Roebuck Bass?

[Brian Casey]

So, I've been looking at older basses - with more complex sonorities than my Christopher 401F - around my area for a few months now.

I'm very curious about what any of you might be able to tell me about this bass. Here's what I know, from the seller:

- Turn of the Century carved German 7/8 with 42" SL
- Complete Restoration just finished by Don Kinch, Portland, Or.
- Formerly a Blockless Bass, added block was part of recent restoration
- Humped sides as they approach the heel, as seen in photos
- Reportedly made for Sears Roebuck for Mail Order business
(I've never heard of this, but the seller seems to consider it a real possibility...)

and my own impressions:

- Hat peg ends cut off; no longer rounded, but saw marks visible
- Varnish touched up and still a little tacky... ( I don't like the feel, but does this matter?)
- Nice, Big sound, but I think still settling in. Has the complexity of sound I'm looking for in a bass
- Neck feels like a V; not thick side to side, but seems very deep in the middle....Kind of uncomfortable and part o fmy hesitency, along with the cut Hat Pegs and 'sticky' varnish.

I'm just curious if anyone has anything specific to add from what I've mentioned ( especially the Sears Roebuck comment) or from the pictures.

This is in the top three basses I'm considering, and is the lowest asking price. (I'm not mentioning the asking price at this time to keep any replies uncolored by that information. I'll happily respond with the asking price upon request...)

I appreciate in advance thoughts or information any of you might offer on this instrunent.

brian

[Arnold Schnitzer]

I've seen the old Sears Roebuck catalogs where blockless basses were selling for $25 to 50. It's possible this was one of them. The "sticky" varnish is likely due to a recent polishing. The thick neck can be recontoured for not a lot of money. Hat pegs can be repaired with new peg shafts. So what's the problem?

How much?

[Brian Casey]

Thanks for your reply, Arnold.

There's really no problem with this bass. The seller and I both generally liked the sound, I am having a hard time adjusting to the feel (easily re-shaped neck, as you indicated, would help I'm sure)

My reluctance is based on a couple of other basses in town that 'spoke' to me with more immediacy. They are both, however, about $1000-1500 more than this one. The seller has his 'Roebuck' bass listed on our local Craisglist for $6750. I think he'll accept offer within 10% of that or so, but not less, I'm sure, since he just had it fully restored, with a new block, FB, corrections to poor repairs, etc. Just seems a little high to me for what it is and how it spoke to me. The other basses (an early 20th c. German, sold as an A. Wilfer, negotiated down to $6950 but needing a new FB soon and a turn of the c. Stowasser with an asking price of $8K; I'll offer 7 and see where it leads) just seemed to me to have a noticably bigger sound, richer resonance and warmth and felt more playable -to me...

I also have a couple photos of the removed top and inside of the bass, in the interest of full disclosure - seems like Ken's server is having problems; or mine is. I'll try to post the pictures of the insides a little later.

What's your take on this bass at around $6500 ?

brian

[Arnold Schnitzer]

It sounds very cheap. With several contenders within a small price range, you would be wise to go after the one that really speaks to you, even if it is a little more expensive. You might feel a temporary financial pinch, but this is your instrument, your voice we're talking about. In a year you will forget about the money. Please do yourself a favor and visit a luthier you trust for a pre-purchase inspection to make sure you are not buying yourself a bunch of problems. Also, if you have the chance, play the bass you really want in a large space, for a musician whose ears you trust. Better yet, take another bass player with you so you can listen from the business end.

[Brian Casey]

Thanks, Arnold.

I've been leaning toward your advice about spending a little extra to get what comes closest to the sound and feel I'm after, and your input has helped validate that.

To clarify, your statement that it sounds cheap indicates that you feel the price is a good one, right? (As opposed to something along the lines of the bass is cheaply made and not at the level of the asking price...)

I'll play each of the three basses I'm looking at again in the next week or two, hopefully in the same room. I just want to verify my initial responses to all these instruments before dropping that much cash.

Thanks again for your comments. whatever I end up buying, I'll post in the appropriate section here to get as much information as I can about my new bass...

brian

[Ken Smith]

I know of these Basses as 'Blockless Wonders'. Recently one came over to my shop as a possible trade-in. It sounded great but needed a ton of work. Also, the Bass looked to be well over 100 years old and with its distress could easily pass for 150-200 years old. I called and discussed this Bass with our esteemed Arnold and he quickly put me on the right path.

I know now about the Sears thing but for just how long have these Basses been in production? I have seen at least 5 varieties of 'raised' Neck Block model Basses. They include the German-Tyrol version that some call Italian, another that seems to be made closer to the Bohemian region, an occasional Italian Bass with a slightly raised Block and recently I examined a late 19th century English Bass made by an unknown maker with his handwritten label inside the Bass. The 5th version are the Yankee Prescott School Basses we see with raised Blocks as well.

Most of these Basses are flatbacked. I have personally owned two of them and they both had a Block in them. One was a 'small 7/8ths/large 3/4' labeled 'Sebastian Klotz 1791' with a flatback and the other was a '5/8ths/small 3/4' with a roundback and seemed to be fairly old. The 5/8ths was fully purfled and had a beautiful tone. The 7/8 was never used by me as I bought it on a 2-week gig in Pittsburgh (1975) and popped the Top in the hotel room to start the restoration asap. It badly needed repairs and popping the top then assured it would not get played. I sold that Bass years later with 90% of the work completed.

I understand from Arnold that the 'Blockless' design is an old Gamba/Viol technique stemming back centuries but made famous in southern Germany near or in the Tyrol/Tirol some 100+ years ago. The Sears & Roebuck imports seems to have supplied many musicians with good sounding new Basses possibly less expensive than other French, German and Italian Basses brought over by individuals.

These Basses were often made with ultra thin tops which helped them to sound good at an early age. Down the road however this has proven to be its downfall. The Bass I had in the shop recently was termed as being 'negative value'. This being because the restoration would cost more then the value of the Bass. I informed the current owner that being it is a good sounding Basses and still playable as-is, use it in pit jobs or other situations where you would not bring a good Bass and consider it your extended insurance premium.

Many Basses exist now that need massive repairs and restorations that cost more than the Value of the Bass and these are not just Blockless Wonders either. One such fine early 20th century German Bass recently came thru my shop as well and it too had a dilemma. It sounds great and plays fine as-is. It does however need a full restoration in order to receive a clean bill of health. The estimated sale value of the Bass in its current condition is 10k. If restored for a minimum of 6-8k, the value fully restored would be only 12-15k max! Doing the math it is easy to see the Bass is worth more left alone. To me though as a dealer it is worth the total restored value less the needed restoration which is only about 4k using the lowest value and highest repair cost (12-8). In my mind there is still no profit in that purchase price because I would only be breaking even and investing quite a sum to do so.

Why am I writing all this? For one, to educate others and warn them as well that buying an old Bass without a complete inspection by a professional Bass Luthier can be a huge mistake. Secondly to bring to light these Blockless Basses so we can all learn more about them and that there is more than one origin for them with the Tyrol often being the main source.

One Bass I have owned for years and used as well in every possible setting is in great shape visually for a 100+ year old Bass. The only problem is that the Repairs inside being done by many over time are not done that well at all. I was recently informed after an inspection that it would be best and an improvement if the Top was 'popped' and everything re-repaired at an estimated cost of 5k. The Top looks perfect without any sinking but some cracks needed some re-gluing. This caused the internal inspection discovering the poorly done existing repairs from decades ago before I ever owned the Bass. This good sounding handmade Bass which was also Blockless at the start is worth the restoration mainly due to a combination of what it is totally worth after and what I will have spent up until that point. The 'math' is good here!:cool:

Do the Math and consult the best people you can. Get more then one opinion when possible and spend your money wisely. Then go home and practice. This Beethoven's 9th is killing me...lol;) Having a nice practice Bass at home (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Bollbach/images/full_FR.jpg) helps too!:)

[Dan Schulte]

I am the owner of the bass in question, the blockless wonder in Mr Casey's photos. I'd be glad to answer any questions regarding the bass. Its a largish old bass with a mature sound that is getting better as all the moving parts are new including the bass bar.
DS July 4 2007 Happy Holidays

[Ken Smith]

Both Arnold and myself have a lot of experience with these kind of Basses. He has repaired and restored many of them as well as play every Bass that goes thru the shop. I have owned several Basses that were born as Blockless but were blocked when I got them. I have also played a few of them owned by other players that were still Blockless. One Bass I bought in 1975 had the raised neck block but had a block already. Some of these Basses may also have an integral Bassbar as I did shave one out of that Bass and put a Bar in it when I did the restoration on it which was one of the few I did way back when.

These Basses being at least 100 years old on average or older can sound good. Most have thin tops. Mine was a large/long 7/8ths labeled Sebastian Klotz, 1791. Was it a Klotz? I doubt it but it sounded great before I took off the top. I never played it again as it was sold just before completion to another Bassist/Repairer who was looking for a projects and he took two such Basses off my hands at that time.

My Batchelder Bass also seems to have been made Blockless as well. I mentioned the Klotz in my previous post but not the Batchelder. In either case, you can see the Batchelder here (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/BatchBass/batchBass.htm) to get an idea of what I am talking about. It has a Block and Bassbar now but due to its type of Back Construction (half mortise) it is not fully lined. This is a job Arnold may do if his bench clears up and it doesn't get sold in the mean time. It is 100% healthy at the moment but tightening up the insides (which seem to have been repaired by many people), will most likely improve the already good tone it has.

[Ken Smith]

I just acquired a Blockless Bass that I have known for many years. The condition would be in my opinion poor cosmetically but structurally I would say fair and tonally good-to-very good.

I have always liked this particular Bass and it has been offered to me in various ways from direct sale to trade value towards a more expensive Bass to trade for a high grade Bow or a Smith Electric Bass.

I wont divulge the details of the transaction for various reasons, the main one being, 'it doesn't really matter' but I will say that I have it now and own it personally.

I have been playing it for the last two days and the tone is quite deep, smooth and loud. Looking at it and then hearing it especially when I compared it to my other Basses that are in good health or even recently restored is a pleasant surprise. I played it against the Batchelder, Martini, Gilkes and Hart Basses I have here. Results: "It can hold it's own".;)

Currently it is string with D'Addario Helicore Orchestra model Solo Gauge strings. A few months ago I took these off and tried them on my Cornerless Bass just to see how the strings work on a Bass I know and put some old FlatChromes on the Blockless. Both Basses sounded good with either string as they are both dark smooth sounding Basses.

The tone of this Blockless I would describe as deep and smooth with the Bow and although soft sounding, has plenty of volume. It also spreads well in the low end as well. For Jazz Pizz (still with the Helicore Solos) it has a nice deep ping with a quick thump-like 'attack & decay' but sustains the note as well. It sounds kind of Italianish to me mostly.

I have an outdoor Jazz Gig in about 2 weeks and I am thinking of using this Bass. I will bring in my Shadow Pickup (Underwood copy/model) and see how well it works. I still have to tweak some of the set-up issues to 'call it my own' but that wont take much as it's pretty close to how I like it now. The Bridge and Fingerboard arch is a bit shallow for Bowing but I can get by on it. It looks to have been set up for Jazz. The string spacing is equaled between the strings and not center to center. The centers taper wider towards the E-string. This is not what I like but it will do for now.

I think this is a regular sized Bass or 3/4 as we know it today. Here are the dimensions for comparison purposes;

Top Length; 43"
to Back Button; 44 1/4"
Top Bout: 21"
Middle Bout: 14 3/4"
Lower Bout: 25 1/2"
String Length with the Bridge cheated on top of the Notches is 42" but centered at the Notches almost 43" with an Eb Neck.
Ribs; 8 1/2" (inside Top&Back), 7" at the Neck.

The Bass feels more like a 7/8ths in my hands but the numbers say otherwise. Perhaps with the broader upper shoulders and longer string length it is on the full 3/4 scale of the olden days. I will call this just 'Orchestral size Double Bass'

I will post Pics as soon as I get the time to make a page on it in my DB section of the Smith Website. This I will post a few. The Back has beautiful tight flamed maple as do the Ribs. The Back though is the best I have seen on a Blockless and for its age, in good shape. The Problem lies with the Top mainly as it has sunk since its last restoration in 1995. The Bridge adjusters are way up on the E foot as compared to the G, about 3/8ths" higher on the E. The Ribs were lined with Linen many years ago and have 'buckled' in spots. This Bass was purchase over 2 decades ago and repaired by several Luthiers 'of various Schools of Thought' if you can call it that. The former owner used this Bass for Jazz mainly and strung the Bass with Spiro Reds. The Neck has barely 15mm of Overstand with a pitched maple shim on the original Beechwood Neck. The Bridge with very low string height is now 6 3/4" with a fairly high Top arch which is higher on the G side with no sinkage at all then it is on the E side. The sinkage is mainly in the lower Bassbar area of the Top up to the Bridge and tapering as it moves upwards. The current break angle from what I can measure is way over 40 degrees measuring from the A-string.

This Bass has had a hard life with some (but not all) marginal repairs. The set-up and usage of this Bass in the last decade or so has not been positive nor considerate of the condition of the Bass or its weaknesses.

For now, it is playable as-is regardless of how 'deformed' it may look. If this Bass could sound at least as good as it does now with a full and complete restoration, I would put that on the schedule as well. As Arnold has mentioned before, these Basses can often be the poor mans Italian Bass. This one certainly has that sound and I plan on using it in situations where a less expensive Bass would be safer to bring out in both Orchestral and Jazz settings until at which time the Bass can be taken in for Restoration.

As far as origin and age goes as usual it's all a mystery. The Bass looks easily 200 years old but this may not be the case. However, it has quite a bit of oxidation showing inside. I am not sure if this is a Tyrolean or a Bohemian Blockless Bass as I have heard of both these attributions.

Lets discuss the Origin part 'after' I put some pictures up in the new Thread (see below).

New Thread started here; http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?p=8987#post8987