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View Full Version : Issues Re: String Crossing


Johnny Layton
01-22-2007, 05:25 PM
Reading Patrick Neher's string choice for his bass (or at least one of them), I was struck by his idea of using Corelli Mediums for the lower strings and Pirastro Permanents for the higher strings as a happy medium for orchestra/solo work.

Have any of you tried this idea? What do you think of it?

Johnny Layton
01-23-2007, 10:15 AM
Hmm well alright then, everybody familiar with Corelli's 370 strings know they use a material that has more mass than your typical metal string a la Spiro or Flexocore.

I see the gut/metal string combo quite a bit, where the guts are on top and metal on bottom. That's a material issue too, where the string diameters can be made to match a little better...and Patrick Neher's idea seems to take that further.

O.K. then, for those of you who use a metal/gut combination, do you find string crossing (bowing or pizz they both eventually get done no matter the music style anyway) to be easier, more difficult, just different, the same?

Looking at strings for mass as a key indicator of performance intrigues me. I've never really looked at strings this way before. Choosing strings of different mass to control string size, making the high strings and low string sizes match, does it make a difference?

Johnny Layton
05-15-2007, 08:25 PM
O.K. well I tried out the bottom two Corelli 370M's in a chamber music setting, and I must say not only do they offer plenty of low end power but they also are very easy to stop.

It is definitely a relevation for me and I think it will also be relevatory to other thicker-tighter-string-with-more-boom-than-definition believers. The top strings, though...they didn't have near as much power and I used the Neher Permanent option to cover that end. The Permanents worked great, but most other heavier strings like Flexocore would have worked fine also I think.

Anyway, if (o.k., when LOL) I go back to the 4ths tuning setup I will go with the 370M's on the bottom no questions asked. If only Corelli made a low C string that sounded anywhere near as good...sorry, the low C Corelli string is overpriced and a big let down compared to, say, spiro or helicore...but the 360 F# tuned to G is a great hybrid string IMO!

Ken Smith
05-15-2007, 09:23 PM
Have you measured the diameter of all these various Strings? To me, the difference is much smaller than the Bow movement and the arch of the Bridge is the most important for me with this issue. I have used over a dozen combinations and brands and see no difference in crossing as long as the string bows well.

What kind of Bass and Bow grade wise are you using and what is your Bow/Classical training background or level of playing with the Bow? Trying to fix something with a String is not the way to go when it's a technique. What one pro likes another may hate. I have seen some great players cross strings with ease in fast passages with nothing special altered in the string department.

Wanna talk about Gut type/Gut core strings? Ok, but have someone tune the Bass as you are playing because they don't stay in tune for long. This is why Gut is OUT and Steel/Metal is IN! A few 'die-hards' out there still mess with this but it's a minority, trust me.

For instance, the written Cadenza in the Dragonetti Concerto. It crosses 3 strings fast as lightening playing various triplet lines. The 2nd and 4th movement of Beethoven's 9th, moves like a shooting star with crossing strings. What do I play it with string wise? Who cares, whatever string I like that day on that Bass. It has zip to do with the strings as long as the Bass has fairly even tensioned Strings, proper shaped Fingerboard/Bridge match, you have a decent Bass that responds well, a good Bow and the technique to pull off the Job both right and left hands. There is no quick fix here as far as a String goes that will short cut years of practice and training with an Orchestral professional.

Johnny Layton
05-15-2007, 11:42 PM
Hello Mr. Smith,

Have you measured the diameter of all these various Strings? To me, the difference is much smaller than the Bow movement and the arch of the Bridge is the most important for me with this issue. I have used over a dozen combinations and brands and see no difference in crossing as long as the string bows well.
Measured them? Nah. But the Corelli 370Ms are smaller in diameter than gut and most other metal strings as I can see. I don't know why I find it interesting...maybe because it's something for me to notice.

What kind of Bass and Bow grade wise are you using and what is your Bow/Classical training background or level of playing with the Bow?
I'm playing a notably low-cost Romanian bass I bought from Mark Rubin's shop. My bow is a German bow it's a wood one...the best I can afford. I like it a whole lot. Oh yeah, and I've had some lessons from professional bassists and I've been learning to play for about 5 years now. It's been a blast!

Trying to fix something with a String is not the way to go when it's a technique. What one pro likes another may hate. I have seen some great players cross strings with ease in fast passages with nothing special altered in the string department.
That's good advice thanks! Yeah, my technique is definitely not the best in show and I don't recommend anybody think of me as a guru or hero unless they want to drop the bar a couple of notches (give or take a couple of notches...in the dropping direction). I still practice as much as I can and I still have to work on intonation real hard...among shifts, positions, bowings, etc. I'm nowhere near where I can take anything, technically, for granted. It's likely I'll never be able to take those things for granted *sigh*

Wanna talk about Gut type/Gut core strings? Ok, but have someone tune the Bass as you are playing because they don't stay in tune for long. This is why Gut is OUT and Steel/Metal is IN! A few 'die-hards' out there still mess with this but it's a minority, trust me.
Nah gut's too expensive and too temperamental for my tastes. I agree with you. However, I did see a chamber group playing at St. Martin in the Fields last year, all gut, all period...they sounded great with great intonation etc...but it's definitely not for me at my stage in the bass game. I just brought up gut because, well, gut's fat and Corellis are, well, skinny.

For instance, the written Cadenza in the Dragonetti Concerto. It crosses 3 strings fast as lightening playing various triplet lines. The 2nd and 4th movement of Beethoven's 9th, moves like a shooting star with crossing strings. What do I play it with string wise? Who cares, whatever string I like that day on that Bass. It has zip to do with the strings as long as the Bass has fairly even tensioned Strings, proper shaped Fingerboard/Bridge match, you have a decent Bass that responds well, a good Bow and the technique to pull off the Job both right and left hands. There is no quick fix here as far as a String goes that will short cut years of practice and training with an Orchestral professional.
No doubts here I promise you, Mr. Smith. Those string crossings sound so cool, especially when the bow jumps and it's all staccato-ey and such...a really exciting sound!

Just wanted to talk about strings is all...in the string forum section...Thanks! :D

Ken Smith
05-16-2007, 05:01 AM
Johnny, thanks for filling in this blanks for me. Some of it I could have gotten from your 'Profile' but you haven't filled it in. No insults intended here off the bat but did want to point out a few things here in a constructive manner.

Looking now in a better light, I don't know many or actually any Pros that use Corelli's. The main Strings I see used are Flexocor, Original Flexocor and the new Belcanto's from Thomastic which have a slightly larger diameter and lower tension. Many players replace the E or E/C Ext string with a Helicore or Permanant. I prefer the Flexocor Stark for a beefier E or E/C but they stopped making them. A good alternative might be the Original Flat Chrome for the E or E/C. I had a set of them once and liked all but the G. The G will tame down in time but at first it was a bit edgy.

As you mention Permanents, they are not at all well liked on the G and D being too bright but some use the E or A and E combo with maybe Flexocor G and D. I found this combo accidentally once but some Basses just don't like the Perms at all.

The main thing here is Bow sound. If the String doesn't grab well for that player on his Bass, crossing strings is not even an issue. If the String works Bow-wise as well as Tone, feel and maybe even volume, then all types of playing will work.

A lot of newer Basses are tight to play as well as less responsive than older seasoned Basses. Some are just not quality sounding tone machines at all no matter how old they get. Some better smoother sounding Basses can handle strings with the Bow that many other Basses may find unusable.

For Gut-like sound and feel I have these new Eurosonics on one of my Basses now. I consulted with them on the design and now the regular gauge is in final design or finished if the company doesn't agree with me on the E string. They Bow in maybe 3rd place to Flexocor and Belcanto but first or second place for feel and First place for a metal string with both a fatter gut feel and olde gut style sound.

I have my Bass with these over at Jeff Bollbach's now getting a C-Ext put on and will have to change the E as the company has not yet made the Extension E/C string. Belcanto has this same problem and players must find a different string to match up as best as possible. Another Gut-like string sound wise are the Jaegars. I have recently used the Forte/red silked at the tail and love the G and D sound and feel and the lowers as well but they are thicker on the bottom and require more Bow pressure. They feel softer or quieter but I am sure they project. They also feel silky smooth under the fingers but the Eurosonics have the best feel under my finger tips especially the G and D which to me, are very Oliv-like in feel.

Strings are not cheap these days and at over $100./set on average and some $200-$300, experimenting is not affordable to most. Sometimes but not always, a teacher or professional Bassist you meet can give suggestions what might work best for your Bass if they have played it or at least make suggestions and narrow down the choices.

On the String Crossings I look at the technique mainly and your Bow. First off, which Bow French or German is actually better for your hand/Wrist angle as you are naturally built. To find this out, there is a simple test I once heard about and makes perfect sense to me. Standing straight with your hands at your sides, look down and see if palms are facing your leg/thigh or facing at some angle towards the back of your body away from flat against your leg. If they are at your side then the German Bow would be your natural pull direction and if angled away from your leg, French Bow is your grip and style. Make sure your arms and shoulders are totally relaxed when you try this test so they hang down relaxed and natural.

Here's a problem I see with beginners. The French Bow that most would start with are often 'junk'! You need to use all this wrist pressure to get a sound from the Bass. This is not the persons fault. It is the Bow which is of poor quality. German Bow technique allows for natural wrist pressure and makes a beginner feel like he sounds better with it. Well if you take the crap French Bow that doesn't work well and use an under handed grip, it will pull more sound as well. The problem here is knowledge and economics. Good French Bows on the vintage market can cost 2-4x the amount of a similar grade German Bow. The German Bow technique alone allows for lighter tipped Bow where a French Bow like that of a Violin or Cello, needs it's own power to pull the string without added wrist pressure. This is one of the reasons why I had my own line of affordable Bows made. To give the player a more workable Bow under $600 mainly in the French grip but we added German Bows as well.

The best older French Bows of course were made in France with a few exceptions. I have seen some great Bows with the French grip from England and Italy as well. Very few though from Germany. Germany makes most of the German Bows with France hardly making any at all. Today, there are several great makers right here in USA and Canada with the pack (in my opinion) being led by Sue Lipkins. Her Bows either French or German are about the highest priced you will find with a waiting list now of at least 3-5 years. The 3 is only if the Bow doesn't fit the customer and get get a call from her with an offer to try a Bow made for someone else which would still be a trial for you. Many of todays top Pros know exactly what they want so finding a home for a specific Bow that is different than what one wanted may take a few tries. For me, I have bought 3 of her Bows and loved every one of them. None of them were made at all for me. Two were used and one was made for a competition. Today, 80% of the worlds bows regardless of the name on it are made in China. China produces Bows in various grades and qualities.

Yesterday I laid out 5 Bows to test. One was taken out quickly and then a second. After a long trial with various techniques and passages a 3rd was omitted. These are all Bows of mine by the way that I was choosing for a particular Bass I will use this week (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Pollmann/Pollmann.htm). I want the Bow that works best technique wise and has the most power as well on the Bass I am taking out to play. I was stuck between two Bows for a long time at this point. One was the latest Lipkins she made of the 3 that I had bought (2 have now been sold as players just had to have them) that was her latest Competition Bow. The other a Bow I tried 3 years ago and just recently bought which has a beautiful smooth sound made by Geza Balint, a maker that worked in Cleveland in the 1970s-1980s. The Lipkins is the best balanced Bow and easiest for some styles whilst the Balint has more power, darker smoother sound and is slightly louder. The Lipkins (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Bows/Lipkins/Lipkins2.htm) with a rubber grip now added is 142 grams. The Balint (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Bows/Balint/Balint.htm) without a Rubber grip (just silver/leather like the Lipkins) is at 146 grams. The Balance point on the Balint is 1/2" or so closer to the Tip. A Rubber Grip like on the Lipkins Bow would add about 4 grams bringing it to 150 grams. Just a note here along the way. German Bow players because or the natural technique/pull of that style Bow does not have to go thru these things that French players do. These French Bows are so finicky! The 3rd Bow I had in the mix before eliminating it was 152 grams and perfectly balanced (my Eibert Pecatte (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Bows/Eibert/EibertPeccatte.htm) model with a long Rubber grip, 6 grams but not shown). It felt as light at the Lipkins and had even more bite. The Lipkins though had a fuller sweeter tone. That Eibert also felt longer but all 3 Bows tested had the exact same Playing Hair length (21"). The Balint felt or rather played the shortest and felt the heaviest as well which it was not.

Anyway, both the Eibert and Balint need re-hairing which will make a slight difference but I have in my hands today what I have so judgment must be made on what it is now.

All this String testing and Bow choosing can eat up a lot of ones time that otherwise could be used for practicing or playing the Bass. Even reading this long post can cut into ones routine..lol

So, enjoy your Bass and try working on your technique. If your Bass or Bow doesn't perform the way you need, be careful what decisions you make in regards to purchases to compensate. Sometimes, a better Bow and/or Bass is like 1000 hours or learned practice. The Bultitude Bow I just sold and the one before it just danced on the strings like magic. This was agreed by everyone that tried it. The great Basses I own and play on (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/double_basses.htm) didn't hurt much either, lol. The Bultitude made me a better player as I could do things I could not do with my other Bows. At least now, I know what to look for in a Bow.. Magic! ;)

Johnny Layton
05-16-2007, 11:26 AM
Johnny, thanks for filling in this blanks for me. Some of it I could have gotten from your 'Profile' but you haven't filled it in.
Oops sorry I filled some stuff in.

I don't know many or actually any Pros that use Corelli's. The main Strings I see used are Flexocor, Original Flexocor and the new Belcanto's from Thomastic which have a slightly larger diameter and lower tension. Many players replace the E or E/C Ext string with a Helicore or Permanant. I prefer the Flexocor Stark for a beefier E or E/C but they stopped making them. A good alternative might be the Original Flat Chrome for the E or E/C. I had a set of them once and liked all but the G. The G will tame down in time but at first it was a bit edgy.
Other than Paul Ellison, David Neubert, and Francois Rabbath, I haven't seen any pros use them either. Of course, these guys were using them in solo settings and not orchestra settings...so Patrick Neher's suggestion to use the bottom two for orchestra work intrigued me.

I don't play in an orchestra, but I played in a chamber group recently while experimenting with Patrick Neher's idea and I thought they worked out surprisingly well. To my mind, it definitely challenges the idea that strong, beefy low strings are needed to give the low end its due.

As you mention Permanents, they are not at all well liked on the G and D being too bright but some use the E or A and E combo with maybe Flexocor G and D. I found this combo accidentally once but some Basses just don't like the Perms at all.
I like Flexocores too...a lot! I didn't mind the permanents at the top, though.

For Gut-like sound and feel I have these new Eurosonics on one of my Basses now. I consulted with them on the design and now the regular gauge is in final design or finished if the company doesn't agree with me on the E string. They Bow in maybe 3rd place to Flexocor and Belcanto but first or second place for feel and First place for a metal string with both a fatter gut feel and olde gut style sound.
Yeah the belcantos are nice I agree, but I too prefer the flexocores. The belcantos are awesome for spiccato (or at least my version of the stroke)...super smooth.

All this String testing and Bow choosing can eat up a lot of ones time that otherwise could be used for practicing or playing the Bass. Even reading this long post can cut into ones routine..lol
Yeah I know what you mean lol
But what the hell