Good old Weichs!

[Terry McDougal]

I've just put Spiro Weichs back on my bass. I've tried Dominants, Bel Cantos and Evas lately and they're all good. Last weekend, for reasons I won't bore you with, I finished up playing a set with a borrowed ply strung with Weichs. Bowing and pizz were required. I noticed that, high up on the G, these strings seemed to have a nice sort of clarity that came with a sort of 'bite'. I was also reminded of their nice pizz sound. A couple of days later I put a slightly used set on my bass. They still sound a little 'new', but I'm liking their honest tone. Okay, a little more care is needed to avoid scratches, but I can handle that. I think that when these strings really settle I'll be happy for a long time.
I'm also thinking of the money I've put into other strings over the last year, only to finish up back where I started.

[Eddue Johnson]

I agree that Spirocore weichs are great hybrid string, as well as the entire Spirocore family of strings. I recently started using Spiro starks and feel like they are under rated as a hybrid string. My main bass has Dominants, which are also a good hybrid string but with a completely different sound and feel.

I think one reason weichs and most other Thomastik strings are overlooked as hybrids because to get the best out of them you need the proper setup, which will be different than the standard jazz or orchestra setup. In my area, most of the jazz bassists use Thomastiks and have their basses setup with the typical low bridge height and lower tension weichs, great for pizz but requiring a lot more effort to get a good arco tone. Somewhat the opposite for orchestra players but they rarely use Spirocores around here. And I have heard many guys say that it's too hard to play 3 or 4 jazz sets a night with a bridge set at the typical arco basist's height, even when using weichs or solos, not to mention mittles or starks!

But with the right setup, on the right bass, weichs can be great hybrids.

[Ken Smith]

I say it depends on the Bass as much as the player. I have Weichs on one of my modern Italian Basses currently (G.Lombardi, 1976) and it bows kinda good. Too good to change the strings actually. I had Weich Spiros on my Bohemian bass as well (which I just sold) but that was not as deep a bass for bowing and it didn't sound quite as good but it worked. It was my Jazz instrument so I didn't care how well it bowed.

Years ago when there were ONLY Spiro Reds or Rope Core Blues (can you remember that far back?.. maybe there were solo Spiros, not sure when they came out), I used the Reds on my old Italian Bass for every thing I did. Sure, I tried some other strings and my Bass was also with me in hand the test bass/player for the Labella steels back in 1978 or so. Rotosound even made an Orchestra string that for me, was lighter tension but more of a Jaegar feel string than a Spiro. The Reds were in the middle for me so that was my go-to string that I used the most. If I had a bowing job, same bass same strings. Jazz gig, same same. So, with the Weichs out now, they make it easier to bow on lesser basses than the old classics whihc can sometimes work and sound as good with anything from pure rope to barbed wire. :eek:

One thing though I want to mention. If the strings are too flexible on your bass, when you pizz like in jazz and you start to dig in harder, you might find yourself chasing the beat as they respond slower when played hard. For that, Reds are better.

[Eddue Johnson]

That is one of the reason why I prefer higher tensioned strings. Weichs are a lot easier to play but on the faster uptempo tunes I sometimes hear myself behind the beat. It's really noticeable at times when the band is playing a song faster than it should be played.

I used to think, like many others, that Spiros were hard to bow because most bassits I knew played them pizz but not arco. Then I heard how well they sound when played properly. Then I knew the strings weren't the problem.

[Bin Hire]

The first time I played Weichs I had only played old strings on school basses. I don't know what they were.
When I first put my bow on some strings with the purple and red ends, on someone else's bass, I thought,
"This is easy!"

[Thomas Erickson]

I don't know why so many people say that spiros are bad for bowing; IMO they bow fine - just takes a little different approach is all...

Which isn't to say that spiros sound good on every bass though! :D

[Eddue Johnson]

There are many bassists, myself included, with very limited bowing skills. Sometimes it's just a matter of blaming the strings rather than admitting we haven't mastered the technique of playing arco, then move on to more forgiving strings.

[Ken Smith]

I don't know why so many people say that spiros are bad for bowing; IMO they bow fine - just takes a little different approach is all...

Which isn't to say that spiros sound good on every bass though! :D

Unless you have a very dark smooth sounding bass, usually old Italian or German 200 years or more and play very well with the Bow classically, bowing 'Spiros reds' instead of standard Orchestra bowing strings, the 'barbed wire' sound will not blend in with the rest of the bass section.

I have seen a few Extension Es in the Reds and occasionally a mixed set with the E and A in Reds but rarely do I see any level headed Orchestra player using a full set of Spiro Reds in USA. There are just so many better choices for bowing strings. Usually a player starts with the smoothest string he can find for bowing and then starts gradually brightening up the sound testing other strings till he gets what he needs to match the desired sound of the section.

Show me a professional Orchestra with all the basses bowing on Reds. Please!

[Bin Hire]

Unless you have a very dark smooth sounding bass, usually old Italian or German 200 years or more and play very well with the Bow classically, bowing 'Spiros reds' instead of standard Orchestra bowing strings, the 'barbed wire' sound will not blend in with the rest of the bass section.

I have seen a few Extension Es in the Reds and occasionally a mixed set with the E and A in Reds but rarely do I see any level headed Orchestra player using a full set of Spiro Reds in USA. There are just so many better choices for bowing strings. Usually a player starts with the smoothest string he can find for bowing and then starts gradually brightening up the sound testing other strings till he gets what he needs to match the desired sound of the section.

Show me a professional Orchestra with all the basses bowing on Reds. Please!
Ken, when you mention reds, are you talking about all the Spiros, or just the medium ones?
I humbly suggest that the bass is also bowed in other settings, not just in the orchestra.

[Ken Smith]

Ken, when you mention reds, are you talking about all the Spiros, or just the medium ones?
I humbly suggest that the bass is also bowed in other settings, not just in the orchestra.

Red's are the medium ones and back in my younger days, there was only one kind and maybe solos. Weichs were not out just yet and Stark Reds are more recent to me ears. Are there others that are Red at both ends?

Other settings? Sure, why not but the true test I thought was playing Orchestra music or Classical type solos.

Who wants to head scratchy bowing?:eek:

No one I know..:o

[Bin Hire]

Red's are the medium ones and back in my younger days, there was only one kind and maybe solos. Weichs were not out just yet and Stark Reds are more recent to me ears. Are there others that are Red at both ends?
I got confused because this thread was talking about Weichs. A thousand apologies.
Other settings? Sure, why not but the true test I thought was playing Orchestra music or Classical type solos.

Who wants to head scratchy bowing?:eek:

No one I know..:o
The Weichs don't scratch much and are quite bowable, but I agree that other strings are a better choice if one is going to bow.
Any bowing situation is a true test, in my humble opinion.

[Thomas Erickson]

Unless you have a very dark smooth sounding bass, usually old Italian or German 200 years or more and play very well with the Bow classically, bowing 'Spiros reds' instead of standard Orchestra bowing strings, the 'barbed wire' sound will not blend in with the rest of the bass section.

I have seen a few Extension Es in the Reds and occasionally a mixed set with the E and A in Reds but rarely do I see any level headed Orchestra player using a full set of Spiro Reds in USA. There are just so many better choices for bowing strings. Usually a player starts with the smoothest string he can find for bowing and then starts gradually brightening up the sound testing other strings till he gets what he needs to match the desired sound of the section.

Show me a professional Orchestra with all the basses bowing on Reds. Please!

I didn't say they were an ideal orchestra string, I only said that IMO they aren't that hard to bow. :rolleyes:

[Ken Smith]

I didn't say they were an ideal orchestra string, I only said that IMO they aren't that hard to bow. :rolleyes:

Hard to get a smooth bowing sound from unless you have the right bass and technique combined. So, hard to bow. I disagree, sorry.

[Terry McDougal]

But the Weichs are easy enough to bow. Which was where I started. I've just changed my strings around again lately. I settled on BCs because they are easier for quick bowing, but it was a close contest with the Weichs. As we say back home:
We're a' Jock Tamson's bairns!

[Ken Smith]

But the Weichs are easy enough to bow. Which was where I started. I've just changed my strings around again lately. I settled on BCs because they are easier for quick bowing, but it was a close contest with the Weichs. As we say back home:
We're a' Jock Tamson's bairns!

Yes, the Weichs are easier to Bow than the full reds no doubt. The BCs/BelCantos are far better for bowing as are the Pirastro Orchestra strings as well. Personally, I use and like Belcantos but favor the Pirastro orchestra strings for tone. The new Passione strings are actually fun to play whereas the Belcanto's work as well, just not as much fun.

[Terry McDougal]

Yes, the Weichs are easier to Bow than the full reds no doubt. The BCs/BelCantos are far better for bowing as are the Pirastro Orchestra strings as well. Personally, I use and like Belcantos but favor the Pirastro orchestra strings for tone. The new Passione strings are actually fun to play whereas the Belcanto's work as well, just not as much fun.
Are the Passione strings a bit stiffer? What are they like for pizz?

[Ken Smith]

Are the Passione strings a bit stiffer? What are they like for pizz?

I have only tried the regular gauge so far and they are so so soft under the fingers. They Bow so smooth and easy I just love them on all 4 basses I have used them on so far. As for Pizz, it's not a buzzy jazz type sound at all like the Spiros. Kind of like a mix of Belcantos and Flexocor 92s in a blender. More of a 92 type gauge/thickness and the tension similar or in between the Weich and regular Evahs. Not too loose unless you pound it with the bow and not tight at all. As a matter of fact, I raised my strings slightly on the two basses I have them on that I use most.

Not a Hybrid string if you want a plain jazz string. The sound is deep and shorter on the pizz with a true fundamental in tone.

For a bowing hybrid string, the Spiro weichs work well for some basses. Still, they might be a bot bright or thin sounding as compared to an orchestra bass with orchestra strings.

Guys n Gals, I want to point out that I am judging this from playing mainly older Orchestra grade basses. Some not as old but still, finer instruments in price and tone than any ply, hybrid or modern factory bass in general. If the bass you have is in that range then my findings might be different than yours. You must judge for yourself what works for your bass, your ears and your playing.

[Eddue Johnson]

Questions for the more experienced arco players:

I know spiros will stand out in an orchestra but what about for solo or maybe auditions, would spirocore weich be a good choice?

Second question:

Does the compromises that have to be made to be a good hybrid string prevent it from excelling at both arco and pizz? Or is it possible for a string to be excellant for both (not just adequate) jazz and orchestra?

[Bin Hire]

Number two is a tough question Euddie.
I must be honest and say that I have not found the answer.
I accept that we are all different. We all see beauty in different things.
Nothing stays the same. Could a perfect string actually exist?
Maybe it is our quest as musicians to take something that isn't perfect and to make it work on our terms?

[Terry McDougal]

"Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. "
George Bernard Shaw

Bin, I see your point.

[Bin Hire]

Yes and...
"There are very few human beings who receive the truth, complete and staggering, by instant illumination. Most of them acquire it fragment by fragment, on a small scale, by successive developments, cellularly, like a laborious mosaic. "
Anaïs Nin

[Ken Smith]

Yes and...
"There are very few human beings who receive the truth, complete and staggering, by instant illumination. Most of them acquire it fragment by fragment, on a small scale, by successive developments, cellularly, like a laborious mosaic. "
Anaïs Nin

Are we still talking about Spiro Weichs here or some other Planetary kind of stuff? :confused:

[Bin Hire]

Apologies Ken.
It just seemed like the quest for a perfect hybrid string was a bit philosophical. There can never be one right answer.
Pardon me if I am wrong.
The Universe, in my humble opinion, is all about positive and negative, black and white. All opposites exist together.
You bow or you pizz. You find the middle ground.

[Eddue Johnson]

Yes, point understood.

But since we are discussing hybrid strings, I think it might be asking too much for a string to excel at both jazz and orchestra settings as long as it can perform well at either. And considering that Spiros (weich included) are designed to be an orchestra string which is accepted by many to be the go to string for jazz it seem to qualify as a good hybrid string.

[Terry McDougal]

Yes, point understood.

But since we are discussing hybrid strings, I think it might be asking too much for a string to excel at both jazz and orchestra settings as long as it can perform well at either. And considering that Spiros (weich included) are designed to be an orchestra string which is accepted by many to be the go to string for jazz it seem to qualify as a good hybrid string.
My Man, it is a good hybrid string. It's just that, by definition, one application will probably be a bit stronger than the other.
I use Weichs for pizz and bowing, but no longer on my main bass. I accept that there is always a compromise and, as Ken would probably add, no two basses are really the same.
Well, since we're quoting, here's one from José Ortega y Gasset:
"There are people who so arrange their lives that they feed themselves only on side dishes."
Hey, use what works best for your purposes.

[Eddue Johnson]

Usually with the topic of hybrid strings comes the comparison to the top orchestra strings.

Did the weichs work well for you in an orchestra?

[Bin Hire]

Usually with the topic of hybrid strings comes the comparison to the top orchestra strings.

Did the weichs work well for you in an orchestra?
Do you want to play in an orchestra on a fairly regular basis or do you want to play other music? I don't want to play in an orchestra, but I want to play arco as much as I can. I guess that if orchestral playing was my passion, I'd check out what the symphony players are using. I suggest that you go to a local symphony concert and find out what strings they are using. Really that's the proof of the pudding.

[Eddue Johnson]

I Also want to play arco as well as pizz but not in an orchestra. I am curious to how others are using spiros rather than just rely on my own experience.

Maybe a better question might be:

Is the purpose of a hybrid string to be able to play well in an orchestra and a jazz band, just play arco and pizz?

Since I am not an orchestra bassist, it's either arco or pizz for me. I can't speak for orchestra players.

[Terry McDougal]

I Also want to play arco as well as pizz but not in an orchestra. I am curious to how others are using spiros rather than just rely on my own experience.

Maybe a better question might be:

Is the purpose of a hybrid string to be able to play well in an orchestra and a jazz band, just play arco and pizz?

Since I am not an orchestra bassist, it's either arco or pizz for me. I can't speak for orchestra players.
There are better bowing strings but, as a hybrid, Weichs bow well.

It's a braw bricht moonlit nicht the nicht, so play and enjoy.

[Eddue Johnson]

That's just what I'll do!


Thanks

[Terry McDougal]

That's just what I'll do!


Thanks
Just be warned that they take a few weeks to settle down for bowing, especially the D.
Noo jist haud on!

[Scott Pope]

OK, now that TI has two sets of Spiro Weichs, the 4/4 S42 set and the 3/4 3885 set, which set is being being referred to in the above posts? Thanks.

[Bin Hire]

OK, now that TI has two sets of Spiro Weichs, the 4/4 S42 set and the 3/4 3885 set, which set is being being referred to in the above posts? Thanks.
I don't remember the numbers, but wouldn't it be the 3/4 set?

[Scott Pope]

I just got a set of used Weichs for my CCB, the E & A from one source and the D & G from another. Total outlay: @$80 for a set in great condition. On closer inspection, I believe these are the S42 set, which will play just a tad lighter than the 3885 set on a 3/4 scale bass, according to TI's published tension specs.

No, I don't have substantial experience on DB, but oh, I like the way these feel and sound. I do have 35+ years "on the slab," and on tuba, so I'm used to laying down what needs to be laid down to support the ensemble.

Even though I tinker mechanically with many of my other instruments, and have worked on the setup on my CCB as much as a learning experience so I will know the ins and outs of how DB really works, I don't see myself getting into the string du jour race. But I didn't on tuba mouthpieces, either, and if you go on such forums as TubeNet, for tuba players it's mouthpieces as it is strings for DB players. I just contacted Matt Walters at Dillon Music, discussed my playing, and he recommended a mouthpiece. Vladimir adjusted the rim on the lathe to suit my embouchure, and I haven't looked back. I have a couple others for specific purposes, like outdoors or high tessitura, but one basic mouthpiece.

I only relay this seemingly non-related anecdote to emphasize the point that for a guy starting out, instead of spending way too much $$ on any aspect, whether strings, rosins, etc., time is usually better spent getting to know a professional, or rather the time for him to get to know you, so he/she can make a recommendation from experience that will save massive amounts of time and money in the long run.

[Bin Hire]

I just got a set of used Weichs for my CCB, the E & A from one source and the D & G from another. Total outlay: @$80 for a set in great condition. On closer inspection, I believe these are the S42 set, which will play just a tad lighter than the 3885 set on a 3/4 scale bass, according to TI's published tension specs.

No, I don't have substantial experience on DB, but oh, I like the way these feel and sound. I do have 35+ years "on the slab," and on tuba, so I'm used to laying down what needs to be laid down to support the ensemble.

Even though I tinker mechanically with many of my other instruments, and have worked on the setup on my CCB as much as a learning experience so I will know the ins and outs of how DB really works, I don't see myself getting into the string du jour race. But I didn't on tuba mouthpieces, either, and if you go on such forums as TubeNet, for tuba players it's mouthpieces as it is strings for DB players. I just contacted Matt Walters at Dillon Music, discussed my playing, and he recommended a mouthpiece. Vladimir adjusted the rim on the lathe to suit my embouchure, and I haven't looked back. I have a couple others for specific purposes, like outdoors or high tessitura, but one basic mouthpiece.

I only relay this seemingly non-related anecdote to emphasize the point that for a guy starting out, instead of spending way too much $$ on any aspect, whether strings, rosins, etc., time is usually better spent getting to know a professional, or rather the time for him to get to know you, so he/she can make a recommendation from experience that will save massive amounts of time and money in the long run.
Scott, this is very good advice. I played trumpet when I was younger and you are spot on about mouthpieces. Yes, strings are the same. They won't give you a shortcut past the hours of practice.

[Richard Prowse]

I've got Weichs back on my main bass and they're sounding great, both with the bow and pizz.