Magazines & Advertising

[Ken Smith]

Even though this is MY Forum, I can't find a better place to put this Thread other than here in the Bull Pit. It IS Bass related but more of a general overall Bass Equipment topic addressing the subject of where one might look for information about Bass products in general.

Decades ago the only two Magazines I was aware of in USA was 'Down Beat' and 'Guitar Player' Magazines. When I started my Bass business there were a few other Music Magazines for Guitar and Music/Instrumentalists in general. To advertise my Basses, Guitar Player was the main Book. Then came Guitar World and a few others which have come and gone, been modified, sliced, diced and sold from company to company that puts out Magazines.

Then came Bass Player (from Guitar Player) and more recently Bass Guitar (from Guitar World). Most companies in addition to placing Ads in the Mags sent out Brochures on request but most of this was before the Internet boom of the last 10 years and mainly the last 5 years if you look at the increase in on-line commerce.

Many printing companies that I know of have either modified their services or just plain closed up and went Out of Business (aka OOB). This is because by the time you make a Catalog or Brochure and distribute it, the information may already be out of date. Also, people picking up a Catalog may not know if the information is current or not.

How do you keep your information current and up to date as well as making it accessible for people to see it without having to wait for it in the mail or next months magazine? <<<INTERNET>>>

I have found that the Web IS the best place to show what you have and the easiest to make changes to. Two years ago we told Bass Player Magazine to take a hike. They had almost the same number of readers for the last 15 years. I was not getting much response from readers from what I could see but did notice that my Website traffic was booming and I didn't have to compete with any other companies once they were on my Website.

So, before I go on and on into todays Music marketing, where do you guys go for information about product?. Do you still buy and read magazines, surf the Net, go to your local K-MarguitarCenter to find your Stradivariouscaster Bass or your Fenderagliano Double Bass w/ Bow (arrows not included) or what?

Where do you look to see what's what??

[Marcus Johnson]

Hey Ken... I don't even buy mags anymore, but I'm probably not the typical shopper, since all I buy at this point are strings, rosin, and luthier services. I enjoy Double Bassist and some of the jazz mags. The ads in most magazines now serve as a portal to the advertiser's websites anyway.

A typical web session will usually include a look at my Email, a glance at the news headlines, and then a stop at this forum and at TalkBass DB forums. Magazines don't even enter the picture unless I'm on the road and looking for something to read on the plane. I'd rather just Email you, or any of my other aquaintances whose opinion I value, if I have a specific question regarding a given product.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Pretty much the same here. I buy Double Bassist and on the rare occasion, Bass Player. Why? I want to learn the bass line to Silly Love Songs, of course.:D. In Tab to boot.
Information on the Net is both instantaneous and fluid. The ability to converse with people and get their 'real world' experience is invaluable. Magazines exist to sell product. Has anyone ever seen a negative equipment review in a major music or electronics rag? Lukewarm maybe, but they have to sell advertising. Forums like TB or this spot allow for more feedback and experience from those actually using the product. It is more grass roots rather than being force fed whatever the mags are selling this month.

[Ken Smith]

I wanna put some info here to consider.

First off, I though TAB was a Diet soda from Coca Cola!:confused:

I am doing Beethoven's 9th this week. Can you imagine learning, playing or reading this in Tab? It's a bad way to learn as it has its limits. Like training wheels on a Bike. Like Bumpers in the gutters at the Bowling Alley. Like the extra brake and Steering wheel when you take Driving lessons. IT'S NOT REAL!!!!! It's Toy talk in my book because it is very limited. I will pay to see someone play the entire 4th movement of the 9th while reading it in TAB if it is at all possible to notate (if 'Notate' is the right term). You must not use anything else to learn it and have never played it before either. It must be played with an Orchestra and a Conductor up to Tempo and played well. Any takers?

Ok, enough of my TAB rant. Ever see a person walk into a Pizzeria and order two slices with EXTRA Cheese and a DIET soda? Who are the trying to fool?..lol, Diet soda. ......... Ok.. I'm done there.. really.. lol

Ok, serious now.. Bass Product advertising. Yes, the Magazines are full of crap with most of the reviews. They don't walk into a shop and grab one off the line and test it. They are sent one picked out to be the best of the batch and then reviewed to help the companies sales so they will buy more advertising.. Ever see a BIGGER conflict of interest before? It's like watching Politics on CNN. They know in advance the answers to the Test and THEN make up the questions to make it fit.. lol.. WHAT A JOKE!!

To the novice, magazines like Toys seem to be fun. I like pictures myself so DB Mag from the UK is good but not enough to go around. We need more REAL DB stuff. My Website has as much as a dozen issues so I end up reading my own site when I'm bored..lol

Stories about musicians are good too as long as they are 100% true and accurate. Looking accurate does not make it true all the time by the way. I have read many stories about myself and company in Magazines, the Web and Local Newspapers. The writers often try and add color altering the facts which really bugs me. One time I was called up to verify some facts and did so but when the story came out, it had other viewpoints in there as well to benefit the 'pilot fish (http://www.scubaduba.com/gallery/shark2.jpg)' (they pick up scraps) that were not so true but seemed accurate and pleased the others involved as far as who did what when. So, Magazines are just Politics in Advertising. The main source of income for any media is Advertising and NOT sales. That's a cold fact and the Media does well NOT to bite the hand that feeds them!:mad:

So, how long will it be before the WEB is the main source of Equipment discovery and the magazines find a spot in the Museum of Natural History next to the other Dinosaurs?

[Steve_M]

Ken, as far as I can see the internet is already the best place to go for information. They've repeatedly tried to revive bass magazines here in the UK but they don't seem to last. There's a market but people find the internet is more immediate, relevant and accessible.

I believe (from looking at the forum I run) that the biggest bottle neck in a potential decision making process over purchasing equipment now is getting access to the gear itself so people can make their own judgements. The large majority of members on our forum own brands that are commonly found in shops because they're getting a known quantity. Their instruments may not be perfect but because they've tried it, they know what they're getting for their hard earned wonga.

Forums help people openly share information about their experiences of owning and playing certain brands - and the the after sales service is becoming critical these days. There are a handful of people (including myself) who are prepared to take a leap of faith with a manufacturer on reputation alone but most people won't do that.

On the forum I help run, we arrange reviews of any instruments that a manufacturer wants to send us - haven't done many of those yet but we put sound clips up as well as the usual photos. Sound clips have proven to be very useful. I know from one bass I reviewed called a 'Mule' I was very impressed with the workmanship for the cost of the bass but the guy messed up wiring the earths in his circuit and the bass always sounded muffled. We put clips up and took the wiring issues up with him on the forum. He accepted our points without question and stated he was going to sort the problems out next time. Despite the wiring issues he STILL had about 6 enquiries about making a bass.

We also organise meet ups every 6 months. People get to try out each others basses and amps. There are often some surprises in matching actual performance to marketing hype with some equipment. We've been able to do direct comparisons between basses by F-bass, Celinder, Alembic, Smith, Musicman, Pedulla and many UK based builders such as Jaydee, Shuker, Status and AGC. I'm sure this has influenced members buying decisions and helped them expand away from the usual high street retail offerings.

[stan haskins]

I've never, ever made a purchase based on something I read in a magazine. However, I've made an embarrassing amount of purchases based on stuff I've read here and at TBDB. I haven't touched a slab for years, and I'll just use my Fender when I decide to, though.

Off-topic: this thread made me think of my teenage years, taking EB lessons with a funk bassist in a "music store" situation. His name was (is still, I hope) Mibbit Thretts. Anyone know him? Great guy - it just occured to me he played a Smith bass. It sounded great . . .

[Flint Buchanan]

I happen to believe that even though the "tech bubble" burst a few years ago, there was still a paradigm shift in western culture that cannot be reversed-short of catastrophic meltdown of the grid and communications. I think of it as nothing short of the importance of the creation of the movable-type printing press.

I, like most of my generation, get almost all my information from the web. In fact I won't go near a deal unless I can dig up some kind of 'digital footprint'.

The real question, that hasn't been completely answered, is how do you break through and make that first contact that will help someone to find you online. Google, and other search engines have incredible search architecture, and things will only get better. This is where there needs to be a change in printing/publishing.

[Jeff Tranauskas]

Ken,
Recently I cleaned out a closet and came across an old "BASS PLAYER" magazine dated 1993.
There is an article in the mag detailing new inovations in pickup design.
You are a contributer to the article.
There is a picture of you in your office in much younger form.
I currently receive "Double Bassist" magazine and I like the free sheet music the best.
I do read the all of the mag and sometimes use the information to make purchase decisions.
I also visit your website whenver I want drool on my computer.:eek:

[Ken Smith]

Magazines are fun especially when they have nice Bass pictures and good articles to read. In a 100-150 page magazine a single advertiser is competing for attention 'when' it gets read.

At this very moment there are 99 people on this Forum. Only 8 are signed in members. How much does this Forum or even my Website cost me in comparison? A tiny tiny fraction as compared to print ads and the material here on-line is refreshed and updated several times daily. How much does one pay to read a Forum like this or a Bass Website like mine? ZERO!

How much Product competition do I have on the Forum or my Website? Zero as well!

How many unique visits do I receive daily between the two? Over 2,000 a day, 24/7, 365 days a year and growing quickly.

My Website averaged about 400 visits a day 4-5 years ago. Last year it averaged over 1,100 a day and currently it has almost doubled this year and since we started this Forum. The Forum is hitting over 700 a day and growing as well.

A few months ago Bass Player called me to sell ME banner ads at a per click rate. Mind you, THEY canceled my Subscription to the Magazine and now they asked me to advertise with them? What were they thinking?

Anyway, I told them they would benefit more form a Banner ad on my Forum/Website than I might on theirs. Just my opinion!

[Dennis Michaels]

I get most of my info from the "net". If I really need the right info I call Don or Ken. When I take on a new student, I tell the to cancel any subscriptions they have to bass rags. There are more adds than info... these are all "Pizza Box" adds as well. "You've tried the rest now try the best"... "The best built basses inthe world",You owe it to yourself to play ours"...and on and on. How can 125 bass companies build the "best"? Isn't the best the undisputed #1? I find EB players as a whole tend to be more gear driven than practice driven when it comes to excuses as to why they can't do something. I teach at Middletown Music in Middletown De. and taught lessons on a "Hello Kitty Daisy" bass. I taught with the price tag hanging $289... finally a student bought it because even tho it was pink and looked like a daisy, there must have been some magic in it because I could play it. I thought I was proving gear didn't matter when you are learning. Boy was I wrong.


http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c233/Fretlessboy/IMG_2136.jpg

[Mark Mazurek]

The Web IS the best way to show your stuff.

That being said, places like TB and such are easily the main source for purchase researching.

I ended up there when bass shopping, and have an Upton Bass being delivered today (12 wks later). I admit to being a little impatient, but I would imagine I'm more like a standard web customer.

Doing more research (or simply 'listening' to everyone more) over the last 12 weeks has changed my perspective a bit. I would not have ordered this bass knowing what I now know. I would have definitely hopped into a plane and flew to the Upton shop. I'd also have checked out all the basses within 50 miles of me (which would include the whole Chicago area and parts of Indiana and Wisconsin). I 'might' have ended up with a different bass. Who knows.

I'm certainly happy with my KSB bow (thanks again Ken), which was just purchased a week ago. Again, due to web research mostly (which led to my call to you).

Real Bass shops are 'around', but have to be sought out. Some luthiers don't even have a website, just an email address.

Didn't even browse through a bass mag at Borders.


Hope this is useful info from a 'very' current consumer.

Mark

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

....... and taught lessons on a "Hello Kitty Daisy" bass. I taught with the price tag hanging $289...


A local dealer plays a nice '71 P bass that is original down to the ash tray and pup cover. He told me that he played it for a youth group at his church recently. A young boy came up and asked him,"don't you own a music store"? He said that he did. "Then why don't you buy a better bass"?:D

The irony is that he bought it from a school for $1000 because the young music teacher thought it looked ugly and wanted to buy her students something new and shiny. :eek:

[Ken Smith]

A local dealer plays a nice '71 P bass that is original down to the ash tray and pup cover. He told me that he played it for a youth group at his church recently. A young boy came up and asked him,"don't you own a music store"? He said that he did. "Then why don't you buy a better bass"?:D

The irony is that he bought it from a school for $1000 because the young music teacher thought it looked ugly and wanted to buy her students something new and shiny. :eek:

In 1967 I bought my first Fender P from Manny's in NY. It was $167. period. A plywood Juzek/Lang Bass was $200. from Juzek at Met. Music in NY.

Plain-Jane generic Basses from that era have gone up about 10 fold if not more. Who knew?

Ok, on the can't you get a better one... I was playing an outdoor Jazz/swing (I'm flexible that way..lol) concert locally with a 6-pc group (pno, bs, dr, gtr, trt, tnsx). I was using my Gilkes Bass (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/GilkesBass/GilkesBass.htm) but before its recent restoration (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/GilkesBass/b4.htm). I told the leader/singer/guitarist about my famous Bass and its connection to King George etc.. On a break she tells her husband about this old Bass (1814) I was using on stage. Her husband said 'well, if he's so good then why can't he afford a new one'!:confused:

I think he was kidding!...lol:D

[Dennis Michaels]

now that is funny:)

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

If Fender basses (and their ilk) were good enough for Jamerson, Jaco and countless others, they are good enough for me.

I don't expect to own an 1814 DB anytime soon. Funny story:D.

[David Powell]

I have a admission to make. I have never purchased a guitar or bass magazine. I have seen several, but they were always passed along from friends. The main driver for the music / bass equipment I purchased was what I heard people playing on stage. This was for many years. I will admit also that during the past 30 years almost all the magazines I read were photography related. I can see photography in a magazine, but music? That you have to hear. So when I went to see performers I got to hear the gear. That's how I knew what different amps and basses sounded like and which ones I thought I could use. I remember seeing loads of bassists I admired using Fenders and Rickenbackers. So I bought a Fender because I wanted to sound like Roger Waters and Geezer Butler and I couldn't afford to sound like Chris Squire and Geddy Lee. I bought a Peavey amp because I saw Robin Trower's bassist using the same model and I could afford that but I really wanted a V6B like the one George Biondi of Steppenwolf was using. You could hear it so well anywhere in a large venue. My brother and I shopped for stuff we saw other people using on stage. Same with my Marshall and Gibson SG. It was the combination Donald Roeser and Tony Iomi were using so I knew what the sound of it was. If I saw something in a magazine, I'd probably be skeptical until I saw someone using it. The first time I knew what an Alembic sounded like it was from seeing a fellow playing one at the Dothan Civic Center;- in the Cate Brothers band. They weren't famous, but the sound was something you couldn't help but notice. That bass sounded amazing. Then Joe Bouchard of Blue Oyster Cult started using one and I was a huge fan of that band, so for a while I thought those were the ultimate;- until Joe went back to using his P. Still though, Stanley Clarke used one when I saw him and several other players began to use them. I thought the sound was phenomenal, like a grand piano. It was the first thing I heard that blew the Fenders and Rics off the map.

The first time I saw a Ken Smith was in a guitar player magazine ad. Later I saw someone playing one, but I can't remember who it was now. I remember thinking that this was a good thing, first Alembic and now Ken Smith. I thought they were something like Alembic in concept. It looked like Ken was taking the instrument well beyond the point Fender and Rickenbacker were and that these were going to be the thing to get. Also a bit more practical than Alembic and not as heavy. Sleeker. That was probably in the late 70's. During most of the eighties and nineties I bought only really odd hand made musical instruments. No basses at all. Of course for years I didn't buy much other than cameras and photo gear. I was a professional photographer so my Fender was enough for me all those years and I used the Peavey head for a couple of decades also. When I got tired of carrying the huge cab, I just trusted what the fellow at Clark music recommended, no magazines involved. I traded the huge Peavey system for a Fender RAD. Call it downsizing!

The recent gear I have purchased was mostly found on the internet, but not the basses, just the accessories. In fact I will be buying an SD systems condenser mic that I found on the web looking for that type of mic and then found two very strong endorsements for it on talkbass.

When I started playing in bands again in the late nineties, I was used to researching anything and everything on the web, and I turned to the web to locate musical instruments and accessories. It just made sense by then. The first thing I wanted was a double bass. I found Bob Gollihur's site ironically after I had already heard about the instruments he was importing through another player in Savannah. When I upgraded my bass guitar finally, I just went into the Atlanta Bass Gallery and bought the best 5 string fretless they had that day. No internet, no magazine. For better or worse, they did not have a Ken Smith 5 string fretless. I feel almost certain that if they had that I would have bought that one because I knew Ken from talkbass and had known about his instruments for years. Even though I had been reading and posting on talkbass, I never read the EBG side. Not once even;- until after I had already tried and bought two new basses. It was irrelevant. I could go into the Atlanta Bass Gallery and try a bunch of cream of the crop instruments. I must have tried half a dozen that I had never heard of. The only ones that I had any forethought about were Modulus and Ken Smith. Why? Because Phil Lesh was using both. My main electric gig is a Grateful Dead tribute band and I needed something that could get the kind of tone he is known for. And I really needed it then, not in six months. Here again, what are the people I want to sound like playing? For some odd reason I also was dead set on a fretless. Well, ABG had neither one. No Modulus 5 string fretless, No KSB 5 string fretless. So I played everything they had with 5 strings and no frets and wound up with a Ritter, which is a very good bass. I'd never heard of him until that day. It just sounded good. Very good in fact and I thought of what was there in 5 string fretless, it was the best. The best fretted bass I played that day (and the only fretted bass I even checked out) was a KSB Black Tiger. It was great;- but I wasn't there for a fretted bass. I know. It sounds strange but you couldn't have sold me Bridgett Fonda with frets that day.

Now that I have a matched pair of Ritter 5-ers (Yep, the next week I decided that on the safe side I needed frets just in case and wanted something as functionally like the fretless as possible) and I have the luxury of time, I can get the Ken Smiths custom, just like I want them, and wait for them. So I guess when I order them, they will be the first basses I have bought that I first saw in a magazine;- way back in the late 1970's (You see Ken, that full page ad was worth it!) But I would be buying them because of the players I've heard playing them and the sound.

The only magazine I still have a subscription to is Rangefinder. It is a commercial photography magazine. I learn about basses on this forum and the other one, but I still listen to what people are playing mostly or what I can try out at Atlanta Bass Gallery. Jim Rubio has everything that I would be interested in and he is a sole proprietor running his own shop. I don't think I would ever buy a bass guitar anywhere else now. Double basses, if I'm in the market again, will be very careful try before buy deals.

[Ken Smith]

Years and years ago I was reading thru some promo material of one of the magazines. Included in the promo pack was a 'reader survey'. One of the questions was, if they buy instruments that are related to famous names using the? I would have thought this to be a biggie response wise but no, it wasn't. The biggie was that they but what they like after feeling and testing it out themselves.

This was back in the early '80s when I had time to read these 'bull crap' surveys. A persons ego filling out a form wont let him say he need to see a star playing it because his own judgment was superior to that of a rock star he would lick the feet of if given the chance. This was a Guitar Magazine focused mostly on Rock and as you know back in the '80s and even today, if some guy with fast licks, tight pants and a pin cushion face makes the cover of a magazine, those kids at home reading the magazine will jump up yelling "mommy, mommy, I want that!".. lol

Sad, but true!

Now, in my business when the magazines would approach me about that type of player ad or even a top player asking for an endorsement my answer was "Anthony Jackson doesn't care what Stanley Clarke plays!"

As at that time, they were both Smith customers and neither gave a rats behind what tools the other used. My Basses were mainly over 2k then and even though people bought them because they were seen, it wasn't because of 'who' was playing one but more like 'what' was that guy playing!

Around 1983 or so I was in my booth at the Chicago Namm show when a Japanese guy came up to me and said "your Bass is the most Famous in Japan". I was thinking how? I never sold any there. BUT, a few guys who had them like Anthony, Stanley and maybe one or two more had traveled to Japan using them. No names were mentioned about who played my Basses, just that the Bass itself was Famous.

It was around that time if not earlier that I took on the belief that making famous players models was not in my best interest. The Basses we made for Anthony would not at all be something I would market. Also, my BT model made then was a better playing Bass than what Anthony had requested so he could have his own one-of-a-kind Bass. Hey, let the Chef Cook the way he knows how to!:mad:

So, going with your gut feelings is sometimes the best voice you have to listen to! 'Go with what you know' as they say...;)

[Dennis Michaels]

All I know is you build the perfect basses "for me". I play them and don't really care who else does. Thank god many do tho or you may not be here today.

[David Powell]

I think when I was younger it made more difference to me who was playing which guitar through what, but that was greatly connected to the signature sound of the gear as well. Like Ritchie Blackmore just wouldn't have sounded the same on a Gibson, nor would Donald Roeser sound the same on a strat. For instance when I saw Geddy Lee, he used a Rickenbacker for almost all of the set, and switched to a Fender for Working Man only. He was still Geddy Lee, but the sound that stuck in my head was the sound of the Rickenbacker. When he switched to the Fender, he sounded different. It probably wouldn't have mattered who was playing those two basses, I could hear a certain sound there. And I never would have liked Rickenbacker based on a photo of Geddy Lee holding one. I'd have to hear him playing it. Same with the other gear. Hearing it in a live situation in a big hall was how my preferences developed.

If I remember right, the first Smith bass I saw live I didn't know what it was and it wasn't a particularly famous player then, but he might be by now. I made certain that I could remember the headstock, because the sound was really clear and full. The note definition was quite remarkable. Of course the fellow had great technique, but there is a great deal of the live sound that has to do with the instrument. The guy was playing with Maynard Ferguson's band in a pretty large school auditorium and I was pretty far in the back. So it is good to have that distinctive headstock because it really was a kind of "What is he playing" kind of thing. And after I checked out what had that headstock, I could spot a Ken Smith visually as well as by sound. During the eighties, those headstocks began to pop up with great regularity among the better pro players I saw.

I guess I still pay attention to what I see being played, but if I can get hold of one to play, that makes more difference. And I think my tastes in sound have changed, perhaps refined a bit as I listen to different music types. One instrument that really impressed me when I first saw it was the Clevinger. So I have a question that I'll frame Ken. In that you play fine double basses but build electric basses, have you ever considered building an electric bass that could be bowed double bass style? The name "electric upright" has never sat to well with me, I'd prefer "electric double bass" as a name for a vertical electric bass that has arco capability.

[Ken Smith]

I think when I was younger it made more difference to me who was playing which guitar through what, but that was greatly connected to the signature sound of the gear as well. Like Ritchie Blackmore just wouldn't have sounded the same on a Gibson, nor would Donald Roeser sound the same on a strat. For instance when I saw Geddy Lee, he used a Rickenbacker for almost all of the set, and switched to a Fender for Working Man only. He was still Geddy Lee, but the sound that stuck in my head was the sound of the Rickenbacker. When he switched to the Fender, he sounded different. It probably wouldn't have mattered who was playing those two basses, I could hear a certain sound there. And I never would have liked Rickenbacker based on a photo of Geddy Lee holding one. I'd have to hear him playing it. Same with the other gear. Hearing it in a live situation in a big hall was how my preferences developed.

If I remember right, the first Smith bass I saw live I didn't know what it was and it wasn't a particularly famous player then, but he might be by now. I made certain that I could remember the headstock, because the sound was really clear and full. The note definition was quite remarkable. Of course the fellow had great technique, but there is a great deal of the live sound that has to do with the instrument. The guy was playing with Maynard Ferguson's band in a pretty large school auditorium and I was pretty far in the back. So it is good to have that distinctive headstock because it really was a kind of "What is he playing" kind of thing. And after I checked out what had that headstock, I could spot a Ken Smith visually as well as by sound. During the eighties, those headstocks began to pop up with great regularity among the better pro players I saw.

I guess I still pay attention to what I see being played, but if I can get hold of one to play, that makes more difference. And I think my tastes in sound have changed, perhaps refined a bit as I listen to different music types. One instrument that really impressed me when I first saw it was the Clevinger. So I have a question that I'll frame Ken. In that you play fine double basses but build electric basses, have you ever considered building an electric bass that could be bowed double bass style? The name "electric upright" has never sat to well with me, I'd prefer "electric double bass" as a name for a vertical electric bass that has arco capability.

First, I don't know who the player was with Maynard. At first I though Gordon Johnson but he was with Chuck Mangione.

Second, the Bowable Bass has been made and exhibited in my Booth both at the NY Guitar Show (c.1986?) and NAMM a time or two back then but I was not the maker or brand. We did make some Fingerboards for the maker and sold him some parts as well. The builders name was Danny Augustino and he called it the 'Bass-o-lin'.

[Anselm Hauke]

bass-o-lin?
http://www.otheroom.com/namm98/Inst.htm

[Ken Smith]

bass-o-lin?
http://www.otheroom.com/namm98/Inst.htm

Thx, you found it;

http://www.otheroom.com/namm98/images/Bassolin.jpg

NAMM, 1998;
And now for the bass players that might have felt left out in the previous item, here's the Bass O Lin.This is an instrument that's happy being played like an electric bass, upright bass and as a bowed bass. There are something like ten different playing positions between strapping it on and using it upright. There are fretted and fretless models available.
Dan Agostino
Lanoka Harbor, New Jersey, USA
(609)971-1643
or (914)942-5123


I have no idea if his contact info it current from 10 years ago, sry. contasy

[Tim Bishop]

All I know is you build the perfect basses "for me". I play them and don't really care who else does. Thank god many do tho or you may not be here today.

I'm totally with you Dennis and I've always said that: "Ken makes a bass that is perfect for me and there just happens to be an S on the head-stock". Never have given "a rip" less about what magazines and/or endorsements show (unless of course it's Eden's and Smith's ;) ).

A recent experience I'll attempt to keep short.......

I recently (and reluctantly) sold one of my favorite Smiths (a '97 Tiger Maple 5GN) to an acquaintance and bassist. Wonderful individual and player and I was totally wanting to help him out by fixing him up with THE bass. Understand, he was accustomed to a bolt-on neck feel (there's another thread on this topic, so, don't want to get into that debate here), so, a neck-thru would be a new experience for him.

I set the bass up perfectly for him (as we discussed set-up beforehand) before I shipped. At any rate, when he received the bass and played it, he later decided it was not the bass for him....:confused:....come again....say what! This was the first time I EVER ran across anyone that wasn't pleased with a Smith. His decision was totally based on feel as I clearly understood and prepared him for that beforehand. So, I asked him "did you change anything"? To my dismay, he responded, "yes, I changed the strings from Taper Core Mediums to Lights" (which changed the set-up as we had initially discussed) .... :mad: .... errghhhhh!!! .... I said to myself: Take a deeeeeep breath in, now breeeeathhhh out......repeat.....ok.....

Yeah, I know, another lesson learned. Just goes to prove, you cannot please everyone (particularly those that don't understand the importance of set-ups). Had I anticipated this, I would have NEVER sold that bass. I'm hoping, as I've discussed with him, he will give it more time to work out the "feel thing", otherwise, I will be working toward getting that bass back ASAP! :)

[David Powell]

I'm totally with you Dennis and I've always said that: "Ken makes a bass that is perfect for me and there just happens to be an S on the head-stock". Never have given "a rip" less about what magazines and/or endorsements show (unless of course it's Eden's and Smith's ;) ).

A recent experience I'll attempt to keep short.......

I recently (and reluctantly) sold one of my favorite Smiths (a '97 Tiger Maple 5GN) to an acquaintance and bassist. Wonderful individual and player and I was totally wanting to help him out by fixing him up with THE bass. Understand, he was accustomed to a bolt-on neck feel (there's another thread on this topic, so, don't want to get into that debate here), so, a neck-thru would be a new experience for him.

I set the bass up perfectly for him (as we discussed set-up beforehand) before I shipped. At any rate, when he received the bass and played it, he later decided it was not the bass for him....:confused:....come again....say what! This was the first time I EVER ran across anyone that wasn't pleased with a Smith. His decision was totally based on feel as I clearly understood and prepared him for that beforehand. So, I asked him "did you change anything"? To my dismay, he responded, "yes, I changed the strings from Taper Core Mediums to Lights" (which changed the set-up as we had initially discussed) .... :mad: .... errghhhhh!!! .... I said to myself: Take a deeeeeep breath in, now breeeeathhhh out......repeat.....ok.....

Yeah, I know, another lesson learned. Just goes to prove, you cannot please everyone (particularly those that don't understand the importance of set-ups). Had I anticipated this, I would have NEVER sold that bass. I'm hoping, as I've discussed with him, he will give it more time to work out the "feel thing", otherwise, I will be working toward getting that bass back ASAP! :) Well, this is going off topic, but I can certainly feel you here. It falls under that "no good deed goes unpunished" category. Years ago, out of necessity I learned very well the painful process of properly setting up a tremolo strat. It's a MF cause everything you change changes everything else. But there is a systematic way to do it, it just takes time, and lots of it. So I get this neophyte fellow a great deal on a pawn shop strat, go to great pains to get genuine replacement hardware for a few things that were missing, bought some brand new strings and got the thing as near perfect as any set-up I've ever done. First time he changes the strings he changes the gauge to heavy because some idiot kid at GC tells him thus and so. :mad: And then he has to file the nut because the heavier gauge is sticking and he's wondering why his "action" is all high now, he can't get it in tune, and comes asking me what is wrong with this guitar I "sold" him;- "All I did was change the strings....", he says. !@#$$%!!!!!

Note, I never sold him anything. I helped him pick it out. And he blames me because I lined him up with it. OK, that's as much as I can bear to re-live. So I leave neophytes that don't take my advice alone now, and I never do anything to a guitar unless someone pays me. Otherwise they think you must be getting some advantage somewhere. They only respect your work if you charge them. So someone wants me to set up a tremolo strat- $100 minimum. The normal response is, "I can buy a guitar for that.." And I'm like "Fine, but can you play it that way..."

One of the things that impressed me the most about the KSB's that I have played was that the set-up was perfect everywhere. And the fret work is the best I've ever seen. There are many other things as well, but those stick out so far above the other makers that these are worth remark. Truly here in Atlanta, we have a treasure in the Atlanta Bass Gallery. But he never has enough fretless basses. I was in there a couple of days ago and he must have had 6 or 7 Smiths and not a single fret-less. I guess if he gets one, it goes pretty fast. But here, that place is great because you can really play and hear all the "best" makers' work. Of the top hand-made basses I think he sells more Smiths than anything else. I would say having Smith basses in these types of bass specialty shops is a great way to get the news across. There are some makers who you must deal with directly, and to me that is just too risky for an instrument that is truly an investment. Even if I were ordering an instrument custom to my specs, the fact that I have seen several in a store and been able to play them against other makers work is very important. Otherwise you don't have much to go on but looks and endorsements in magazines. With KSB, I think I would have no worries about a commissioned instrument;- but that is because of the long history of consistent quality. That reputation has been earned over many years.

[Ken Smith]

Magazines & Advertising??

Anyone? Thx guys..;)

[David Powell]

This is totally off topic, but related. The bass-o-lin is not really what I was hoping for. Clevinger is one of those companies that will only deal directly with customers and there are no dealers. That bothers me, but I would like to have a Clevinger type instrument. The other thing that bothers me about them is that they are totally unwilling to customize anything.

It just occurs to me that if Ken Smith made an instrument similar in design to the Clevinger, it would be beyond compare to anything like that currently available. I know it might be like invading new territory, but the bass-o-lin is too much bass guitar and not enough double bass. I guess I could talk to that fellow, but it seems like too much of a hybrid animal and what I'm hoping for is an improvement on the EUB, although I don't like that moniker, I think the concept is a good one;- to have an instrument that is feed back free, that has a rich arco tone when amplified and identical dimensions to a DB.

Of the EUBs currently available, Ken, have you tried any of them or have a favorite or just an impression of how you view those that you are willing to share?

[Dennis Michaels]

This is totally off topic, but related. The bass-o-lin is not really what I was hoping for. Clevinger is one of those companies that will only deal directly with customers and there are no dealers. That bothers me, but I would like to have a Clevinger type instrument. The other thing that bothers me about them is that they are totally unwilling to customize anything.

It just occurs to me that if Ken Smith made an instrument similar in design to the Clevinger, it would be beyond compare to anything like that currently available. I know it might be like invading new territory, but the bass-o-lin is too much bass guitar and not enough double bass. I guess I could talk to that fellow, but it seems like too much of a hybrid animal and what I'm hoping for is an improvement on the EUB, although I don't like that moniker, I think the concept is a good one;- to have an instrument that is feed back free, that has a rich arco tone when amplified and identical dimensions to a DB.

Of the EUBs currently available, Ken, have you tried any of them or have a favorite or just an impression of how you view those that you are willing to share?


I agree, I'd buy one. For now it is my Zeta "Crossover " 4 string (what a little neck) but it sounds pretty good at least.

[Ken Smith]

This is totally off topic, but related. The bass-o-lin is not really what I was hoping for. Clevinger is one of those companies that will only deal directly with customers and there are no dealers. That bothers me, but I would like to have a Clevinger type instrument. The other thing that bothers me about them is that they are totally unwilling to customize anything.

It just occurs to me that if Ken Smith made an instrument similar in design to the Clevinger, it would be beyond compare to anything like that currently available. I know it might be like invading new territory, but the bass-o-lin is too much bass guitar and not enough double bass. I guess I could talk to that fellow, but it seems like too much of a hybrid animal and what I'm hoping for is an improvement on the EUB, although I don't like that moniker, I think the concept is a good one;- to have an instrument that is feed back free, that has a rich arco tone when amplified and identical dimensions to a DB.

Of the EUBs currently available, Ken, have you tried any of them or have a favorite or just an impression of how you view those that you are willing to share?

I have played a few and even owned a BabyBass back in the late from '68-'72 or so. Been there, done that..

You should hear my 5er with the Shadow PU and the SWR.. Wow.. My Loveri smokes, the Martini rumbles, the Gilkes scares, the Bisiach puts you back in the 60s and the Batchelder makes you cry all with the shadow pickup. Even my Shens sound and play great with an Amp and I have sold several Basses including the Italian Solo Bass, The Dodd and the Prescott that turned heads plugged in or not..

Why on earth would I even have a bad dream about playing on a 2x4 with strings on it? I like it real, gut shaking Bass notes with some old wood scarring the neighbors.. lol

Hitchcock's new thriller "Mommy, Mommy, The Bass is Playing (http://www.ilovewavs.com/Holidays/Halloween/SoundEffects/Scream%20with%20Psycho.wav)"..:eek::eek:

A Bass is a Bass and a Guitar is a Guitar. Toys are for children!:D

[Dennis Michaels]

I have said before "wouldn't it be boring if everybody played the same gear?" If there was 1 perfect bass and amp for the world it would be less then eventful. I believe KSB are the best instrument built in any price range and I thank Ken for keeping them affordable in comparrison to some others. Tho not inexpensive by any means we are also not gouged either.

[David Powell]

I have played a few and even owned a BabyBass back in the late from '68-'72 or so. Been there, done that..

You should hear my 5er with the Shadow PU and the SWR.. Wow.. My Loveri smokes, the Martini rumbles, the Gilkes scares, the Bisiach puts you back in the 60s and the Batchelder makes you cry all with the shadow pickup. Even my Shens sound and play great with an Amp and I have sold several Basses including the Italian Solo Bass, The Dodd and the Prescott that turned heads plugged in or not..

Why on earth would I even have a bad dream about playing on a 2x4 with strings on it? I like it real, gut shaking Bass notes with some old wood scarring the neighbors.. lol

Hitchcock's new thriller "Mommy, Mommy, The Bass is Playing (http://www.ilovewavs.com/Holidays/Halloween/SoundEffects/Scream%20with%20Psycho.wav)"..:eek::eek:

A Bass is a Bass and a Guitar is a Guitar. Toys are for children!:DI can see your point all the way there, Ken, and for you, that approach probably does ruin what is the integral quality of a DB. But what happens when you want that big arco sound and have to travel by air and play some place with a mic'd up drummer? Do you bite the bullet and get a hard shell case and put it on a plane? I'm serious. The EUB is the last thing on my list, but it is on there because of gigs I played where the previous bassist with a pogo stick had a huge advantage over me because I could not control the feedback at the level needed to be heard. :mad: Is that when you just smile and break out a Black Tiger and go fusion??? :D I guess I could deal with that ....

[David Powell]

I have said before "wouldn't it be boring if everybody played the same gear?" If there was 1 perfect bass and amp for the world it would be less then eventful. I believe KSB are the best instrument built in any price range and I thank Ken for keeping them affordable in comparrison to some others. Tho not inexpensive by any means we are also not gouged either.I've got to add a +1 to that. The build quality is superior to many that are more expensive. And then there are those that have a maker's name on it who never even saw that piece of wood and they try to get almost the same as a Smith costs for that. I think Ken has hit it just right on the value for price. And you can't beat the consistency of Ken's basses either. Other custom builders, you really might be taking a chance. That's not everyone else, but Ken is nearly in a class by himself as far as consistent extremely high quality.

[Dennis Michaels]

I was actually posed a question a few days ago. "I was looking at magazine at all the "custom" builders so why didn't have a one of a kind disigned by you bass built"? I told him I did... my KSB. With KSB you get a one of a kind bult for you bass. I don't want somwthing in the shape of a machine/italy/fire plug... I want a classy instrument that I will NEVER play well enough to find a short coming if it even has one.
P.S. I read "Fly Fishing" mags.:)

[Bob Faulkner]

The KSB web site was my main source of info when I was looking to buy my bass. I found it because I had played and admired a used 5 string Smith at Guitar Center while placing an order for a custom Jackson bass. When Jackson royally screwed up my order I remembered that experience with the Smith and searched out the site. After a couple of days of research I was specing out my custom bass with Ken on the phone and never looked back..

[Charles Federle]

I think I might be one of the oldest fashion here in that I pretty much only use word of mouth to decide what I want to buy. Granted since I have a bass that I am very happy with it is almost only other stuff that I might be looking at now (strings and such). But, the only thing I use magazines and the internet for at least with music purchases is to find out about new things and then I would go track down someone that I know is knowledgeable about X product. The other major source of course for me is places like ISB, at the exhibition halls I was very happy to get to play on more bass and bows then I can count.

For electric stuff it has been the same way, granted my electric sits in the corner more then it is played I am afraid, it was through word of mouth that I went out and tried and bought this bass. Which is a Peavey Foundation, which is more then enough instrument then I need, granted one of my friends has a KSB and it is only after playing on his that I would consider owning one now myself.

[Dennis Michaels]

I found, played and fell in love with my '03 Tiger Maple 5 in INdy in April of '06. After buying that one, ordering a fretless was an easy decisin. Now I play fretless on all but 1 gig I do. To own it is to believe... next time I may opt for the switches tho'