Spirocore Red's, Orchestral ??

[Ken Smith]

If anyone has protested Spiro Reds for Orchestral Bowing on line, I was one of them and made no secret of it. So, let me voice my new interest about this.

Years ago when I played in NY using my Old Italian Bass, I used a few kinds of strings from time to time but most often, I used Spiro Reds. I bowed on them just fine and usually used that string on all my other basses as well. I don't think there were Starks on the market yet. I think I heard of Solo/Yellow tips and later on Weich/purple tips but had never used or even seen them that I can recall.

Now, with that said, I have seen a few classical soloists using Spiro Solos and in Europe, I have seen a bass or two with Reds on them, Orchestral players. Now, Belcantos came out only a few years ago so if Reds weren't being used by many in the Orchestras then that would mean Thomastic was selling Spiros to mostly Jazz players. Sounds right? Well, I could easily be totally wrong here on that.

I think here in USA we like that smooth sound under the Bow but many of the European players play with a bit more edge in Orchestras from what I have seen in Youtube videos. Maybe it has something to do with playing their own domestic-like music, maybe not.

A few weeks ago I had some basses come in from Europe to set-up and sell here. One had super high action mainly due to a low overstand on the neck but, it had Spiro Reds on it. The G about 11-12mm and the E about 13-14mm off the end of the fingerboard. By the way, that set-up is about what Virtuoso Bassist Leon Bosch uses. He told me this but when I played his Bass, I saw how that felt. I could barely press the strings down!

So, Mr. Bosch and his action preference aside, this modern English copy with super high actioned Spiros, bowed as smooth as anything. When I sent the Bass with a few others out for set-up with one of the Luthiers I gave him some new sets of strings for the other Basses but said "put the Spiros back on that Bass after you move the Neck out".

Now, on my main personal Bass I have used various sets over the last few years including Flex 92s, Belcantos, Jargar med., Passione Starks and now the new Kaplans, in that order. I have tried at least as many strings that I didn't like for that Bass but those 4 sets mentioned are welcomed any time. Of the others I have tried, they found homes on other basses of mine so nothing went to waste. Also, of the ones I used for just a few months, they went on to other basses.

So now, when these Kaplans wear out of I get tired of them, I think I owe it to my own curiosity to try some Spiro Reds.

I will point out that in the past few years, I have had a few basses come in with Spiro Solos and Weichs as well. They Bowed ok for Spiros on those basses that were however set-up for Jazz but, the tone was too thin for my ears.

So please share your thoughts, opinions, observations or experiences with Spiro reds for Orchestral Bowing.

[Eduardo Barbosa]

Hi Ken,
I play a Romanian 7/8's similar to the one you were selling a while back.
I have used EP's regular and weich, Obligatos, belcantos, Zyex, I stll have on hold a set of Helicore Orchestral, and helicore Hybrid to try out. But for some reason Spiros are the ones that truly wake up that particular bass.
I have that bass mainly for Orchestra, but I like the idea of being able to play the same bass for both orchestra and jazz, just so i can become very intimate with one instrument.
The Spiros a little scratchy at times if I am not real careful. But overall I think they sound great and I was told that out front they sound great, and instead of sounding scratchy out front they just make the bass sound very present.
In general I wasn't satisfied with the other strings because after a while they kind of tended to sound just dark and kind of dull. I still love the EP's and have them on my other bass which is a little smaller and brighter.
I will keep practicing all summer with the spiros, and I'll make the commitment of playing the whole next season on them so i can have a real good idea on how they settle in and perform.
BTW, it's also important to mention that I have two new sets of spiros that I am not currently using. I got the set that I am using on ebay for $23 and apparently it had been used for about 5 or 6 years. It really sounds nice. In fact I had a couple of guys from the Colorado Symphony contact me to see if I had a well used set of spiros that they could get from me. That gave me a clue...

[Richard Prowse]

Ken, is it true that the Kaplans have a fast response under the bow? I'm wondering if Spiro Reds would have a fast response too. The EP weichs are a bit slow. I've been thinking about Spiro reds too as a good classical/jazz string.

[Ken Smith]

Ken, is it true that the Kaplans have a fast response under the bow? I'm wondering if Spiro Reds would have a fast response too. The EP weichs are a bit slow. I've been thinking about Spiro reds too as a good classical/jazz string.

Fast response? I am not sure they do for all set-ups and playing styles. They feel a bit light and I now have the 2nd set on my Marconcini school bass which I hardly use outside of the office. They sound fine but I only played them on three concerts in 3 weeks back to back and one was mostly Pizz. I did the Beeth. 9th first, then the New World and last the Pops thing. Three concerts, three Orchestras. I had my work cut out for me. The 3rd venue was Pops and I used the Amp on a few tunes as well. I just don't know how they will work for Orchestral players that dig in hard as if they are using Original Flex's or the like. So far, I have no complaints. I just have to use them and see what happens.

Spiro Reds are fast and have more tension. For a lower action set-up like I use, I think you can play them harder. The 9th was such a workout, I don't know within a section of 7 basses how the bass itself did. My focus was on the 25 pages of DOTS they call music. ;)

Like I said above, the next set I want to try on my Hart are Spiro reds. I know they take time to break in but I will just have to see. It all depends on how well these Kaplans work and last before I change sets again.

A few years ago I had a French Bass here with Reds on it. It was a screamer of a Bass and the Reds put a spotlight on that as well. Then with a customer here, we switches strings and put the Reds on a 5-string with a high C. Hearing him Bow that bass with Reds was impressive. Even on the bright French bass, the sound under the ear is not the same you hear in the next room. They do deserve some merit. I am just not sure I want to sound like that. I am the one that hears me before anyone else does and being the closest to the sound than any listener is, it can't put me in a panic mode on the first note! :eek:

[Richard Prowse]

Fast response? I am not sure they do for all set-ups and playing styles. They feel a bit light and I now have the 2nd set on my Marconcini school bass which I hardly use outside of the office. They sound fine but I only played them on three concerts in 3 weeks back to back and one was mostly Pizz. I did the Beeth. 9th first, then the New World and last the Pops thing. Three concerts, three Orchestras. I had my work cut out for me. The 3rd venue was Pops and I used the Amp on a few tunes as well. I just don't know how they will work for Orchestral players that dig in hard as if they are using Original Flex's or the like. So far, I have no complaints. I just have to use them and see what happens.

Spiro Reds are fast and have more tension. For a lower action set-up like I use, I think you can play them harder. The 9th was such a workout, I don't know within a section of 7 basses how the bass itself did. My focus was on the 25 pages of DOTS they call music. ;)

Like I said above, the next set I want to try on my Hart are Spiro reds. I know they take time to break in but I will just have to see. It all depends on how well these Kaplans work and last before I change sets again.

A few years ago I had a French Bass here with Reds on it. It was a screamer of a Bass and the Reds put a spotlight on that as well. Then with a customer here, we switches strings and put the Reds on a 5-string with a high C. Hearing him Bow that bass with Reds was impressive. Even on the bright French bass, the sound under the ear is not the same you hear in the next room. They do deserve some merit. I am just not sure I want to sound like that. I am the one that hears me before anyone else does and being the closest to the sound than any listener is, it can't put me in a panic mode on the first note! :eek:
Thanks for that Ken. Ha! I know what you mean about what you hear. I might go with those reds instead of the Kaplans - I don't want Kaplans if I don't get that fast response. I've got my second bass set up with a high C (C G D A) for some solo work I have coming up. I've got an old set of Corelli TX strings on (fairly stiff). The C string certainly sings! Who knows, maybe I'll finish up with reds on both basses (still with one high set)?

[Ken Smith]

Thanks for that Ken. Ha! I know what you mean about what you hear. I might go with those reds instead of the Kaplans - I don't want Kaplans if I don't get that fast response. I've got my second bass set up with a high C (C G D A) for some solo work I have coming up. I've got an old set of Corelli TX strings on (fairly stiff). The C string certainly sings! Who knows, maybe I'll finish up with reds on both basses (still with one high set)?

Richard, I am not saying that the Kaplans are not fast. I just did Beeth. 9th with them on my Hart bass. There are some major fast parts in that piece. They worked great. I was only saying that I don't know what the hard core Orig.Flex. players will or do think about them. They are too new on the market to have all the opinions in. I like them and would be glad to stick with them if nothing else was available. What one string has, another string might lack and visa versa. Not every string does everything. I think they are worth the try. The tone is sweet. My bass likes them!

[Richard Prowse]

Richard, I am not saying that the Kaplans are not fast. I just did Beeth. 9th with them on my Hart bass. There are some major fast parts in that piece. They worked great. I was only saying that I don't know what the hard core Orig.Flex. players will or do think about them. They are too new on the market to have all the opinions in. I like them and would be glad to stick with them if nothing else was available. What one string has, another string might lack and visa versa. Not every string does everything. I think they are worth the try. The tone is sweet. My bass likes them!
Thanks Ken, I'll keep them in the equation. The Corelli strings are doing a good job on the 'solo' bass. What are the Kaplans like at pizz?

[Ken Smith]

Thanks Ken, I'll keep them in the equation. The Corelli strings are doing a good job on the 'solo' bass. What are the Kaplans like at pizz?

The Hart is more of a dry sounding bass Pizz wise. Until last month, it was always used as an Orchestral bass, never for Jazz. It took me almost 5 years before I touched the bridge to fit it for my pick-up. Amplified, it did quite well as a jazz bass. Un-amped, I had 3 other basses playing with me in unison but it seemed to work well.

[Scott Pope]

Ken, I know that you know, but for the rest of the crowd interested in Spiros, everyone needs to remember that there are five different sets of orchestra tuned Spiros, and then there are two solo sets, the quint tuning sets, and the fractional sets after that. Most people only talk about the S42 4/4 sets. For the standard tuned sets, in ascending order of tension, if all were fitted on the same bass:

S42W 4/4 Weich
3885W 3/4 Weich
S42 4/4 Mittel
3885 3/4 Mittel
S42 4/4 Stark

So that I could make an informed decision about fit on my particular instrument, I contacted Connolly about the differences in speaking lengths and silk lengths between the S42 4/4 and 3885 3/4 sets. They sent me a very explanatory email with a chart, but the chart is coded into the email, and I don't know how to reformat the chart so it is clear, and not just linear data. When I try to cut and paste the chart out of the email, I just get strings of numbers. I'd like to forward that to you. Please let me know either here or by PM how you would like me to send you that information.

[Ken Smith]

Ken, I know that you know, but for the rest of the crowd interested in Spiros, everyone needs to remember that there are five different sets of orchestra tuned Spiros, and then there are two solo sets, the quint tuning sets, and the fractional sets after that. Most people only talk about the S42 4/4 sets. For the standard tuned sets, in ascending order of tension, if all were fitted on the same bass:

S42W 4/4 Weich
3885W 3/4 Weich
S42 4/4 Mittel
3885 3/4 Mittel
S42 4/4 Stark

So that I could make an informed decision about fit on my particular instrument, I contacted Connolly about the differences in speaking lengths and silk lengths between the S42 4/4 and 3885 3/4 sets. They sent me a very explanatory email with a chart, but the chart is coded into the email, and I don't know how to reformat the chart so it is clear, and not just linear data. When I try to cut and paste the chart out of the email, I just get strings of numbers. I'd like to forward that to you. Please let me know either here or by PM how you would like me to send you that information.

Forward me the email to support@kensmithbasses.com

I think there is one set of Reds for a normal size bass that I consider mediums aka mittels. These other names and gauges are newer to me than what we had 30-40 years ago. That's all I know. Whatever a 4/4 is in their language, I have no idea. The modern 3/4 bass is a small instrument as compared to the manageable 7/8th which is actually a 3/4 or Orchestra Norm with and average body length of about 45 1/4". From 46-48" bodies, you are in the 4/4 range in my world. Maybe they need to make a 7/8th length? I will wait for your chart in my email.

[Scott Pope]

Forward me the email to support@kensmithbasses.com
Email forwarded. I think the set everyone refers to as the "Reds Mittel" is the S42 Mittel set. I am using a 3885W E string with the Bels ADG and it is a great match for feel and tone on my bass.

[Ken Smith]

Email forwarded. I think the set everyone refers to as the "Reds Mittel" is the S42 Mittel set. I am using a 3885W E string with the Bels ADG and it is a great match for feel and tone on my bass.

I can't post that chart either. As far as the subject goes, what can you tell me if anything about Orchestral bowing for the Red set, medium gauge, either length.

[Anselm Hauke]

this one?

2446

[Ken Smith]

this one?

2446

Wow, great. Much more info than the email but that was specifically for just one model.

Now that we have you here, I have mentioned that I think Spiro reds are more common in Europe for Orchestra than the states, I think. Can you elaborate a little on that in any way? I know you play bass in German Orchestras so your personal experience and observations with S.Reds would be warmly welcomed here.

[Terry McDougal]

Wow, great. Much more info than the email but that was specifically for just one model.

Now that we have you here, I have mentioned that I think Spiro reds are more common in Europe for Orchestra than the states, I think. Can you elaborate a little on that in any way? I know you play bass in German Orchestras so your personal experience and observations with S.Reds would be warmly welcomed here.
Yes Anselm, I'm really interested to hear your thoughts too.

[Anselm Hauke]

well, i am not very active in symphony orchestras these days.
but i remember a majority of flexocore players.

[Scott Pope]

The T-I downloadable pdf chart has been around a long time. It is useful, but limited. Tension specs are like a bird watcher's nature book. It will give you general descriptions and get you to the right area to try to see what you're looking for, but won't give you the final answer. A tension guide is not like an engineering manual where you consult the specifications desired to make a decision about structure. The tension specs will say nothing about tone, arco and pizz characteristics, that always subjective "feel," and so on. Finally, the speaking length measurements are necessary to see if a string will actually fit, especially for the E string: if the string is too long, especially for the E string (and B string if a 5), if too much speaking length is around the tuning post, it can affect the integrity of the string. (Mini rant: that's why I don't see the point of "traditional" tuning peg placement. Something like Upton does, reversing the stagger, is much more logical from a string silk leader perspective.)

One more limitation: you can't directly compare the tension specs for those strings listed as suitable for 110 cm mensure (T-I's version of "4/4") and those listed as suitable for 106 cm mensure (T-I's version of "3/4"). Tension varies as to the square of the difference in mensure, so to find out what the "real" tension of an S42 string when strung on a 106 cm mensure bass instead of a 110 cm mensure bass, some math has to be done. I did the math. My chart to directly compare the sets is over on TalkBass. Here is the raw data; this is the best I can do to get it into a nice chart with columns on this forum for ease of reading:


G D A E Total
S42 4/4 Light 55.3 59.3 61.4 63.4 239.4
S42 4/4 Medium 61.4 65.5 69.6 69.6 266.1
S42 4/4 Heavy 73.7 73.7 75.8 77.8 301.0
4/4 Solo @ 3/4 Orch 50.3 55.3 55.3 55.3 216.2
3/4 Solo @ 3/4 Orch 56.0 57.8 57.8 57.8 229.4
3885 3/4 Light 60.6 61.7 63.9 66.1 252.3
3885 3/4 Medium 67.2 68.3 70.5 72.8 278.8


When I have time, I'll see if I can take the email chart for silk and speaking lengths and try to do the same thing for here.

[Ken Smith]

The Subject is Sprio REDS, the Mediums only. The size of your bass will determine which set you get, the S42s or the 3885s, All the other models and gauges are irrelevant at the moment as far as my question goes.

S42 4/4 Medium 61.4 65.5 69.6 69.6 = 266.1

3885 3/4 Medium 67.2 68.3 70.5 72.8 = 278.8

What do these numbers mean under my fingers and on my Neck or Bow? The 4/4 set is lower then the 3/4 set? When I ordered a normal set they sent me the 3885s according to my invoice. But, when I ordered a C ext. string for that same set, it was a C S44.

So, regardless of which length you need, the Red's are the Red's because you can't use a string too long or short for your bass.

As far as Tuning Peg placement goes, the reverse placement idea came from the French, back in the 19th century. The New Standards from Arnold and Wil come with reverse gears as well and have so for as long as I have known those basses. Many early-mid 20th century German basses from both Meyer and Pollmann have reverse tuners as well as 2 on the bass side of the 5ers. They too have realized the need for more after length on thicker strings. But, it is not so easy sometimes with reverse tuners to put a low C-extension on and use the top gear. In this case, the lower gear normal E post would be the longer after length for the E/C string.

The best way I have found for the Low E with standard placement of the gears is to put the E on the upper Gear like it would be if you had a C extension. This way, when switching back between a regular 4 and a bass with Ext., the E and A are on the same posts. On my 5er, I have 3 gears on the bass side so I put the A lowest, E middle and B the upper most peg, usually for the A. So in this case, the B switched with the A giving way to the larger string to be the longest after length. Ok, END of off topic!.. ;)

So, who here has experience with Orchestral Bowing using Spiro Reds, Medium gauge, Red at both ends?

[Arnold Schnitzer]

As far as Tuning Peg placement goes, the reverse placement idea came from the French, back in the 19th century. The New Standards from Arnold and Wil come with reverse gears as well and have so for as long as I have known those basses. Many early-mid 20th century German basses from both Meyer and Pollmann have reverse tuners as well as 2 on the bass side of the 5ers.


Actually, Ken, I think the G-low placement is a holdover from converted 3 stringers. Most of them had the two upper strings on the treble side of the pegbox, and the single string on the bass side. Then, when converting to 4 strings, many luthiers just filled the peg hole on the low side and drilled two holes there. That leaves the G string peg as the lowest in the pegbox. I've seen this on several converted basses. Most makers of 4 string basses keep the E string as the lowest, and conversions done early on often used plates, which were oriented that way as well.

[Ken Smith]

Actually, Ken, I think the G-low placement is a holdover from converted 3 stringers. Most of them had the two upper strings on the treble side of the pegbox, and the single string on the bass side. Then, when converting to 4 strings, many luthiers just filled the peg hole on the low side and drilled two holes there. That leaves the G string peg as the lowest in the pegbox. I've seen this on several converted basses. Most makers of 4 string basses keep the E string as the lowest, and conversions done early on often used plates, which were oriented that way as well.

Ok, but I have seen it on French basses that started as 4s, no? Not to mention that all the Meyer and Pollmann's were 4s as well, right?

But besides that and BACK on Topic, your thoughts, opinions, observations or experiences with Spiro reds for Orchestral Bowing?

[Arnold Schnitzer]

I think on a dark sounding bass there is nothing louder or more defined-sounding. But you better have great bow technique, a terrific bow, and a gob of sticky rosin.

[Ken Smith]

I think on a dark sounding bass there is nothing louder or more defined-sounding. But you better have great bow technique, a terrific bow, and a gob of sticky rosin.

Ok, the Hart, my Lipkins, Bryant or Fetique, sticky rosin of sorts and a bow arm that almost never tires..

I used them decades ago on my old Italian but I don't know if they will work on the Hart.

I did not like Evah weichs, Velvets or the new Flex Dlx on the Hart of the ones I remember I tried and took off almost as fast or faster than they went on. On my Lamy, I have 3 Evah weichs and a Spiro E. The E is easier to bow than the Evahs and darker sounding as well as more focused and powerful. Maybe?

[Bin Hire]

I think on a dark sounding bass there is nothing louder or more defined-sounding. But you better have great bow technique, a terrific bow, and a gob of sticky rosin.
Sorry Arnold, I really respect your great experience but, I have bowed spiro reds and they didn't seem particularly hard to bow. Mind you, I must be honest and say that I have never had a set on my own bass. Maybe it is time to try them?

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Sorry Arnold, I really respect your great experience but, I have bowed spiro reds and they didn't seem particularly hard to bow. Mind you, I must be honest and say that I have never had a set on my own bass. Maybe it is time to try them?
I get it. When I was a classical bass student I also played jazz, lounge and wedding gigs, so I had reds on my bass. (Back then there were really only 2 or 3 metal string choices.) My arco teacher was constantly on my case to get those "chainsaws" off my bass. But I developed decent enough bow technique to pull a reasonable sound. However, compared to modern damped arco strings like BelCanto or Kaplan or Flexicor, Spiros can be very tricky for someone who did not start out with them.

[Alex Verbree]

I use spirocore lower strings on my Upton, And I enjoy them (classical playing). at first, they were very bright, but they have now calmed down a bit. I have a personal preference for using brighter strings on the bottom to help with low range definition, so they suit me just fine, and in terms of bowing i have no difficulty, and i don't consider myself to have the most fantastic of bow arms.


just my $0.02


alex

[Ken Smith]

I get it. When I was a classical bass student I also played jazz, lounge and wedding gigs, so I had reds on my bass. (Back then there were really only 2 or 3 metal string choices.) My arco teacher was constantly on my case to get those "chainsaws" off my bass. But I developed decent enough bow technique to pull a reasonable sound. However, compared to modern damped arco strings like BelCanto or Kaplan or Flexicor, Spiros can be very tricky for someone who did not start out with them.

When I had my old Czech/German bass in the early '70s, my friend Victor Venegas told me I needed Flexocors to Bow as I was using Red's. So, I got them (they were like the 92s, reddish/maroon silk) and they sounded dead on my bass with Pizz so, I took them off and stayed with Red's. My next bass and basses I got one after another, my WBW Wilfer from Juzek, Bernardel and Tirol, ALL with Red's and I learned the Dragonetti, Eccles and all my classical training with these basses. In 1973/4 I got my old Italian, selling off the other basses in the process one by one, the old Czech gone first, I put the Reds on the Italian and never looked back. I sometimes tried other strings later on like Rotosouns synthetic Orchestra strings, no longer made but similar in my mind to Obligatos and later the Labella steels for Orchestra which I helped in the testing developments but, always went back to Reds. Homer Mensch had a mix of Spiros on his Italian, with regular, weich and solos to make up his set when that bass came to sale. So, I did see at least one other bowing professional using Sriros.

My only concern here is how they will sound on my bass, the Hart. I have no problem bowing them but, the sound they have is what they have. That, I can't change. I do however want to find out if or how many people currently use then for Orchestra regardless of where they are in the world. For Pizz, I have been able to play Jazz on just about any of my basses with all sorts of Bowing strings. Maybe it's my set-up or my technique or what I like to hear but I am a one string per bass kinda guy. What ever is on the bass, I do everything with.

[Ken Smith]

I use spirocore lower strings on my Upton, And I enjoy them (classical playing). at first, they were very bright, but they have now calmed down a bit. I have a personal preference for using brighter strings on the bottom to help with low range definition, so they suit me just fine, and in terms of bowing i have no difficulty, and i don't consider myself to have the most fantastic of bow arms.


just my $0.02


alex

One day a new sub comes into the section with a smallish old dark varnished Italian bass and I looked over at his strings. G/D Flex (? 92 or orig) and E/A Spiros. They sounded fine. A year or so earlier another guy with a large Italian had Flex g/d/a and Red Spiro Ext. E/C. Last year I had a bass in here with 3 Orig Flex and a Solo Spiro (red/yellow) ext. E/C.

So, I have seen them in use on the bottom and in mixed sets but rarely have I seem them recently with all Reds.

[Scott Pope]

Ken, I didn't mean to be off topic. Your main question: the difference in feel between the 3/4 and the 4/4 Spiro mittels: according to the numbers, the 3/4 3885 set, on a @106 cm mensure bass, compared to the 4/4 S42 set strung on the same bass, might feel a little bit stiffer, but hardly noticable, assuming the bass is setup with the proper overlength to the tailpiece, and the pegbox geometry being able accomodate either string.

I only posted the numbers to get a broader perspective, and to remind everyone about all the current different choices now available for Spiros.

Thank you very, very much for the history of the reverse stagger tuners. I've also swapped out which string goes to which tuner to lessen the stress on the E string break over the nut and to better seat the G string to avoid "twang" as well.

[Ken Smith]

Ken, I didn't mean to be off topic. Your main question: the difference in feel between the 3/4 and the 4/4 Spiro mittels: according to the numbers, the 3/4 3885 set, on a @106 cm mensure bass, compared to the 4/4 S42 set strung on the same bass, might feel a little bit stiffer, but hardly noticable, assuming the bass is setup with the proper overlength to the tailpiece, and the pegbox geometry being able accomodate either string.

I only posted the numbers to get a broader perspective, and to remind everyone about all the current different choices now available for Spiros.

Thank you very, very much for the history of the reverse stagger tuners. I've also swapped out which string goes to which tuner to lessen the stress on the E string break over the nut and to better seat the G string to avoid "twang" as well.

I thought the main question was the Bowing of the Reds in Orchestra. The tension between 3/4 or 4/4 sets do not matter all that much. Why would one buy strings too long or short for his bass? Plus, each bass has different tensions as well so I am not really concerned with the String numbers as the bass and its set-up will matter more.

Also, I am glad to see you had some positive results moving the strings to different gears. I also think it helps to open up the sound a bit when lengthening the E-string up to the A-string Post.

[Richard Prowse]

Sorry Ken, I know this is a little off topic, but...
if I am tossing up between Kaplans and Spiro Reds - I need a good bowing string that also has a reasonable pizz sound (I don't want a spongy pizz). You've used Kaplans; should I, in your opinion, go for reds or Kaplans?

[Ken Smith]

Sorry Ken, I know this is a little off topic, but...
if I am tossing up between Kaplans and Spiro Reds - I need a good bowing string that also has a reasonable pizz sound (I don't want a spongy pizz). You've used Kaplans; should I, in your opinion, go for reds or Kaplans?

I think it depends on your bass. The two basses I tried the Kaplans on are old deep sounding basses, the Hart and the Marconcini school bass. I have never tried Spiro reds on either of those basses.

I will say this thought. Today, I put a set of Spiro Solos (red/yellow) on the Marconcini. I bought them a year ago or so and just never had the chance to use them on anything. Getting back on this 'Reds' idea, I thought it would be interesting to try the Solos on a bass that I have fresh Kaplans on to compare them in preparation for trying the Reds on the Hart.

So, between the Kaplans and the Solo Spiros on the Marconcini, the Kaplans are deeper sounding but in the distance, the Spiro Yellows are louder and sweeter sounding, on THAT Bass. The G string on the solos is much thinner in diameter. The other 3 strings are close or nearly identical in size. The tension and type of sound is totally different.

[Sam Sherry]

That chart is cool for sure. I love the Deutsche ad-man's copy:

"Less inertia, longer period of musical vibration."
Your average bassist would say, "Fast voice, unparalleled sustain."

"Equally effective when playing arco or pizzicato."
As opposed to what? There are a paucity of other choices beyond "arco or pizzicato" and I shudder to think of Ken's Hart suffering from most of them!

In any event, meandering back toward the topic at hand: Ken, I'm sure you won't forget that if you're headed toward orchestral work on Spiros there's no particular reason to install a new set!

[Ken Smith]

That chart is cool for sure. I love the Deutsche ad-man's copy:

"Less inertia, longer period of musical vibration."
Your average bassist would say, "Fast voice, unparalleled sustain."

"Equally effective when playing arco or pizzicato."
As opposed to what? There are a paucity of other choices beyond "arco or pizzicato" and I shudder to think of Ken's Hart suffering from most of them!

In any event, meandering back toward the topic at hand: Ken, I'm sure you won't forget that if you're headed toward orchestral work on Spiros there's no particular reason to install a new set!

Well yes but first off, I need a set with no internal damage completely healthy within the windings and second, a set with an Extension E/C string. Third, it is only June now and I wont have a concert till about October, about four months from now.

So, if I put on a brand new set, I have time to break them in.

As far as bright strings so, I tried a set of Solo Orig. Flatchromes on my Storioni one night. Bright but good sounding. Also, yesterday as a pre-test I put some 'brand new' Solo Spiros (red/yellow) on the Marconcini school bass and they are nice as well. Bright they are but I didn't run away from them.

[Ken Smith]

Ok, having the Solo set on one bass I think is enough for me to test over the Summer. Being that I had them in stock already, it was easy to try them on something without having to order them in. I got them last year just before the prices were about to go up so not I will see what they do.

Tonight I put a set of Jargar Dolce/green silked strings that I got last year as well but haven't had the need to try them. I took off the Kaplans from the Hart and replaced them one string at a time. Each string going on felt like the bass was moving closer to the sound I like most. These are lighter in gauge than the medium/blue Jargar set I tried last year but do not feel or sound thin like other solo sets do. I will have the Summer to play on them and decide if they stay on for the season starting in the fall.

So, instead of going from the new Kaplans to Red's on the Hart, I went to Jargar Dolce's. That's about as far a tonal difference between two strings that are on the market. Spiros and Jargars, complete opposites. I think the Hart is destined to be a smooth, deep, dark sounding bass rather than what it might turn into with Red's. For now, I will never know until that day comes when I have time to try them and I don't have any sets 'already purchased to try out'. I am not closing the door or burning any bridges here (I love the Bridge on the Hart, lol), I am just staying on my normal path of tone for that bass.

[Richard Prowse]

The Kaplans are off! :( (sorry, used a Smilie - out of character)
Well, here's my dilema. I have EP weichs on and have a recording to do in about four weeks. The EPs will do the job nicely, but I also want to get a string that will bow faster. Ken, I was hoping that you'd be really happy with the Kaplans and, perhaps, suggest that they were also a reasonable pizz string. I don't have time to count on breaking in Reds - it takes about two weeks here to get strings from Lemur music and, because of the internet string thing, most music shops aren't carrying DB strings. There is a guy in Auckland but he charges an arm and a ley; anyway, it's almost as quick to get strings from the US of A.
So, how did you feel about the Kaplans overall? Do they handle fast bowing - say as in Monti's Czardas; and what is their pizz feel like?
I wait in anticipation.

[Ken Smith]

The Kaplans are off! :( (sorry, used a Smilie - out of character)
Well, here's my dilema. I have EP weichs on and have a recording to do in about four weeks. The EPs will do the job nicely, but I also want to get a string that will bow faster. Ken, I was hoping that you'd be really happy with the Kaplans and, perhaps, suggest that they were also a reasonable pizz string. I don't have time to count on breaking in Reds - it takes about two weeks here to get strings from Lemur music and, because of the internet string thing, most music shops aren't carrying DB strings. There is a guy in Auckland but he charges an arm and a ley; anyway, it's almost as quick to get strings from the US of A.
So, how did you feel about the Kaplans overall? Do they handle fast bowing - say as in Monti's Czardas; and what is their pizz feel like?
I wait in anticipation.

Richard, I did Beethoven's 9th with the them, New World Symphony and a Pop's concert doing mostly Pizz and all the Amp work in the section while the other 3 basses just watched for a good part of the tunes I was amp'ed. Three concerts, three different orchestras, same bass (Hart) and same strings (Kaplans). Bows? Lipkins on the 9th but don't remember what I used on the others. Maybe the Mattei for the Pops that I hardly bowed on and probably but can't remember, the Lipkins on the New World.

I think I gave them a real good workout and test. Find a copy of the 9th and see how fast some of the parts are. I think the Kaplans did just fine. If not, they would have come off the bass as soon as they went on.

[Richard Prowse]

Richard, I did Beethoven's 9th with the them, New World Symphony and a Pop's concert doing mostly Pizz and all the Amp work in the section while the other 3 basses just watched for a good part of the tunes I was amp'ed. Three concerts, three different orchestras, same bass (Hart) and same strings (Kaplans). Bows? Lipkins on the 9th but don't remember what I used on the others. Maybe the Mattei for the Pops that I hardly bowed on and probably but can't remember, the Lipkins on the New World.

I think I gave them a real good workout and test. Find a copy of the 9th and see how fast some of the parts are. I think the Kaplans did just fine. If not, they would have come off the bass as soon as they went on.
Thanks Ken, I appreciate that. Sounds like I need to try these Kaplans.

[Joshua phelps]

I remember ken raising an eyebrow to me saying I enjoyed spirocore reds for arco playing a while back haha. I've been using a set of belcantos per recommendation from ken (which I love) for the past six months. I think kens description of the spiros being edgier & belcantos being smoother is spot on. Sometimes I feel like these 2 sets would be suited for different composers work rather than a jack of all trades set. I miss my spiros sometimes (which I put on a Romanian flatback I rebuilt & sold to a jazz player) for getting a nice beefy forte on Beethoven pieces. I use black hair & med oak rosin always on both sets by the way.

[Eric Hochberg]

Speaking with my luthier today, who works on many of the basses in the Chicago Symphony, I was told that the strings of choice for many years in the orchestra were EA Spiro Red and DG Flexocores. This is what Joe Guastafeste preferred and the other bassists followed suit.

[Ken Smith]

Speaking with my luthier today, who works on many of the basses in the Chicago Symphony, I was told that the strings of choice for many years in the orchestra were EA Spiro Red and DG Flexocores. This is what Joe Guastafeste preferred and the other bassists followed suit.

I have heard of and seen that string combo used. But, it's only 2 of the 4 strings in the set. Do they still use that set over there?

[Eric Hochberg]

I have heard of and seen that string combo used. But, it's only 2 of the 4 strings in the set. Do they still use that set over there?

Don't know, maybe I can find out.

[Mark Stefaniw]

I'm about to try a S42 weich set with extended-E (yikes). I've been trending towards lower tension (Flex/92, Permanent, EP reg, EP weich, Obligato, and now Superflexible). Connoly claimed that TI does not make a SF extended-E, so I put on my old spiro mittle extended-E. But I see the extended-E in the TI PDF chart posted here earlier.

Overall the SF A/D/G sound the best on my bass, but the spiro mittle extended-E seems choked a bit.

Is my thinking correct? Maybe weichen all the way across might be the ticket? Also, my mensure is 41 3/4 with the back of the bridge feet bisecting the line between the inner f-hole nicks. So I'm thinking S42 is my string right?

Bass: 2003 Romanian carved flatback by Baranyai Gyorgi, Budapest I got from Robertson's in NM.

[Ken Smith]

I'm about to try a S42 weich set with extended-E (yikes). I've been trending towards lower tension (Flex/92, Permanent, EP reg, EP weich, Obligato, and now Superflexible). Connoly claimed that TI does not make a SF extended-E, so I put on my old spiro mittle extended-E. But I see the extended-E in the TI PDF chart posted here earlier.

Overall the SF A/D/G sound the best on my bass, but the spiro mittle extended-E seems choked a bit.

Is my thinking correct? Maybe weichen all the way across might be the ticket? Also, my mensure is 41 3/4 with the back of the bridge feet bisecting the line between the inner f-hole nicks. So I'm thinking S42 is my string right?

Bass: 2003 Romanian carved flatback by Baranyai Gyorgi, Budapest I got from Robertson's in NM.

I have used the SF Ex some time ago on my Storioni. It was on the bass when I first bought it so they did at least make it back then. It was an orchestra gauge, not solo.