American Standard setup?

[Dan Berkowitz]

I've had a '60s American Standard upright since the early '80s, but I've never been that happy with how it sounds. In particular, the E string sounds choked and lacks depth/punch. The whole bass is a bit midrangy.

My main use is for swing or acoustic blues, although I occasionally do some arco for classical stuff...but certainly not my main use.

Two different shops have looked at this bass. One shortened the soundpost until it would barely stay in, along the way finding it had been installed sideways before. The second shop added a shim onto the bottom of the soundpost to make it longer and moved the bridge up to shorten the scale to about 42" from its original 43+ inches.

With these moves, the bridge had been a bit too tall at one point, it was cut down and then sometime after needed to have the adjusters raised about 1/2". The string height is comfortable now and I'm using Permanents.

My question then: What should be expected from this bass, especially from the E string? I thought it was supposed to be a loud, big sounding bass.

And a related question: Is there something to look at that would eliminate the choked sound of the E string?

If it matters, the neck had been broken at the heel when I bought it and the repair job has held all these years. Recently, in cleaning and resealing the neck, I noticed that there is a fine crack running approximately parallel to the fingerboard for the first 8 or so inches. This may have been part of the original break, but I didn't see it until cleaning things up.

Also, it's virtually the only double bass I've played, other than in a shop.

Suggestions?

[Ken Smith]

I've had a '60s American Standard upright since the early '80s, but I've never been that happy with how it sounds. In particular, the E string sounds choked and lacks depth/punch. The whole bass is a bit midrangy.

My main use is for swing or acoustic blues, although I occasionally do some arco for classical stuff...but certainly not my main use.

Two different shops have looked at this bass. One shortened the soundpost until it would barely stay in, along the way finding it had been installed sideways before. The second shop added a shim onto the bottom of the soundpost to make it longer and moved the bridge up to shorten the scale to about 42" from its original 43+ inches.

With these moves, the bridge had been a bit too tall at one point, it was cut down and then sometime after needed to have the adjusters raised about 1/2". The string height is comfortable now and I'm using Permanents.

My question then: What should be expected from this bass, especially from the E string? I thought it was supposed to be a loud, big sounding bass.

And a related question: Is there something to look at that would eliminate the choked sound of the E string?

If it matters, the neck had been broken at the heel when I bought it and the repair job has held all these years. Recently, in cleaning and resealing the neck, I noticed that there is a fine crack running approximately parallel to the fingerboard for the first 8 or so inches. This may have been part of the original break, but I didn't see it until cleaning things up.

Also, it's virtually the only double bass I've played, other than in a shop.

Suggestions?

Pictures of all this would be better for discussion. I do have 2 questions for you.

1) What is the 'Neck Stand' of this Bass? (the distance between the Top and the bottom edge of the Fingerboard where the Neck meets the Top/body).

2) What is the height of your Bridge at the center from the Top to the top of the Bridge between the D and A strings in the middle of the Bridge with the String height off the Fingerboard about 5-6mm under the G and 8-10mm under the E at the end of the Fingerboard?

Before other problems can be addressed it is important to know how the Neck is set and the flexibility of the set-up heights of the Strings. Your Bass already has some severe damage that could cost more to fix traditionally than the Bass is worth. This is mentioned in a New Thread "What's in a Set-up?" (http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=301) Try reading that and see what might apply to your Bass. Again, pictures will make it easier to answer your questions. The 'E' string is most often weaker sounding than the 'A' on the bottom end. This is the nature or our Beast but taming it is often one for the Pros.

You may need to get your Bass to a better Shop more on the lines of Jeff, Arnold or Nick. I don't know who is closest to you that does their level of work but John of CSC/Shen knows a lot of shops in the country and might be able to suggest one.

[Ken Smith]

Ok, I looked at your profile and pulled up this pic on your 'My Space';

http://a826.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/14/l_9b0cb3cc6200ec95e7f6e19a699e7209.jpg

The Neck stand looks to be about 20mm or less give or take from this photo. 35mm - 38mm is more of what I see coming out of the better adjusted/made Basses today. This allows for more bridge height and with less pitch of the Neck which lessens the tension as well. This can help many Basses that sound choked from too much tension on the Top. Also, that Bridge looks on the low side (maybe 6" in the middle) and looks warped towards the Fingerboard.

I picked up an old Kay in trade recently and I am having the Neck moved out and then a New Bridge fitted with more height off the Top/body but lower to the Fingerboard than it was possible before. Many of these old American Ply's need the same for optimum set-up.

[Dan Berkowitz]

The Neck stand looks to be about 20mm or less give or take from this photo. 35mm - 38mm is more of what I see coming out of the better adjusted/made Basses today. This allows for more bridge height and with less pitch of the Neck which lessens the tension as well. This can help many Basses that sound choked from too much tension on the Top. Also, that Bridge looks on the low side (maybe 6" in the middle) and looks warped towards the Fingerboard.


Ken...thanks for making the extra effort to look up a pic of my bass. I just took the two measurements and you're real close...amazing!

The neck stand measures 25mm. The bridge center height is 6". String height is 9mm for the E and 5 mm for the G.

Perhaps it's time for a new bridge, given that it looks warped forward. The feet are seated nicely, so it's not just tilted. As you suggested, I'll see what shops I might check nearby. We're about 5 hours from Minneapolis, KC, Chicago and St. Louis.

[Eric Hochberg]

I've heard good things about Chris Threlkeld-Wiegand, formerly of Robertson & Sons Violin shop, www.heartlandsbs.com. Also Jim Reck builds basses and may be a good source. They are both in Iowa City.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

If you get that pickup out of the bridge wing you'll improve the tone. That gap was not meant to be bridged and is important for evenness. Also, your bridge appears to be tilting toward the fingerboard. How far is the soundpost from the f-hole? From the bridge?

[davidseidel]

I have some experience with these which may be relevant. They should certainly be punchy and with plenty of oomph on all strings IMO. They can easily sound midrangy though esp arco, but even so will have a pleasant low end punch which works well for acoustic jazz. I never tried one which didn't have a good E string sound. Also they originally had quite shallow neck angles and consequently shortish bridges at least on the ones I have seen. Maybe that was part of the puffy pleasant low end pizz sound?

The New Standards are similar but clearer sounding and more arco freindly and a bit less low end puffy sounding. Is this partly because of taller bridge and more neck angle?

Also my old AS had a soundpost which looked like an old broom handle and never sounded as good with a regular soundpost. I was told by someone that Traeger mentions something similar in his book - but i have not actually read it.....

[Dan Berkowitz]

Thanks for the further ideas...

Arnold, the outer edge of the post is 2" from the edge of the f-hole. It is about one finger width behind the foot of the bridge and the outer edge aligns with the middle of the curve of outer foot...does that sound about right. I'll give it a listen without the pickup and have the bridge checked out, too. Maybe it's about time for a new one.

Also, the scale length is now set up at about 42.25", which puts the bridge about 3/4" ahead of being centered at the notches. Would this make a meaningful difference in the sound compared to moving the bridge back to its nominal 43"?

David, I'm wondering if the older American Standards were different somehow. Mine is #3015, which places it from about 1963.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Thanks for the further ideas...

Arnold, the outer edge of the post is 2" from the edge of the f-hole. It is about one finger width behind the foot of the bridge and the outer edge aligns with the middle of the curve of outer foot...does that sound about right. I'll give it a listen without the pickup and have the bridge checked out, too. Maybe it's about time for a new one.

Also, the scale length is now set up at about 42.25", which puts the bridge about 3/4" ahead of being centered at the notches. Would this make a meaningful difference in the sound compared to moving the bridge back to its nominal 43"?

Is the post about the same distance in from the f-hole as the bass bar is on the other side? Moving the post a little farther out than the bass bar usually beefs up the bottom. Make sure the bass bar has not pulled loose at either end...

Your bass will probably have more oomph with the bridge closer to its original position. Consider installing a false nut of about 1/2" and moving the bridge about halfway back. That should give you around 42" of playing length. Also, what is the width of the bridge? AS's have a very inboard bass bar and work best with a narrow bridge (145-150mm).

[Dan Berkowitz]

The false nut certainly sounds like a better idea than the relocated bridge. I'll look inside at the bassbar, too, to make sure it's okay. These are the kinds of details I was hoping to learn about. Again, thanks!