Would I benefit from a new bow?

[Dwight McCartney]

I have been taking lessons for about 6 months and I use an inexpensive ($100.) bow right now. It seems to work for what I am doing, I wonder if I am at a point where this could be holding me back? As a still relative beginner, would I notice the difference if I got a Loveri or other bow in that catagory?
All suggestions or ideas welcome,
thanks,
Dwight

[Michael Holden]

The best way to judge is to use your instructors bow (hopefully it is of better quality than yours.) Play a variety of passages and, be honest, can you pull a better sound from the better bow. Then say "Is this improvement in sound really worth another $400-$1,000?"... if it is, than yes... if it isn't then your bow is working just fine. IMHO.

[Dwight McCartney]

Yes, great idea. I will try that next lesson. Thanks.

[Dwight McCartney]

Yes, my goodness, there was a very noticable difference.
While I don't know the terminology to describe it, my teachers bow was easier to play and get good steady sound with, and felt better...balance?

Time to do some serious shopping I guess.

[Michael Holden]

Yes IMHO that is the one of the hardest part about handmaking a bow, the balance of the bow. An inexpensive, student model bow will fight you everyway, that's what's happening to me now.
Right now I'm getting 5 Horst John bows in the mail to try out, and looking for much better balance, and sound. I just try everything in my power to use every bow that I come in contact with, If you pick up one bow, then pick up an identical bow from the same bowmaker, it will be completely different. Some great bassists use bows that are only about $500-$1,000 just because it is perfect for them. That's why I don't agree with a lot of people (not going to mention names) who brag about their bow made from a very reputable bow maker, and paid thousands and thousands of dollars for it, and they ignore the $400 bows... when those $400 bows they ignore may be the best bow they have (n)ever used.
So be sure you don't say "okay ... I'm getting a nice bow from a decent bowmaker, it has to be good" ... you may get it and it be crap (not saying the bow will... but for your playing style it may not work).
Uptonbass.com has a bow that I want very badly. Unfortunately they don't have the option of trying the bow before purchasing. So I'm not going to purchase it just because of that fact. chances are it's a good bow... but I'm not going to fork out $2,000 for a bow I'm not 100% is going to be perfect for me.
Good luck looking for that perfect bow... I'll tell you from my recent experiance... it's a lot of work , fun work, but work none the less

[Ken Smith]

I don't know what Bows you are trying but in todays world, a $400 Bow is usually Chinese made regardless of where it is shipped from. I have contracted almost 200 Bows made by a top shop in China. These are good playing well balanced Bows of my design. Some are better than others but comparing them in sound, playability or feel they do not make it up to the likes of my Bazin, Bultitude, Lipkins or even the Eibert Bows I have not to mention the Sartory I used to own.

Good is good but great is not easy to come by. Also, not all Bows that cost thousands are great Bows either. This is where you start looking back at your $400 Bow. When you draw a Bow across the strings it vibrates like any other wood part of your Bass. This translates to the feel of the Bow. Does the Bow sit on the String itself of do you have to use hand/wrist pressure to make it work? Can you get the sound with ease or do you have to fight it a bit or more. Does it play evenly from Frog to Tip or does the sound quit after the first half of the Bow? Is the tone thinner sounding than the more expensive Bow or is it just as thick and full?

I have owned many many 'great' Bows in my life and a few expensive ones that were not so great. Unless the Bow is made with god consistent materials by a good maker (in China, Brazil or anywhere else) and with a goos design, it will be hard to find a Bow that comes close to one of the known great makers works.

Also, I find that beginner players have trouble judging a Bow because the may have already developed bad habits compensating with a bad un-balanced Bow with a weak Tip response/performance, their technique is not fully developed and the ear for judging is not yet refined. Also, what kind of Bass are you testing this with? The lower cost Basses can have their own set of problems as well making it harder to judge plus you need to have good orchestral bowing strings on the Bass as well.

The Loveri model Bows we have made for us were first tested and compared to my Lipkins Bow. At about 1/10th the price we here at the shop agreed it was scary close reaching 60-80% the sound and performance of a 5-6k cost/value Bow. I use that term 'cost/value' together because they are made now at that price and sell used around the same selling price when purchased.

At one concert last summer I brought 3 C.Loveri Bows from the first batch made. With 2 other Basses in the section than day, I came home with only one Bow, selling the other two to my section mates. Having another Professional buy your Bow on the spot speaks for itself...

[Dwight McCartney]

I'm not looking for a several thousand dollar pro bow. I just know that using my teachers bow, I didn't have to pressure the bow into the strings, just needed to move it across and it sounded good. And it was easier to hold.

[Ken Smith]

I'm not looking for a several thousand dollar pro bow. I just know that using my teachers bow, I didn't have to pressure the bow into the strings, just needed to move it across and it sounded good. And it was easier to hold.

I know, but my point is that even though you can find a better Bow like the ones discussed, they do not match up to the master Bows that cost 10x the price. A workable Bow and a master Bow are two different things but not all expensive Bows are as-workable. I hope you understand my meaning here.

[Michael Holden]

I think we do understand your point, my point is the pricetag is not a good way to determine a good bow. How many times do you see "unamed german bow $3,000". I have found in my experiance that those bows are priced based on it's playing capabilities. Now the owner of that string shop is the person determining the price. Ken, you are quite the experianced bass player, and although I have never heard you, I am going to assume you are a good player. If you picked up that bow, after owning a sartory, and your lipkins bows; you may have said "okay that bow is $800"
It is all relative. In my personal experiance I have tried 3 german bows (french frog, origin in Germany) and I have also tried 2 Marco Raposo bows... One of the Raposo Bows KILLED the German bows. The other Raposo was good but not great. I also think the Brazilian bowmakers do not get the credit they deserve. They charge must less for more bow. Everybody I've been talking to says that is due to the fact they don't have to import their wood, that they just take it from their plantations... I don't buy that just because every Raposo bow I have tried is definitly just as capable and playable has the $2k bows I have tried, The raposo bows are going for $1k. I don't see getting rid of the "importing costs" of importing the wood cutting the cost of the bow in half.
I'm not comparing these to Sartory or Lipkins bows... but I am comparing these to MANY bows out there in the $2k price range.

[Ken Smith]

That is fairly an open market up to 2-3k I must admit. I have two Bows made in NY by Peter Eibert. He is German and although he made me a Sartory model as the second Bow, still I can see his German styling throughout. I bought the first one from him a year or so earlier and although he asked for less as it was an older Bow, the stick is better and plays better too.

Prices are sometimes parallel to the makers economy and sometimes it's what the market will bare. In the case of Lipkins and Fuchs being two of the best, they can command their price whereas makers of less repute may only collect 50-75% of the price of the top makers prices regardless of how good they are.

Also, makers that are not as good as the Top may also make Bows that don't perform any better than a good grade Chinese Bow but still charge 2-3k or more for their efforts.

Some Bows are beautifully made but just don't work so well while some ugly ducklings sound sweet as pie but need a blind eye to look at...lol

[Michael Holden]

Yea I am looking forward to these Horst John bows... from the pictures that I can see the heel of the frog is a sharp corner, I've never used a bow without it being rounded on the heel of the frog. But after using the Raposo bows I am VERY surprised in the brazilian bowmakers. so I'm open to trying new things

[Ken Smith]

I would nice to have all these Bows in one room to compare and judge their values and consistencies from bow to bow within each brand/maker.

[Michael Holden]

I agree, and I think that's where 90% of the debate comes from when it comes to bows. If you take one bow and play it on one bass, it could some great... take the same bow and put it on a different bass, and it sounds like crap. Now take the same combination, put it in a different bass player's hands and it will sound 100% different, that is my point. Ken, if you were to give me a sartory bow, and a $20k bass. I'd sound like me, now if you gave the principle bassist in the NY Philharmonic, a palentino and a $50 chinese bow... he's sound completely better then me. There are way too many factors to say "This bow is better" or "this bass is better" .. it's whatever works for the individual musician.
I don't mean to beat the proverbial dead horse... but isn't Edgar Meyer's bow a cheapo? I don't know about you.. but I think he's a decent bassist...
and I hate to start another debate, but I also think the hair on the bow plays a larger part then most musicians admit to.

[Ken Smith]

I agree, and I think that's where 90% of the debate comes from when it comes to bows. If you take one bow and play it on one bass, it could some great... take the same bow and put it on a different bass, and it sounds like crap. Now take the same combination, put it in a different bass player's hands and it will sound 100% different, that is my point. Ken, if you were to give me a sartory bow, and a $20k bass. I'd sound like me, now if you gave the principle bassist in the NY Philharmonic, a palentino and a $50 chinese bow... he's sound completely better then me. There are way too many factors to say "This bow is better" or "this bass is better" .. it's whatever works for the individual musician.
I don't mean to beat the proverbial dead horse... but isn't Edgar Meyer's bow a cheapo? I don't know about you.. but I think he's a decent bassist...
and I hate to start another debate, but I also think the hair on the bow plays a larger part then most musicians admit to.

I do not agree with you. A good sounding Bass or Bow is just that. Sure a better player can make a bass sound better but a lesser player sounds better with better equipment and will develop better technique as well. I don't know where you get your ides from but in my world sound is sound. On the Hair, yes it makes a difference but a Bow can sound its best only with good hair. White or Black sounds different but matching hair as a bit like matching strings but with less choices.

On Edgar's Bow costing $10? Where and when did he buy it? I heard that Bob Riccardi (former owner of my Cornerless Bass for 40 years who died a few months ago) once found a Sartory Bass Bow at a flea market for a few bucks as well? Does that make his Bow a $10 Bow too? What a Bow costs and what a Bow IS is not always the same thing.

I paid $400 for my Sartory! Does that make it a $400 Bow? Now it's 10-15k. The previous one sold in NY b4 mine was $200 a few years earlier.

$5-$20 was the going rate for German Shop Bows in the mid to late '60s into the '70s. These included the Bows from Juzek/Metropolitan Music. My Roche Bow was $60. My Vitale was $75. It broke at the Screw end a few years later, was fixed and sold a few years later. Repaired, I sold it for $125 to a VERY famous Bass player who wasn't famous then. All this before 1972 in case you are wondering.

I am sure that if Edgar used a Sartory or Bultitude, he and his Bass would sound better. I too can use a cheapo Bow on my Basses but that doesn't mean it's the best I can sound. I can also play a piece of crap Bass and make it sound but polishing a turd is not my way of making music.

Bottom line, get the best you can afford and keep it well repaired. Don't get caught up on who can make what piece of junk sound better than a beginner can make it sound. Where does that theory get you?

[Michael Holden]

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. A good bass player is not one that can take $100,000 worth of instrument and make it sound great. It's a person who can take any instrument and make it sound great. I agree with you, the key is to buy the best gear you can afford and keep it in good repair. But I do disagree with your previous statement.
I heard a great statement on another bass forum. "The bass is the canvas and the bow is the brush... you decide which is more important." Well give a 3 yr old a $10k canvas... then a $3,000 brush... let's see him do his best, then go to walmart.. by a $5 brush and $7 paint sketch book, and give it to DaVinci... let's see who's painting you'd rather have.
Now back to my point, if daVinci felt better painting with a $5 brush, would he be less of an artist? what if the expensive brush didn't "fit" him as well as the cheap one... would he not have been the artist that he was? Mr. Smith I don't know you, so I cannot point fingers, but I know string players who when shopping for a bow, will not touch a bow under $3,000. I disagree with their idea of bow quality, because they may like a $1,000 bow better then their current $3k... My opinion is... if your budget is $3k... try every bow from $600 - $3k that you can... the lesser priced ones may surprise you.

[Ken Smith]

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. A good bass player is not one that can take $100,000 worth of instrument and make it sound great. It's a person who can take any instrument and make it sound great. I agree with you, the key is to buy the best gear you can afford and keep it in good repair. But I do disagree with your previous statement.
I heard a great statement on another bass forum. "The bass is the canvas and the bow is the brush... you decide which is more important." Well give a 3 yr old a $10k canvas... then a $3,000 brush... let's see him do his best, then go to walmart.. by a $5 brush and $7 paint sketch book, and give it to DaVinci... let's see who's painting you'd rather have.
Now back to my point, if daVinci felt better painting with a $5 brush, would he be less of an artist? what if the expensive brush didn't "fit" him as well as the cheap one... would he not have been the artist that he was? Mr. Smith I don't know you, so I cannot point fingers, but I know string players who when shopping for a bow, will not touch a bow under $3,000. I disagree with their idea of bow quality, because they may like a $1,000 bow better then their current $3k... My opinion is... if your budget is $3k... try every bow from $600 - $3k that you can... the lesser priced ones may surprise you.

Well, I don't know you either except your 23 and playing only a short time. I have played for over 40 years and know the Bass and the Bass business better than most.

Dealers will price Bows according to name and quality. A good Bow as good as a 3k Bow will not sell for $600, sry. If it's good, it will be priced for what the maker will bare. If it's a name maker, it will be priced according to the maker and quality combined. Sartory can go from 10-15k on average. That will vary in a single Shop by the individual Bow but different Shops in different parts of the world may sell them higher or lower. Some dealers ship Instruments and Bows to other dealers where they will being more money. This is called networking. Did you know that networking exists in this business too?

The Bultitude Bow I sold was on consignment with me from a London Shop. I sold the Bow for them as I could sell it here and they couldn't sell it there at the time.

I don't know what you are getting at with your brush thing but better Basses are just that and will sound better no mater who plays them and the same goes for Bows. Yes, the better player can get more out of it but why would he play on a lesser instrument?

Find me a Bow exactly like the one Edgar has and get it for $10. I dare you! His claim of using a $10 Bow is more of a figure of speech as even the cheapest Chinese Bows that sell for $50-$100 are barely usable by any Pro player. His Bow is more like an older German stick he picked up somewhere at a bargain price a long time ago. That doesn't make it a $10 Bow because he got it for $10.

If I find and English Bass for 5k broken and fix it and can get 60k for it, does that make it a 5k Bass if I haven't yet sold it? What you pay is not necessarily the value of what you have.

I just sold a $20 Prescott for almost 50k? Do you believe me? In 1820, it sold new for $20. I have the Prescott records from 1808-1828 with all his sales figures so I know this. But, 186 years later, the price just happens to be a little higher? Does that mean I played in a Symphony with a $20 Bass because that's what it first cost?

Just because a good player can make crap sound better than a beginner can, don't think that's what they would rather play. Also, don't think a better player sounds the same on a 100K as he does on a cheap plywood Bass either.

There is a reason why people pay the prices they do for good Basses and Bows. One day, you will understand this further than just the written word.

[Michael Holden]

Mr. Smith I do appreciate your experiance, and I also appreciate how "respected" you are in the industry. I just completely disagree with you. I do agree that there are better bows out there... I do agree there are better basses, I also agree that bows in the $3k range are better then the bows in the $800 range.
But I disagree that the $3k bows are best for EVERYBODY. I have been playing classical bass for a short period of time.. but i've play violin since I was 4. So I do have some experiance in the matter. My violin teacher (of 6 years) Was a professional musician. She had a bow, which I don't remember the exact price.. but it was under $1,000. And she impressed upon me, that bows aren't judged by it's price tag. She owned a bow that was much more expensive then her main $1k bow. She said a bow is all about feel. She said she bought the very expensive bows because it helped with one aspect of her playing, but her main bow was the cheaper one. It felt better to her and was easier for her to play.
So Mr. Smith you could be the greatest bass player in the world, but you will never have me agree that any bow over $3k is good for everybody.

[Ken Smith]

Michael, a Violin does not need the pull strength like a Bass does for Bowing.

Just imagine a Bass in your left hand playing like butter with all the smoothness, depth and power without any effort and then imagine a Bow on that Bass that bows like butter from Frog to Tip effortlessly never having to use any wrist pressure to play the note unless dynamics are needed. The Bow just dances on the String any which way you want it to as if you almost have magic technique that you never had before. After 2 or 3 hours of playing, you hands feel fine as if all you did was type a Post on this Forum.

That's what it's like to play a Great Bass and Bow. I do it every day and believe me, "I" can tell the difference even if some others can't.

Experience doesn't come in a bottle. Maybe in 5, 10 or even 20 years you will understand what I am talking about from actually experiencing this rather than just reading or arguing about it.

[Michael Holden]

So Ken... are you saying since the violin doesn't need the pull strength of a bass... the bow doesn't make as big of a difference on the violin??? I'm sorry, That is just more garbage. I'm glad "you" can tell a difference...I can do, BUT I have found a $700 bow which I like better then my instructors Reid Hudson. I have found a $1,300 Prochownik that I had a professional bassist at a string shop play, next to another Reid Hudson... he said the Prochownik was worth more. Every bassist is different, now if you need your expensive bows to play well and feel good playing it, thats you...But I know for me, I didn't like the REid Hudson's I've played, I liked the prochownik better. As did the professional bassist... who I had this same conversation with and he said he had a bow (don't recall the maker) he said it was worth about $8k.. and he said he hated it.. he sold it after having it for 3 months and returned to his $4k. I'm not saying expensive bows aren't good... I'm saying, sometimes cheaper bows are better for certain people... you have to try all bows.

[Nick Hart]

This is an interesting topic, and Ken and Michael are both right. My teacher has a Fetique and a couple of other very high quality bows. But he also has a $400 carbon fiber bow and a couple of mid range bows (800-2000). Are all of these bows equal in quality? Not at all, but he prefers different bows for different things, and I can assure you he sounds the same with every bow, and sounds just as good.

Sound does not come from an instrument or a bow, it comes from the player. Good instruments and good bows make it easier to get that sound. My teacher creates the same sound on my bass that he does on his Ruggieri (granted my bass does sound younger and he has to work a whole lot harder to get that sound on my bass). But his sounds is his sound no matter what instrument he plays on. None of our basses sound as good as the Ruggieri and none of our bows are as good as the Fetique, and when he plays those two together it makes for an amazing sound, but the equipment just enhances the sound, it does not create the sound. I can pretty much guarantee that I will get the same sound out of just about any bow you give me, the difference is cheaper bows work against you, and quality bows such as Fetique and Reid Hudson work for you.

[Tim Bishop]

Well I gotta tell ya, I am enjoying this one thoroughly.........

Ken, I believe you are up to bat!

[Michael Holden]

Mr. Hart, I'm not 100% in agreement with you... I agree with what you said about your instructor. But "I will have the same sound with every bass or bow I play with" that's not accurate... you can have one Prochownik bow, then pick up an exact same bow... and it will sound and feel different, same with the basses. The better the maker the higher the consistency, but there are still differences. That's why I say play EVERY bow you can.

[Ken Smith]

What have we got here?

I have owned 3 Lipkins Bows (2 currently) and 2 Bultitudes recently not to mention all the others. All Bows even by the same maker sound different. I had a 12 year old kid here yesterday with his mom and dad picking out one of my Loveri Bows. He already has a C.Loveri from me and came to buy a second Bow. His was 140 grams so I pulled out 7 Loveri Bows all at 140 grams and laid them out for him to try. The mom and dad as well as the kid could hear the differences from Bow to Bow as could I. Yes, he played about the same with each Bow but some Bows just gave him more sound with his touch.

First off, is that Ruggieri a real labelled authenticated Ruggieri or just attributed to him and which member of the Ruggieri family actually made that Bass? I am just personally curious.

On the Fetique/Ruggeri combo, first off did you know that Fetique Bows are on the light side and considered by most to be more of a solo Bow than an Orchestra Bow?

Prochownick and Hudson are not top of the line Bass Bow makers. They are good but more in the middle of the field as compared to Lipkins and Fuchs.

Each stick used for a Bow will sound and feel different. The Maker cannot change what the wood will do on its own. You guys have a lot to learn yet about Basses, Bows and their differences but it's nice to see this argued in the friendly spirit of things. I just wish you would listen more and argue less. I am not trying to sell you my Lipkins or Bultitude as they are really not for sale. Just trying to tell you from my experience and all the great Basses and Bows I have played and heard played how much they differ. Also, it's not so much that someone sounds almost the same no matter what he plays as you put it but rather how that person feels about how the 'tools' in his hand feel.

[Michael Holden]

I'm not sure if you read my reply, but I agreed... EVERY bow sounds different no two bows sound the same... which even further proves my statement to be correct.

[Nick Hart]

Ken-

I'm not positive about whether it has a label or attributed, he always just says his Ruggieri.

I do now that a Fetique bow is considered a solo bow, but I also come from a school of playing where we believe in one sound for solo and orchestral playing. Mr. Laszlo does have heavier bows that he uses for orchestra, I'm just not sure of the name.

As for Prochownik vs. Hudson vs. Lipkins. I am a German bow player and have never been in touch with a Lipkins German bow so I can't say anything but I've heard great things. Hudson German bows are some of the best modern handmade bows, as well as some others. I do not think Prochownick is in the same class as these two makers, and as of right now it seems like there is nobody in the same class as Lipkins. I'm not getting into that argument though because that is strictly opinionated.

I definitely understand what you are saying about perceived sound. And yes I do know that every bow responds differently, but I have listened and studied with some great players and no matter whose bass or bow they use they have their own individual sound and tone. Obviously an older bass is going to be more open and you will hear more overtones than a new Chinese bass, but I still believe and will not move on the fact that sound is from the player, and the technique in which we use a bow.

Michael -

I wasn't disagreeing with you, I'm sorry I guess. But in my experience that is my opinion, I saw a thread with two people going back and forth saying the exact same thing so I thought I'd add my opinion.


Now I have a question to put out into this thread.

My teacher always taps bows and looks to see if they have a pitch. He says that if the wood of the bow vibrates with a pitch than that is not good because the bow can react with the pitch being created. I was curious about other people's thoughts on this.

[Ken Smith]

Now I have a question to put out into this thread.

My teacher always taps bows and looks to see if they have a pitch. He says that if the wood of the bow vibrates with a pitch than that is not good because the bow can react with the pitch being created. I was curious about other people's thoughts on this.

Everything has a Pitch! Drop a shoe on the Floor. Hit you head against the wall. Kick a tire on a car. If it has a sound at any volume that can be heard, there is a pitch there whether you can guess the note or not. Some 'knocks' might have more harmonics than others and some will sound in a monotone to the ear but everything especially a Bow, has some sort of Pitch.

I don't know what a bad pitch would sound like. Doesn't the balance and color of the sound have something to do with it as well as how well it stays on the string or plays evenly from Frog to Tip? Are you saying he can tap a Bow and tell these things? Is his Crystal Ball made from Albino Pernambuco?

[Brett Clark]

On the surface that sounds good. I guess the theory is if the bow were to resonate at a particular pitch it would dampen(?) that frequency. On the other hand, isn't every stick is going to have some pitch associated with it based on its length and mass? Does he mean that the wood actually "rings" a tone?

Ken-


My teacher always taps bows and looks to see if they have a pitch. He says that if the wood of the bow vibrates with a pitch than that is not good because the bow can react with the pitch being created. I was curious about other people's thoughts on this.

And here are my thoughts about sound: A couple of years ago I went to a bass camp and at one of the master classes the symphony pro played my Engelhardt to demonstrate an aspect of my piece to me and though you could say his style and expertise came through, I can tell you in no uncertain terms that the instrument still sounded like crap. It was actually probably as close to sucessfully polishing a turd as I have seen.:eek:

[Nick Hart]

Brett -

Please do not confuse sound with the timbre, tone and colors an instrument produce. I consider sound something much more specific to the person. The sound is the individual sound that the person produces. Obviously a better bass will have more refined overtones and produce a better timbre than an Englehardt. What I meant was that if we take two players of a very high level and have them play the same bass with the same bow, they bass will sound completely different. And that is because each player produces their own unique sound.

Ken -

The point of what my teacher says is that when your bow has an audible pitch that when you play that note on your bass the bow can vibrate because the frequencies are matched and that can have a negative effect on your playing and be very difficult to do. My teacher is known for having some crazy theories but I'm not really sure what to think about this one.

[Brett Clark]

Nick,

Actually, I think knew what you meant, and I was mainly responding to this comment in one of your earlier posts as you also referenced tone separately from sound.

... great players and no matter whose bass or bow they use they have their own individual sound and tone.

Semantics aside, I will certainly agree that a bassist will sound uniquely like themselves no matter what combination of instrument or bow they use.

[Trevor Bortins]

What a fun discussion!

If I may, some terminology issues are confusing people. "Sound" means different things to different people, and although I agree with Mr. Hart, I think his term should be modified from "sound" to "player's sound" or something similar to avoid future confusion. Most of us should be using the word timbre unless we want to include articulation, dynamics, rhythm, phrasing, timbre, and frequency under the general heading of "Sound." In that case, "Sound" encompasses BOTH equipment (bass, bow, room--including furniture [like chairs, spoons, mothballs, and other people in the room], and ears) and player's sound into one big Sound.

Ha...

As for bows resonating at a frequency. Of course they do! But like every musical instrument, they have a fundamental resonating frequency and some overtones. Those overtones may or may not be in some easily identifiable mathematical happiness (like your standard resonating tube or string: 1*f + 2*f + 3*f + ... + n*f). More likely, they come in some more high-density and more random form like many percussion instruments (Bells being a crazy and cool exception because you can tune the overtones!)

Okay! So when you tap your bow against your leg (as I have a habit of doing during rehearsal) you feel it wiggle at a very low frequency: approximately 10-15 Hz... Some bows may resonate as high as 50 Hz. Our low C is approximately 32.7 Hz. It should be easy to infer that many of the frequencies the bow resonates at and the bass resonates at will overlap and create widely different timbres--canceling and augmenting certain frequencies.

Keep in mind that a huge swath of frequencies is produced when you tap-wiggle your bow or pluck a string--many of which are unrelated to the note we want to hear. The attack alone is more like 5 ms of white noise, and the bow is (ideally) constantly "attacking" the string with the hair and re-plucking it over and over--think about flicking a coin that's already twirling on your tabletop to keep it going, or spinning the carousel your kids are enjoying... that's bowing. (on a side note, now imagine the HUGE amount of effort it would take to change bow directions in a millisecond like we ask our poor basses and bows to do--much less turn the carousel in the opposite direction without your kids flying off... : P) Erm.. the point of that was that that constant "attacking" sound is always going to figure into the timbre in a pretty big way. [haha, "that was that that." I love it]

I'd love to see a study on the interactions of the two in terms of frequency. We could surely do it these days. Perhaps carbon fiber bowmakers have already done it?

Ugh, sorry about the long post... my first post, too! Hope I didn't say anything stupid....

-Trevor

[David Powell]

Ken, I definitely appreciate your insights on finer qualities of bows, playability, etc. I also appreciate your patience with us relatively neophyte players. In my somewhat limited experience with bows, I have found nothing that contradicts anything in your posts in this thread.

As to the issue of what a better player sounds like with a lesser bow, etc., please let me interject that this is a spurious argument and somewhat off the topic. With due respect to all of Mr. Holden's comments, many of which are valid, these also are irrelevant to the issue of will a better bow help a player become a better player. It is also not really relevant that price is not always an indicator of quality. The fact is that it usually is. Sure some bows are better deals than others, but it still holds that a better bow is a bow that plays easier and these usually cost more, or will cost more when recognized by playability. It may not always be true that spending more gets a better bow, but the safer bet is that it will.

It is somewhat frustrating when someone starts bringing this price/quality issue up because it is a different issue. So is the bit about Da Vinci with a two dollar brush. If you are doing nothing but painting the bevels on a picture frame matt, a better brush works better and is easier to use. Give me a Windsor-Newton sable any day. Very similar to Jaco did it with a Jazz etc., etc. No question he would have been better off with a Smith, a Ritter, a Warwick, etc. ad infinitum. What constitutes a better bow is what Ken is trying to establish. In my experience, which is just no where close to Ken's (although I have been playing bass guitar for an awfully long time), I would have to say that I have to agree with him on all the points he has made in this thread, as well as what constitutes a better bow, and one worth paying more for. As a developing player, I should have skipped the fibreglass bow. It was a hazard. The cheapo brazilwood was a decent starter. There is no question that Ken's Loveri bows would have been much better. The custom Brunkalla is a significant upgrade (I have no idea where it stacks up against Ken's Loveris, a Lipkins, etc.) and the quality earmarks mentioned here by Ken have really helped me evaluate this bow I had on approval, particular the playability across all the hair, necessary pressure, etc. I'll never be an Edgar Meyer. So what. I play better with the better bow. I think most players will find the same.

When we talk about the bass/bow/player combination what we really mean is bass/bow/technique. The biggest improvement will be accomplished by upgrading the weakest link. In the beginning, it is obviously technique, later it is the quality of the bass, the bow, or both. Then it will shift back to technique. Then it will go back to bass or bow. Then back to technique.

A while back, it was difficult for me to understand why Ken was changing basses, exchanging bows, seemingly going all over the place with his gear. If one considers the above, it is a necessary exercise if he wants to get even better sounds from his playing. It is like sequentially distilled liquor. It just gets purer with each step.

I appreciate the discussions and all the opinions expressed, but one thing this thread would benefit from is those posting carefully considering the real relevance to the issue at hand and avoiding the more tangential debates.

Responding to the "sound of the stick" tangent: The tapping pitches of my better bow is lower than my lesser bows and it actually rings more. The wood is from different tree species, but both have a similar glassy kind of tap sound, more like a high pitched "click" than a "toong". It's such a high frequency I can't see how it would affect bass frequencies very much in any significant way. Resonance starts with the fundamental and goes up through the partials. The higher the fundamental, the higher the partials also. In the case of the tap tones of bows of any wood dense enough to make a bow, these tones are so high that only the highest upper register could even be theoretically affected, let alone noticeably affected.

This is a different "vibe" over the length of the stick that Trevor is talking about. I can see that when a bow starts sort of jumping on a certain note. It could be a big deal if the bow is too jumpy, but that is easily cured by slightly changing the tension on the hair. Of course the jump just moves to a different note. On a good bow, the jumping will not affect the sound of the note. The hair will be glued to the string and move smoothly along despite what looks like a really jumpy bow. I noticed this with bows right away and I check this on all the bows I have tried. On some note they will start jumping. I haven't tried a bow that didn't do this, but the jump note varies widely and so does the jump. Generally the higher you torque it, the less it jumps. It's due more to the frequencies of the hair than the bow tap tone.

[Ken Smith]

David, I just read your post. I lost count on how many subjects you were addressing but I do feel sleepy..:confused:

The Jumpy stuff and tapping etc. has me confused.

I have two nearly identical Sue Lipkins Bows made only a few months apart in 2006. I recently asked her why one is brighter sounding and the other darker and broader sounding. She said it was in the wood first off and by tapping it she can get an idea what the results will be. I am waiting on my first actual custom made Bow from her after buying 4 of them within the last 3 years. One was from Sue from her last competition effort and the other 3 form various players no longer using them. The 'Competition' is the best of the 4 Bows in my opinion. All of them are great but one of them stands out for my taste.

The one she is currently making for me is actually being documented along the process for both my viewing and her website (maybe) as she mentioned that she's never photographed all the steps before in making her Bows. This will be posted on my website providing all the photos are usable. After almost 3 weeks she has just completed my Frog. It is only the second Sartory Frog she has ever made, the first being for a genuine Sartory as a replacement.

Finding any kind or particular Bow that is good or great for a cheap price does not in itself constitute it being a cheap Bow. Bows have to be judged side by side in a fair market to just their worth. On the flip side, paying a lot of money for a Bow does not necessary mean it will rate along side with other Bows of a similar price.

The better you play, the easier it will be to judge a Bow or Bass when comparing some of the finer points within either the playability or construction.

When I started back playing again I Bought 3 Basses in about 4 years upgrading slightly each time. I did a similar thing with Bows. As I got my 'chops' back gradually I started yearning for a better Bass and Bow. I think that I am now able to tell what is best for me permanently as far as a Bass or Bow goes. Maybe in a few years what I have now will not be suitable for me or maybe I will better grow into one or more of my Basses and/or Bows as my playing improves in time.

[Richard Prowse]

I found a cheap German bow at school the week before last (it had a little paper sticker that said 'Korea' on it). It felt pretty nice and felt good on the battered old school bass. I though of Edgar Meyer and decided to take it home for the weekend... my personal bow is worth about $NZ2,000 and I've bowed violins since 1960 and basses since 1976 (with years off along the way). I carefully rosined up the bow and used it on my bass. I then used my own bow. I put the Korean bow away and took it back to school on Monday because my bow was a million times better. Everything Ken says in this thread is true (in my humble opinion). I would never want to take that Korean bow to a gig, yet I was happily using it to demonstrate the school bass to students a few days before (This bass is in serious need of repair - the strings are more like a high wire fence than something you're supposed to make touch the finger board!). Does a good workman blame his tools? No, but he doesn't choose a plastic hammer over a steel one. I'm no expert (Ken is, I think) but I've played for a few years now and can play most basses put in front of me. If I've got to play in public, please let it be on the best gear possible! Would Leonardo have chosen the cheapest paint brush because he liked its stroke?
Here's the answer in 'da Vinci code':
CARP!