William Tarr (b.2/21/1808 ~ d.7/10/1891)

[Ken Smith]

At this time I would like to highlight the Manchester maker William Tarr. Although we have talked about him on occasion I feel that now is a good time to put this maker in the spotlight.

I posted a few days ago on the English Basses general thread about 'a whopper landed'.
This Whopper is not a burger. It is a 4/4 bass by William Tarr from Manchester, 1929 #8. Tarr is recorded as producing 206 basses, mostly Gamba models. This bass has Violin corners and a flatback as with all W.Tarr basses that I know of.

It is written that at one music festival in Dublin where the Gentleman's Orchestra of Manchester performed, all of the 9 basses were made by Wlm. Tarr. This later became the Halle Orchestra. This and the other basses are known as the Halle Tarr basses. Full sized violin models.

In 1959 this bass was cut down a bit by maybe 2" or more in length and an inch or so in the width of the bouts. Recalling the measurements I took last night, the lower bout is currently 29" or so, the upper is 23"+ and the center almost 17 1/2". This was a HUGE bass but, with the flatback and the upper angle break, quite playable.

The Neck stand looks 100% original, out maybe 20mm. The joint is a wide slightly dovetail but mostly a hidden mortise with only maybe 1-2mm of difference between the the Top and the Neck as far as dovetail taper goes.

The Gears, original Manchester Tarr Gears, not unlike Baker's in construction but a different design. In fact, the Gears Arnold used for the copy of my Cornerless are actually Tarr copies but mis-named by the dealer that sells them. Once i get pics up in a few weeks, all of this will be clear.

Using a UV light, magnifier and flashlight, I cannot find a graft in the Neck/Pegbox joint. The Scroll is the real deal, Early Tarr. The FFs are about the most beautiful Norther English FFs I have ever seen. Long, wide, slightly slanted and beautifully cut. The Top is 'highly arched.

The sound, fasten your seat belts. This IS an Orchestra Bass. Deep Organ lows, smooth and sweet mids and LOUD.

I have seen one other Tarr like this but still full sized, not Cut. I do not know for sure is that one was a Halle bass but surely the same exact model, 4/4 violin flatback.

Both the Top and Back are made in 4 pieces. One main book-matched piece and narrower split and matched wings that are cut thru in the C bouts. The Corners are very subtle on these models.

This model is the King of the Northern English models.
Now that I have had this bass here a few days I have discovered a few things between the instrument itself and reading up on the maker W.Tarr.

First off, depending on which Violin Books you have or have read you might or might not get his correct dates. The books with the correct dates are all out of print now. These are books by George Hart, W.M. Morris and Jalovec. It seems there are some incorrect dates in Henley, Plowright and Harvey. One book has him making his first bass in 1834 but Hart has him listed as 'by' 1829 (at 21 yrs old). That is the supposed date of this bass.

In Elgar, a bass-only book he mentions that Tarr made both Viol and Violin models of which Elgar claimed to prefer the Viol. Maybe it was the size because of the two violin models I have seen now (1 pictured) and one other I have heard about, they are all full 4/4 model basses. The Viol model seems to be more of a full 3/4 or 7/8ths sized model as we call them today.

This particular bass I have here (#8 from 1829) is basically all original in its parts from what I can see. It was cut down about 52 years ago and the back shows purfling only in the c-bout area. On the top, the purfling was replaced in both bouts with similar looking material but not exact looking with a magnifier.

Now, looking inside the Back which is well oxidized in color and in fantastic shape as well I see that there are no cross braces in the bouts other then the center brace and the angle bend. Also, there are no scars or discolorations of this Back ever having braces there either. Maybe this accounts for the near mint condition of the Back.I do notice however that the center and outer flank joints have been re-glued at least once in some spots so maybe that's a sign of where the movement occurred. Also, this Bass has lived in the same UK climate all of its life up until 5 days ago when it was brought over to the States.

I know of a few other players that have Tarr basses in the Viol model and they seem well loved, all professional Classical/Orchestral players.

So, this is now the official place for discussions on Basses by Tarr who was also assisted at times by his sons Thomas, Joesph and Shelly. There were also at least two other makers of note that worked for Tarr and they include Cole and Briggs. Like in the case of Prescott being the most prolific Yankee bass maker, Tarr is the head of the Manchester bass makers as well.

Welcome to the official Tarr School on-line discussion thread.

[Ken Smith]

Here are a few pics we just took of the Bass but not the Pics we will use for the web page. Just a quick preview using our email camera skills.;)

[Adrian Juras]

Gorgeous bass!

[Anselm Hauke]

nice bass!

[Eduardo Barbosa]

WOW! I never seen a bass so big!
even the bigger ones I've seen don't come close to that one!
I wonder what it feels like playing that beast. Can't even imagine what it sounds like!

[Ken Smith]

It's a beast but very playable. If not for the lack of a C-Extension presently I would use it next week on my Concert. I will be bringing it up to Arnold shortly for some set-up tweaks and possible a C-Extension to make it Orchestra ready, American style.

[Anselm Hauke]

nice bass!

you can be happy that you did not get this one:
http://www.thomasmartin.co.uk/sale_william_tarr_double_bass.asp
:eek:

[Nathan Parker]

Man, these basses look amazing. I would love to give one a whirl one of these days.

So, my question is, why are they getting smaller? They all seem to have been cut down. What has changed since they were made that everyone reduces them in size?

[Anselm Hauke]

Man, these basses look amazing.

well, imho kens looks amazing, but toms............

[Ken Smith]

you can be happy that you did not get this one:
http://www.thomasmartin.co.uk/sale_william_tarr_double_bass.asp
:eek:

To my eye and from the basses I have seen from Tarr, Briggs and Cole (mostly in pictures) I would have to push this one into Briggs's corner more so than Tarr.

The Slant of the FFs' looks more Briggs and nothing like Tarr but slightly Cole but not. The Scroll is more like Briggs as well. The Gears are Tarr style but that is more than likely what was available then up there in Manchester.

I have seen this on Martin's restoration page as well and yes, I am glad it's not mine. I would not buy something like this across the pond unless it was to die for and affordable or under market, whatever that price would be!

[Nathan Parker]

well, imho kens looks amazing, but toms............

I like it. What it lacks in symmetry, it makes up for in character. Visually speaking, that is. I have no idea what it sounds like.

[Ken Smith]

Man, these basses look amazing. I would love to give one a whirl one of these days.

So, my question is, why are they getting smaller? They all seem to have been cut down. What has changed since they were made that everyone reduces them in size?

When 'Solo bass' became more popular it became evident that these bigger shouldered and full sized basses were just too big to get around on. Also, once you play an easier to manage 3/4-7/8, the idea of having a full sized and or full shouldered bass becomes less by the minute!

Playing the Orchestra music on a big bass is also not as much 'fun' these days as the demand is quite high. Economically, most your professionals shopping for a new bass to get 'that' orchestra gig wants the same bass to play both excerpts and solo on. Prices of these classics today also make it harder to own more than one expensive bass as well.

The most desirable basses today are those with 'the sound' and easy to play.

Many players that have played on 4/4 type basses for decades look forward to down sizing in measurements but not sound. Those players however that have landed a good steady job in a section are also trying to keep up with these powerful organ tones biggies so they sometimes in the aftermath, shop for that big monster that no one will mess with.

In the higher priced basses I have sold as many or more bigger basses than 3/4 or modified style 7/8ths over time. The bigger ones usually, but not always has that extra floor shaking quality that impresses all the players around you. This includes the podium, violins and brass as well. I have received complements from across the stage many times. Hardly ever though with a smaller bass in hand.

[Ken Smith]

I like it. What it lacks in symmetry, it makes up for in character. Visually speaking, that is. I have no idea what it sounds like.

It would be hard to describe unless we have both together heard the same basses that we can compare it to.

The sound is thick and organ like but sweet on top, not dry at all. It also sounds old and relaxed. My Panormo is similar but not as 'wet' in the sound. Both are silky though but describing sound is like describing taste. Not so easy as we all perceive things individually. The Tarr to my ears has more of a melodic Italian tone across the full range of the bass. The Panormo is maybe more floor shaking and sweeter on top but dryer in the middle.

The flat back of the Tarr along with its slightly reduced size feels to me easier to play and get around than the Panormo mainly because I am more of a 3/4-7/8ths player than a 4/4 huger. The slightly wider bouts don't seem to be a problem either considering its size as compared to the 4/4 Panormo which was also slightly reduced at the Block and in its length.

Still, if left with only one bass to play, I would welcome either the Panormo or Tarr with open arms. Opened a bit wider than usual..lol ;)

[Ken Smith]

I just received the Tailpiece that was taken off the Tarr when converted back to 4-string from the previous 5-string modification. There is an extra smaller hold drilled for the A string that is just under the Brass inlay.

There is a lower brass circle with mother of pearl inlay at the bottom still intact plus an empty cutout from a missing crest at the top plus a center inlay partially filled in. I would love to know what was in there. Always a mystery..;)

[Matthew Tucker]

Interesting about the lack of internal back braces. In a Lott bass I have been studying here, the cross braces (apart from the centre brace) are only about 1cm tall and wide. The back's in reasonable condition. Perhaps cross bracing isn't as necessary as we think? Certainly won't keep a centre seam together if it wants to open up. When i think about it, the main reason i'm putting braces in my current build is to give the flat back a bit of convex "shape".

[Ken Smith]

Interesting about the lack of internal back braces. In a Lott bass I have been studying here, the cross braces (apart from the centre brace) are only about 1cm tall and wide. The back's in reasonable condition. Perhaps cross bracing isn't as necessary as we think? Certainly won't keep a centre seam together if it wants to open up. When i think about it, the main reason i'm putting braces in my current build is to give the flat back a bit of convex "shape".

Let the Back open if it needs. If over braced and the center can't open, something else will open or split.

Can we see that Lott? Are those the original braces in there?

[Matthew Tucker]

Not great photos I'm afraid:

Lott:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5062/5681034697_df5c9f12df.jpg

bracing at the break:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5230/5681027565_bd027a7f9c.jpg

And in the lower bout. Looks original to me, but I didn't open up the bass to look closely.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5188/5681027147_009347825c.jpg

Perhaps the bracing is a little bigger than 1cm but I was surprised when I looked inside how insubstantial it all looked.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5222/5681026751_c9cae2d79e.jpg

Whitehead extension:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5103/5681592164_28f127687e.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5021/5681591732_4872128e40.jpg

[Ken Smith]

Back on the Tarr subject, I just brought it home last night from Arnold's with its new chromatic C-Extension, beautifully made and mounted if I may add. With the Season just about over, I might try it on one of the summer concerts and see how I get around it. I just have to do a few personal tweaks with the set-up, as usual.;)

As soon as I can get my son Mike to take some pics and get the page up, I will fill in its data and have it posted on line. This particular Tarr is a piece of British history.

[Ken Smith]

In doing the C-Extension the Plates and Gears were removed from the Bass. The Plates have fused housings for the Gear shafts to slide in to. One Gear might be an old replacement but the one with the milled shaft was done to put a fifth gear around the shaft inside the pegbox as the bass was used as a 5-sting for quite some time and then recently converted back to 4-string.

My Panormo School was also a 5er at one point modified with a 5th gear at the TP and the ball end of the string anchored in the pegbox. I have also seen two old 3-string basses modified to 4-strings that way as well. One was a Prescott and one a beautiful Goffriller that I tried to buy when I was younger. Both those bass had their original 3-gears in the pegbox. The Panormo still retains its original plates and the 3 original Baker gears, with a 4th one added later, not quite matching 100% but close enough. The original center hole in the plates from its 3-string days is still visible under the gears.

I just thought it would be interesting for historical purposes to show that while Baker gears (and a few others in his time) flourished in London, the Manchester school up north headed by Tarr had their own metal works of art. Side by side, the Tarr gears win as the most beautiful I have seen combined with their plates.

Note: Pictures courtesy of Arnold Schnitzer.

[Ken Smith]

Here is the new Page on the Tarr. The pics were done against a wall and not the usual mahogany door and with flash. The pics came out quite dark but the bass is dark as well. We might in the near future re-take the pics in attempt to get some more light on them.
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/tarr/

[Eric Hochberg]

I like your original bass display background MUCH better. It's a signature look and the pics come off far more professionally. In any case, beautiful basses, as always. :)

[Ken Smith]

When I got the Bass I was given pictures of some facsimile Labels that were lost in a previous restoration but photographed. I was told that the 2 of the 1829 was not all that clear but they would go with it as No. 8 would be very early in his making. I thought they meant the other label that the facsimile replaced prior to the restoration.

I took the group of the repairs and makers facsimile labels and made one label from that picture to put inside the Bass so the history doesn't get lost and glued it to the center Back brace.

When I was about to remove my light from the opposite F-hole I took one last look inside and then.. Holy Sxxt..

The real original inscription in William Tarr's old English calligraphy writing in heavy ink was there. Around the inscription was a faint line as if tape was placed over it for the last Back Restoration or when the Bass was cut down 1959.

So, this Tarr IS labeled, handwritten into wood of the upper Back just below the angle bend on the bass side opposite the Bass Bar of the Top.

This is what they were talking about as far as the trouble in reading some of the numbers.

Why can't those Brit's speak clear English? :(

Wait, that IS English, lol :D

I Speak American..:eek: .. ;) .. :cool:

[Anselm Hauke]

wow, can you make a picture?

[Matthew Tucker]

I like your original bass display background MUCH better. It's a signature look and the pics come off far more professionally. In any case, beautiful basses, as always. :)

The white background will cause all basses to look darker, as the camera shutter will try to compensate for the white background.

[Scott Pope]

Why can't those Brit's speak clear English? :(

Wait, that IS English, lol :D

I Speak American..:eek: .. ;) .. :cool:Ah, yes: two great countries separated by a common language. I wish I could have been there to see your reaction when you discovered the signature!

[Ken Smith]

wow, can you make a picture?

I will try but it's a bit up into the bass.

[Ken Smith]

The white background will cause all basses to look darker, as the camera shutter will try to compensate for the white background.

Yes, I totally agree but it's a bit of a fight with my son. I am happy with the 'door' in all of my pics.

Maybe I can sell that door on Ebay some day..:D

[Ken Smith]

Ah, yes: two great countries separated by a common language. I wish I could have been there to see your reaction when you discovered the signature!

My face, body language and and my excitement. I was a good moment in time for me.

[Ken Smith]

I just received the Tailpiece that was taken off the Tarr when converted back to 4-string from the previous 5-string modification. There is an extra smaller hold drilled for the A string that is just under the Brass inlay.

There is a lower brass circle with mother of pearl inlay at the bottom still intact plus an empty cutout from a missing crest at the top plus a center inlay partially filled in. I would love to know what was in there. Always a mystery..;)

I have decided to repair and re-inlay the original Tailpiece and put it back on the Tarr where it belongs. We will use regular Mother of Pearl to fill the 2 emblem cut outs that are now empty. We have no idea what was in there originally because I have never seen another original Tarr tailpiece but if so, not from that early period.

[Eric Swanson]

Nice idea. Thanks for sharing your process...it is quite interesting to watch it all unfold.

[Ken Smith]

Ok, we just published the Page and lightened up the pics a bit. Enjoy..

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/high.html

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/tarr/

[Brian Gencarelli]

This bass sounds like a whole section by itself. I still can't get over how deep it sounds!

Nice pics!
Brian

[Ken Smith]

This bass sounds like a whole section by itself. I still can't get over how deep it sounds!

Nice pics!
Brian

Yup, it's a floor shaker. Also, easier to get around than a few other basses I have that are actually smaller in size and with a 41 1/2" string length, it's easy on the left hand as well.

[Ken Smith]

Tonight, I took out the Tarr and played it in a Concert, cold! Cold, meaning I did 2 rehearsals with the Hart and one with the Uebel (to test it out) and after the dress rehearsal last night, decided to take the Tarr and just wing it on stage. We did this program; http://www.buckscountysymphony.org/events.php?2011-FALL-CONCERT-29

The Violin soloist played on a Strad. What can I do, bring less than my best on the 8th stand?:confused:

The Tarr by the way was shaking the stage and was easily heard over the other 7 basses in the loudest FFF sections. On some of the PPP parts, I couldn't play soft enough. The Bass was ultra smooth and very thick sounding as well as clear as a bell. About the best in tone and power I have heard in a long time. It's BIG, but manageable, more than you would think by looking at it! :cool:

This was by the way the first time the Tarr was ever played live in USA, ever, since its birth in 1829. Maybe it worked out so good because it already knows English.. ;)

[Eric Swanson]

Sounds like quite an evening.

Very beautiful bass. I'd love to hear this one...

[Chris Shaw]

Your Tarr does indeed look wonderful Ken and I'm sure it sounds equally great. It makes me wonder, though, about the nationality of basses and their uses in different countries. Most professionals here in the UK prefer English basses and if you don't have one, it can be very difficult getting work as other instruments tend not to blend into the section as well. You say that your Tarr could be heard above the rest of your bass section. Isn't this a bit of a problem rather than an advantage?

[Ken Smith]

Your Tarr does indeed look wonderful Ken and I'm sure it sounds equally great. It makes me wonder, though, about the nationality of basses and their uses in different countries. Most professionals here in the UK prefer English basses and if you don't have one, it can be very difficult getting work as other instruments tend not to blend into the section as well. You say that your Tarr could be heard above the rest of your bass section. Isn't this a bit of a problem rather than an advantage?

Well, depending on how loud I played I could either blend or play over them. There was one other large old Bass, Fussen/German school to my eye and two early 20th century German/Czech school basses in the section. The others were of lesser quality and sound. If this had been a full professional section with better basses I would have blended in just fine but it wasn't. I was free and the Orchestra is close by so I basically just sat-in to play in a large section.

I don't see it as a advantage or a problem but rather a test run of what the bass could do. It was the first time the bass was ever played in USA in the few months it's been here. With the smooth low end depth-spread and clear deep bell tone mids I felt the bass could be played from pppp to ffff without much effort at all. One of the guys trying it on stage mentioned how easy the power came out when playing it.

Also, aren't there a few good Italians and old German basses in use in the UK? How about Hawkes basses? Aren't most of them German made on a modified English Panormo pattern?

Yes, English basses are great section basses but, if you are the only one with a $100k class bass can't you just enjoy the thunder? :cool:

[Chris Shaw]

Get your point Ken. As for other basses used in the UK - Hawkes basses are certainly expensive now, but still not really regarded as suitable for the best professional sections. Hardly any German basses are played professionally in the UK but, of course, there are some amazing old Italian instruments in use. Then it comes back to who actually made these instruments. I was playing with a guy last year who had a beautiful old Italian bass. I asked him if he knew who made it to which he replied "No, but I'll make up a name if I ever sell it". I'm sure this is the case with most of the Italians! The number of "Amati" basses seems to increase daily.

[Ken Smith]

Get your point Ken. As for other basses used in the UK - Hawkes basses are certainly expensive now, but still not really regarded as suitable for the best professional sections. Hardly any German basses are played professionally in the UK but, of course, there are some amazing old Italian instruments in use. Then it comes back to who actually made these instruments. I was playing with a guy last year who had a beautiful old Italian bass. I asked him if he knew who made it to which he replied "No, but I'll make up a name if I ever sell it". I'm sure this is the case with most of the Italians! The number of "Amati" basses seems to increase daily.

"Number of Amati's", lol. I think that when they made Cellos back then, it was referred to as the basses. We play the Double basses, Cellists play the regular basses. I have a Hart bass that looks like a Maggini somewhat. Thwaites has a bass they call 'the old lady' a beautiful old British London school bass that was called a Maggini for decades if not longer. Stuart Knussen, a former London principal player bought and played a Maggini for 30 years. When he went to sell it they told him it was a William Valentine (Hart) bass, much like my 'John Hart' Maggini 'model' according to his son Ken. So, I think we find more British Maggini's mistaken for Italians than we do Amati's.

[Eric Swanson]

Just can't stop looking at this bass. It is just so beautiful...

[Ken Smith]

Just can't stop looking at this bass. It is just so beautiful...

Come by and play it.