Starting a DB Project

[Ruben E garcia]

In advance I have to thank you all for all the help that I’ve being getting from this here and there… I’m in the process of planning my first acoustic build, with limited resources and experience (Sound like a great combination), and ¾ DB, carved top and back, may be a hybrid… here is my initial development plan:

1-Buy a good book “So ... You Want To Build a Double Bass by Peter Chandler”

2-Get a workshop on making an acoustic guitar, lets say I do live in Atlanta Ga, don’t want to spend a fortune “Woodcraft” have a $600 workshop for that.

3-Get an DB beyond repair, I figured is somebody have a shop they may have a DB that is in un-reparable and get it for a good price (ANY ONE OUT THERE)

4. USE SPRUCE for the top and MAPLE for the back

5. I have no clue just yet

So what do you think about my super plan?

[Ruben E garcia]

Ruben, I just don't know where to start...I agree with number 4.

I totally
disagree with number 3---I speak for only me when I say that there is no bass that is "un-reparable" if most of the pieces are there and they have been kept dry.

Number 5---if you meant to say glue-it's too early for that, but use mostly hide glue-if you mean clue, then I would hold off on doing anything.

Number 2- are you wanting to make a bass or a guitar? If you want to make a bass, any learning experience will help. To get to the point where you are ready to make a double bass, you will , most likely, have to spend a small fortune in time and money.

Number 1- books can be helpful, but a mentor would be good too.

When I think of what it takes to go from nothing to building a double bass, I sorta feel like I'm having the early signs of a stroke. I think most of us start out changing our own bridge and develope a passion for working on instruments. I'll just share my journey since I am close to the point of making my first bass. I began by changing my strings, bridge, etc over 20 years ago. Then if one of my double basses needed something I would find a book and fix it myself.

About 5 years ago, I got a bass from a luthier who had restored many basses and cellos. He became my mentor in repair and restoration. With what he taught me, the use of several books, and with the help of anyone who would answer my questions, I restored around 15 instruments in the last five years and have set-up and repaired scores of basses as part of my business. I would recommend that you start with a restoration, one that is not too complicated so it won't discourage you.

In the restoration process you will learn about the parts of a bass, the tools needed,etc. After you successfully complete the restoration, then maybe do another one. Eventually, you will work up to trying your hand at making one. I think that my experience is somewhat like most who end up making basses. For me, it has been a timely, and expensive venture, but I love it.

I hope that you make the right decisions along the way. You are starting out correctly by asking a lot of questions and this forum will, I believe, help you to stay on a safe course.

Fair winds and following Seas.

So my plan stink hum? :)

That's a wise advise, I really haven’t tried to find out a mentor... if u were a little closer I will stop by to bug u a little :), but I can give u a call for advise, I really can use some.
On the TB forum one guy suggest a similar approach, buy a beat up ply DB, made a carve top and replace it… that could be a good start, I will have the chance to see first hand how is build, I will do the setup… it may take me closer to a build, I may actually improve the instrument

[Ruben E garcia]

[quote=Ruben E garcia;20552]So my plan stink hum? :)

ha! stink-that's the word I was looking for:). Again, Ruben, , I would start out with something not too complicated to restore- It will be better to go from kinda simple to the more complicated. I would get a bass that you would ,at least, have to remove and replace the top. If it needs a neck repair, too, then you are off and running.

My view is that luthiery is an art. We are working with something that will do more than a piece of furniture will do. It will produce music, hopefully, and the purpose of music is to touch the heart. A well made cabinet or bed-frame will not do this, unless there is some pathology present. An art is a skill that you develope by experience, study and observation. Since we are now in the information age, the process is made easier. One thing I have learned is that if you want to do something good, there will always be others who will help you accomplish it.

So, my suggestion is to find a restorable that you will have to do major repairs to but not a complete massive makeover. Once you get the bass, you could put a picture of it on this forum and let the questions begin- your first question could be-where do I start? We will tell you what to do and what tools you will need. For right now, you need to make sure that you have a space and a table to do the work-Don't use the dining room table like I did my first year. The women folk, although quietly supportive, really don't like that. If you have a shop-great-you can make a bass operating table with a 4 by 8 3/4 plywood and saw-horses and then make a cradle to elivate the bass for clamping, etc. You will need about 50 clamps for the top- you can make these yourself and save a lot of money.

This is my opinion and experience. Hopefully others will share theirs.

Good luck Ruben!

I do have a small workshop, I’m a hobbies, so nothing too fancy and I don’t have all the tools, I do have, Stanley chisels (I want better ones), Drill press, 14” bank saw, no table saw but circular saw, a bunch of saws, a bunch of claps (I know the claps that u are saying I will make 50), bench, router, orbital sander, bench planer 5”, few useless gouges that I got from HD, craftsman cordless drill,… I’m thinking on really getting an Jet 10” joint/planner combo only $300, and a bell sander.

[Ruben E garcia]

Ruben, to be totally honest with you, there is something missing in all this. Can't put my finger on it- do you play the double bass, or any type of violin? I am sure that there are some who might build an airplane, and never fly it, but usally they will know how to fly it-I say- usually.

If you don't play the instrument that you have a passion to build, I would recommend that we back up about a year of double bass lessons. Make sense?

I don't want to superimpose my or anyone's experience onto you, but there is something not connecting in all this. I tried to send you a PM but you have an unlisted one(or whatever)--- this makes it hard to point out these personal impressions that I have and I don't want to offend you, but rather would like to help you.

No Men I don’t take any advise as bad or get offended, u are right, I never owned an DB, and this is part of the problem, yes I do agree I need to buy one, and if I did learn something from talking to you guys… is that I need one… I’m going to be looking for a DB to restore and learn how to play … by the way u can email me to rg3570@att.com (rg3570@att.com)

On the other hand I need to start from somewhere and that place is here, asking the pros opinions

[Ruben E garcia]

Hey there… its being so long since we havent spoke… what about modifing this Canotto Bass to 41", that's looks like a good staring point
http://www.liutaiomottola.com/instruments/canotto.htm (http://www.liutaiomottola.com/instruments/canotto.htm)

[Thomas Erickson]

I would suggest forgetting about all those machines for a while; maybe get a few decent quality hand tools and just focus on learning to use and sharpen them. Sharpening is an art all on its own, and without sharp tools nothing gets done...

maybe start with a plywood bass to restore.

I dunno Wayne, I tend to think plywood is a whole other can of worms (one that I don't want to deal with, generally); there are lots of cheap broken basses out there these days that are still made from solid wood and could make a good project...

[Ruben E garcia]

I would suggest forgetting about all those machines for a while; maybe get a few decent quality hand tools and just focus on learning to use and sharpen them. Sharpening is an art all on its own, and without sharp tools nothing gets done...



I dunno Wayne, I tend to think plywood is a whole other can of worms (one that I don't want to deal with, generally); there are lots of cheap broken basses out there these days that are still made from solid wood and could make a good project...
I do agree, but jointing and planing wood its very hard by hand. Do u guys do it by hand?

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Violin family instruments are traditionally made completely with hand tools. You cannot make a perfect joint directly from a machine; and if you plan to make instruments using hide glue, and that will last for centuries, joints must be perfect. I'm in total agreement with Thomas that you don't need more machinery, but rather hand tools and the skills to sharpen and utilize them. Yes, we luthiers have power tools, but they are only used to save time and sweat, not to do the important work. I hope this is helpful.

[Thomas Erickson]

Yes of course, it is always raining here. Tis why we all wear wool socks with sandals! ;)

[Ruben E garcia]

are we still trying to guide Ruben with his last inquiry about changing the scale length of a bass from 34 to 41?

what Thomas and Arnold say is true, except the part about carved over Ply to start with,IMO but I don't make the connection with Ruben wanting to stretch the neck of a bass.

When I started restoring basses I had a few carved and one plywood. My mentor suggested that I start with the plywood because of the risk involved to do damage; it would be better to damage a cheap plywood rather that a carved that would have the potential of being worth 3 times as much as the ply. It made sense to me and I think that it was very advice. So, I pass it on to Ruben. I realize that not everyone has the same experience.

Thomas-- what machines are you talking about?---is it raining out there?

Ok I got it bad idea....!!! but my idea was to take the construction method of the Canotto (Very simple), and redesign it to an 41" Upright... meaning going back to Auto cad and start from scratch…then when I done with the design I could get it back to you guys for debate… but trust me I am also looking for a upright to restore I haven’t be able to find something to work on, I have make a couple inquires about some DB’s to repair… but unfortunate, I am very limit on what I can buy

[Ruben E garcia]

May be something like this:

http://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/msg/2025308543.html

[Matthew Tucker]

Well Ruben that one looks very OK to me as a project restoration.

But yes you could make a cannotto/savart design and you don't need autocad to do it. Just scale it up by hand! It would be easier to build than a conventional DB.

However, I suspect that when you have finished, you will regret not having spent more time and money on making a real DB!

[Thomas Erickson]

THat doesn't even look like it needs much restoration, just a little work to put it together... maybe a nice project!

[Thomas Erickson]

Oh, and if you're like me, trying to put basses into something like autoCAD is about the biggest waste of time ever! But, I'm no engineer either; I have a scientific calculator but I barely know how to use it... :rolleyes: It is interesting, however, to actually measure as many instruments as you can. I always mean to write them down and don't, but still, you get some insights into why things work the way they do that you might otherwise overlook.

Actually, that brings me to another comment - make a point of trying to draw and carve every day - even if it's just sketches and whittling it will help develop your eye, as well as coordination, muscles, sense of proportions, understanding of wood, everything. Plus it forces you to sharpen your tools a lot.

Kind of like how just playing basses and listening to music all the time will make you a better musician, even at times when you're not practicing for hours on end every day.

[Ruben E garcia]

U guys know anything about this particular DB?

from the picture I cant tell if is a ply or carved top

http://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/msg/2025308543.html

[Thomas Erickson]

I'd say go have a look at it, if close by... Can't tell from the photos on the ad if it is solid or laminated.

[Ruben E garcia]

I'd say go have a look at it, if close by... Can't tell from the photos on the ad if it is solid or laminated.

I sent an email to the seller asking about the top...
but about the maker: Curt Wunderlich Detroit. Made in Czechosovakia.. does it ring a bell?

[Ruben E garcia]

Well Ruben that one looks very OK to me as a project restoration.

But yes you could make a cannotto/savart design and you don't need autocad to do it. Just scale it up by hand! It would be easier to build than a conventional DB.

However, I suspect that when you have finished, you will regret not having spent more time and money on making a real DB!

That’s what I was thinking too… but I was trying to find a project more in line with my skills.
For now it makes more sense to restore, to play, own a DB and then try to build one…
PS… how is the cornerless Castelvecchio doing???, I love the looks of that DB… seems a little less complicated to make that an traditional DB?
Not that I’m trying to make one… at least not yet J
I got really inspired by your project

[Matthew Tucker]

It's going just fine. My best sounding bass. But in fact it was a little harder to make, as the rib garland is not as rigid as a "normal" bass with corners.

[Ruben E garcia]

It's going just fine. My best sounding bass. But in fact it was a little harder to make, as the rib garland is not as rigid as a "normal" bass with corners.
That DB is beautifull congrats....
I other news I'm inquiring more info about the Craig list bass, I am waiting for them to answer, seems like a nice one

[Ruben E garcia]

Meet my project... I got the craiglist bass, the guy who sold it, was a very nice guy... he thinks is a pre-WWII bass... looks old to me... but what I know... is top carve... spruce I assume... back carve... maple I think... got some ebony trin, in one side in the other side.... wood filler, got some cracks on the ribs and there is a patch on one rib also... has a crack at the bottom front, looks like someone made some repairs on it... i dont see any repairs inside the bass...
here are some pictures...PS the guy also gave me the sound post... and a nice ebony tailpiece

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_3691.jpg

You can see the cracks at the bottom front

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_3688.jpg
Ebony end Pin :)
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_3685.jpg

the back has a litle opening too

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_3684.jpg


I dont know if you can see there is a crack on this rip

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_3683.jpg

a patch

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_3682.jpg

the machines are very smooth

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_3679.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_3678.jpg

[Ruben E garcia]

the neck looks fine, some figured wood, maple right???

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_3686.jpg

The ebony trim :)

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_3687.jpg

the front

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_3675.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_3677.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_3676.jpg

the back

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_3681.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_3680.jpg

Now the question is... did i do good? any comments???

Where do i start... I want to make the bass playable... I am more concern about the playability of the bass than the looks... I think the distress look with a litle TLC is better than a new looking bass.. I guess I dont want to make unesesary repairs, that at the end decrement the quality of this instrument.... I LOVE IT....

one more thing I guess I need a book that taugh me how to repair DB's... what u guys recomend?

[Arnold Schnitzer]

In my opinion you need to get (and read) the Violin Repair book by Hans Weisshar. It is considered the "bible" for string instrument repair, and will not teach you bad habits. My thanks to Jeff Bollbach for turning me on to this great resource many years ago.

[Ruben E garcia]

I think you did really good if it's carved. Good pictures. In some places it looks carved and in others I think that I see more than one layer.

One has to be impressed, inspired and even encouraged by your obvious passion and persistance.

There are a couple of things that stand out to me that lead me to believe that it had a pretty good maker and that it wasn't the cheapest model made in its day. The purfling is impressive if its inlayed and not painted on later. And, my experience has been that if you see a neck that has grain as the neck of your bass does, that the maker thought the bass worthy of a more expensive neck.

I wonder, since the neck looks long to me, if the scale length is a 43.5 inches.

You're on your way Ruben. Proud of you and happy for you:)!

Thank you Wayne I am following your advice, and every one good advise on this forum for pointing me in the right direction.
Now I need a good book about the subject…
Now the front is carve for sure and the back I think it have to be carve too (In my opinion), why because the curve, and the joint in the middle, you can also see in the label picture the little squares running thru all the back plate.

Well the dude say it was 41” not too sure I will measure and I’ll let you know

[Eric Hochberg]

Ruben, when a master luthier like Arnold Schnitzer suggests something, you really need to take it seriously and thank him for taking the time to help you. If you're planning on being a luthier that does fine work, you are probably going to have to invest some money in your education. Find the book used if you can. Why don't you look into apprenticing with someone?

I only jump in here because I know the futile feeling of trying to help people on forums and then either being rebuffed or ignored. Good luck with your project.

[Ruben E garcia]

Ruben, when a master luthier like Arnold Schnitzer suggests something, you really need to take it seriously and thank him for taking the time to help you. If you're planning on being a luthier that does fine work, you are probably going to have to invest some money in your education. Find the book used if you can. Why don't you look into apprenticing with someone?

I only jump in here because I know the futile feeling of trying to help people on forums and then either being rebuffed or ignored. Good luck with your project.

Thank you for pointing that… I very humbly apologize if I came across like dismissing anybody advise… I do have an deep admiration for one an every one of you guys… and that’s why I am here seeking for your advise…I wish I could have that book, trust me I was looking for it… I am checking up all that you guys suggest, and I going to see and local luthier as soon as possible too…

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Ruben, have no fear, no feelings were hurt. If you are in the Atlanta area, you could try and look up Emory Clements, a fine bassist and equally talented luthier. And seriously, start your search for a copy of the Weishaar book, even if you have to borrow one (and run to the copy center). Naah, I didn't mean that.

[Thomas Erickson]

Nice photos - looks like a good project to me! Keep us posted! :)

[Ruben E garcia]

Ruben, have no fear, no feelings were hurt. If you are in the Atlanta area, you could try and look up Emory Clements, a fine bassist and equally talented luthier. And seriously, start your search for a copy of the Weishaar book, even if you have to borrow one (and run to the copy center). Naah, I didn't mean that.

I am glad… Thank you Arnold, Eric is right, the simple fact that u are tacking the time to offer your advise could humble anyone… when I saw ur work… I was totally speechless for a while… seriously it has to be a collection of the most beautiful DB's that I ever seem… I will do my best to own that book. Mean while I have to get my hands on every book, video or internet information that I can get. And also invest time on mastering my skills.. I am feeling like I need to take this DB to an Luthier, I will call Emory to see if he can see me… I don’t know where to start, I think this DB is close to be playable, after gluing the FB… I don’t really know where to start or what to do next.. I need the kind of experience that u cant learn by reading or browsing.. Again thank you :)

Update:
I sent an email to Mr. Emory, lets see if he can see me :)

[Ruben E garcia]

Nice photos - looks like a good project to me! Keep us posted! :)

Thank you, well I checked the top yesterday with a mirror like Wayne suggest and found that it being repair... so I think so far that this bass could be put together after gluing the FB, nut and bridge...but first I am planning on taking this baby to an qualify luthier, so he can tell me what’s need to be done, I am also trying to find out if the back is carve as well…

[Ruben E garcia]

by the way how old u guys think this bass is?
is anyone have an idea of the back is carve, just by looking at it?

[Matthew Tucker]

if the back has a centre joint visible from inside and outside, and if the grain pattern on the outside matches - more or less - the pattern of grain on the inside, and if the edges where damaged are not chipped like plywood, its carved.

Looks carved from where I sit.

[Thomas Erickson]

by the way how old u guys think this bass is?
is anyone have an idea of the back is carve, just by looking at it?

I don't see anything that indicates a laminated back. I say it's all solid.

As for age - my guess would be something like 1940's... but I'm not really qualified to say.

On second thought, maybe a little later. heh.

[Brian Gencarelli]

I second the visit to Emory! Definitely worth it, if not just to play his basses. (The ones he made...)

He is a super nice guy and will hopefully mentor you.

BG

[Ruben E garcia]

if the back has a centre joint visible from inside and outside, and if the grain pattern on the outside matches - more or less - the pattern of grain on the inside, and if the edges where damaged are not chipped like plywood, its carved.

Looks carved from where I sit.


I see what u are saying, I will take a closer look, ones I get home tonight….I think its carve :) on the back

[Ruben E garcia]

I second the visit to Emory! Definitely worth it, if not just to play his basses. (The ones he made...)

He is a super nice guy and will hopefully mentor you.

BG


I sent him an email yesterday, hopefully he will be able to see me…. Wow Mentor! that would be nice J

[Ruben E garcia]

I have spoken with 3 luthiers so far and the estimates for the repairs range from $4500 to $1200,just the fingerboard goes from $1000, to $600, and $350... some of then don’t want to do it, they said its too much work :)... last night one told me that the back opening in the back need to be fix of the bass can break, the rip crack is not a big deal, they said don’t mess too much with the cosmetic appearance that bass players don’t care for that J, I think the top repair its ok (I wish I could do something about the top crack appearance)
. I got one more to go, and I trying to find out if I should open the back or the Front top first

[Ruben E garcia]

U guys left me all by my self :), that's ok... Update!!! I did get some advise from one luthier, I am going to be opening the front to repair the bottom and the back opening, he explained how to…(He recomend not to open never the back because the bass will lost it shape!!!) I am waiting for my DB repair book to arrive, and he also showed me an used ebony fingerboard for $200, nice figure but it worries me a little knot in the back and a little wave in the front, I made a sketch for u guys to see it, by the way if you want to recommend somebody to buy a fingerboard from or you have one send me a PM, I am not at the point where I need one but I would like to start studying the case

1925

[Thomas Erickson]

U guys left me all by my self :), that's ok... Update!!! I did get some advise from one luthier, I am going to be opening the front to repair the bottom and the back opening, he explained how to…(He recomend not to open never the back because the bass will lost it shape!!!) I am waiting for my DB repair book to arrive, and he also showed me an used ebony fingerboard for $200, nice figure but it worries me a little knot in the back and a little wave in the front, I made a sketch for u guys to see it, by the way if you want to recommend somebody to buy a fingerboard from or you have one send me a PM, I am not at the point where I need one but I would like to start studying the case

1925

You have long way to go 'til you need a fingerboard! Worry about the rest of the bass first!

[Ruben E garcia]

I posted this on TB… this is what I did this weekend:


http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_3708.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_3707.jpg

The Bottom Block :

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_3709.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_3710.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_3711.jpg


The Front repair:

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_3718.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_3717.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_3721.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_3719.jpg

[Ruben E garcia]

And the Crack:

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_3715.jpg

The patch:

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_3714.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_3709.jpg

[Ruben E garcia]

You have long way to go 'til you need a fingerboard! Worry about the rest of the bass first!

hi Thomas, I got you... by the way what u think about the repairs?

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Ruben, with all due respect, next time you remove a bass top please be more patient, and get some more advice about doing so less destructively.

[Thomas Erickson]

hi Thomas, I got you... by the way what u think about the repairs?

I think you stand to learn a lot before this bass is closed up - no offense, it is a good project and I applaud your nerve - keep us posted but definitely take your time and ask questions if things don't seem right.

[Ruben E garcia]

Ruben, with all due respect, next time you remove a bass top please be more patient, and get some more advice about doing so less destructively.

Next time I will be more careful, I though it was going well but at the end I realize that the top was damaged, fortunately I got most to the top pieces back, and i do think that the bottom block was glue using yellow glue, now I need to work extra to fix the damage that I made :(.
I'm thinking now that I could used some heat or weaken the glue a little more....

[Ruben E garcia]

So I got the book, I just got it yesterday.... I am going to be doing my home work, I will do as much research as I can... I am going to work in the top first (no rush or anything)... now base on the information on the pictures, what in your professional opinions need to be done on the top plate... any advise???

[Steve Alcott]

Have a look at Matthew Tucker's French Bass restoration thread-that's what good repair looks like. Notice the lack of glue globs, the obsessive neatness of the cleat placement and trimming, etc. His post is a textbook on how to do it right, as is the "restoration" section on his website.

[Ken Smith]

I have several restoration photos on my website of some famous instruments in restoration. Not a blow by blow but a gook look inside some very expensive basses, $50-$150k grade.

Matthew's work looks very nice but the more you see, the more you learn from. These two links here are master grade basses restored by one of the best that does work for all of the major New York Orchestras and 100k basses are common in this shop daily.

One (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/prescott/prescott-preview.html), and Two (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/gilkes/b4.htm).

I have 100s of restoration photos in my files from other master grade basses of mine and other basses worked on as well but I generally keep them private as they would scare most players. Like seeing a body opened up and then a year later the guy jogging. Once when having a root c**** and fitting at the dentist I had to take a bathroom break as this was going for hours. The dentist said "DON'T look in the Mirror!!" After washing my hands I looked up..:eek::eek::eek: .. Now I knew why he said that..

Post restoration photos are mush prettier to look at unless your are an experienced Emergency room attendee..;)

[Ruben E garcia]

Have a look at Matthew Tucker's French Bass restoration thread-that's what good repair looks like. Notice the lack of glue globs, the obsessive neatness of the cleat placement and trimming, etc. His post is a textbook on how to do it right, as is the "restoration" section on his website.
I am watching it like a hawk

[Ruben E garcia]

I have several restoration photos on my website of some famous instruments in restoration. Not a blow by blow but a gook look inside some very expensive basses, $50-$150k grade.

Matthew's work looks very nice but the more you see, the more you learn from. These two links here are master grade basses restored by one of the best that does work for all of the major New York Orchestras and 100k basses are common in this shop daily.

One (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/prescott/prescott-preview.html), and Two (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/gilkes/b4.htm).

I have 100s of restoration photos in my files from other master grade basses of mine and other basses worked on as well but I generally keep them private as they would scare most players. Like seeing a body opened up and then a year later the guy jogging. Once when having a root c**** and fitting at the dentist I had to take a bathroom break as this was going for hours. The dentist said "DON'T look in the Mirror!!" After washing my hands I looked up..:eek::eek::eek: .. Now I knew why he said that..

Post restoration photos are mush prettier to look at unless your are an experienced Emergency room attendee..;)

Thank you Ken, So mine have to look like those after I done with it ?

PS I have a good Idea of what to do by now, I am planning on practicing the procedure before I get to that bass

[Ken Smith]

Thank you Ken, So mine have to look like those after I done with it ?

PS I have a good Idea of what to do by now, I am planning on practicing the procedure before I get to that bass

If you can make your work as good and neat as that, you are doing the best possible. Sloppy work hurts the value and may need to be re-done as well, sooner than later.

[Ruben E garcia]

So I didnt have super long clamps that can reach deep into the top, so
I used Rare earth magnets.... :) I did work perfectly
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_4402.jpg


All the cleats, square shape at 45% Grain angle

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_4404.jpg


Chisel down (super sharp chisels :) ), Scraped and Sanded....

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_4406.jpg

Final Result... They look good to me... I dont know about you guys

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_4407.jpg



http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_4408-1.jpg



Couple notes....
I spoke to one of the local luthiers and he said that the old crack by the sound post looks sound... he recommended to ad a cleat in the north section of the crack and not to do a inlay patch... at least for now....
as for the lost of wood on the edges he suggest that an easy way to fix it is to use Wood epoxy.... I dont know anything about wood epoxy, sound scare sense ones the epoxy sets, I dont think I will be able to get it out in the case of a mistake.... could I use Hide glue for it, hummm...... i dont know if Hide G will build up or if it may react when I glue the top back????? :confused:... it need to study the case in deep

[Ken Smith]

So I didnt have super long clamps that can reach deep into the top, so
I used Rare earth magnets.... :) I did work perfectly
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_4402.jpg


All the cleats, square shape at 45% Grain angle

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_4404.jpg


Chisel down (super sharp chisels :) ), Scraped and Sanded....

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_4406.jpg

Final Result... They look good to me... I dont know about you guys

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_4407.jpg



http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_4408-1.jpg



Couple notes....
I spoke to one of the local luthiers and he said that the old crack by the sound post looks sound... he recommended to ad a cleat in the north section of the crack and not to do a inlay patch... at least for now....
as for the lost of wood on the edges he suggest that an easy way to fix it is to use Wood epoxy.... I dont know anything about wood epoxy, sound scare sense ones the epoxy sets, I dont think I will be able to get it out in the case of a mistake.... could I use Hide glue for it, hummm...... i dont know if Hide G will build up or if it may react when I glue the top back????? :confused:... it need to study the case in deep

Step AWAY from that Luthier before he teaches you how to Ruin this bass.:mad:

It needs a sound post patch and the edges at least repaired with wood if not a full around half edging. I don't know who this guy is but it sounds like he can kill a good bass easily with his ideas..

NEVER Epoxy.:mad:

Never open up a bass and do half the work to 'see' it it holds. Do the proper sound post patch as it does need it.

[Ruben E garcia]

Step AWAY from that Luthier before he teaches you how to Ruin this bass.:mad:

It needs a sound post patch and the edges at least repaired with wood if not a full around half edging. I don't know who this guy is but it sounds like he can kill a good bass easily with his ideas..

NEVER Epoxy.:mad:

Never open up a bass and do half the work to 'see' it it holds. Do the proper sound post patch as it does need it.


Ok Ken I see... I undestand....
1) No epoxy... I wasnt really sure about that at all... but I wanted some feedback from you...
2) Now It needs a sound post patch... I will do it, I will take your advise and do one... now so I get the whole point of your comment... when I face with an sound post crack.. it needs a patch even is the crack is not open... so I think the guy who performed the last repair... that it looks very good by the way... should have done a sound post patch before closing this bass? may the the customer didnt want to pay for that repair.. I being told that is $1000 for a patch... Jesus that a little too much for that
I can see why someone would say no to that :)....
well like a said that's for your advise sound post patch is....

[Ruben E garcia]

Hi Ruben, I applaud your efforts. Ken makes some very good points.

I often think of my bass fishing mentor who said to me "if you want to become good at the sport of bass-fishing and really enjoy it, then you have to get the right equipment"

One thing that I have learned listening to Ken, Arnold, and all those who have been successful in luthiery is that you have to have the right tools.

As I say, I commend you for your efforts. I have not been doing luthiery work all that many years, but I am probably one of the oldest OFs on this forum and know aspiration and passion when I see it. I want to encourage you to get the tools that you need that will help you do the work that will better match your desire to do good work.

As creative as the magnets are, they have not done the job, IMO. You can see in the first pictures that the cleats don't fit the surface of the bass top as they should.

I recommend that you stop everything, remove the cleats, get the right clamps and start all over. And, I recommend, as I did once before, that you seek help before you attempt anything. When you tell us what you are going to do, then we can tell you what tools you will need and will tell you how to do it. You have also received books that show you how to do repairs and the tools needed.

I have to be perfectly honest with you Ruben. You have, at your request, the help that you need. However, if there is one common error in your approach to luthiery that has once again surfaced, you are not paying enough attention to the guidance given you.

Yes, given what you have used to accomplish the cleating, they do look sorta good, but you can do better work and cleaner work. So, stop everything, get the right tools and step by step instruction and do it right- you'll be glad that you did.

The clamps that you need are expensive, but you can make some for just a few dollars.

Before you install the soundpost patch, it will be important that you get all the cracks repaired correctly. Also, if you plan to replace the bassbar, the top needs to be in good shape first to include a proper reshaping in most cases.

Ruben, what you are attempting to do here is work on an instrument that is usually done by an experienced bass luthier.
This is not to say that you can't do it, but an experienced bass luthier is going to have the tools and equipment before he/she will attempt this kind of work. Many of us have had to learn this the hard way. The hard way is what you are doing now and this is the reason I am asking you to stop everything, get the right tools and equipment and begin again.

An example for what I am trying to say- Why is it that good bass luthiers can repair a crack to where you can't see it? They get the result because they have the right tools and equipment. They, also, have listened to their mentor's instructions on how to do the repair correctly.

Ruben, Hope this helps. Good luck.

wayne


wholmesbassviol@yahoo.com
www.holmesbassviol.com (http://www.holmesbassviol.com)


Thank you Wayne I'll look into it... :(

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Consider also that lining up straight-edged cleats along a grain line can create a new fault line, resulting in a crack the next time the instrument is under excessive stress. Most current luthiers use diamond-shaped cleats because there is less strength at the grain line. Also, I believe yours are too far apart. Good on you for taking the criticism with an open mind and heart.

[Ruben E garcia]

Consider also that lining up straight-edged cleats along a grain line can create a new fault line, resulting in a crack the next time the instrument is under excessive stress. Most current luthiers use diamond-shaped cleats because there is less strength at the grain line. Also, I believe yours are too far apart. Good on you for taking the criticism with an open mind and heart.
I have no idea that This particular type a cleats can cause later on some problems.... I am using Chuck book and he present few options and I just when for this one, that it happens to be his style... my cleats are spacing about tree inches apart but there is one 3 and 3/4, he also said that Bill merchant think that 2" and even 3" spacing is over kill. that cleats should be 4 to 6 inches apart.... now if I may ask you. what would be the optimum space between cleats.... lets say that I do Diamond cleats of 5/8" x 1"...

Thank for looking out after me... its hard but it need to be done the right way... and its a good experience... I just need to take a deep breath and take off all my beautiful cleats :(

[Ken Smith]

I have no idea that This particular type a cleats can cause later on some problems.... I am using Chuck book and he present few options and I just when for this one, that it happens to be his style... my cleats are spacing about tree inches apart but there is one 3 and 3/4, he also said that Bill merchant think that 2" and even 3" spacing is over kill. that cleats should be 4 to 6 inches apart.... now if I may ask you. what would be the optimum space between cleats.... lets say that I do Diamond cleats of 5/8" x 1"...

Thank for looking out after me... its hard but it need to be done the right way... and its a good experience... I just need to take a deep breath and take off all my beautiful cleats :(

Chuck's book is a book, not THE Bible on repairs. I do not agree with everything he says in that book about repairs and I do not want any of my basses repaired in that way. Just because it's written doesn't make it true! Follow what Arnold tells you, and for very good reasons.

I have seen more basses inside and out than most people and have seen along with that many styles of repair and modification. Fit all patches and pieces 100% dry before gluing and clamping them in. For me, I would rip out everything you have done and start over fresh and do it correctly. Just don't make things worse by damaging the bass while removing your recent work. Like Wayne said, you need the tools in hand before you start. In my opinion, this was a huge undertaking as your first project in bass repair. Did I say Undertaking? Sounds similar to Undertaker, the one who buries the dead. Don't kill your bass!

When I buy basses or take them in trade, one of the things I ask is who did the previous repairs on the bass. Depending on who, it might cost double or triple to re-repair everything or I might just refuse to deal with a particular bass if I feel it's too far gone. I don't always see everything in advance but I sure try to. Do not become one of the repair people that makes it on the 'blacklist' of luthiers and basses worker on by to avoid. We have enough of them already. Most of them in my book. Like the guy who advised you to use wood epoxy? Geeze.. Talk to the young luthier Jed Kriegel who just spent a year picking junk glue like this out of an old bass which became one of the major parts of the restoration. It shouldn't have as that glue does not belong within a mile of any bass. Have fun..;)

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Reasons why I believe diamond cleats are superior:

1) Grain crosses at a 30-40 degree angle, rather than 90 degrees, therefore less tendency to come loose from seasonal wood movement.

2) Much longer reinforcement per cleat; less cleats required.

3) Less stiffening, due to the shape and the way the edges are tapered.

4) Looks really pretty.

Of course square cleats have been used for centuries (as have diamonds), and they work ok. I just personally think diamonds are better, especially if the owner is female. (Private joke for Wayne)

[Ken Smith]

Reasons why I believe diamond cleats are superior:

1) Grain crosses at a 30-40 degree angle, rather than 90 degrees, therefore less tendency to come loose from seasonal wood movement.

2) Much longer reinforcement per cleat; less cleats required.

3) Less stiffening, due to the shape and the way the edges are tapered.

4) Looks really pretty.

Of course square cleats have been used for centuries (as have diamonds), and they work ok. I just personally think diamonds are better, especially if the owner is female. (Private joke for Wayne)

Diamonds are Forever..!;)

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Nope. Try again...

[Adrian Levi]

is there a reason why linen pieces are not used solely for cleating . I've seen firsthand how a misplaced (in perfect line with the grain) and much too long piece of linen can split a top up due to its shrinkage after gluing,meaning that its not weak stuff ?

I have always wondered about the diamond shape verses the square shaped cleats. That is until I heard about a test that was done by some Austrian college students using two identical tops. On one top two rolls of diamond shaped cleats where glued and the other had larger and thinner square shaped cleats. Adding vibration to the two in equal amounts, the square cleated top continued to vibrate 4 to 6 seconds longer than the diamond one consistantly over several experiments. Fine wood dust was spread around the edges of each top and again vibration was applied to the tops. The thin square cleated ones produced a more even and smoother and a bit faster movement of the dust when ****yzed. I would give serious consideration to the thinner and larger square cleats- just thought I would share that for what it's worth.

[Ruben E garcia]

Chuck's book is a book, not THE Bible on repairs. I do not agree with everything he says in that book about repairs and I do not want any of my basses repaired in that way. Just because it's written doesn't make it true! Follow what Arnold tells you, and for very good reasons.

I have seen more basses inside and out than most people and have seen along with that many styles of repair and modification. Fit all patches and pieces 100% dry before gluing and clamping them in. For me, I would rip out everything you have done and start over fresh and do it correctly. Just don't make things worse by damaging the bass while removing your recent work. Like Wayne said, you need the tools in hand before you start. In my opinion, this was a huge undertaking as your first project in bass repair. Did I say Undertaking? Sounds similar to Undertaker, the one who buries the dead. Don't kill your bass!

When I buy basses or take them in trade, one of the things I ask is who did the previous repairs on the bass. Depending on who, it might cost double or triple to re-repair everything or I might just refuse to deal with a particular bass if I feel it's too far gone. I don't always see everything in advance but I sure try to. Do not become one of the repair people that makes it on the 'blacklist' of luthiers and basses worker on by to avoid. We have enough of them already. Most of them in my book. Like the guy who advised you to use wood epoxy? Geeze.. Talk to the young luthier Jed Kriegel who just spent a year picking junk glue like this out of an old bass which became one of the major parts of the restoration. It shouldn't have as that glue does not belong within a mile of any bass. Have fun..;)


I don't want to be on anybody's Blacklist... I but I dough that my bass end up in your shop ever :D

[Ruben E garcia]

Reasons why I believe diamond cleats are superior:

1) Grain crosses at a 30-40 degree angle, rather than 90 degrees, therefore less tendency to come loose from seasonal wood movement.

2) Much longer reinforcement per cleat; less cleats required.

3) Less stiffening, due to the shape and the way the edges are tapered.

4) Looks really pretty.

Of course square cleats have been used for centuries (as have diamonds), and they work ok. I just personally think diamonds are better, especially if the owner is female. (Private joke for Wayne)

Good point Arnold, I'm going to be replacing the squares cleats for diamond C, any Cleats sizes and spacing in particular work better than others??? :confused:

[Ruben E garcia]

is there a reason why linen pieces are not used solely for cleating . I've seen firsthand how a misplaced (in perfect line with the grain) and much too long piece of linen can split a top up due to its shrinkage after gluing,meaning that its not weak stuff ?

I have always wondered about the diamond shape verses the square shaped cleats. That is until I heard about a test that was done by some Austrian college students using two identical tops. On one top two rolls of diamond shaped cleats where glued and the other had larger and thinner square shaped cleats. Adding vibration to the two in equal amounts, the square cleated top continued to vibrate 4 to 6 seconds longer than the diamond one consistantly over several experiments. Fine wood dust was spread around the edges of each top and again vibration was applied to the tops. The thin square cleated ones produced a more even and smoother and a bit faster movement of the dust when ****yzed. I would give serious consideration to the thinner and larger square cleats- just thought I would share that for what it's worth.

ohhh well.... now it may be better to use square cleats Lol... I think I will have a drink before we get to the bottom of this issue :)

[Ruben E garcia]

Hi Ruben, I applaud your efforts. Ken makes some very good points.

I often think of my bass fishing mentor who said to me "if you want to become good at the sport of bass-fishing and really enjoy it, then you have to get the right equipment"

One thing that I have learned listening to Ken, Arnold, and all those who have been successful in luthiery is that you have to have the right tools.

As I say, I commend you for your efforts. I have not been doing luthiery work all that many years, but I am probably one of the oldest OFs on this forum and know aspiration and passion when I see it. I want to encourage you to get the tools that you need that will help you do the work that will better match your desire to do good work.

As creative as the magnets are, they have not done the job, IMO. You can see in the first pictures that the cleats don't fit the surface of the bass top as they should.

I recommend that you stop everything, remove the cleats, get the right clamps and start all over. And, I recommend, as I did once before, that you seek help before you attempt anything. When you tell us what you are going to do, then we can tell you what tools you will need and will tell you how to do it. You have also received books that show you how to do repairs and the tools needed.

I have to be perfectly honest with you Ruben. You have, at your request, the help that you need. However, if there is one common error in your approach to luthiery that has once again surfaced, you are not paying enough attention to the guidance given you.

Yes, given what you have used to accomplish the cleating, they do look sorta good, but you can do better work and cleaner work. So, stop everything, get the right tools and step by step instruction and do it right- you'll be glad that you did.

The clamps that you need are expensive, but you can make some for just a few dollars.

Before you install the soundpost patch, it will be important that you get all the cracks repaired correctly. Also, if you plan to replace the bassbar, the top needs to be in good shape first to include a proper reshaping in most cases.

Ruben, what you are attempting to do here is work on an instrument that is usually done by an experienced bass luthier.
This is not to say that you can't do it, but an experienced bass luthier is going to have the tools and equipment before he/she will attempt this kind of work. Many of us have had to learn this the hard way. The hard way is what you are doing now and this is the reason I am asking you to stop everything, get the right tools and equipment and begin again.

An example for what I am trying to say- Why is it that good bass luthiers can repair a crack to where you can't see it? They get the result because they have the right tools and equipment. They, also, have listened to their mentor's instructions on how to do the repair correctly.

Ruben, Hope this helps. Good luck.

wayne


wholmesbassviol@yahoo.com
www.holmesbassviol.com (http://www.holmesbassviol.com)
are u saying this types of clamps:



http://www.stringrepair.com/images/db6/DB_Strad_During_110.JPG

http://www.stringrepair.com/images/db3/ff6.JPG

[Thomas Erickson]

Lipstick? :p

[Matthew Tucker]

... make sure to get a good fit- use sandpaper under the cleat to get the cleat to match the top surface or you could lipstick or chulk it.

Lipstick? On bare wood? :eek: Wayne have you taken a little too much of your gran's corn syrup again?

Ruben you don't absolutely need long throated clamps for cleats if you are careful. Strong magnets and weights will do just as well.

[Matthew Tucker]

... two identical tops ...

Well, before anyone gets excited about the Austrian research, they better read it first and then make up their own mind. Gotta link or is it hearsay?

[Adrian Levi]

Well, before anyone gets excited about the Austrian research, they better read it first and then make up their own mind. Gotta link or is it hearsay?

Hearsay , and no link ..... IMHO as you suggest , no two tops are the same and I cant imagine how a diamond cleat can really be better or worse that a rectangular one . There are so many huge forces in play when a bass is in tension that I'm guessing a soundpost and bassbar are the crucial elements in top strength and small pieces of glued spruce seem really the 'band aids' ( I am by no means saying that they are not a necessity) of repair whereas patches are 'true structural implants' that play an integral part in real top strength . I am still in the early stages of learning to repair instruments so I really cant draw on the experience that you have but I'm sure that you have done some excellent repairs using cleats other than diamond shape in the past.

[Thomas Erickson]

Somehow, I tend to think that cleats of the same mass, in the same places, are going to sound the same. Call me crazy. ;)

That said, from my perspective diamonds are going to: a) give you more crack-coverage for your given cleat mass, and b) anything that avoids putting things parallel to the grain sounds like a good idea to me.

Wayne - maybe it is just a matter of the instrument in question? Are diamond cleats lipstick on a pig if we're talking about a cheap factory bass?

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Here's my belief about the "scientific" instrument makers/ repair persons: If their methods are so great, why aren't their instruments better than the "craftsman/intuitive" makers'? I attended a talk recently where a violin maker with 20 plus years using the plate tuning technique (and other ****ysis tools) recently abandoned it, and says his instruments are better than ever, because he pays closer attention to his own instincts. This is a world-renowned maker; he's kept records on every instrument he has ever made. His main thrust was that no matter what you do, the resulting tone of the finished instrument will still be a surprise most of the time. As regards cleats, I'll take my decades of observation and experience (and that of many of my colleagues) over somebody's experiment with glitter or sand. Also to be considered is the fact that basses are different from the rest of the violin family, in that their plates are under much more stress because they are thinner in relation to their size, and because their huge width invites intense seasonal wood movement issues.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Oh, and Diamonds Are a Girl's Best Friend...:D

(sexist and dated--sue me)

[Ken Smith]

Oh, and Diamonds Are a Girl's Best Friend...:D

(sexist and dated--sue me)

We can share a 'Cell' on that one..:D:D

And, Diamonds ARE Forever (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3KdY_rm1SE)! Trust me, I did the Gig with her, twice!!;)

[Ruben E garcia]

I can’t really argue with any of you guys... about witch cleat work the best (Square, Diamond, feather, bevel)... I am 100% sure that there is not a perfect cleat... but different cleats show advantages and disadvantages (and some may be just bad) ... as long I don’t align the grain of the cleat with the top (that's just stupid) 45Deg, 30, and even 90 would do....by the way I am not discarding anybody’s point of view is supper interesting getting deep into the suggest I do have now a clear understanding of Cleats.

But where I really fail it was to get the cleats correctly fit to the top… it doesn’t matter how good a cleat can be… it won’t hide the fact that is not correctly jointed to the top…. Mistake a do believe is a product of not enough pressure applied, not well fit between top and cleat, and possibly I am not using the right procedure for the glue up… Hide glue is unlike any other glue that I ever work…. That Crucial moment… I was:

1) Applying glue to the top
2) Applying glue to the Cleat
3) Rubbing both
4) Waiting few second for proper bounding (I read to use a hair dryer to heat up the glue a this stage, or may be a should use a heat gun “may be too hot???”)
5) And clamping….


Now let me see if I do understand 100% are u guys talking about opening the crack again…??? It isn’t close enough…. Or just re-cleat?

Ps I am leaning towards Diamonds.... J my wife would agree with me J

[Thomas Erickson]

If the crack in question isn't closed up ship-shape, no cleat is going to get it there - you have to do your recon and complete the mission before you call in the airstrike, yeah? Cleats don't repair basses - they just help keep them together... ;)

[Ruben E garcia]

If the crack in question isn't closed up ship-shape, no cleat is going to get it there - you have to do your recon and complete the mission before you call in the airstrike, yeah? Cleats don't repair basses - they just help keep them together... ;)

Hi Friend :)... so what do u make from the satellite picture that I took... to me the crack is closed... it’s an old crack is being repair before. Dirt got inside, I use hot water to open and clean… I did apply some good pressure and hot glue to it… but it will never look like a new crack… ready for an air strike?

[Richard Prowse]

We can share a 'Cell' on that one..:D:D

And, Diamonds ARE Forever (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3KdY_rm1SE)! Trust me, I did the Gig with her, twice!!;)
Ah, Ken, I love Shirley Bassey!!!
I grew up listening to her. She's in a class of her own!
I wish I'd been there on those gigs. Why didn't you call me at the time?

[Ken Smith]

Ah, Ken, I love Shirley Bassey!!!
I grew up listening to her. She's in a class of her own!
I wish I'd been there on those gigs. Why didn't you call me at the time?

They were in NY in the late '70s/early 80s. If she calls me next week, I still wont call you.. lol

A job is a job.. right?

[Richard Prowse]

They were in NY in the late '70s/early 80s. If she calls me next week, I still wont call you.. lol

A job is a job.. right?
The 'why didn't you call me' thing was a bit of a joke.

[Ken Smith]

The 'why didn't you call me' thing was a bit of a joke.

I know, but in NY, things can get tough at night.. :eek:

[Ruben E garcia]

This was Brutal hijacking of my thread Lol ;)

[Ken Smith]

This was Brutal hijacking of my thread Lol ;)

You want it all deleted? You know, once you get Wayne in here, anything can happen. It's your thread. Just say the word.

[Ruben E garcia]

You want it all deleted? You know, once you get Wayne in here, anything can happen. It's your thread. Just say the word.
No that's ok, its not that bad... I got nothing new anyways :D

[Ruben E garcia]

Well as Arnold suggested I am going to be using Diamond Cleats, the cleats are about 1" each side and 1/8" thick and also with the grain running about 45 degrees ...

I am using this time an bigger chisel as Mathew suggested, he say that it will be more fun this way :)

I am going to be making few deep throat C clamps... as per Wayne Advise to use the right tool for the job (no lipstick sorry)

and Taking all apart and do it again as Ken also recommend for me to do



http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_4414.jpg


after making the clamps I am going to laid down the cleats but before I will send and picture for everybody to see what is going to be my plan :D

[Matthew Tucker]

Ha! And get that chisel sharpened ;)

[Thomas Erickson]

Ha! And get that chisel sharpened ;)

You can start that thread! :eek:

[Matthew Tucker]

Tell me about it ... just spent three hours with 80 grit trying to undo the damage I did to the back of a pristine HSS plane blade by putting it down, freshly lapped, on my bench overnight. If anything defines "the pits", that does :(

[Ruben E garcia]

No no nooooo!!!.... I am good in that department, It doesn,t really show in the picture but that chisel its very sharp, I did spend yesterday more than an hour sharpening that chisel its deadly sharp


I start by flatting with 80 grip sand paper on a granite stone, then I move to 320g sand paper, and so on…
Then I use my Veritas honing jig and register jig (Amazing little tool) for the bevel a 25 degrees again 80G, 320G, and tree diamond stones 320, 600, 1000. After that I use and 2000G sand paper and finally a leather belt for mirror finish…. When I done I do a 30 Degrees micro bevel… and I use the back on my The thumb nail to make sure its sharp…

Also while I am working I am make sure stay sharp… by honing it with my leather belt… those chisels my be not the best chisels out there but they hold the bevel sharp as long I don’t mess with too much H. glue or little metal wires like the ones that I found on some of the patches in my DB

PS it doesn’t give me you a lot of room for accidents

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/myhand.jpg

[Ruben E garcia]

PS how the cleat is looking it is fine????

[Ruben E garcia]

Easy, big fellow, with that chisel! If you are going to chisel after you glue the cleats-you might want to put tape around the cleat in case (or inverted diamond shaped cakes of lipstick) don't want to damage the top-Ruben, if you ain't careful, this could be disaster coming down the road.

I guess it would be considered butchery to use a sander on the edges of the cleats before they are glued?


cleat-look I don't know, but looks like your hand is healing up good. How did you do that- the wounds look like about 2mm shy of the width of the chisel...


Hi Wayne I guess the traditional way is chisel out the Cleat after Gluing… I don’t think that sanding before gluing it’s a bad idea… for now I am sticking to what I have seem (don’t want to be very creative).. I am going to tape around the cleats for sure, don’t want to nick the top… to be honest I did make few nicks the first time

The hand its fine, it was a 10mm wound and it hit the bone.. Lots of blood and all that, I lost some tactile sensation on the skin of my finger, I got a none feeling in a good part of that finger right after the accident, like local local anesthesia feeling… I was tacking down the cleats and old hide glue from the top with the small chisel and guess what! my hand was on the way… and the chisel slipped….. Boom… work time was over

Now I am very careful and aware where my fingers are all the time…

[Matthew Tucker]

I guess I saw your microbevel and thought it was a burr ...

i think you'll find that no amount of tape will save the top from a sharp chisel.

Better to be careful and use a slicing movement in an upward directon. You'll work it out. Your cleat looks fine to me.

[Thomas Erickson]

I hate to derail the thread any further, but -

If you are stropping your chisels, the microbevels probably aren't worth the effort - but I haven't tried both (together) either. It just seems a bit counterintuitive (to me) to put a tiny little bevel on a blade and then polish it on a soft surface. But hey - whatever works! ;)

[Adrian Levi]

the cleat looks fine , but as we've come to realize ....

'' one mans cleat is another mans poison '' :o:)

[Ruben E garcia]

I hate to derail the thread any further, but -

If you are stropping your chisels, the microbevels probably aren't worth the effort - but I haven't tried both (together) either. It just seems a bit counterintuitive (to me) to put a tiny little bevel on a blade and then polish it on a soft surface. But hey - whatever works! ;)

I though so too, In fact I did post a little thread about it in TB... and every one seems to agree that micro bevel was the way to go...I just make sure the are sharp one of my test is to shave few hairs of my arm, stroke a piece of paper on the edge with the chisel(this is a hard one to pass Lol).... if I only have learned something working with wood is that if your tools aren't sharp you are not going to go far....

[Ruben E garcia]

I guess I saw your microbevel and thought it was a burr ...

i think you'll find that no amount of tape will save the top from a sharp chisel.

Better to be careful and use a slicing movement in an upward directon. You'll work it out. Your cleat looks fine to me.


I got a good camera but not as good as yours I can really get cl ose details as your pictures... I guess you are into Photography too hum?

Tape, I did save the top from few nicks last time, but u are right no tape is going to offer 100% against a sharp chisel, that is for sure.

last but not least... yes I saw ur video shaving those cleats, u are using a totally different technique as I did, I was using downward force (not a great idea), u also cut with the flat part I was using the bevel part... the cleats closed to the bass bar are specially hard to shape (keep posting your restoration project it really helps a lot and more videos if thats posible :))

[Ruben E garcia]

the cleat looks fine , but as we've come to realize ....

'' one mans cleat is another mans poison '' :o:)
That's right :D

[Ken Smith]

If I ever spend 5 times longer to install cleats because I am using a chisel rather than making and shaping the cleats BEFORE I glue them, I would put down tape-layers if you have to---one slip- and you could crack the top-helloooooooooooooo

Wayne, how can you get even clamp pressure if the Cleats are already beveled?

Also, isn't it easier to Bevel/shape them AFTER the are glued down to something?

[Matthew Tucker]

Wayne whatever works for you is fine. Your descriptions are detailed, but I'd love if you would share some pics of your work.

[Matthew Tucker]

Wayne, it's better if you work out a way to resize them yourself, or even easier you open a free flickr or photobucket account and upload them there, then link to them. Its easy and you retain control of the pics. And you can use them on your own website if you want.

Alternatively you could take a sander to the photos and get the size down that way! ;)

[Ruben E garcia]

Good exchange, this weekend I made 4 deep c throat clamps… I am planning to build couple tools for the project, next will be a finger plane and then a caliper… not just to save some money but also I think is a good exercise… I will take some pictures soon

[Ruben E garcia]

Well Guys this is my plan:
1) For laying of the cleats: They are spaced about 2" in between, no more than 2 1/4", PS I didn't care for the proper grain orientation of the cleats at this point is only for placement.

2) Also this is where I am planning the sound post patch to go... I am not doing the SP patch just yet, I need to make a couples tools for this job and then I am planing to practice this procedure in a piece of scrap wood first...

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_4499.jpg

I am seeking for advise before I and clue this up... I can really use a series of steps sequence or methodology, and don't forget tips... :D

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_4498.jpg




The tool, it isnt fancy but it will get the job done...!!!

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_4500.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_4497.jpg

[Matthew Tucker]

Ruben it looks like you're on the right track to me.

As far as sequence goes I would repair the bottom block areas and do the sound post patch first, then the cleats last.

My tip: I often use small bags of lead shot as weights to clamp the cleats ... it does as good a job as a clamp and much easier.

[Ruben E garcia]

Ruben it looks like you're on the right track to me.

As far as sequence goes I would repair the bottom block areas and do the sound post patch first, then the cleats last.

My tip: I often use small bags of lead shot as weights to clamp the cleats ... it does as good a job as a clamp and much easier.

Thank u, good tip... It really makes sence...i still need a couple extra tools to make the sp patch...!

[Matthew Tucker]

I think the cleats are insurance, not the main game. After fitting the post patch it's nice to be able to manoeuver a plane around that area without knocking into cleats. Same with the block repair. If all the cleats are fitted as laid out, it's going to be less fun trimming the block patch. I think.

I would also do all the cleating and reshape the top, if needed, before the new bass bar or sp patch is installed.

Wayne, speaking of sequencing, you dint mean by the above that you would cleat the top THEN reshape it, if needed? :)

[Ken Smith]

I place it in a wood mode(if I am going to replace the bass bar I will remove most of it before I put the top in the mold.

BTW, Traeger comes up pretty often- one thing that I totally disagree with him about is springing in a bassbar. IMO, it is totally unnecessary and good for nothing.

If you are going to re-shape the Top from depressions or sinkage you HAVE to take out the Bassbar. Actually, you need to 'gut' the inside of the Top if it's a full pressing. If a partial pressing, remove everything in that area if not more.

The usual areas that sink are the lower Bassbar area, upper Bassbar area, center Bridge area and Soundpost area in that order from what I have seen. If just under the Bar at the bottom, it is possible that it was caused by a sprung-in Bar. The Bar itself when sprung in will not push out the Top in the center like some think because it is anchored against thinner graduated areas of the Top that are weaker. The sprung Bar will pull the top inwards at the ends and possibly split to top as well.

I have had quite a few basses restored where the Top was partially or completely re-shaped so I have seen the process quite a few times. Last week I was up at Arnold's and saw the plaster mold outside behind the shop. I went to lift it and uhgggg, no way. It's a two man job. Arnold mentioned that each time he had to move the mold around with or without the Top in it he had his assistant help him move it.

[Ruben E garcia]

Thank you for the feedback.... I got a question and this applies to SP patch and all...
I read that to get a good bounding you need to let the cleat sit on the top from one minute till the hide glue jell, and the using a hair dryer heat the glue again and then apply pressure to it...

Or I should just apply pressure to the cleat as fast as I can and clamp with good pressure, not too much but firm..

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Thank you for the feedback.... I got a question and this applies to SP patch and all...
I read that to get a good bounding you need to let the cleat sit on the top from one minute till the hide glue gel, and the using a hair dryer heat the glue again and then apply pressure to it...

Or I should just apply pressure to the cleat as fast as I can and clamp with good pressure, not too much but firm.. Yes, just glue it and clamp it. Don't worry about applying too much clamp pressure. Fine Woodworking had a great article a few years ago where they tested joints put together with varying amounts of clamp pressure, and different glues. What they discovered to everyone's surprise, is that there is no such thing as a "starved" glue joint. The high-pressure joints, though they squeezed out more of the glue, were actually stronger.

When you get ready to glue in your soundpost patch, make sure you size the wood of the bass top and the patch with thin hide glue, because there will be considerable end grain revealed. Without sizing, the glue will soak into the endgrain too much and the joint will eventually come apart. Also, if you are not using a counter form on the opposite side, you will need a lot of clamps, and you'll need to apply them quickly. Gluing down temporary cleats around the soundpost patch will keep it from sliding around when it's full of slippery glue.

[Pino Cazzaniga]

I think the faster the better. Hot hide glue is strong as it work at a molecular level. If it create a bond it will fail, as the glue itself is brittle. So it's better not to let it jell, but to clamp fast and with a good pressure.
This way the extra not needed amount of glue will go out from the joint.
If the glue jell too soon, maybe it is too thick, or the workshop is too cold.
A good joint, as far as glue thickness and temperature go, is when the surfaces don't slip, after rubbing, even before they are clamped.
Good luck, Ruben, you have a nice project there...
oops, sorry Arnold, I was typing while you was answering...

[Ruben E garcia]

Yes, just glue it and clamp it. Don't worry about applying too much clamp pressure. Fine Woodworking had a great article a few years ago where they tested joints put together with varying amounts of clamp pressure, and different glues. What they discovered to everyone's surprise, is that there is no such thing as a "starved" glue joint. The high-pressure joints, though they squeezed out more of the glue, were actually stronger.


Yes I always though that too much pressure will squeeze the glue out….


When you get ready to glue in your soundpost patch, make sure you size the wood of the bass top and the patch with thin hide glue, because there will be considerable end grain revealed. Without sizing, the glue will soak into the endgrain too much and the joint will eventually come apart. Also, if you are not using a counter form on the opposite side, you will need a lot of clamps, and you'll need to apply them quickly. Gluing down temporary cleats around the soundpost patch will keep it from sliding around when it's full of slippery glue

1. So I should apply thin coat of glue in both sides top and SP patch…
2. The counter form you mean by the front of the Bass top right?
3. Temp Cleats around the SP patch like the Mathew’s Restoration…

[Ruben E garcia]

I think the faster the better. Hot hide glue is strong as it work at a molecular level. If it create a bond it will fail, as the glue itself is brittle. So it's better not to let it jell, but to clamp fast and with a good pressure.
This way the extra not needed amount of glue will go out from the joint.
If the glue jell too soon, maybe it is too thick, or the workshop is too cold.
A good joint, as far as glue thickness and temperature go, is when the surfaces don't slip, after rubbing, even before they are clamped.
Good luck, Ruben, you have a nice project there...
oops, sorry Arnold, I was typing while you was answering...

That's 100% answer my question thanks... I though so but I wasn't sure… I guess sometimes you can’t believe all that you read… I will keep it simple

[Ruben E garcia]

I agree that if it is a regular bar, then, of course, I would take out all of it.

I am thinking on doing the bass bar… it got crack at both ends it doesn’t look like its growing or its open… but it if recommended, may as well get it done now….

Well now seems like it’s a tough job… some people prefer to avoid to change the BB unless its 100% necessary… I can’t really tell if it need to be replace, because it’s too old or stiff… It does have a crack… that’s a bad sign…

Now stupid question… can it be shorten a little and inlay patch the ends??? Or it will be an abomination of my sick mind??? :D

[Ken Smith]

I am thinking on doing the bass bar… it got crack at both ends it doesn’t look like its growing or its open… but it if recommended, may as well get it done now….

Well now seems like it’s a tough job… some people prefer to avoid to change the BB unless its 100% necessary… I can’t really tell if it need to be replace, because it’s too old or stiff… It does have a crack… that’s a bad sign…

Now stupid question… can it be shorten a little and inlay patch the ends??? Or it will be an abomination of my sick mind??? :D

The bass is apart and will be edges as necessary to fit back when done. You do NOT want to take it apart again if after you string up the bass and the weakest area not the Old Bar splits more.

Carve out the bar and clean the bass since you might re-shape the top or not. You have the best view of that. Then repair the crack 100% after shaping top and then cleat it on top of the wood after fitting the bar along that surface but don't glue in bar. Then notch the fitted bar to go over the cleats and glue it down. Do not inlay the cleats as that will weaken the top. Everything should fit 100% with just finger pressure, no force. Then clamp to make a life long glue joint. All excess glue not needed will squeeze out. Don't be so scientific with the amount of glue.

The grain of the wood, especially the end grain by far will suck in some glue. What it doesn't need, it spits out. One time a saddle lifted on me after a repair. The Block was new, sucked in a lot of glue and the ebony came loose from the tail wire pulling it. Re-gluing fixed it as I did it myself in my shop. That, I had time and tools for. The restoration I didn't..;)

[Ruben E garcia]

The bass is apart and will be edges as necessary to fit back when done. You do NOT want to take it apart again if after you string up the bass and the weakest area not the Old Bar splits more.

Carve out the bar and clean the bass since you might re-shape the top or not. You have the best view of that. Then repair the crack 100% after shaping top and then cleat it on top of the wood after fitting the bar along that surface but don't glue in bar. Then notch the fitted bar to go over the cleats and glue it down. Do not inlay the cleats as that will weaken the top. Everything should fit 100% with just finger pressure, no force. Then clamp to make a life long glue joint. All excess glue not needed will squeeze out. Don't be so scientific with the amount of glue.

The grain of the wood, especially the end grain by far will suck in some glue. What it doesn't need, it spits out. One time a saddle lifted on me after a repair. The Block was new, sucked in a lot of glue and the ebony came loose from the tail wire pulling it. Re-gluing fixed it as I did it myself in my shop. That, I had time and tools for. The restoration I didn't..;)


Thank you Ken for the detail explanation I was thinking on inlay patch bellow the BB (worng), I need to read about a little more about the BB replacement, So I am looking at SP patch, bass bar, block edges and Edges repair, ah and also cleats… I am going to be busy for a while

Ps I will let you guys know my plan in advantage just to be sure that I am in the right path

[Ken Smith]

This thread has been cleaned up by deleting the last several off-topic posts and its relative replies.

Ruben, you have the floor..

[Ruben E garcia]

In others news, I am currently working on a Home made Caliper with a deep throat, I think I need this tool to make the SP patch and a little finger plane and some gauges…PSS Peace and Love

[Ruben E garcia]

I am still working on the sound post patch, soon I will post some new pictures of my experiment, but for now I was looking for info about the patch online and I fond this info, I don’t really know is apply to an bass or a bass top I just though that I will be good to share it with you, it also have a second part..

[Matthew Tucker]

I find it easier to cut the patch out first, then trace the outline onto the back. I find it is easier then to carve the bed for the patch, keeping the edges crisp and clean.

[Ruben E garcia]

I find it easier to cut the patch out first, then trace the outline onto the back. I find it is easier then to carve the bed for the patch, keeping the edges crisp and clean.

Sure Mat but he also said to make a very small path with a 90 degrees angle... I know u rather do a big one about 10d, and that's ok, but it makes me wonder if what he do could apply to a db top also

[Matthew Tucker]

Sure you can do that on a DB top. But whether you think its a good idea or not is up to you. Personally, I don't really understand why he chooses to do it that way, and its the only time I've ever seen it done that way. So unless I can get the genius behind it, i'll stick with what I know!

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Sure Mat but he also said to make a very small path with a 90 degrees angle... I know u rather do a big one about 10d, and that's ok, but it makes me wonder if what he do could apply to a db top also
Please explain what this means, and who "he" is...???:confused:

[Ruben E garcia]

Please explain what this means, and who "he" is...???:confused:
Sorry Mr. Schnitzer, we are talking about the Article on my post # 139, the Articule is:
A series of articles by David Harris as he observes
Luthier Jan Shelley at work…

[Ruben E garcia]

Edges Almost ready
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0170.jpg

SP patch Drying as we speak:

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0172.jpg
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0173.jpg
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0171.jpg

[Ruben E garcia]

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0169.jpg

[Matthew Tucker]

nice clamps Reuben. Suggest you put a bolt through the glued-up neck of the clamp, for longevity, otherwise they'll pull apart one day when you tighten up and need it most!

[Ruben E garcia]

nice clamps Reuben. Suggest you put a bolt through the glued-up neck of the clamp, for longevity, otherwise they'll pull apart one day when you tighten up and need it most!
Good idea I need to make few more for the bass bar

[Ken Smith]

Is that Bass Bar in with the grain up and down or at an angle to the grain? I can't tell from these pictures. Also, how thick is that Bar?

[Ruben E garcia]

Is that Bass Bar in with the grain up and down or at an angle to the grain? I can't tell from these pictures. Also, how thick is that Bar?


May be u can see the bass bar grain better in this picture:

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_4498.jpg

The bass bar grain is parallel to the top grain,

I have to shave the hump a little to do the edges, anyways it will be replace by a new bar.

I will tell you later how tick it is

[Ken Smith]

May be u can see the bass bar grain better in this picture:

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_4498.jpg

The bass bar grain is parallel to the top grain,

I have to shave the hump a little to do the edges, anyways it will be replace by a new bar.

I will tell you later how tick it is

If it was there already or an integral Bar, take it out. The new Bar needs to be at a slight angle. There is a formula for that but can't recall it also, most guys have their own way but not straight as for one, it wont do as good a job and two, straight with grain will promote cracks along the Bar.

[Ruben E garcia]

If it was there already or an integral Bar, take it out. The new Bar needs to be at a slight angle. There is a formula for that but can't recall it also, most guys have their own way but not straight as for one, it wont do as good a job and two, straight with grain will promote cracks along the Bar.

Chuck have some instructions on how to position the BB (somewhat confusing instructions), I was thinking on placing the new one in the same position as the current one, of course unless this one is running 100% parallel to the top grain

[Ruben E garcia]

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0174.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0179.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0178.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0177.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG01763.jpg

[Ruben E garcia]

Is that Bass Bar in with the grain up and down or at an angle to the grain? I can't tell from these pictures. Also, how thick is that Bar?

the Bar is 1" Thick

[Matthew Tucker]

Looks like a pretty good SP patch to me ... well done! I find doing a SP patch is one of the most satisfying repairs to do.

Is that a crack near the bottom end of the bass bar, running into the bass bar? If so I think that spot might be a candidate for a small inlay patch as well.

[Ruben E garcia]

Looks like a pretty good SP patch to me ... well done! I find doing a SP patch is one of the most satisfying repairs to do.

Is that a crack near the bottom end of the bass bar, running into the bass bar? If so I think that spot might be a candidate for a small inlay patch as well.
Thank you,
PS. its runs about an inch in the bar, yes I think I may do a inlay patch also there, can you see the crack on post #151 picture?

[Matthew Tucker]

yep that's the one. But careful, you'll have much less depth to deal with, only 6-7mm. It's possibly overkill, but I'd do it.

[Ruben E garcia]

I say this bar is glue on to the top , for some reason I not 100% sure

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0184.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0186.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0185.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0180.jpg

[Matthew Tucker]

yes 100% sure it's glued, otherwise the grain lines would match. But note, it's a very close/almost invisible glue join ... that's what you need to achieve with your new bar!

[Ruben E garcia]

yes 100% sure it's glued, otherwise the grain lines would match. But note, it's a very close/almost invisible glue join ... that's what you need to achieve with your new bar!
Yes they did a good job on that join, fact its hard to tell other that the grain doesnt match 100%

[Ken Smith]

Yes they did a good job on that join, fact its hard to tell other that the grain doesnt match 100%

On that pic you can see 100% the bas is NOT the Top but a separate Bar.

[Ruben E garcia]

On that pic you can see 100% the bas is NOT the Top but a separate Bar.

Correct.
So Ken To answer your previous question the bar is 1" thick

[Ken Smith]

Correct.
So Ken To answer your previous question the bar is 1" thick

Yes, you mentioned that earlier indirectly. Ask a few Luthiers that have done a lot of Bars, maybe Arnold or Jeff and see for that size bass what might be best. Most Bars blanks I have seen are thicker in the rough form. I just don't know what to advise here other than the thickness might matter.

[Ruben E garcia]

Springing or not springing the bass bar, at least a little?

[Ken Smith]

Springing or not springing the bass bar, at least a little?

NONE, Ever, unless you want the top to sink at the ends sooner or later. Flush fit only. Sprung Bars break basses, period.

[Ruben E garcia]

NONE, Ever, unless you want the top to sink at the ends sooner or later. Flush fit only. Sprung Bars break basses, period.

Yes I remember you mentioning something similar before, thumb pressure on the bar, very little or no pressure

[Ken Smith]

Yes I remember you mentioning something similar before, thumb pressure on the bar, very little or no pressure

The Bar should be fit Flush to the Top, no pressure at all. Even clamping without forcing the ends down at all.

[Ruben E garcia]

Ok I am going a little crazy with the Edges:
I can not make the south part of the top to flush, everything else is making contact with the surface, and If I keep removing material from the whole top so the south part can touch, I am going to be removing a lot of material from the original top... I don't know what is wrong... I also notice that the top curve from west to east is not perfect should i be concern about that? u can see it the pictures ???

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0200.jpg
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0196-1.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0197.jpg
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0198.jpg
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0199.jpg

[Ken Smith]

Show me/us the Fitting problem you are having and do not remove anything original.

Sometimes the Blocked frame shifts. Sometimes you have shrinkage of the Top grains and the Top is shy of the Ribs i n the lower bout. In this case, The Ribs are cut and trimmed at the Block. For this you have to remove the lower Ribs from all blocks and re-fit it o the Corner possibly but if not, just at the Tailblock, Cut and pull together to fit the Top and maybe Back. The Plates should overhang just a bit. In the Blocks with Ribs twisted inwards, then the Top will overhang more. Still, nothing is ever perfect on an old bass.

[Ruben E garcia]

Show me/us the Fitting problem you are having and do not remove anything original.

Sometimes the Blocked frame shifts. Sometimes you have shrinkage of the Top grains and the Top is shy of the Ribs i n the lower bout. In this case, The Ribs are cut and trimmed at the Block. For this you have to remove the lower Ribs from all blocks and re-fit it o the Corner possibly but if not, just at the Tailblock, Cut and pull together to fit the Top and maybe Back. The Plates should overhang just a bit. In the Blocks with Ribs twisted inwards, then the Top will overhang more. Still, nothing is ever perfect on an old bass.


I see what are u saying, I am sorry I did not explain my self clearly, the problem that I am having is the south part of the edges are not making contact with the flat surface, in this case the Edges thickness is about 7mm, for me to make the south part to touch, I will have to remove original material from the top edges bottom and this will result and a thinner than the original edge… I know that is not right… I don’t know if the top got distort during my repairs or what should I do…
Should I clamp it knowing that there is a little stress anyways?

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0200.jpg


but the rest of the top is resting okhttp://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0204.jpg

[Ken Smith]

Show the Top sitting on the ribs, dry clamped around lightly. See what gives and doesn't. The bass Bar is in already?

[Ruben E garcia]

Show the Top sitting on the ribs, dry clamped around lightly. See what gives and doesn't. The bass Bar is in already?

It still have some of the old bar or most to the old bar since I did shave down the bass bar hump only.

[Ken Smith]

It still have some of the old bar or most to the old bar since I did shave down the bass bar hump only.

Let's see what you did with that Bar. Was it angled slightly across the grain from top to bottom or straight with the grain? Is there a crack under the bar or only up to the bar at the bottom?

[Ruben E garcia]

Let's see what you did with that Bar. Was it angled slightly across the grain from top to bottom or straight with the grain? Is there a crack under the bar or only up to the bar at the bottom?


I did shave it a lot just enought so the bar let the top to sit in a flat surface to make sure that it's flat:

Original:

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/100_4403.jpg


now:

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0194.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0170.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0174.jpg

a small crack in the botom

[Ruben E garcia]

Question, this is where the old bass bar used to be, I am thinking on putting the new one right on the same spot, but is the bar could be way to align with the top grain, that could cause a crack later on!!!

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0211.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0213.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0214.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0215.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0216.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0217.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0218.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0219.jpg

[Ken Smith]

Scored lines? Black ink?

The shadow of the oxidation difference is plenty enough to see where the old bar was for reference regardless of where the new bar is going.

[Ruben E garcia]

Scored lines? Black ink?

The shadow of the oxidation difference is plenty enough to see where the old bar was for reference regardless of where the new bar is going.

No ink just pencil marks, but should I place the new one on the same spot?

[Ken Smith]

No ink just pencil marks, but should I place the new one on the same spot?

I can't see top to bottom well enough on a straight line but if not angled, angle it slightly more. There is a formula I read years ago for this but forgot where I read it. It has to do I think with the length of the bass and possibly the width. Not sure. Ask Arnold or Jeff. They have dome more 'correct' bars than the average 10 or more luthiers.

[Ruben E garcia]

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0229.jpg
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0230.jpg
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0237.jpg
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0241.jpg
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0242.jpg
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0243.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0244.jpg
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0251.jpg
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0246.jpg

In my check list of Top repairs:

Cracks -Done
Sound Post Patch -Done
Edges -Done
Finger Patch - Done
Cleats -50% -Next
Bass Bar -Next

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Ruben, most luthiers agree that patches with straight edges that parallel the grain lines are not the best idea. There is a good deal of strength along this line, which can contribute to forming a new crack. Hope this is helpful.

[Ruben E garcia]

Ruben, most luthiers agree that patches with straight edges that parallel the grain lines are not the best idea. There is a good deal of strength along this line, which can contribute to forming a new crack. Hope this is helpful.


2097

I did not think about that, I have seem many repairs made this way, its does make sence that an
straight grain patch can cause problems, in this case the patch is being feather in all 4 the edges, and its also small.
I suppose next time that If I do an square patch make sure it doesnt align with the grain, or make it oval.

Arnold! Any advise on the bass bar placement ???

[Arnold Schnitzer]

2097

I did not think about that, I have seem many repairs made this way, its does make sence that an
straight grain patch can cause problems, in this case the patch is being feather in all 4 the edges, and its also small.
I suppose next time that If I do an square patch make sure it doesnt align with the grain, or make it oval.

Arnold! Any advise on the bass bar placement ???Yes. It goes on the E side.

Ba-dum-bump!

Seriously, you want to first choose your bridge width. In general this is not much wider than the distance between upper f-hole eyes. Then you lay out the bass bar so it is slightly outside the center of the bridge imprint. The angle cannot be set by the violin-maker's method because basses are not standardized. I personally like the distance from the center line to the bass bar to be a bit more than half at the top what it is on the bottom.

[Ruben E garcia]

Yes. It goes on the E side.

Ba-dum-bump!

Seriously, you want to first choose your bridge width. In general this is not much wider than the distance between upper f-hole eyes. Then you lay out the bass bar so it is slightly outside the center of the bridge imprint. The angle cannot be set by the violin-maker's method because basses are not standardized. I personally like the distance from the center line to the bass bar to be a bit more than half at the top what it is on the bottom.

That's some great info Arnold thanks...
Two things:

-I got tree bridges, the bridge of chooice should be a medium side bridge, just to be safe.
-The My understanding is that the BB length is 7/8 of the top length.

[Ruben E garcia]

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0316.jpg
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0315.jpg
Gluing the Bass:
I had to make 9 Deep throat Clamps 
A Little messy
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0318.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0320.jpg
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0319.jpg

[Ken Smith]

Did you chalk fit that Bar 100% flush with the Top? Looks like it's gaping all over from the pics.

[Ruben E garcia]

Did you chalk fit that Bar 100% flush with the Top? Looks like it's gaping all over from the pics.

Yes I did chalk fit it. the gap's that u may be seeing is by at the end of the bar, it meant to be that way, that will be chisel again

[Ruben E garcia]

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/rgarcia26/IMAG0329.jpg

[Ken Smith]

That glue line doesn't look that tight wood-to-wood but if you're happy, I'm happy..