Mathias Neuner bass, worth it?

[Frank Larouche]

Hello everyone and hello Ken,

This bass appear today in the kijiji ads in my town and from the pics I'm not sure what it is, in the description he say it's the original label by Mathias Neuner, but it's roundback and from what I've checked so far bass from this maker tend to be flatback but I may be mistaken. I look like a german shop bass too I think. anyway what can you tell from the pics and do you think it's worth 12 k. I will try it of course in the future!

http://montreal.kijiji.ca/c-acheter-et-vendre-instruments-de-musique-cordes-Contrebasse-W0QQAdIdZ235629920

Thanks

Francis

[Ken Smith]

Hello everyone and hello Ken,

This bass appear today in the kijiji ads in my town and from the pics I'm not sure what it is, in the description he say it's the original label by Mathias Neuner, but it's roundback and from what I've checked so far bass from this maker tend to be flatback but I may be mistaken. I look like a german shop bass too I think. anyway what can you tell from the pics and do you think it's worth 12 k. I will try it of course in the future!

http://montreal.kijiji.ca/c-acheter-et-vendre-instruments-de-musique-cordes-Contrebasse-W0QQAdIdZ235629920

Thanks

Francis

The label might be real but it looks way older than that bass. I wish you had better pics of the scroll (all sides), top and back. The varnish and condition of the wood under it looks mid-late 20th century to me. Is the varnish original? I have seen very few if any round back basses from Mittenwald before 1900 but it is possible. The price however is very cheap for a 'real' Neuner bass. I will look up his dates later on. The Neuners were a big family of makers for about two centuries.

[Frank Larouche]

Thanks mr. Smith!

I would love to have scroll pic too! The round back and the general look was bugging me too. From what I gathered, instrument labeled mathias Neuner where probably shop instrument so I doubt that a shop would have took the time to carved a round back.

Anyway the owner have the original receipt from his father that dated from 1952. 12k seems a bit high for a generic german shop bass from the early-mid 20th century.

francis

[Ken Smith]

Ok, there are 5 makers of that exact name, I, II, III, IV and V. Your label by date is probably from M.N. V., the label, NOT the bass. I have pictures in 2 books of that exact label but different dates on each. One by M.N. II and one from M.N. V. That means that the same label copies were used for 4 generations of the 5.

How easy is it to put a label in that doesn't belong? Well, with probably 1'000s of them printed on sheets, VERY easy.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

The way the upper bouts meet the c-bouts is different than most "shop" basses one encounters; it's extra-curvy there. The overall shape seems inspired by the French solo basses. As far as the date, it's really hard to tell via pictures, but I agree with Ken that it looks over-varnished or re-varnished.

[Frank Larouche]

Thanks Arnold and ken for the thoughts

The price is a little bit higher than my budget (5-7k, maybe a bit more), I will check it out and maybe talk a bit with the owner if the sound is good.

Arnold I agree with you, I have seen a couple of Juzek type shop bass and earlyer german blockless shop bass and the overall shape of this one is different.

What do you think of the price, does it seem fair for a possibly overvarnished bass of uncertain origin^

If I had a little bit more saving, I would definitely go to New York to visit your shop! You are two of my double bass hero for sure!

francis

[Ken Smith]

Thanks Arnold and ken for the thoughts

The price is a little bit higher than my budget (5-7k, maybe a bit more), I will check it out and maybe talk a bit with the owner if the sound is good.

Arnold I agree with you, I have seen a couple of Juzek type shop bass and earlyer german blockless shop bass and the overall shape of this one is different.

What do you think of the price, does it seem fair for a possibly overvarnished bass of uncertain origin^

If I had a little bit more saving, I would definitely go to New York to visit your shop! You are two of my double bass hero for sure!

francis

On the price considering what it is probably not, I think you can do better. Arnold has a nice old Czech bass there that is like an early Juzek but a flat back c.1920s that sounds good and is all original except for the gears and is way under that price. Traveling might save you money in the long run. Being stuck in one area allows dealers to jack it up without competition. Competition is a good thing and helps to keep it more honest I think.

[Stefano Senni]

to me it's a French bass, early 1900...

[Frank Larouche]

So I tried this bass this afternoon and the bass sound very very good even if it's been 15 years or so since nobody plays it. The strings were too high to play easily but the sound was fantastic. I played maybe a dozen of bass since I start to search and this is the best one of them all easily! Pizz the sound is really big and full of volume, even in all the register and with the bow it is something to say the least. The arco tone is the best one I have ever had. The bass is in good shape, the weird cracks are only scratches in the finish.

It is weird that Mr. Senni sees it as a french bass because the tuner are are french style like the Vuillaume school and the jacquet-gand on this site. It is old for sure and the appraiser tought so too (Forget in Montreal).

The finish is not that shiny in person, the pictures were misleading. The owner had the bass appreased and repaired for 4k in 2003 from a very good luthier in montreal so it seem a real bargain at that price.

Did I mention it sound fantastic!!

Do you think it not reasonnable for someone to take a loan for a instrument knowing that I'm a student for now but that i finish my degree in december?

[Ken Smith]

So I tried this bass this afternoon and the bass sound very very good even if it's been 15 years or so since nobody plays it. The strings were too high to play easily but the sound was fantastic. I played maybe a dozen of bass since I start to search and this is the best one of them all easily! Pizz the sound is really big and full of volume, even in all the register and with the bow it is something to say the least. The arco tone is the best one I have ever had. The bass is in good shape, the weird cracks are only scratches in the finish.

It is weird that Mr. Senni sees it as a french bass because the tuner are are french style like the Vuillaume school and the jacquet-gand on this site. It is old for sure and the appraiser tought so too (Forget in Montreal).

The finish is not that shiny in person, the pictures were misleading. The owner had the bass appreased and repaired for 4k in 2003 from a very good luthier in montreal so it seem a real bargain at that price.

Did I mention it sound fantastic!!

Do you think it not reasonnable for someone to take a loan for a instrument knowing that I'm a student for now but that i finish my degree in december?

Can you show me the Scroll/pegbox, all 4 sides and better pics of the back button area. You are asking for information with less than the needed pictures to at lease take a good guess. Yes, the bass looks french but do you see tuners exactly as I do? Are the tuners on the bass french/french or German made french style copies? Would you know the difference? I would, more than likely.

We are talking here partially blind. You have this on Talkbass as well with some strange opinions from the gallery of non-experts.

Show us more of the bass and maybe we can ID it better. I don't see that label as mating the bass in style or age. Has anyone here ever seen a Mathius Neuner bass withe a round back? There were so many makers in Mittenwald and all over Germany in the past 150 years, makers and shops and cottage industry suppliers that it gets very hard to ID anything exactly from Germany sometimes. I do not see this bass as 19th century German/Mittenwald. Neiner then was Neuner & Hornsteiner but this maker did use his fathers labels as well. The no.94 is the house number, not the instrument so only the date needs changing and many of the same date were produced for the trade, Violins thru basses. All one has to do to put that label in that bass is copy one from a book, white out the date, copy it again on some paper, throw it in your jeans and wash them in the laundry, dry them, iron it, rub it in some dirt, write a date in and glue it in the bass. There, you have an old looking label. But, it doesn't match the bass or style being made in that period. Circle gets the square!

[Frank Larouche]

Once again thanks a lot Mr. Smith for all your very good advice.

I know that the best thing to do would be to have better pics including some of the scroll. For the moment those are the only one that the seller have. If sometime next week I borrow the bass, the first thing that I will do will be to send you better pictures!

Concerning the tuner I am no way an expert on this, I educate myself on this forum, talkbass, reputable luthier site and some violin book that I borrow from the library! All that I can say is that they are french looking.

Also I am well aware that the label is probably a fake or a misplaced one. Strings instruments are very tough to identify even for good luthier, so I'm sure of nothing.The bass seems to be old (the owner have the original facture of his father dating from 1952 in a philadelphia shop and at the time his father was buying an already old bass) and in good shape. A trip to a good luthier will confirm that.

At first the owner wanted to bargain a bit but when I tried it he had a couple more answer for his ads and he wanted to see if other were interested. I will wait a couple of days (that is difficult!) and contact him to see if it is sold.

One thing is sure, it is that the sound arco and pizz beat any bass that i have tried (new or old) in this price range.

Sorry for the long post and I feel very lucky to have someone of your stature Mr, Smith to answer my humble questions and to give me some advices. It is not so easy to shop for a first real double bass, there is a lot of variables tu juggle with.

Francis

[Ken Smith]

Once again thanks a lot Mr. Smith for all your very good advice.

I know that the best thing to do would be to have better pics including some of the scroll. For the moment those are the only one that the seller have. If sometime next week I borrow the bass, the first thing that I will do will be to send you better pictures!

Concerning the tuner I am no way an expert on this, I educate myself on this forum, talkbass, reputable luthier site and some violin book that I borrow from the library! All that I can say is that they are french looking.

Also I am well aware that the label is probably a fake or a misplaced one. Strings instruments are very tough to identify even for good luthier, so I'm sure of nothing.The bass seems to be old (the owner have the original facture of his father dating from 1952 in a philadelphia shop and at the time his father was buying an already old bass) and in good shape. A trip to a good luthier will confirm that.

At first the owner wanted to bargain a bit but when I tried it he had a couple more answer for his ads and he wanted to see if other were interested. I will wait a couple of days (that is difficult!) and contact him to see if it is sold.

One thing is sure, it is that the sound arco and pizz beat any bass that i have tried (new or old) in this price range.

Sorry for the long post and I feel very lucky to have someone of your stature Mr, Smith to answer my humble questions and to give me some advices. It is not so easy to shop for a first real double bass, there is a lot of variables tu juggle with.

Francis

This bass was bought in Philly? I can't tell you how easy it was then to get wrong information as well as now on origins of instruments. I think from the pics the bass is old but 20th century. Maybe better pics will tell a different story. Many of the basses I have seen that were sold as French are actually German basses so that's another problem. I rarely see the opposite where it is called German and is really French. In the market place where millions of cheaper German instruments where made for export in the last 100 years, basses of French origin have a higher perceived value. That word perceived can be very deceiving. Very often we see better made German basses made to look French so as possibly by the maker or shop not to fall into the low $ bracket in sales of cheaper factory instruments. Some of these are very good basses, factory/shop made aside. Many many French basses are also factory/shop made as well. Some of these are better than comparative German work and some not as good, especially in sound. The pedigree names being worth more than the factory names regardless. A Mathias Neuner would probably sell for more than a Neuner-Hornsteiner even if made by the same person, the exact same bass if labeled as an individual rather than a shop.

Show the pics.. It's a learning curve with no end ever in sight.

[Frank Larouche]

Thanks Ken, this is very insightful!

I will wait a couple of days and pray that the bass doesnt sell. I will offer the owner a lower price. If he lower of a couple grand I could buy it and I think that at that price it will be impossible to beat in term of sound regardless of the origin. Of course after a trip to a local luthier and my teacher (very good orchestra player) to be 100 % sure.

If I end up with this bass (I cross my fingers) I will investigate further the origin ( with your help I hope ;)).

Francis

[Ken Smith]

Thanks Ken, this is very insightful!

I will wait a couple of days and pray that the bass doesnt sell. I will offer the owner a lower price. If he lower of a couple grand I could buy it and I think that at that price it will be impossible to beat in term of sound regardless of the origin. Of course after a trip to a local luthier and my teacher (very good orchestra player) to be 100 % sure.

If I end up with this bass (I cross my fingers) I will investigate further the origin ( with your help I hope ;)).

Francis

AFTER you buy it? Before would be my best advice. Just in case. You don't know what's inside this bass.

Very good players are not always experts on basses and their worth or origin. Trust me on that!

[Frank Larouche]

Like i said I will go to a luthier before buying the bass, that's for sure. I will also try to send you a couple more pictures! One thing is sure you know your double basses!

But thanks for the reminder, for this kind of money, I thinks it's very important to be very careful with a purchase.