Jacobus Hornsteiner

[Ken Smith]

About 15 years ago, before I had started back playing again, a customer shopping for a Smith bass brought in his old DB. It had a label by Jacobus Hornsteiner. The name was very familiar to me from the famous Mittenwald family of the various Hornsteiner's as well as the well known old firm of Neuner-Hornsteiner.

Recently, that same bass came back in thru my shop available for sale so I did what I do now with old basses that I like and bought it! Before I go further, after extensive research trying to find out 'which' Hornsteiner maker or makers were associated with the firm of Neuner-Hornsteiner, I learned that at one point, the Mayor of Mittenwald, not a maker, became a business partner in the firm and added his name Hornsteiner. The Firm was before known by other names such a Gebruder-Neuner, Neuner Co. (?) and possibly others.

The maker known by label only as 'Jacobus Hornsteiner' has even the author Javolec puzzled as he has a ? next to his name. This bass looks to me like a large 3/4 1920s-30s (Pre-war) Juzek as made by or supplied by the Wilfer family or one of them as there were a few back then. The design in the upper back is similar but different. A smaller 3/4 model with the same markings showed up for sale last year and seeing that purfled design rang bells in my head. It is kind of a cross between the Pfretzschner and Juzek brand basses. I believe now that the instruments labeled as 'Jacobus Hornsteiner' were actually made in Markneukirchen, Germany near the Czech/German border by Schoenbach, Czechoslovakia (now caled Luby) and not made by any of the Hornsteiner makers or associates in Mittenwald and therefore belong in the German/Czech Shop bass classification.

The sound however to my ear is as good or better than most Juzek Gamba shaped Basses I have ever heard. The string length was about 42 1/2" or so, about 1" longer than the 3/4 model that recently appeared. I moved the bridge and sound post about 1/2" or so and have the bass playing at 42" now.

I will post pictures soon as time allows. If you know of any of these basses, please come forward. I know Paul Warburton used to play one.

[Paul Warburton]

Kenny, Eric Hochberg dropped me a link of this thread on Facebook. Yeah, I played a Jacobus Hornsteiner from about 1959 to 1977. It was in a night club fire in Minneapolis when I ws there with Buddy DeFranco and Pat Moran (of Scott LaFaro fame). To this day, it was the greatest jazz bass I ever played. The fire claimed the top and the treble side ribs. I had Christopher Mayne, (an English luthier living here in Denver at the time, put on an English top plate on that he had laying around and he replaced the ribs. It sounded as good after the repairs as it did before. In 1977, a drunk in a club I was playing tripped and fell on it. That resulted in the bridge foot crashing through the top and bass bar. It just didn't sound as good after that restore so I sold it to a classical soloist who didn't need all the power it had before.
A quick rehearsal with Bill Evans urged him to remark what a great sounding bass it was. The size was pretty much standard 3/4....not so big, but very powerful, indeed. I have some pics of it with Bill, but they're too dark to make out.

[Paul Warburton]

Oops, I fergot I have these from my first recording session, about 1963. Before the fire....

[Ken Smith]

Here are a few pictures of the Jacobus Hornsteiner labeled bass. Paul, was your bass anything like this?

[Paul Warburton]

Mine was a different pattern. The FF's weren't as low slung as yours. The machines had brass caps on the cogs and no purfling design on the back. Only two ebony pins going into the button. Goldish varnish before the fire.

[Ken Smith]

Mine was a different pattern. The FF's weren't as low slung as yours. The machines had brass caps on the cogs and no purfling design on the back. Only two ebony pins going into the button. Goldish varnish before the fire.

Well, being that the name/label 'Jacobus Hornsteiner' was a trade name for imported basses and not an actual person, I think we can safely assume that bass models and even suppliers of the basses to the USA importer could have easily changed over the years. Any idea on how old 'your' bass was in 1963? I guess for the age now, just add 48 years to that number. Mine looks to be from the 1920s or so comparing the style to other basses I have seen with Morelli, Pfretzschner and Juzek labels in them. Mine I think had Hatpeg gears in it before as these machines, regardless of being old are not original to the bass and from a later period.

[Paul Warburton]

Chris Mayne said about 1920 or so on mine.

[Ken Smith]

Here's the page on this Bass; http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Hornsteiner/

[Ken Smith]

I just saw a similar bass posted on Talkbass being repaired. The bass looks slightly younger but the scroll, gears and back purfled emblem are nearly identical. This may be the shop that supplied these basses. Also, the label is the same exact artwork as my past Morelli and other Pfretschner basses I have seen. So, same importer on these names as well.

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Hornsteiner/Images/detail-1.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Hornsteiner/Images/scroll-left-2.jpg

[Arnold Schnitzer]

So Ken, your attribution is the shop of Andreas Wilfer? Can you post any info about that business? Were they in Markneukirchen? Any relation to the current Emanuel Wilfer?

I inspected this bass yesterday and I thought it resembled basses I have seen by Pfretschner. Was that company just exporting, rather than making?

[Ken Smith]

So Ken, your attribution is the shop of Andreas Wilfer? Can you post any info about that business? Were they in Markneukirchen? Any relation to the current Emanuel Wilfer?

I inspected this bass yesterday and I thought it resembled basses I have seen by Pfretzschner. Was that company just exporting, rather than making?

On the name Andreas Wilfer, I think he is a young guy as seen here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhAPQOFVtIA). I don't know how old his firm name is of all the others were names Andreas as well. Perhaps he is related to some of the other Wilfers. Someone would have to contact him (http://www.andreas-wilfer.de/) and ask. I have listed below all that I can find as far as the Wilfer name goes.

As far as Pfretzschner's go, they were sold and branded by the same mid-west firm that marketed the Morelli labeled instruments. On some basses I have seen, they were the same but labeled one or the other. These were the Gamba models. The Violin models from Morelli were possibly from another Firm known as Karl Herrmann. It is also possible that a firm like that could have easily just contracted out the models to be made by various shops on either side of the border, collects them in Germany, sticks a 'Made In' label and sends them off to the states to be re-labeled as needed. There was only one family of actual Pfretzschner's that made instruments and not Bows. That was CF I, CF II and CF III. In books over 100 years old, CF I is listed as from Cremona and that was his label. half a century later or so, they realized his German-like work was from Markneukirchen Germany, not Cremona as labeled. The name G.A. Pfretzschner is fictitious and that maker has yet to be born. There was a commercial firm however known as A.G. Pfretzschner who may or may not of been involved in these Basses, Cellos, Violas and Violins and all of the bowed instruments carried one or the other label from that seller here in the states. I have a few pages of their catalog here of Violins from 1929. Same shop, both labels used. Although Henley lists a G.A. Pfretz., there is no such listing in Jalovec's German makers book or his full listings. He has only the Firm of A.G. Pfretz.. Perhaps Henley took those labels to heart as being real or, mixed in his head the labels with the German firm A.G and switched it in his book to match the American labels of G.A.. Regardless, Henley has the G.A. as a maker of Bows so I still think he is wrong. One professional in the field once told me to "throw away that Henley book" as it was considered by him to have too much inaccurate information or falsehoods. Not everyone agrees with that opinion.

So, if this bass labeled Jacobus Hornsteiner looks like basses labeled G.A Pfretzschner, I have one more reason to put them in the same boat. Look at the are work on the labels of Morelli, Pfretzschner and J.Hornsteiner. EXACT same label artwork. Just a different name on each one!

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/morelli/images/label.JPG
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Hornsteiner/Images/Label.jpg

Sorry for the size difference but that's how I have them saved.

As far as Wilfers go, the Emmanuel name is used as a Firm name as he worked a century ago. I have seen Basses from Juzek from Anton Wilfer and Wenzel Wilfer, WBW. Another Wilfer of which I have seen a bass was Albin Wilfer but worked mostly in Russia. There are over a dozen Wilfers and several of the same name I, II and III beside them in various books. Some worked in Germany and some across the border in Czech. before and after the first great war. Some in Shoenbach and Absroth, a nearby town and some in Markneukirchen. Later, the Wilfers appear in Bubenreuth, north Bavaria (?). The Firms of Karl Hofner, Framus (Fred Wilfer) and the various other Wilfer makers all seems to have started it around the German/Czech border towns of Markneukirchen and Schonbach. In earlier references before WWI they list Absroth as in Bohemia. After WWI it is listed as Germany. In my book of German & Austrian makers by Jalovec, they do not list the Wilfers that worked in Schonbach or Absroth but in his Encyclopedia listing makers from all the countries, these other makers appear. I also find other names in all of the above mentioned cities as well as some other parts of Germany that were specialists in Double Basses as well as making various Parts for the wholesale manufacture trade.

The bass listed herein has a label of 'made in Germany' in English and clearly for export to USA. The other bass above with the stamp of Franz Wilfer (not Andreas) is from Absroth which is near the border but called Bohemia before the 1st war and Germany after it. Also, these are old names of these towns and do not come up in searches on Google except in the reference of labels or stamps in string instruments. Shoenbach is now Luby so who knows what's become of the name Absroth!

In the Henley book, the Wilfers are listed as Albin (Berlin, Moscow and Leipzig), Anton (Absroth and later Canada), Emmanuel (1910, Absroth, Cellos and Basses), Johannes (Leipzig), Joseph (Absroth, 1900) and Max (Markneukirchen, London and Sweden).

From the above list, we know of Import Basses now from Emmanuel (latter 20th century, clearly the Firm name) and Anton of which I have seen both a Cello and Bass instruments labeled that came thru Juzek in NYC. The Bass, I actually owned for awhile and the Cello was in my High School, both dated 1936 or so.

In the Jalovec book (German & Austrian), the Wilfers are listed as Albin (same as above plus his father and grandfather were makers as well from Bohemia), Friedrich (Bubenreuth), Johan (Johannes as above), Wenzel I (Bubenreuth, D.Basses), Wenzel II (20th century, Mohrendorf, D.Basses) and one other name just making bows.

From this second list, the name Wenzel which is not listed in Henley has been seen in many basses. I know for a fact that one or both of them supplied Juzek because, I bought one from them with the Wilfer label, no Juzek label and the other larger bass sitting next to it for years that I passed on was engraved under the button design, WBW in script. My bass and the larger one were clearly the prized models from Wenzel I or II as they were top line handmade basses that were hidden in the back room. I have also seen several mid-late 20th century basses for sale on German websites from Wenzel Wilfer so they did not just make for export.

From the 19 Wilfers listed in the full edition from Javolec, the ones of note that made Basses or may have made basses are; Albin (as listed before), Anton I (20th century Absroth, Bohemia), Anton II (Schonbach, 20th century v.m.), Emmanuel (1921?, Absroth, Bohemian, Cellos and Basses), Friedrich (Bubenreuth, 20th c. Probably Fred Wilfer of Framus), Josef (Absroth, made parts for the industry) Wenzel I and II as listed above and, Wenzel III (Bubenreuth, Cellos and Basses).

The Basses I have seen of near identical design made from about 1900 to the 1950s-'70s or so have been labeled Pfretzschner, Morelli, Hofner, Juzek, Wilfer, J. Hornsteiner (contents of this thread) and Saumer.

Some of these names were actual people or actual shops and some are just made up for the trade. With that said, I do not believe that all of those that are real names actually made the basses bearing their name. I know for a fact from personal research that J.Juzek who was a maker was only the name used for the Basses made for export in USA. There are no Juzeks in Europe unless they came from here 'where' the labels were actually made and placed in the instruments before sale. Hofner has and had a workshop as well on both sides of the border but who really made the basses that look 90% the same as Juzeks made by Wilfer? Who knows! They (Hofner) claim to have made them when I recently emailed the current firm in Germany.

So, who made the J. Hornsteiner Basses? I didn't see a Franz Wilfer listed anywhere! Maybe, that was an export Firm name made up for the wholesale trade or whatever. It IS a Wilfer-like bass or something along those lines. The internal/original workmanship looks good. The Scroll is nice and so it the Purfling. The Varnish is also good as well for a trade-grade bass. So, unless we find a living witness, we may never know. It seems that with all the fictitious names and firms, they covered their tracks and trade secrets fairly well. I think the best thing is to judge the instrument at hand no matter how similar these various brands are to one another. A Juzek is a Juzek, a Wilfer is a Wilfer, a Pfretzschner, Morelli or a J.Hornsteiner is just that. Like Automobile models that differ only slightly, they are as marketed and labeled. Let them stand on their own merits I say and go from there.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Jeez, Ken, don't you have to do chores on Sundays?

[Ken Smith]

Jeez, Ken, don't you have to do chores on Sundays?

No Arnold, I have Orchestra rehearsal each Sunday evening!;) .. This however is considered a Job, a service. I get $1.50 per word. I think I have your billing address, no? If you want to buy a vowel, they are 3 for a quarter, on sale this week only.. :D

[Craig Regan]

Here is the label, from the bass pictured above, from talkbass.

Its a Hornsteiner too!

[Ken Smith]

Here is the label, from the bass pictured above, from talkbass.

Its a Hornsteiner too!

I knew from the Purfling that Bass with the Franze Wilfer stamp was from the same shop but slightly different period as the design is close but not 100% identical. Thanks for showing the Label. It helps confirm things I have found. The EXACT same labels were used for the Morelli and GA Pfretzschner basses names which all came from the same importer in USA but possibly collected from various shops. All 3 brands, same label artwork and same importer.