Jargar's, again..

[Ken Smith]

Hi, I have discussed these strings in the past and recently bought a set to try on one of the basses when I get the chance. I just finished putting them on my Hart bass which had some old Belcanto's on it. As I remember, the Jargar strings (http://www.jargar-strings.com/) have heavier bottom strings as compared to some other brands, especially the E's. The Belcanto E/C was about .110 and the Jargar (medium/blue) E/C measured about .115. I had to re-notch my top nut on the extension to widen and lower it about a mm.

They Bow smooth and sound rich. When I first played the Passione's I may have commented that they reminded me of the Jargar's smoothness. The Gauges however are quite a bit beefier. I have used only the Medium and Heavy Jargars. I think I should also try the lighter/green silked set as well one of these days. Almost every brand I have tried, the E/C is usually a bit beefier in gauge than the regular non-extension E string.

I have 2 more rehearsals this week and then a concert so I think I will bring the Hart with this new set of Jargars on it. It's all Opera excerpts and some overtures. Last night was the first rehearsal and I brought my Neuner bass which I used Sunday as well on a different Orchestra gig. The Neuner has Flexocor 92 Starks on it. The bass itself is punchy, loud and deep. Almost too non-romantic for this Opera stuff. I am sure I can tame the Neuner with a different string but with some much booommm, pluummee type pizz work, I need more of that wide spread 'butterball' sound and less German edge.

Do any of you guys have experience with Jargars? Any of the gauges, with or without extensions? Your comments are welcomed.

[Joshua phelps]

What does a set of these go for?

[Joshua phelps]

Also, what is your favorite rosin ken?

[Ken Smith]

What does a set of these go for?

I will have to look it up but, they are less expensive than most strings. On some basses, they will sound a bit 'thuddy' and with little sustain if any for pizz. On other basses, they might just be the perfect match. On my Hart, they are smooth on the top and strong on the bottom, especially the E string. This is an Orchestral string mainly.

Also, what is your favorite rosin ken?

For the most part I have been using Kolstein all weather rosin for a several years now. I have also used the new Oak as well as Nyman's Swedish rosin. Those 3 seem to work very similar. When I was selling a lot of the KSB bows I would offer a cake of Kolstein's with it because I was able to get them fairly cheap by the dozen from a wholesaler. Now I have a few cakes of Nymen's in the cabinet to use when the Kolstein runs out as I have one cake at home for practice and one in my bag for gigs. In the shop I have a small cake of Nymen's left that I picked up at the ISB in 2009. It was left on my Bow table and never claimed. I think it works as good as the Kolstein's and I don't have to buy a dozen or two to get a good price on them.

[Joshua phelps]

I like oak rosin as well. I want to try new strings before I buy a new set, pretty nerve racking really. I have spirocores on now & am pretty satisfied but am always wondering if there are better strings. Arco is all I play (unless I'm doing pizz to learn a piece with difficult bowing to start).

[Ken Smith]

I like oak rosin as well. I want to try new strings before I buy a new set, pretty nerve racking really. I have spirocores on now & am pretty satisfied but am always wondering if there are better strings. Arco is all I play (unless I'm doing pizz to learn a piece with difficult bowing to start).

You play mainly with bow and use Spiros? What is it you look for in your sound?

In USA, very few players use Spirocore for Orchestra. Some use the Solo set for solo/orchestra tuning back and forth. The norm is Flexocors and Belcantos. Other Pirastro brands and some other bowing strings. When you can, go see a professional orchestra and try to see which sets the bass players are using. Also note how the play and dig in as well with the bow when the music requires. A string is usually matched to a bass for a player. I used Spiros many years ago but on a very old smooth deep dark Italian bass. One a brighter bass, it woukd just sound too harsh with the bow in comparison.

[Joshua phelps]

Yeah I know spirocores are a little weird for arco & are loved by jazz players but they are what came on my current Shen bass. That being said they bow better than helicore orchestra strings. I might just try to get a different set of thomastiks more suited for orchestra playing this next time.

[Ken Smith]

Yeah I know spirocores are a little weird for arco & are loved by jazz players but they are what came on my current Shen bass. That being said they bow better than helicore orchestra strings. I might just try to get a different set of thomastiks more suited for orchestra playing this next time.

Then I suggest the Belcanto's which bow great and pizz fairly well on most basses. One of my favorite strings now.

[Richard Prowse]

Then I suggest the Belcanto's which bow great and pizz fairly well on most basses. One of my favorite strings now.
Hi Ken and Joshua,
Funnily enough I'm using Spiros (Weichs) on my main bass and doing lots of bowing. They really do sound great. I've got old Bel Canti on my other bass, but I'm about to replace them with EP Weichs.
I started my main bass (when I acquired it) with EPs (orchestral) and Bel Canti, but the spiros give a lovely sound on that bass. I recently played some duets with a guy who was using EP Weichs and my bowing sound seemed at least as good as his. I know I'm not playing in an orchestra, but those Spiros are staying on that bass, and I'll be bowing them a lot. I guess I've gone for EP Weichs on the other bass because I haven't got time for a set of Spiros to settle - I've got a concert approaching fast and my main bass goes through periods of having creaking problems. So the other bass has to be ready, like a first five eight in the All Blacks.
Well, I assume you guys are following the rugby world cup and know that Dan Carter is out with a groin injury.

[Joshua phelps]

Hey Richard nice to meet you. I defiantly agree, with the right bass,bow,rosin & technique they sound and bow pretty well. I'm gonna take kens advice for my next set & see if they have more of a pure arco sound.

[Ken Smith]

Hey Richard nice to meet you. I defiantly agree, with the right bass,bow,rosin & technique they sound and bow pretty well. I'm gonna take kens advice for my next set & see if they have more of a pure arco sound.

There is no IF about it concerning Belcantos PURE smooth Arco sound. The majority of the high end professionally used Orchestra basses in use I am willing to speculate either have one of the Pirastro bowing sets on the or Belcantos. When Belcantos came out, it hit the Orchestra bass world like a major storm. Probably the biggest switch from other strings since people gave up Guts for Steels. Many have gone back to Pirastros but not all. At the last ISB bass making competition all but two of the basses had Belcantos. One of the Judges told one of the two makers that he should have put Balcantos on the bass. Maybe for testing comparisons but that's what he said. All the other builders put on Belcantos independently of each other. This is because of the great demand by professional orchestral bassists requesting them.

Some basses work better with other strings and you never know until you try them all in one way or another. Also, not all bassists play the same or want the same sound so that's another reason why there are so many types of strings used for the same type of job.

[Joshua phelps]

I really want to get these strings ASAP.

[Eduardo Barbosa]

You play mainly with bow and use Spiros? What is it you look for in your sound?

In USA, very few players use Spirocore for Orchestra. Some use the Solo set for solo/orchestra tuning back and forth. The norm is Flexocors and Belcantos. Other Pirastro brands and some other bowing strings. When you can, go see a professional orchestra and try to see which sets the bass players are using. Also note how the play and dig in as well with the bow when the music requires. A string is usually matched to a bass for a player. I used Spiros many years ago but on a very old smooth deep dark Italian bass. One a brighter bass, it woukd just sound too harsh with the bow in comparison.


OT,
A little while back I acquired a Upton Hawkes and after trying EP's regular and lights, Obligatos, Helicores hybrids and orchestra, and Zyex, I ended up settling on Spiros medium gauge for Orchestra. Go figure?!... They sound great on that bass for whatever strange reason.
BTW, I did get them on ebay for $27! the seller said they were anywhere between 6 to 10 years old. still in great shape, but they've lost some of the nasal qualities and harshness.
Also, I must say that every once in a while I get an email from an orchestra player asking if I have an old set of spiros, being that they know I play mainly jazz!

[Ken Smith]

OT,
A little while back I acquired a Upton Hawkes and after trying EP's regular and lights, Obligatos, Helicores hybrids and orchestra, and Zyex, I ended up settling on Spiros medium gauge for Orchestra. Go figure?!... They sound great on that bass for whatever strange reason.
BTW, I did get them on ebay for $27! the seller said they were anywhere between 6 to 10 years old. still in great shape, but they've lost some of the nasal qualities and harshness.
Also, I must say that every once in a while I get an email from an orchestra player asking if I have an old set of spiros, being that they know I play mainly jazz!

Ok, so drifting off topic here but good info..

Years and years ago talking to another bassist he tells me he puts on new Spiros every 6 months (this was back in the 70s). I said "really, why?" He replied, "because I like that fresh sound", or something to that effect. My thoughts then (any maybe now IF the formula is exactly the same as then) was that in 6 months they are just starting to break in for me. Maybe I should of just used his old strings. I have had 20 year old Spiros on some basses and they work fairly good on some basses. Buy a new set and OUCH, turn off the chain saw....:eek: ... ;)

[Richard Prowse]

Ok, so drifting off topic here but good info..

Years and years ago talking to another bassist he tells me he puts on new Spiros every 6 months (this was back in the 70s). I said "really, why?" He replied, "because I like that fresh sound", or something to that effect. My thoughts then (any maybe now IF the formula is exactly the same as then) was that in 6 months they are just starting to break in for me. Maybe I should of just used his old strings. I have had 20 year old Spiros on some basses and they work fairly good on some basses. Buy a new set and OUCH, turn off the chain saw....:eek: ... ;)
Main bass creaking again, so had to play the Bel Canti today. They sound fine. I have to do a recording (pizz) on Friday - if the EP Weichs haven't arrived, I'm sure the BC will be fine. Really, for me, I guess that all these strings have their own strengths. I like them all and, if only one was available, I'd get by fine.
Sorry, back to topic.

[Joshua phelps]

On a side note I wanted to ask you all since I don't have a reputable Luthier anywhere near me how do you guys swap your strings? Is it ok to do them one at a time? If I do it that way do I risk cracking my top or having to fool with my sound post?

[Richard Prowse]

On a side note I wanted to ask you all since I don't have a reputable Luthier anywhere near me how do you guys swap your strings? Is it ok to do them one at a time? If I do it that way do I risk cracking my top or having to fool with my sound post?
Josh, this is just what I do and many here will have more expert advice. I do things in twos: G & D then E & A. I change the G, loosening the D a bit if I have to to get the G string wound nicely. Then I tighten it and do the D. Again, I can loosen the G a bit if it's in the way. Once they're both tightened I do the same for the E & A.
If I'm putting on Jargars, then the thread gets back on topic. (A little joke there Josh).

[Bin Hire]

Josh, this is just what I do and many here will have more expert advice. I do things in twos: G & D then E & A. I change the G, loosening the D a bit if I have to to get the G string wound nicely. Then I tighten it and do the D. Again, I can loosen the G a bit if it's in the way. Once they're both tightened I do the same for the E & A.
If I'm putting on Jargars, then the thread gets back on topic. (A little joke there Josh).
Hi Joshua, that's pretty much how I change strings too. Richard, nice little joke.

[Joshua phelps]

Some of the best discussions come by way of Segway :)

[Bin Hire]

Seg what? Seg what?

[Scott Pope]

Um, I think he meant "seque," or in transition from one topic to another.

[Ken Smith]

I put a new set of the medium/blue Jargars on my Uebe (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/uebel/)l the other night and I think this is the best this bass has sounded with the Bow. I even tuned it down to Eb and then Db to see if I can take it to a concert next week. We will have 8 basses in the section and I wont know till next rehearsal in a few days how tight the stage will be. My Hart (with Jargars) which I used in the Orchestra last week (my first time playing with them) is only an inch wider overall. To avoid getting the Hart bumped, I might just bring the Uebel and tune down and back up as I need. Wont be the first time I've done that but since having a C-extension on most or my basses I rarely use a bass without one in Orchestra.

I actually like how the low notes sound tuned down on the Uebel. The thicker E works great for this but the Uebel is a D-neck and the Hart is an Eb which for me works better for the way I play and cross strings on the D and A strings on some passages. I can reach the upper notes on the G better as well and the Heel is the smallest of all my basses so works best for the transition to the upper notes as well.

Today I have another rehearsal, different Orchestra (playing in 3 of them now) and we are doing Beethoven 7. I looked at some of the music and see I need the extension for this as well. Later I have to play Beeth. 2nd in my main orch. and then the 9th in the new orch. I just started in. It seems I can't get away from the C-extension but if I did, the Uebel tuned down would sound as good as most basses with Extensions I think with these Jargars.

With all that music to work on, I still have to work in the shop till at least 5pm daily as a minimum.

[Ken Smith]

On a side note I wanted to ask you all since I don't have a reputable Luthier anywhere near me how do you guys swap your strings? Is it ok to do them one at a time? If I do it that way do I risk cracking my top or having to fool with my sound post?

I take one off and put one on. The strings will be on the bass for a long long time so take your time and do it carefully. Don't rush. There is no benefit in that. Just one at a time works fine.

I also gently wipe the string after tuning it and then bow on it a little to hear how they compare after each string is on. With one new one on and 3 old or 3 new and one old or, 2 and 2, you can see how they compare quite easily. I kind of enjoy that part of putting a new string type on.

[Richard Prowse]

I take one off and put one on. The strings will be on the bass for a long long time so take your time and do it carefully. Don't rush. There is no benefit in that. Just one at a time works fine.

I also gently wipe the string after tuning it and then bow on it a little to hear how they compare after each string is on. With one new one on and 3 old or 3 new and one old or, 2 and 2, you can see how they compare quite easily. I kind of enjoy that part of putting a new string type on.
Yeah, you're right, that is a nice way to do it. I've just put new EP Weichs on my bass. They feel slightly thicker that the spiros - a nice feeling. I think they'll be fun.

[Ken Smith]

Tonight I put a set of Jargar Dolce/green silked strings that I got last year but haven't had the need to try them. I took off the Kaplans from the Hart and replaced them one string at a time. Each string going on felt like the bass was moving closer to the sound I like most. These are lighter in gauge than the medium/blue Jargar set but do not feel or sound thin like other solo sets do. I will have the Summer to play on them and decide if they stay on for the season starting in the fall.

[Ken Smith]

Tonight I put a set of Jargar Dolce/green silked strings that I got last year but haven't had the need to try them. I took off the Kaplans from the Hart and replaced them one string at a time. Each string going on felt like the bass was moving closer to the sound I like most. These are lighter in gauge than the medium/blue Jargar set but do not feel or sound thin like other solo sets do. I will have the Summer to play on them and decide if they stay on for the season starting in the fall.

Tonight I pulled out that Dolce set of Jargars and put them on my Panormo school bass just a few hours after putting on the new Flex Dlx set which were just too bright for my ears on that bass.

The Jargars have that darker smooth sound that bow like butter. They are just a bot softer in volume but the other qualities make up for that. This is the 3rd time (that I remember!) putting this same set on a bass. I have a concert coming up in a few weeks and I need a bass with a C-extension and I have to play into the upper register for a few notes on one of the pieces in spots. My Hart would be ideal but it's in the shop getting some work done so I have to pick another bass.

This next concert is only 2 basses and we have to be smooth together on those upper notes. I feel the Jargars are my best bet with the Panormo school bass. It's big, but it's playable. I will know after the first rehearsal if I need to change basses. I miss the Hart but I can play 'Papa Bear', our nick name for the 4/4 Panormo school bass. :cool:

[Dave Whitla]

Have you had a chance to compare Jargar to Passione? From the sound of it, they both have a beautiful sound, but slightly less volume/power than other strings. On my bass I really loved the sound of Passiones, but Bel Cantos sound almost as nice (but different) with much better projection. Your description of the Jargars makes me curious, but then again trying strings is such a can of worms...

[Ken Smith]

Have you had a chance to compare Jargar to Passione? From the sound of it, they both have a beautiful sound, but slightly less volume/power than other strings. On my bass I really loved the sound of Passiones, but Bel Cantos sound almost as nice (but different) with much better projection. Your description of the Jargars makes me curious, but then again trying strings is such a can of worms...

On the Jargar to Passione question, I haven't done and special tests between them but I do feel they are different. The Jargars come in 3 gauges and in each gauge, the E string seems too big to me. Also, they are not that fat apart in size either between the 3 sets.

This is what the emailed me back when I inquired about the gauges from the heaviest to lightest;

G – 1,33 – 1,31 – 1,26
D - 1,64 – 1,64 – 1,60
A – 2,03 – 2,02 – 1,98
E - 2,80 - 2,79 – 2,76
Ext.2,96 – 2,95 – 2,85


Above #s are in millimeters I believe. For inches, divide by 2.54. Rounded to 3 digits;



G- .052" - .051" - .049"
D- .064" - .064" - .063"
A- .080" - .079" - .078"
E- .110" - .109" - .108"

XE-.117" - .116" - .112"

For me, I prefer my Es much thinner than listed above and they always feel heavy to me within each set. I might try to make a set with the Forte/heavy 3-strings and the Dolce/light E and see how that works but honestly, I have used them very little outside of here in the office so I am not totally sure.

The Passiones are better balanced but I feel the E is light on that set rather then heavy. I have tried the regular set with the Stark E if I felt the need to have the E stronger on that particular bass.

Right now if I had to run out and do a gig and I had to choose only between Jargars and Passiones, I would go with the Passiones and either use the Stark E or the Stark set unless the bass was tight and then the regular set.

For tone, the Jargars are sweeter I think regardless. Just not balanced for me as well and softer sound matching its softer feel.

It is a tough choice.

[Dave Whitla]

I felt the same about the Passione long E. Thinking about it, on most Pirastro strings I have used in the past the E has not been as good in sound or feel as the other three, with the exception of Evah Pirazzi (and way back, when they had Flexocor 91 and 92- the 91 E was great, and then they discontinued it or changed it :( ). I really like the Bel Canto extended E but, as you say, it's a bit thick compared to the other three. I don't mind thick strings per se- I really like the feel of Eps, but for me the relative thicknesses from G to E are better.

Would you consider a Bel Canto E with Jargar or Passione top three? Or are they too different?

[Ken Smith]

I felt the same about the Passione long E. Thinking about it, on most Pirastro strings I have used in the past the E has not been as good in sound or feel as the other three, with the exception of Evah Pirazzi (and way back, when they had Flexocor 91 and 92- the 91 E was great, and then they discontinued it or changed it :( ). I really like the Bel Canto extended E but, as you say, it's a bit thick compared to the other three. I don't mind thick strings per se- I really like the feel of Eps, but for me the relative thicknesses from G to E are better.

Would you consider a Bel Canto E with Jargar or Passione top three? Or are they too different?

Bel E is too thick? I said that Jargar is or meant to. The Bel E is fine but the regular E is a bit soft on some basses.

Mixing the Jargars, I think they have 3 gauges to make up sets from and balance it as you would maybe like but into you try, you wont know. Also, this will vary from bass to bass and player to player.

[Dave Whitla]

Bel E is too thick?

Not TOO thick, just thicker relatively in comparison to the top three. Best sounding long E I've tried, along with the medium EP. Different, of course, but both good in their own way.