well, all theories aside, I had another practical experience with this last night. I had been playing with a couple of folk fellows for about a year and last year due to other commitments, family, etc., these two fellows took a long break. We have a gig soon requested by an old fan so last night we put the band back together and the perception of both of those fellows was that my bass was both louder now and has more bottom end now. I haven't changed anything about the set-up of the bass in almost 3 years now. They were using amps on the dreadnoughts to keep up with my volume. Of course for the last year my bass has been getting a lot of playing time.

Just out of curiosity, how large are wormholes and the worms that chew on basses? I have some odd looking almost microscopic looking little winding patterns forming under the finish of the bass on the top where the corner blocks are glued to the top. Could that be a sign of an infestation? It is just in the areas where the corner blocks are. I'd take a photo, but I don't have any macro attachments for digital cameras and these are really, really, tiny little lines.

[Ken Smith]

Well, all theories aside, I had another practical experience with this last night. I had been playing with a couple of folk fellows for about a year and last year due to other commitments, family, etc., these two fellows took a long break. We have a gig soon requested by an old fan so last night we put the band back together and the perception of both of those fellows was that my bass was both louder now and has more bottom end now. I haven't changed anything about the set-up of the bass in almost 3 years now. They were using amps on the dreadnoughts to keep up with my volume. Of course for the last year my bass has been getting a lot of playing time.

Just out of curiosity, how large are wormholes and the worms that chew on basses? I have some odd looking almost microscopic looking little winding patterns forming under the finish of the bass on the top where the corner blocks are glued to the top. Could that be a sign of an infestation? It is just in the areas where the corner blocks are. I'd take a photo, but I don't have any macro attachments for digital cameras and these are really, really, tiny little lines.

Worm holes are about the size or a small pin maybe 1mm or so at most. I have never seen the actual worm myself, just the holes.

Basses shift in the summer and winter. Some basses sound better one season or another depending on the bass and its set-up. On wood aging, I doubt your Bass was aged as well as some of the older instruments especially those by the master makers. Then again, many quick made instruments were not seasoned as well and after 100 years, look much worse that well season wooded made instruments well over 200 years old.

One of the secrets is not a secret. It's just good quality and care in every step of the making. This is something that many makers could not afford to do money and time wise. They needed to make a living as well. The Back on my Hart Bass (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Hart/HARTback.jpg) (c.1830) is to die for while my Loveri Back (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Loveri/images/loveri_fullB.jpg) (bass made 1873) is just the opposite although I have seen worse, much worse and on Basses half their age!

[Bob Branstetter]

I knew it had to be Nagyvary and it was. Here (http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/888) an article on his latest brainstorm. This time the "secret" is borax. He seems to come up with a new "secret" about every ten years. He always gets lots of free air time on PBS and more grant money from the government whenever he announces his latest "discovery". When his "discoveries" are questioned by organizations that have been doing serious violin research for over 50 years such as the Catgut Acoustical Society, his answer is always something like this quote. "The American Chemical Society has confirmed my research and my basic premise - that chemicals are the prominent reason why a Stradivarius has such a distinct sound."

Soooooo - If you want to find out about great violins, visit your local chemist.:)

[David Powell]

I knew it had to be Nagyvary and it was. Here (http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/888) an article on his latest brainstorm. This time the "secret" is borax. He seems to come up with a new "secret" about every ten years. He always gets lots of free air time on PBS and more grant money from the government whenever he announces his latest "discovery". When his "discoveries" are questioned by organizations that have been doing serious violin research for over 50 years such as the Catgut Acoustical Society, his answer is always something like this quote. "The American Chemical Society has confirmed my research and my basic premise - that chemicals are the prominent reason why a Stradivarius has such a distinct sound."

Soooooo - If you want to find out about great violins, visit your local chemist.:) To a chemist, biology is nothing but chemistry; to a physicist, chemistry is nothing but physics; to a mathematician, physics is all just mathematics; to a philosopher, mathematics is just applied philosophy. It seems to be a matter of people ****yzing things from their own limited perspective in any case. But I tend to look at things in terms of the chemistry as well, not this is an endorsement of Nagyvary. I'm not familiar with his claims. But it is a very easy out to say that something is due to chemistry and nothing else because everything has a characteristic chemistry. It's quite different to look to chemistry for possible causes rather than "secrets". You know me, I think the idea that something is a "secret" is all BS. It just means we don't know why and probably Stradivari, if we could ask him, didn't know why either, even if he knew how. For years photographers thought sodium thiosulfate was sodium hyposulfate. The fixer didn't work any better or worse after its true chemical nature was described.

It is just as easy to say it is due to the weather because the weather is always there too. Incidentally, Ken, I think you are right about the summer / winter thing. My bass sounds better in the summer. I probably need to cut a winter soundpost for it. The one that's in there was cut in late August and one that I cut earlier in April of that year is about a sixteenth of an inch shorter.

I think Stradivari's secret was working with the construction phases in the natural cycles of the seasons. (that's not a real serious statement, but if it were, it would affect the chemistry, and Nagyvary would probably point that out.) If someone breathes on a piece of wood, it affects the chemistry. Everything effects the chemistry. If you want an all inclusive answer, the details will always be found in "the chemistry". The real question is one of cause and effect. What causes the characteristic chemistry? Chemistry by itself is just a snapshot of a state at a particular time. Without more to understand what makes the chemistry happen, it is a very open ended claim. Just like these people that find all of this supposed significance in the "numerology" of the pyramids' construction. It is all hindsight ****ysis, which is quite risky.

This is getting off topic, but my recent construction project in hindsight looks like someone built it using the fibonacci series for the various proportions. You can find the whole series in there. You know why? Because we wanted to not have to cut the boards so much. That left us starting with 4x8 sheets and the whole series proceeded to appear after that one fact. Totally coincidental. And then it is also lined up with the sun, (which was deliberate), but also convenient since the whole street was layed out on a North / South and East / West grid. If one looks for answers in a certain way, they usually find a peg to hang their hat on. It is tough to be totally objective.

[David Powell]

I hope this is not a © infringement:

From that article:
"According to Nagyvary, further work is needed to ascertain exactly what went into the chemical treatment. But, he said, his "educated guess" was that it was oxidising minerals that were used to protect against wood-boring beetle larvae."

Further work is needed, means I am running out or grant money??? A little more:

"I assume that either there was a location where the wood was treated, or the solution, a mineral powder, was provided to the craftsmen, and they soaked and boiled their wood in that solution to kill the woodworm and to stop the growth of rotting fungi....."

Assumptions primarily. Not very convincing, but still an interesting theory. And even if there is a difference in the chemical wood content, I am more inclined to believe it was the skill of the carver that made the critical difference. I should boil my bass in these minerals just in cast though. Do you think that will hurt the tone? Maybe I should let the worms chew a bit more first??

[Bob Branstetter]

should boil my bass in these minerals just in cast though. Do you think that will hurt the tone? Maybe I should let the worms chew a bit more first??I've been working on violins, violas, celli and basses for well over 40 years and I've yet to see worm damage in modern instruments. I'm not saying it can't happen, but I will say that it is it is about as likely as you getting hit by a meteor this afternoon.

[David Powell]

I've been working on violins, violas, celli and basses for well over 40 years and I've yet to see worm damage in modern instruments. I'm not saying it can't happen, but I will say that it is it is about as likely as you getting hit by a meteor this afternoon. That's good to hear. I'm guessing these little lines I'm seeing are something else. They are so small;- hairline but squiggly. I'm thinking since it is in the block areas only that it has something to do with end grain meeting the top plate. Probably seasonal expansion and contraction. Mostly this DB is real stable. I have the strings at about 5 mm on the G going up to about 11 mm for the low B. It only changes about a .5 mm seasonally. I don't even have bridge adjusters on it. I don't know know what I'd use them for. I'm crossing my fingers that it stays that way a few more years.

[David Powell]

This was too amusing not to post, and since I own a Kremona,:D I'll share it:

"There is an old story that Stradivari and Amati used to buy their wood from the majestic Bulgarian Rodopi Mountains . Part of the secret of the Kremona instruments lies in the acoustic characteristics of the Spruce and Maple woods coming from Bulgarian mountains. "

- from the newly incarnated homepage of the now American company: KremonaUSA

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

:eek:
Good thing I've got a cup of good black coffee to wash that down with.:D

[Ken Smith]

:eek:
Good thing I've got a cup of good black coffee to wash that down with.:D


Guys, we are wasting our time and what a shame being that we are musicians to boot. :eek:

There's a Song that actually explains this right in the title! ;)

"Breaking-IN is hard to do (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv8X-_3pl64)".. Ah Duhhhhhh:p

[Paul Warburton]

Paul, this is probably just some old Worm tracks. I have a few Basses that have old Worm marks so looking inside, one would see the tracks they made while feeding.`

If only a dead Worm could talk...:(

Naw, Kenny Boy, these were molecules taken with a camera....they looked like so many SPERM making tracks. I saw this with my own eyeballs! :eek:

[Ken Smith]

Naw, Kenny Boy, these were molecules taken with a camera....they looked like so many SxxxM making tracks. I saw this with my own eyeballs! :eek:

Paul, you're in 'rare form' today. I am glad to see you're feeling better.

But why do you always have to be so serious?..:p

Both my Martini and Gilkes seems to have some old Worm tracks. Are you suggesting I look closer to see if something else 'breeding' there?

[Bob Branstetter]

Naw, Kenny Boy, these were molecules taken with a camera....they looked like so many SPERM making tracks. I saw this with my own eyeballs! :eek:I would assume that since Paul is talking about molecules, that he is actually talking about are photos taken through an electron microscope or something similar. I imagine that a wood worm hole would like like Carlsbad Caverns on a photo like that.:)

[David Powell]

Paul, it occurred to me that when you found the Bohmann, it had extremely low mileage, but was already several decades old. Did it sound great from the first day or did it "play in" pretty rapidly? I'm thinking it might have had those molecules streaming the first day you played it? ;)