Bass Age vs Label - Antique Roadshow Moment

[Dave Irwin]

I know the prevailing concensus among the knowledgable is that my new old bass is a 20th century German shop bass and I'm fine with it, but the label does make for a minor mystery. The label seems to be authentic to the maker Franz Feilnreiter as well as the F.F. brand in the bass according to
http://www.bromptons.co/reference-library/books/3-dictionary-of-violin-makers-vol-2/page-202.html
In any event, it sounds good to me.

Here's the pics...

[Adam Linz]

That bass looks like it could be of the time stated by the label. The top looks long to my eye where it meets the neck and the back looks really nice. I don't see so many shop basses that look like this! Regardless, if it sounds good and you love it that is all that matters. Play that beast! Best, Adam Linz

[Ken Smith]

Can I see some more pictures of the scroll, all sides, the Ribs, side views and the end-pin area.

The Bass looks Germanic in nature. There are probably more labels in instruments that were put in there for selling purposes than labels matching their instruments. As far as commercial shop productions, many of those labels are just marketing brands.
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Ok, I found the Sale ad on talk bass (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f210/austrian-double-bass-sale-franz-feilnreiter-ca-1864-a-604833/#post8325978) with more pictures. Still, it doesn't look typical Viennese to me but, I wasn't there when it was made.

The way it is branded over the label and on to the wood looks original. It could be a bass as labeled. I just don't know the makers work to confirm or deny, sorry.

Looks like a nice bass. How does it sound?

[Dave Irwin]

Thanks Adam & Ken.
My description of the sound probably won't do it justice and we're still getting acquainted but IMO, it has a pretty open/big sound considering it'ts fairly small body. There was a reputable player in the shop when I picked her up that made the same observation. I really enjoyed hearing him play it.

The D and G are stronger but It produces a pretty solid E, again good for it'ts size. I am working through a set up issue affecting the A. Under more brutal pizz, the A bottoms out a little slapping against the FB. The FB doesn't have too much left so I'm a little torn about another planing but will be having it worked on.
Under the bow, there is no issue. It seems to speak well all over.
I'm coming from a Shen Willow, which I consider to be very resonant. This bass matches that but sounds much darker and woodier as would be expected.

It currently has old Belcantos on A-G and maybe a Corelli on the E. not sure.
Will be switching out to some Evah's orchs I have. I might try to get some Evah weichs cause I'm not sure it takes that much to pull sound out of this bass.

There is a bit of a wolf just north of G#, pretty out of the way.

So far I'm very happy. I wish I could find some pics of other basses from the maker but I guess the mystery will have to persist.

Thanks again for looking.

Dave

[Ken Smith]

Here is the schocker for you. That label which has #48 on the lower right corner is pictured in a book I have. Jalovec 'German & Austrian makers' on page 81 and on page 276 of his general encyclopedia of makers. This maker died in 1866.

http://i810.photobucket.com/albums/zz22/bpbass/0022.jpg

Is that your Bass? The FF is not there.

On the bass on Ebay, the Label is the same, worn, torn and burnt to look old. It too is the exact same label, #48 but the 8 is torn a bit.

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=279462&d=1342998680

This is why I do not believe all labels in instruments to be true. Dealers copy them from books or steal them from other instruments and then put them in something to increase their value or make them easier to sell. That FF looks like a brand new burned in stamp. Not even 150 years of dirt clogging the letters. Suspicious?

[Ken Smith]

By the way, here is what an actual old label from that period would look like. Don't be so easily fooled. When the bass looks half the age of the label, it probably is!

This bass was heavily used professionally until just recently and has 5 different repair labels. Two of them from the 19th century and 3 of them from the early 20th century. Being repaired over and over again wears even the label, especially if they are moved for repairs and then replaced. The 2 old ones shown look to be on old Vellum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vellum), not paper from pulp.

[Matthew Tucker]

Here is the schocker for you. That label which has #48 on the lower right corner is pictured in a book I have. Jalovec 'German & Austrian makers' on page 81 and on page 276 of his general encyclopedia of makers. This maker died in 1866.
[...]
On the bass on Ebay, the Label is the same, worn, torn and burnt to look old. It too is the exact same label, #48 but the 8 is torn a bit.



FWIW the first label looks to me to be #43 not #48 which would make the second label, if #48 (hard to tell), consistent with the one year later 1865.

[Ken Smith]

FWIW the first label looks to me to be #43 not #48 which would make the second label, if #48 (hard to tell), consistent with the one year later 1865.

The actual label in the book is not dated, only numbered. Not all makers dated their labels. It looks obvious that both labels have been doctored up or lost a bit when they were copied from the book.

If #48 is 1864, then why would #43 be 1865? I am sure they are both #48, copied from the same book. Both faked duped labels. Neither bass has any relation to those labels, but century or country.

The Jalovec Books came out around 1960 or so. The basses might or might not be older.

[Dave Irwin]

Ken, the 48 is the house number at the end of the address line. I saw the label in a book as well. Maybe the same book. I think it was printed in the 20's or 30's.
I see what you mean about the brand. Looks like I'm busted. Oh well, I paid 20th century $ for it so it's ok. The ebay bass better not be authentic. At $4,600, that would really suck.
I had contact with a player in the Austrian Philharmonic and he said his teacher had a Feilnreiter. I couldn't get any pics though.

BTW, what was the period when basses typically got the raised trim/strips on the sides?





The actual label in the book is not dated, only numbered. Not all makers dated their labels. It looks obvious that both labels have been doctored up or lost a bit when they were copied from the book.

If #48 is 1864, then why would #43 be 1865? I am sure they are both #48, copied from the same book. Both faked duped labels. Neither bass has any relation to those labels, but century or country.

The Jalovec Books came out around 1960 or so. The basses might or might not be older.

[Matthew Tucker]

Peter Bockius (germany) plays one perhaps he has photos?

[Dave Irwin]

So I can't explain the brands not being in your photo Ken. But check out the markings/stains around the top of the label. They appear to me to match!
Note the 3 spots to the right of the "cleat?" I dunno my inerds...
And the "L" facing down on the right.


@Matt, I emailed him. We'll see if he responds with a pic!
2472

[Ken Smith]

So I can't explain the brands not being in your photo Ken. But check out the markings/stains around the top of the label. They appear to me to match!
Note the 3 spots to the right of the "cleat?" I dunno my inerds...
And the "L" facing down on the right.


@Matt, I emailed him. We'll see if he responds with a pic!
2472

Those are not from my Book. They are from an Ebay ad and your pics. One is recent on TB, one older and one Ebay. You posted the same one twice, two different exposures of the same shot.

Outside linings on German basses must be at least 200 years old or so. I have also seen them on English and Italian basses from the turn of the 18/19th century and before. I think they both took it from the Germans. Just my guess. Not all German or Czech basses had linings in the same period. It depends on the maker and design. Some makers have made basses both ways, with and without the outer linings over time. It's just a style.

Not all old basses have a high value or sound good either. They were making tons of string instruments in the 19-20th centuries and some, only some were hand made. The rest made in factories or parts assembled in shops made by other families and outworkers. It was the trade then to do so. There were 18th century factories as well from what I have read. Supply and demand = industry.

There are many basses from the German, Austrian and Czech schools that were made for export, students, schools and lower income people over time. I have seen beautiful handmade basses as well as cheap looking boxes with strings made just to have a sound and shape like a bass from the same areas. This is true with all string instruments. Just like today, not everyone can afford a bass in the $50-200k range. The majority of bass sales are probably under 5-10k, many even lower today. About 50 years ago, low end basses were $100-$200. I think they have gone way up, pushed by the economy of the lowest cost decent Asian bass so if it's good and older European, it should cost more.

If you like your bass and it's early 20th century instead of late 19th century, it can have the same value. Maybe that Ebay bass was as labeled (as I doubt) and maybe it needed 5k of work or maybe it had no sound.

I have had 3 old simple made Czech basses in the last 2 years here, 80-120 years old, estimated. They varied in sound and sold at different prices, two of them. The 3rd is still here awaiting repairs. They sell for their sound and condition. If the sound is not there, the price is lower. If it needs work, the price is lower. If it sounds good and needs no major work, the price is higher. There was no pedigree with either of these basses. They were/are priced fairly for their worth.

[Dave Irwin]

Sorry, I totally misunderstood about the picture from the book. I see the pic from my seller's photo album. Still confused about the absence of the brand in that pic.

Anyway, regarding the outside linings, is you point that would have to be older than the label indicates to have them? Or that they indicate my bass is older than 20th century?

I'm very happy with the bass so that or even the value is the issue. I'm just interested in solving the mystery of it. My only interest in the ebay bass was to compare notes. Ofcourse if it is not authentic, I know the odds are mine isn't either.

Anyway, thanks for your time in reviewing!


Those are not from my Book. They are from an Ebay ad and your pics. One is recent on TB, one older and one Ebay. You posted the same one twice, two different exposures of the same shot.

Outside linings on German basses must be at least 200 years old or so. I have also seen them on English and Italian basses from the turn of the 18/19th century and before. I think they both took it from the Germans. Just my guess. Not all German or Czech basses had linings in the same period. It depends on the maker and design. Some makers have made basses both ways, with and without the outer linings over time. It's just a style.

Not all old basses have a high value or sound good either. They were making tons of string instruments in the 19-20th centuries and some, only some were hand made. The rest made in factories or parts assembled in shops made by other families and outworkers. It was the trade then to do so. There were 18th century factories as well from what I have read. Supply and demand = industry.

There are many basses from the German, Austrian and Czech schools that were made for export, students, schools and lower income people over time. I have seen beautiful handmade basses as well as cheap looking boxes with strings made just to have a sound and shape like a bass from the same areas. This is true with all string instruments. Just like today, not everyone can afford a bass in the $50-200k range. The majority of bass sales are probably under 5-10k, many even lower today. About 50 years ago, low end basses were $100-$200. I think they have gone way up, pushed by the economy of the lowest cost decent Asian bass so if it's good and older European, it should cost more.

If you like your bass and it's early 20th century instead of late 19th century, it can have the same value. Maybe that Ebay bass was as labeled (as I doubt) and maybe it needed 5k of work or maybe it had no sound.

I have had 3 old simple made Czech basses in the last 2 years here, 80-120 years old, estimated. They varied in sound and sold at different prices, two of them. The 3rd is still here awaiting repairs. They sell for their sound and condition. If the sound is not there, the price is lower. If it needs work, the price is lower. If it sounds good and needs no major work, the price is higher. There was no pedigree with either of these basses. They were/are priced fairly for their worth.

[Ken Smith]

Sorry, I totally misunderstood about the picture from the book. I see the pic from my seller's photo album. Still confused about the absence of the brand in that pic.

Anyway, regarding the outside linings, is you point that would have to be older than the label indicates to have them? Or that they indicate my bass is older than 20th century?

I'm very happy with the bass so that or even the value is the issue. I'm just interested in solving the mystery of it. My only interest in the ebay bass was to compare notes. Ofcourse if it is not authentic, I know the odds are mine isn't either.

Anyway, thanks for your time in reviewing!

The outside linings and the roundback to me point more to a Bass made either in Germany or the Czech/German border area, not Viennese. Other features are the Top and Back overhang past the Rib Linings. That in itself is very Germanic as well. Viennese and Prague bass almost all have the Ribs without outer linings Flush with the Top and Back plates.

I have an old German(?) bass in restoration right now that is equally confusing to me as your new/old bass is to you. Mine has a round back and outer linings but, the Top and Back plates are flush with the Linings, No overhang. The position of the Purfling on both plates tell me that this is all original. Also, it has slanted F-holes and a killer old Lionhead. We are stumped by its age and origin. So, old basses are often hard to pinpoint what they are unless we have other identical basses that are confirmed to be whatever. I would have a hard time believing this bass of yours is from Vienna. If it is/was, then he made German-like roundback basses which again, doesn't add up.

All of the old confirmed Viennese basses that I have seen have flat backs with angle breaks and mostly flush ribs without outer linings. The Scrolls are often with pointed cheeks and the pegbox rounded under the button area. The FFs are also quite different as well. So, until I see a confirmed Feilnreiter bass by Franz or one of the other 4 members of his family (yes, 5 of them that I found), then I think my hunch is correct, for now!