Little Bass ID

[Chris DeMarco]

So, I just bought this bass for all of fifteen dollars, I haven't picked it up yet but there are a lot of pictures from the seller.

I was origonally thinking about attempting to restore it (amateur "luthier") but after thinking about it, I realized that a restoration of any kind would not even break even on this bass and I have no way to make ribs which aparently were lost some time ago, so I thnk I will just hang it on the wall, maybe put an LED in it or somehting and it will be a conversation piece in my music room.

Anyways, that being said, I still want to know more about it. I am sort of a geek for antiques, especially bass stuff. My guess is that this is either a church bass or an amateur attempt at a cello that somebody in New England made sometime in the 19th century. The scroll looks to be a three part, with one of the sides missing sort of like kay scrolls. The other articularily unique thing about this bass is that the sides are carved into the back. I don't know how else to say it other then that, somebody routed almost like a thick purfling on the inside so that the sides would fit snugly, you can see it in the photo's. Also, if you look at the fingerboard there are gaps, I can't tell if this is just worn tape or if there were actually frets on this bass at some point, it certainly doesn't look like any Viol da Gamba I have ever seen!

Does anybody have any other ideas about the origin of this bass?

Here are the mesurments according to the seller:

Total height: 4 ft

Upper Bout: 12"

Lower Bout: 15"

Depth: 3 1/2"

As you can see, a very small instrument.

Thanks
Chris

[Chris DeMarco]

More pictures yet to come...

[Chris DeMarco]

Thanks again guys, these are all I have for now.

[Ken Smith]

Well, it is a mess and yes, don't bother fixing this for monetary reasons. For learning, it's a good piece to play with. It would be rewarding I am sure to see a cellist play this in an orchestra once fixed and slightly modified.

One thing of importance here is that the Ribs went into a slot cut around the inner edges of both the top and back. This is how Prescott made some if not all of his basses. I would assume some as I haven't seen but a few and who knows what experiments he made over time. This is a furniture-style joint like a drawer divider in a desk. It is the Yankee self taught method of basses of both sizes from the 19th century.

Who made it where or when?

I would say American, 19th century, maybe in the northeast. That's as close as I would venture to say.

[Chris DeMarco]

I didn't know Precott made basses like that. When I get it I will check for markings, if it's close enough to cello measurments it might be an interresting project, cutting it down shouldn't be a challenge since it's missing the ribs anyways. Of course I'm not a luthier but maybe I could donate it to somebody who can fix it, or who knows? I've always wanted to try a restoration project but I think this will be far to big of a job for me.
Thanks

[Ken Smith]

I didn't know Precott made basses like that. When I get it I will check for markings, if it's close enough to cello measurments it might be an interresting project, cutting it down shouldn't be a challenge since it's missing the ribs anyways. Of course I'm not a luthier but maybe I could donate it to somebody who can fix it, or who knows? I've always wanted to try a restoration project but I think this will be far to big of a job for me.
Thanks

I have also seen pictures of one or two of these made in Pa. as well. That's why I said N.E. USA and not just New England.

[Chris DeMarco]

Cool, thanks for the info. I'll update with any markings I find once the bass is in my posession.

[Chris DeMarco]

Well, the verdict is in...

I picked up the "bass" yesterday and to my suprise it is pretty small. It's actually smaller then most cello's I've seen but It's pretty cool so I'm not complaining.

I took some pictures...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/58089532@N07/sets/72157629458891181

When I got the bass it wa sbeing held together by a rubber band, which you can see in those pictures but when the rubber band snapped the bass top fell into two pieces and came off. The scroll is really cool, it's a three piece scroll that is very interresting on one side bt non existent on the other. The fretboard has what I thought were tape marks but what are actually grooves in it. Like there were frets? There was also an interresting patch on the upper end of the front which looks OK from the front but is terrible from the back.

Here are the dimensions:
Upper Bout: 9"
Lower Bout: 11.5"
Mid: 7"
Body Length: 22"
Rib Depth: 3"
String Length (guesstimate): 20"

(As you can see quite a bit smaller then what the seller origonally gave me)

Origonally I was planning on hanging it on a wall but now that I have it, I'm thinking about trying some repairs on it over the summer. I don't intend on getting it in working order but maybe atleast in one piece! I was also thinking with the discovery of the "fret grooves" and size which is actually smaller than a cello maybe it's not a church bass at all, maybe it's a old cello or viol da gamba? Just a thought.

[Ken Smith]

Sounds more like a little or 3/4-1/2 sized cello. A bass of anykind in the modern sense would never be that small. But, in the old days, Cellos were also called basses and OUR basses were called Double Basses formally to make the distinction. In that sense, it is a bass of sort but NOT a small DOUBLE Bass. You have a baby Cello, not a Baby Double Bass.. I think!:confused:

[Chris DeMarco]

A baby cello with frets? :confused:

[Ken Smith]

A baby cello with frets? :confused:

Possibly so or small Church bass which was a basically and American Cello. My JB Allen originally had 3 frets inlaid in the first few positions, inlaid maple lines so show the NON-trained amateur player what notes to play with the singers. With the original neck and FB in hand, I can tell by the varnish wear on the neck that only a few notes were played over and over again. No Simandl training back then, just fistacuffs technique.

[Chris DeMarco]

If I decide to practice some repairs on it, where should I start? I'm thinking either the front or scroll. The front is split in two, the smaller half has a bad F hole crack that is several inches long and the larger half has several smaller cracks towards the bottom. If I start with the front, should I do small cracks first then put the two pieces back together or should it be in all one piece first? Good place to get spare wood for the inside patching? When I get around to the corners, I'll want to know what type of wood the top is made of, any ideas? My guess is pine? As far as the rest of the body, I'll need some veneer for those sides, not sure what that's made of either.

Since it's just a fun project should I just use wood glue or will that just make more of a problem for myself?

[Ken Smith]

If I decide to practice some repairs on it, where should I start? I'm thinking either the front or scroll. The front is split in two, the smaller half has a bad F hole crack that is several inches long and the larger half has several smaller cracks towards the bottom. If I start with the front, should I do small cracks first then put the two pieces back together or should it be in all one piece first? Good place to get spare wood for the inside patching? When I get around to the corners, I'll want to know what type of wood the top is made of, any ideas? My guess is pine? As far as the rest of the body, I'll need some veneer for those sides, not sure what that's made of either.

Since it's just a fun project should I just use wood glue or will that just make more of a problem for myself?

I think this is a huge project and asking online rather than training in a shop by a real Luthier is not the way to go. You need to know the basics and your questions tell me you have very little understaning of how these are made, repaired and with what materials. Imagine your car is damaged in an accident or even a human. Asking questions like this is a sure way something or someone will not make it. Get some training or at least a bit of education on the subject. The more you learn, the more you will realize what you are asking above.

[Scott Pope]

fistacuffs
There's a word I haven't seen in awhile. And, of course, everything comes full circle. Church bands, then organ, then orchestra (with or without organ), then electronic keyboard instruments due to the high cost of purchase and maintenance of a traditional pipe organ, now with some "contemporary" services, back to a church band, now electrified. But from what I've seen, the same comment about technique still applies.

[Chris DeMarco]

Your right Ken, I'm just going to clean it up and hang it on a wall since I have no intention of becoming a "Luthier" anytime soon.

Any ideas on the three piece scroll? Haven't seen one of those on an early American bass and I've seen quite a few.

I think this is a huge project and asking online rather than training in a shop by a real Luthier is not the way to go. You need to know the basics and your questions tell me you have very little understaning of how these are made, repaired and with what materials. Imagine your car is damaged in an accident or even a human. Asking questions like this is a sure way something or someone will not make it. Get some training or at least a bit of education on the subject. The more you learn, the more you will realize what you are asking above.

[Ken Smith]

Your right Ken, I'm just going to clean it up and hang it on a wall since I have no intention of becoming a "Luthier" anytime soon.

Any ideas on the three piece scroll? Haven't seen one of those on an early American bass and I've seen quite a few.

Probably easier to have them spool cut and glue them on like they did a century later on the Kay basses.

Hang it on the wall unless you want to start a new profession in instrument making. ;)