is this english?..

[Jim Mortimore]

Hello,
I have acquired this bass and am very much interested in what it might be...
Any info would be greatly appreciated. I was told by someone that it might have been made locally and local is London!

Measurements are:

String Length: 42
Upper Bouts: 21.6
Mid bouts: 15.6
Lower: 26.8

[Ken Smith]

Hello,
I have acquired this bass and am very much interested in what it might be...
Any info would be greatly appreciated. I was told by someone that it might have been made locally and local is London!

Measurements are:

String Length: 42
Upper Bouts: 21.6
Mid bouts: 15.6
Lower: 26.8

If you do not know what this is, send it to me. I will find out what it is. I do not see how you would get a bass like this and not know if it is English or not? Did you inherit this? You can email me if you wish to keep this private.

[Anselm Hauke]

no no, send it to me.
;-)

[Ken Smith]

no no, send it to me.
;-)

My Forum, I get first dibs! :mad:

[Anselm Hauke]

ok, let´s think about the distance:
london - perkasie
london - bremen

:D



Jim: GREAT looking bass!

[Ken Smith]

ok, let´s think about the distance:
london - perkasie
london - bremen

:D


Yeah yeah yeahh.. :(

[Jim Mortimore]

yes,
very funny ;)

the bass does have H.D Curtis engraved in the tuning gear head. is this a name you are familiar with at all?

[Anselm Hauke]

sorry, no.

[Ken Smith]

yes,
very funny ;)

the bass does have H.D Curtis engraved in the tuning gear head. is this a name you are familiar with at all?

No, must be the guy that owned the bass at one time. Ask at Thwaites and Conrtabass shop and Gallery Strings and Tom Martin, the English guys!

[Chris Shaw]

Or maybe Curtis just made the machines? I'm pretty confident that there are no known makers called Curtis. But not much doubt about the quality, and the Englishness of this is there! As for distance, I'm in London SE24 - would love to take a look at it! You didn't get it from Adrian Warrick did you?

[Jim Mortimore]

ok..

I shall let the cat out of the bag. I have not been entirely truthful here regarding me acquiring the bass.. more like trying to acquire the bass. :rolleyes: but I was trying to gather some info before the auction this morning. I hope have not broken any forum rules their Ken :o I'm sure you could imagine my excitement when the estimate price was set at £250-£350!!!! i knew it would never sell anywhere near this price but this is a fairly small time antiques auction in the south of england not a specialist musical instrument auction at all. You live in hope. I thought hey.. maybe none of the double bass collectors have seen it tucked away in a small time antiques auction in the south of england. I thought wrong... Most of the major english double bass collectors and repairers were there. The auction... Everyone took their spots and it began.. I bid on the bass up £18k my limit... it sold for £22.5k. with commission and taxes thats over £30k. The buyer... the director of contra basse shoppe Anthony Houska. I'm sure the contra basse shoppe is a fine home and place for such a fantastic bass to be restored and loved for the next few years.. If I had the money I would not think twice about spending that kind of money on such an amazing instrument. Just playing one note on it brought uncontrollable smiles and happiness to me. I can only dream of acquiring a bass like this again in the future or maybe I should start saving so when Tony has restored it I may have to go and buy it from the contra basse shoppe in a few years :D

[Chris Shaw]

You can be certain that Tony will do a great job. Every single one of his basses is presented in the absolute best of conditions - so I agree that the bass will do well out of this. Still a shame for you though Jim! Which auction house was it?

[Jim Mortimore]

Yes indeed, to Tony's bass sanctuary it goes..

here is the auction house lot info link in case your interested...

http://www.gorringes.co.uk/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?salelot=LJUNE12++136+&refno=10255207&saletype=P

[Chris Shaw]

Wow - their pictures just confirm what a wonderful instrument that is. My guess is Lott senior. What annoys me is that the auction house just didn't bother to do their homework. To describe it as late 19th century German displays an unbelievable incompetence. Ok for the buyer, but what about the poor seller? Why didn't they just ask someone who knew what he was talking about as their "specialist" clearly doesn't! That bass, with a little work, will easily fetch three times the hammer price. A Fendt attribution, in similar condition, went at Brompton's a couple of years ago for a hammer price of £42000. I believe, but I'm not certain on this, that that one went to Tony as well.

[Ken Smith]

So, the bass sold for about $46,500. That is why I was curious what in the world your were doing with it asking these 'innocent-like' questions. Sneaky!!:eek:

Edward Withers (repair label mentioned) died in 1875. Many good makers worked there of the years. This bass is Classic English with Maggini/d'Salo f-holes. Basses like these were made by Lott, Kennedy, Hart, Hart/Valentine, BF Fendt and others pre-1850. After that, there were a few followers of this style as well.

Paying that price for this bass in as-is condition, Tony has an idea it is one of the great makers. Do not be surprised if you see him list a Thomas Kennedy for some 6-figure price before long. Remember those Gears! They are Bakers by the way. Real ones.

[Chris Shaw]

They aren't Baker machines Ken. If you look more closely you'll see that the front support for the turning key isn't separate. It's part of the brass backing plate. Baker didn't do this - but Lottt Senior did. As I'm sure you know, Lott sometimes made his own machines and this is one of the features that he sometimes used. Hence my guess at it being a Lott senior.

[Ken Smith]

They aren't Baker machines Ken. If you look more closely you'll see that the front support for the turning key isn't separate. It's part of the brass backing plate. Baker didn't do this - but Lottt Senior did. As I'm sure you know, Lott sometimes made his own machines and this is one of the features that he sometimes used. Hence my guess at it being a Lott senior.

Ok, your a Brit, I'm a Yank.. I yield to the man in the Red Coat.. ;)

[Jim Mortimore]

but... if you look here the machines on this look remarkably like the bass in question...

http://www.thomasmartin.co.uk/sale_thomas_kennedy_double_bass.asp

[Ken Smith]

but... if you look here the machines on this look remarkably like the bass in question...

http://www.thomasmartin.co.uk/sale_thomas_kennedy_double_bass.asp

Yes, my attribution is to Kennedy and not Lott as I said and felt earlier. The Scroll and FFs point me there.
Do not be surprised if you see him list a Thomas Kennedy for some 6-figure price before long.

The body shape could be one of 6 different makers. The Gears, IF Original almost 'never' ID a bass with certainty. They are just parts added after the bass is made. Baker was not the old Gear maker in the 19th century. There were others. I don't think Lott made his own gears either. Maybe just made by a shop other than Baker that was less commonly seen.

[Chris Shaw]

As you say Ken, machines change. Especially when basses change from three to four strings as all of these early nineteenth century English basses have done. The idea of Lott making his own machines comes, amongst others, from Tom Martin. As he's probably seen and played more top quality basses than anyone else on the planet, I tend to go with him!

[Ken Smith]

As you say Ken, machines change. Especially when basses change from three to four strings as all of these early nineteenth century English basses have done. The idea of Lott making his own machines comes, amongst others, from Tom Martin. As he's probably seen and played more top quality basses than anyone else on the planet, I tend to go with him!

Lott 'making' his own machines and 'having them made' as in subcontracting are two different things. Regardless of all he (Tom Martin) has played, I have my own beliefs and ideas. No one I know is with out fault or mistake in the old bass ID game, no one!

Study if you can the Life of the 'English Born' John Lott (b.1775-76 and christened in 1776 in London, a year after his parents were married in that same church) and see what you come up with on where and who he worked for. The ability to make Gears is not something you do in a wood-type shop. You just don't go make a set here and there!

His father was John Lott as well, NOT a violin maker and MAY have been from Germany so the whole Lott is German thing is totally false unless we are talking blood line! This was discovered on or about 1998 and printed in the book 'The British Violin' from the convention of that year.

[Jim Mortimore]

a point I remember Tony made at the end of the auction was that he would have to pay at least x2 the hammer price to other bidders he had payed off not to bid on this bass.. funny old game... but I guess if if puts this bass up for sale in his shop for £80k and above he will be in profit.

[Chris Shaw]

I would imagine, Jim, that Tony will want a lot more than £80,000 for it. The last time I spoke to him was about a year ago, and he was looking for over £100,000 for most of his nicest basses. As for machine making Ken, Baker made both basses and machines so it can be done I guess.

[Anselm Hauke]

the bass looks like a kennedy to me. :rolleyes: