Bridge adjusters and sound for Arco

[Eduardo Barbosa]

Hi Guys,
I was wondering if anyone have ever noticed any difference in sound when installing aluminum bridge adjusters for arco playing only.
I am the only one that has adjusters in the section. The other 4 basses have solid bridges. One of my basses has the Kolstein bridge with the wooden adjusters. And it seems fine. My other bass has aluminum adjusters. I never cared because that is my "jazz" bass. But occasionally I'll take it to an Orchestra rehearsal and I've been wondering if the brightness that I am hearing is just more noticeable when playing arco.
Thank you.

[Ken Smith]

Hi Guys,
I was wondering if anyone have ever noticed any difference in sound when installing aluminum bridge adjusters for arco playing only.
I am the only one that has adjusters in the section. The other 4 basses have solid bridges. One of my basses has the Kolstein bridge with the wooden adjusters. And it seems fine. My other bass has aluminum adjusters. I never cared because that is my "jazz" bass. But occasionally I'll take it to an Orchestra rehearsal and I've been wondering if the brightness that I am hearing is just more noticeable when playing arco.
Thank you.

Bowing on your Jazz bass in an Orchestra? What kind of bass and how different is it from Your Orchestra bass? Also, and very important, what strings are on the Jazz bass and Orchestra bass?

I will bet you that the difference is the bass first and the Strings second that makes the difference. The Adjusters are way down the list in my book. For me, I like the adjusters that are the easiest to turn. I am not going to try various types in the same bridge and bass to see how the sound changes. You can't compare adjusters from one bass to another. It can only be compared with the exact same bass and bridge.

[Eduardo Barbosa]

The bass has no label, but I've had it for a long time and tried many different strings on it. Right now I have a set of Obligatos, and after a good warm up I feel that I can get a good sound out of it.
I guess I was wondering if someone who had installed aluminum adjusters on their bridge had noticed any differences.
I also would think that adjusters would be way down the list, but I thought I'd ask anyway, in case anyone had any other thoughts on it.
thank you.

[Thomas Erickson]

I've played a couple of basses with the same bridge before/after adjusters were added, but only briefly on either side. IMO, yes, it changes the sound, a little, but not for the better or worse - just different. And not enough to convince me it isn't just in my head, either. Like Ken, I think if you're going to put adjusters in a bridge, get the biggest easiest-to-grab ones you can find - they all mess up the look of a nice bridge anyway.

Personally, I don't get enough use out of adjusters to make them worthwhile. I think they look funny, and I'd rather just keep two bridges (if needed) - if the climate in a particular area changes enough over the seasons to really need adjusters, you probably need two soundposts anyway - might as well swap them both and clean your fingerboard at the same time... ;)

[Ruben E garcia]

Hi Eduardo:
I don’t know if this article helps to answer exactly your question, they compared different types of adjusters and the results are very interesting
http://iwk.mdw.ac.at/Forschung/english/dbb/dbb.htm

[Ken Smith]

Hi Eduardo:
I don’t know if this article helps to answer exactly your question, they compared different types of adjusters and the results are very interesting
http://iwk.mdw.ac.at/Forschung/english/dbb/dbb.htm

Unless they kept changing adjusters on the same exact bridge going from smallest to biggest and the exact bass, strings, player etc, there is no way to compare this.

[Nathan Parker]

That's what they did, Ken. They tried to keep the conditions as identical as possible in order to isolate the changes that occur with the different adjusters.

It's very interesting, but I take it all with a grain of salt. It probably makes a difference, but it's hard to say how much of a difference. It should be noted that I don't use adjusters because I don't like the way they sound.

[Eduardo Barbosa]

Hi Eduardo:
I don’t know if this article helps to answer exactly your question, they compared different types of adjusters and the results are very interesting
http://iwk.mdw.ac.at/Forschung/english/dbb/dbb.htm

That is a great article. Thank you!

I live in Colorado, and I think I am going to pay very close attention to how my bass behave when summer comes. I might wanna go for a solid bridge on my Orchestral bass.
Thank you.

[Ruben E garcia]

That's what they did, Ken. They tried to keep the conditions as identical as possible in order to isolate the changes that occur with the different adjusters.

It's very interesting, but I take it all with a grain of salt. It probably makes a difference, but it's hard to say how much of a difference. It should be noted that I don't use adjusters because I don't like the way they sound.

Correct....!

[Ruben E garcia]

For what I know, that is not a lot J or I may say for what I have read, solid aluminum adjusters made from one piece of metal are the overall best adjusters to have install in your bass…

[Ken Smith]

For what I know, that is not a lot J or I may say for what I have read, solid aluminum adjusters made from one piece of metal are the overall best adjusters to have install in your bass…

And why is that?

I prefer turning with some kind of grip on then rather than the sharp gnarled metal tearing up my fingers. The Walnut modified adjusters from the Shen guys (Paul S.) are my favorite overall. Next are the black Ebony/Plastic? ones that several Luthiers here use. I forget what they are called but Arnold uses them.

The smaller Aluminum or even brass wheeled ones are just to hard to turn most of the times.

[Anselm Hauke]

i like these: http://www.moser-klangwerkstatt.com/wEnglish/produkte/produkt1.shtml

[davidseidel]

I've always wondered about these - can you give some idea how good they are? Or what experience you have had with them? Thanks!

[Anselm Hauke]

i have the mosers on my main bass, the titanium version, and have also one in aluminium with an integrated full circle.

i like that you can adjust the feet seperatly. i like to experiment a lot with strings, incl. mixing different G/D and A/E (for example plain gut/spiro or oliv/evah). the independence of the bridge feet allow me to lift the G/D and lower the E/A.

plus: they are absolutely easy to turn under full pressure. they are made very precise, like a swiss watch movement

[Arnold Schnitzer]

It should be noted that I don't use adjusters because I don't like the way they sound.I have the exact opposite opinion.

[Nathan Parker]

It's funny how that works, Arnold. Different strokes for different folks, I spose. I reckon if I lived in a place with a harsher climate, I would change my tune. But, being in Seattle, I just don't need to adjust my bridge height all that often. I gots my strings where I like 'em, and there they stay.

And, without the adjusters I'm not constantly fiddling with my bass.

[Ruben E garcia]

And why is that?

I prefer turning with some kind of grip on then rather than the sharp gnarled metal tearing up my fingers. The Walnut modified adjusters from the Shen guys (Paul S.) are my favorite overall. Next are the black Ebony/Plastic? ones that several Luthiers here use. I forget what they are called but Arnold uses them.

The smaller Aluminum or even brass wheeled ones are just to hard to turn most of the times.
Well I shouldn't say that... I should say it like this: "base on the bible of bass repairs for those who don't have a mentor, Chuck Traeger" "he said that he only use one piece aluminum adjuster of 1/4" because they vibrate more easily, even 3/8" wooden ones are to wide to vibrate as well as 1/4" ones, and Steel and brass are so heavy as to act like a mute on the bridge" of course you have a different take on it, but I was saying about sound only... now you tell me :)

[Ken Smith]

Well I shouldn't say that... I should say it like this: "base on the bible of bass repairs for those who don't have a mentor, Chuck Traeger" "he said that he only use one piece aluminum adjuster of 1/4" because they vibrate more easily, even 3/8" wooden ones are to wide to vibrate as well as 1/4" ones, and Steel and brass are so heavy as to act like a mute on the bridge" of course you have a different take on it, but I was saying about sound only... now you tell me :)

Bass Bible? No, just the only current book available in that depth but some of what he would do would never be allowed on my basses.

He is not MY mentor now or in the future, ever. Just a guy that found time to write a book.

It's best that you and others know this difference.

So on a bass 6 feet tall, 1/4=2/8 is better than 3/8 to vibrate? So 1/8" difference is better on a 6ft tall bass over 2 feet wide and deep as 3 cellos. 1/8th inch?

Maybe I can sell you a bridge if you believe that! The Brooklyn Bridge maybe? Interested? I'll let you pay it off monthly..:D

[Adrian Levi]

[QUOTE=Ken Smith;21910
Maybe I can sell you a bridge if you believe that! The Brooklyn Bridge maybe? Interested? I'll let you pay it off monthly..:D[/QUOTE]

Ruben , don't listen to Ken there is NO way that a bridge of that size would work on any bass that I know of ,not to mention transport costs a custom made case etc etc.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Did you know the Brooklyn Bridge sits on White Pine caissons that were dug by hand into the mud under the East River, and that several men died of Caisson Disease because of all the time they spent under pressurized conditions? Caisson Disease is commonly called "The Bends". Just thought you folks might enjoy a tidbit of useless but interesting info. How long will those chunks of pine resist rot?

Speaking of chunks of pine, I've had experience with just about every type of bass bridge adjuster. I agree with Traeger in that 1/4 x 20 single-piece are my favorite. However, I am leary of any person who deems himself a "Master Luthier", and I'm leary of untested claims about what vibrates and what doesn't. Besides, would you want the adjuster to vibrate, or would you just want it to pass the vibrations through? Ooh, cue the Theramin...

[Ruben E garcia]

Did you know the Brooklyn Bridge sits on White Pine caissons that were dug by hand into the mud under the East River, and that several men died of Caisson Disease because of all the time they spent under pressurized conditions? Caisson Disease is commonly called "The Bends". Just thought you folks might enjoy a tidbit of useless but interesting info. How long will those chunks of pine resist rot?

Speaking of chunks of pine, I've had experience with just about every type of bass bridge adjuster. I agree with Traeger in that 1/4 x 20 single-piece are my favorite. However, I am leary of any person who deems himself a "Master Luthier", and I'm leary of untested claims about what vibrates and what doesn't. Besides, would you want the adjuster to vibrate, or would you just want it to pass the vibrations through? Ooh, cue the Theramin...


Hi Arnold so you prefer ¼”x20 Aluminum Adjusters…? Can you tell us why they work best for you?

My first idea would be, “that the most efficient way to transfer vibrations from the top of the bridge to the bridge foots is not actually use the same material (Maple)” and that won’t change that much the sound of the bass… but that’s not it… I wonder why?

[Ruben E garcia]

great story Arnold-got any more that we might "enjoy"

I don't know who you are referring to when you say "master luthier" - is it Chuck or are you referring to me- if you are referring to my comment I made the other day, then you take me way too seriously-

If there is one thing I take pride in it's my honestly about my work. Anyone who knows me well would know that I am kidding when I call myself a master luthier. I would hope that I would never join the arrogant in our luthier community. I once opened up a bass that Bob Swanson "built". Written on the upper part of the top block were the words: "built by the master"-signed Bob Swanson. I thought it was funny and maybe Bob was poking fun at himself, and as we all know, who have seen his hand, rightly so.

My hat is off to Chuck Thraeger(is he dead or alive?) or anyone who has written a book over 100 pages long. Those of us who have tried it(and in my effort, failed) know what a job it is to write a book and to get it published.

I agree that we should disagree with some of Chucks teachings and wonder why he left out some repairs altogether, but until I write a book that is better, I will respect his effort and show appreciation for his help when no one else was around.

A truly great artisan is not threatened by others and has the wisdom to know that by helping others they help themselves. Suggesting caution of another and trying to turn kidding into truth shows insecurity. I say some need to lighten up. We, who have the gift of passion for the double bass should be happy and thankful and enjoy the passion and each other, rather than to be so negative, threatened, and just downright discouraging. I love you man, but sometimes you pee in my coffee.

London bridge is falling down, falling down, falling down


wholmesbassviol@yahoo.com
www.holmesbassviol.com (http://www.holmesbassviol.com)
bassist, luthier
I dont think I want to drink coffee for the rest of the week now :D
Think he was talking about Chuck...... Peace and love...

[Nathan Parker]

Does anyone know when this study was conducted? It stated that most folks from the U.S. had adjusters and most folks from Europe didn't. I wonder if this still holds true today.

At any rate, an interesting thread. I guess what fascinates me is how most people seem to have a strong opinion about adjusters. Its like the carrot cake of the bass world. You love it or you hate it.

[Ruben E garcia]

Does anyone know when this study was conducted? It stated that most folks from the U.S. had adjusters and most folks from Europe didn't. I wonder if this still holds true today.

At any rate, an interesting thread. I guess what fascinates me is how most people seem to have a strong opinion about adjusters. Its like the carrot cake of the bass world. You love it or you hate it.
I dont know it doesnt say, but the graphics are dated Apr 1999

[Mike Mandelas]

Does anyone know when this study was conducted? It stated that most folks from the U.S. had adjusters and most folks from Europe didn't. I wonder if this still holds true today.

At any rate, an interesting thread. I guess what fascinates me is how most people seem to have a strong opinion about adjusters. Its like the carrot cake of the bass world. You love it or you hate it.

Yes, even today most of the DB players in Europe do not use adjusters. Some times i heard mocking comments when i played abroad about my bridge. From the other hand the importance of the adjusters in fluctuating humidity climates is paramount.
Mike

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Hi Arnold so you prefer ¼”x20 Aluminum Adjusters…? Can you tell us why they work best for you?

My first idea would be, “that the most efficient way to transfer vibrations from the top of the bridge to the bridge foots is not actually use the same material (Maple)” and that won’t change that much the sound of the bass… but that’s not it… I wonder why?
I don't have a theory, just practical experience. I like the light weight, ease of installing and adjusting, and the sound. Also, there is no joint in the adjuster to come apart. I prefer the adjusters made by old friend Mike Pecanic, which I buy in black.

Wayne, read my last post over. Concentrate on the context. And don't worry, urine is sterile, won't hurt you a bit...;)

[Thomas Erickson]

No disrespect Wayne, but if I were to have a real objection to adjusters (which I don't...) it would be in line with what I think you're saying.

It seems to me like any concern for tone aside, adjusters are used more often as a crutch to skirt the issue of less than optimal setup, and to some extent technique, rather than seasonal climate change. If the instrument is properly set up, then low "action" should be possible without buzzes, and higher strings still an option for the player who prefers it. The player shouldn't have to use the adjusters to constantly ride a line between fingerboard noise and uncomfortable/difficult playing; he should be able to use them to suit the string height to his technical ability and playing style.

[Thomas Erickson]

I tend to agree with you, Thomas, except for your main point.

:D

This is a little aside the original topic, but considering the topic, heheh... I'm curious - for the players who do experience a lot of seasonal change and use an adjustable bridge to compensate, how much overall height adjustment would you say you're using over the course of the year? Are you using a significant amount of the range of your adjusters? And also, do you change soundposts or just try to keep a "happy medium" fitted year-round?

[Ken Smith]

:D

This is a little aside the original topic, but considering the topic, heheh... I'm curious - for the players who do experience a lot of seasonal change and use an adjustable bridge to compensate, how much overall height adjustment would you say you're using over the course of the year? Are you using a significant amount of the range of your adjusters? And also, do you change soundposts or just try to keep a "happy medium" fitted year-round?

I want to add one more reason why adjusters are good to have in my opinion.

I have experienced within the same day or week going from one place to another feeling the strings higher or lower due to humidity/temperature changes. A slight turn of each adjuster, maybe evenly and maybe not, gave me the set-up I needed for that job.

Next, one day I might be doing a jazz gig. For Trip/Duo/Combo work with bass solos, I need lower action. For Big band or Singer/Show type back-up work, I want the strings higher.

For Classical Orchestra, I usually go as high as it is comfortable. If I have a solo or for chamber music, I might go a little lower.

All of these situations can happen within a given week or month for a full time professional freelance bassist. I was one of them in NY. My main bass then was an old Italian Flatback, now used in a Finnish Orchestra with a Rogeri label.

With some Roundbacks, I see move movement because the Back is not braced and more free to shift. Flatbacks shift too but the braces attempt to hold it stable. In the case of the bass changing between seasons they both move.

So, if you want your bass the way you want it day in and day out, use good adjusters and I have several kinds within my basses. Some turn easier and some not so easy. I am more concerned with that than what or how they effect the sound. I need the height I need. I can play louder or softer at a greater degree than any adjuster can affect a Bass's tone in my opinion.

Now as far as the Soundpost goes (aka SP), Roundbacks(RB) in 4-season areas experience more variation than Flatbacks(FB). Over time, the SP on a RB needs more attention than that of a FB.

If fitted in the summer or spring, either Back type, it might need to be shaved down a mm or so in the winter. If you can while you are having your RB bass restored, put some kind of center brace in there. This will help save your Back over time from splits in case of drastic changes or hard knocks. I demand this with most of my basses whenever possible. They even sound better afterwards and I think the move less afterwards. Somewhat between a FB and a regular RB. So, a RB with a center brace is a bit of a hybrid.

Just have the tightness of the Post checked in the early winter or if you suspect its too tight which you might hear in the change of the sound. Read all audible signs as something to look at and take nothing for granted with these BIG Violins!

One last thing about adjusters in my reference above to playing various styles from day to day. Imagine your Bass having a fixed Endpin. Some days you sit, some days you stand. Sometimes you stand straight and sometimes you slouch. Some music you want the bass higher and some lower. An adjustable endpin fixes that problem in the same way bridge adjusted do your string height.

I have a few fixed endpins but I also carry the adjustable rod with me as well.

Flexibility is important.

[Thomas Erickson]

I agree with Ken - it is important for the working bassist to remain flexible, yet keep his adjustable rod close at hand.


Hey Wayne - what was the guy's name - I'm sure you know who I mean - that left the violin wood in some public toilet with a sign asking people to (why am I typing this.......) on it... :D