Old three-stringer

[Jacob Hand]

I am not sure if this is the right Forum to post this. I've heard three different possibilities as to the origins of this instrument.

I am writing to find out about this bass I own- and if it is worth restoring. I am mostly a self-taught jazz player, not a classical or chamber player.

I would love to get this restored for posterity, and because I am really curious in what it may sound like. I hate to see something like this sitting unused.

I've taken it to several luthiers in the Midwest, and have been told by several people that it might be from the 1780-1840s, possibly from the Southern Austria or Northern Italy region. One luthier thought it might be a church bass or Prescott bass, but it doesn't look like any I've seen. And yet another thought it was a 1/2 size bass made for a child in the 19th century. I've even heard bassetto.

There are no markings inside or out. I was sold this from an auctioneer.

My issue, other than the mystery, is that this instrument is kind of small for me, I'm 6'3" with big hands. The instrument is 60" in full height (not including the chair-leg post), and has a rough scale length of 33-34".

And, if I did get it all set up (which would take some months and a lot of money), and I found I didn't use it or found it too hard to play, would I be able to sell it for what I put into it? I'm very curious to hear how it sounds, but if it's too weird to play in Viennese tuning, what the two luthiers think it was tuned in, is there someone out there who might be interested in it?

Initially, I'd think I'd restore it as a three-string just to try to maintain the integrity before I go changing it. I play roots music and a little jazz, and am not classically trained. Although I thought putting some gut strings on it and playing some "wolfy" Tom Waits-y kind of stuff with it, or putting steel strings and maybe play some variation on some Ron Carter piccolo bass. Maybe tuned in 5ths or something.

Does anyone know any Baroque or chamber instrument groups or forums or someone who might be interested in this?

I also saw this link (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f1/indenitfication-840130/)- and they look similar.

I did post this on the Talk Bass Forum (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f1/revisiting-bass-859960/), as well.

More photos to come.

Thanks!


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[Jacob Hand]

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[Jacob Hand]

Also, just to clarify. I do have a luthier interested in repairing- not just in taking my money to do so. I'm just trying to find out if it's worth restoring- and what it may be.

Thanks!

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[Adam Linz]

Man that thing is small if the scale length is correct. You sound like a tall guy and it probably wouldn't be good for you. Also it's gonna need a full restoration. Whole thing taken apart, insides gutted and re-done. Maybe you could put a little work into it and it could be a nice older bass for a junior high kid. With a scale length that short it's gonna be a hard sale even if it is restored. Interesting but, from the photos it doesn't look older than 1860's. the tuners look older, but who knows. Good luck and if you do restore it please post pics along the way, that way we all learn. Best, Adam Linz

[Ken Smith]

German Blockless 3-strings, 100-120 years old.

I moved this over here where it belongs. Whom ever you have shown this bass to in the past were clueless in their opinions. I am not trying to insult them but they just didn't know any better. In the turn of the 19th and 20th century, France and England were still offering 3-string basses. The Germans were making a few like yours for those markets as well as for Export to USA. The 4-string Simandl method did not fully take hold as standard until after the first world war.

I have heard stories of these being made near the German/Austrian border as well as the German/Czech border as well as some similar basses made in Prague. Fully blocked string instruments evolved from the Baroque era. There are even Violins with very little blocking at all. I have seen some without corner blocks and with the ribs tucked into the neck aka blockless.

Blockless is just the old furniture way of making instruments. Many of the older instruments that were made with less than a full set of blocks have long since been restored and modified. I have a bass in restoration at this moment as well that was blockless at the neck, smaller blocked at the Tail and only maybe half sized blocks in the corners. It appears this bass was possibly assembled on a mold and the corner blocks added when finished rather than built up from the blocks within the mold.

Basses like yours and even mine aka Tyrolean basses which may or may not actually be from the Tirol were made for Price and often export. They were cheaper than the stronger commercially built German, Czech and French instruments that poured into USA by the 1000's after the first war. Some even before but in much smaller numbers. These 'heavier' built instruments, often machine made with integral bars, were overly wooded and some have been improved with restoration and re-graduation by re-making the bass correctly from now old/aged settled wood. The Tirol lighter built instruments often sounded much better with less dead weight to hinder the sound but with less structural support to keep it from falling apart, cracking or just imploding.

All basses need care and as they age, they need repairs. When ever I have an old bass on the bench, I have all the shortcomings from the original build modified within its restoration. The result is a bass now properly build but sometimes within its own limits and you can't put in what's not there for the most part. The cost for jobs like these often exceeds its commercial value in the end. Someday however as prices rise, the old restored basses will be in more demand if fully modified as they are not making any old basses anymore. Catch-up is what one can hope for.

I've taken it to several luthiers in the Midwest, and have been told by several people that it might be from the 1780-1840s, possibly from the Southern Austria or Northern Italy region. One luthier thought it might be a church bass or Prescott bass, but it doesn't look like any I've seen. And yet another thought it was a 1/2 size bass made for a child in the 19th century. I've even heard bassetto.One time a customer brought in a bass that they bought from a shop just like your bass, 1/2 sized but 4-string, same vintage. They thought they got a great deal on this little old Italian bass. They paid about 10x its value in my opinion and the shop also ripped them off. If a bass shop can't tell the difference between a blockless Germanic style 100 year old bass and a real Italian bass, they should choose a new profession. To my eyes, its like not knowing a Hot Dog from a hamburger. It's that obvious in this profession.

Now, I have seen a few Blockless basses made in this style that were less commercially made and older. They also had nicer Italianish/handmade Scrolls and were just more interesting to look at. These were Fussen style/S.Germany basses that were blockless but less commercially made with more irregular top woods and carved scrolls. These basses also fooled people into thinking they were Italian. Your bass however is more clear cut as was the 1/2 size I looked at a few years ago when the customer overpaid.

Provenance = price +/- in the instrument business. Be careful and always get several opinions if you are not sure.