Show your Extensions!

[Ken Smith]

I had two extensions back in my early days in the early 70s and recently started putting one on every suitable Orchestra Bass that goes through my hands. If you have an Extension on your Bass, come and share it with the rest of us. To get the ball rolling, I will show the few that Arnold made for me and the most recent and first Chromatic Bollbach Extension as well. I will list them in the order that they were made (Morelli, Martini, Prescott, Gilkes and Bisiach.)

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/MorelliBass/images/683.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/MartiniBass/ScrollFront.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Prescott/images/pres_scranglel.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/GilkesBass/images/scrollFR.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Bisiach/images/bis5.jpg

[Flint Buchanan]

http://www.smithbassforums.com/www.flintbuchanan.com/images/bass/scroll2.jpgMine's not as fancy as yours, but it does stay in tune well. Using an original Flexocore right now.


http://www.flintbuchanan.com/images/bass/scroll2.jpg
http://www.flintbuchanan.com/images/scroll_2.jpg
http://www.flintbuchanan.com/images/bass/Georgiev_scroll2.jpg

[Matthew Tucker]

Apart from yours and Ken's Morelli extension, I must say that its a pity the others turn a beautiful graceful scroll into a telegraph pole. I'm sure they work really well, but Ken please don't do that to the Storioni, even though it's already been cut!

[Ken Smith]

Apart from yours and Ken's Morelli extension, I must say that its a pity the others turn a beautiful graceful scroll into a telegraph pole. I'm sure they work really well, but Ken please don't do that to the Storioni, even though it's already been cut!

NONE of my Scrolls were Cut for the C-Extension. The Ebony is Cut to fit around the Scroll.

The Storioni, IF I still have the Bass when the Hart is done, WILL get the same Chromatic Ext. from Arnold AFTER he restores the Scroll back to as original as possible. If it gets sold before then, the new owner will do as HE please I'm sure..

[Matthew Tucker]

NONE of my Scrolls were Cut for the C-Extension. The Ebony is Cut to fit around the Scroll

I know you wouldn't cut a scroll Ken, I didn't say that. And I'm not rubbishing anyone's craftmanship, least of all Arnold's and Jeff's.

But you have started a thread "Show your Extensions" and I've presumed that is so that feedback is received?

So to MY taste, those chromatic extensions DO turn an elegant scroll into a telegraph pole, so from ME at least, the feedback isn't gushing :eek:

[Ken Smith]

I know you wouldn't cut a scroll Ken, I didn't say that. And I'm not rubbishing anyone's craftmanship, least of all Arnold's and Jeff's.

But you have started a thread "Show your Extensions" and I've presumed that is so that feedback is received?

So to MY taste, those chromatic extensions DO turn an elegant scroll into a telegraph pole, so from ME at least, the feedback isn't gushing :eek:

Ok, I get it now. I thought you were assuming that the Scrolls were cut for my Chromatic Extensions as well.

I don't know what your Bass playing experience but let me try and explain in short when I use the Chromatic style. When playing in an Orchestra and a single note or two comes up below E, it is much easier to pre-set the the Stop to the lowest note needed and finger anything in between.

In the Philly Orchestra most all the players have the Chromatic while some of the older Extensions on the Basses are Mechanical/Chromatic. Only one Bass that I have seen has only the E-Latch and that is the Asst. Princ (3rd Chair). The Princ. has a Chromatic and the Assoc Princ. a Mechanical. All of the new Extensions the guys get there are the Chromatic.

I have used all 3 types and the Chromatic is the best of the 3 I feel. Only on fast passages would the keys/mech. be slightly better but equally noisier. The first time I saw the Philly Orch was a christmas Show with my family. There were only 4 Basses that night all with mechanical Exts. and almost every time they used, set or locked the keys, I could hear it from almost 100 feet away if not more.

The best way to play the low notes fast is with a 5-string Bass. The Chromatic can still be fingered just as easy as the E-latch fingered Ext.

So, no matter how it may look, it IS the most popular Ext. that I have seen and my personal favorite. Imagine octave jumps like in the Brandenburg or the Trout and you can quickly set your lowest string to E, Eb, D, Db or C to play any quick octave jump or run you need. Kinda cool I think! Next best thing to having a 5-string and one less string to jump across from not having the 5th B-string as well.

[Bob Branstetter]

NONE of my Scrolls were Cut for the C-Extension. The Ebony is Cut to fit around the Scroll.

The Storioni, IF I still have the Bass when the Hart is done, WILL get the same Chromatic Ext. from Arnold AFTER he restores the Scroll back to as original as possible. If it gets sold before then, the nee\w owner will do as HE please I'm sure..Many years ago (long before I started making extensions in my own shop), I took my personal bass to a well known bass shop 700 miles from my home so that I could have one fitted by what was reputed to be one of the best bass shops in the country. I nearly cried when I was handed the part of the scroll that was cut away to install the extension. Because of the shop's reputation, I didn't even think to ask if they were going to cut the scroll. Thank God, that barbaric practice is no longer done by most reputable shops today.

[JoeyNaeger]

I just got my bass back from Robertsons last night. They put on a beautiful extension with snakewood capos. Unfortunately, I haven't gotten a chance to play the bass much yet, but I'm very excited about it.
Here's a picture
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c104/JoeyNaeger/Homecoming-bass001.jpg

[Arnold Schnitzer]

I think the Robertson extensions are elegant and beautiful. But I have two questions: 1)Why do they screw the extension on (in two places)? This makes it difficult to change strings and near-impossible to dress the fingerboard. 2)Why do they cut fancy filigree into the back of the extension? Sometimes a player needs to quickly get his thumb behind the extension to hold a long note manually, and the dips and points back there make it dangerous.

[Ken Smith]

I think the Robertson extensions are elegant and beautiful. But I have two questions: 1)Why do they screw the extension on (in two places)? This makes it difficult to change strings and near-impossible to dress the fingerboard. 2)Why do they cut fancy filigree into the back of the extension? Sometimes a player needs to quickly get his thumb behind the extension to hold a long note manually, and the dips and points back there make it dangerous.

Arnold, I have almost hurt myself on the Lott I have here with the Robertson's Ext. when fingering fast notes in the Beethoven. Also, I know that E-latch will hit my Eye one of these Days as I play the Bass kind of Low. Why or how they screw it in place beats me because I don't see any visible screws on the one I have here. If I end up getting the Lott, I will have to have at least have the E-latch re-cut for eye safety and then the tension loosened on each latch so I can knock them all open in a hurry with my left hand forefinger/thumb joint when needed. When I try that now, it's like jamming my hand into a piece of Ebony as the first Latch stops and jams my knuckle.

Your Ext's work so easily as does Jeff's first chromatic he made which is on the Bisiach labeled Bass. I think re-cutting the back is not a bad idea either. It looks pretty but it's almost like having sharp ridges in the Neck between positions. I might need to carry some First-aid stuff to play with it as it is now.:(

I think the Robertson's is a good Extension overall but for me, I need it modified to what I have become used to and that's smoothness, ease of use and very comfortable all around.

[Ken Smith]

Arnold, of the three Chromatics you made for me so far, I think the Martini looks the best 'finger' wise. They all work just as well but this first one you did for me, the Fingers almost look real! Jeff's on the other hand gets the Petite award..

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/MartiniBass/ScrollFront.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Bisiach/images/bis7.jpg

[Charles Federle]

I actually do like the latch on the E-stop. Though I have bumped my head against it more then once, but for me I think it just stopped me from hitting my head against the scroll :) As for all the added decorations on the Robertson's extension they do have a purpose, and that is when you are fingering a note you have a physical reference, something I wish mine had. I do wish they moved easier as well. On mine I am so used to just being able to run my hand down the string and open up a gate that I have hurt myself on a few extensions trying the same thing. The one on my bass is David Graham's first extension.

[Bob Branstetter]

I actually do like the latch on the E-stop. I also like the E latch type that can be opened with the thumb without taking the left hand away from the neck. I've been using one of this type that was installed on my personal bass about about 30 years ago. Recently, I decided to upgrade this old single latch extension to full chromatic by installing three of Rob Anzellotti's brass "capos". While they may not look as elegant as the carved ebony or exotic hardwood latches, they are relatively low cost, light weight, easy to adjust and (from my experience) function perfectly. IMO, anyone who has an extension with just the E closer and who would like to convert it to a full chromatic should take a good look the "capos" made and sold by Rob Anzellotti. Many luthiers are now installing the Anzellotti's "capos" as part of their new hand made extensions.

[JoeyNaeger]

I think the Robertson extensions are elegant and beautiful. But I have two questions: 1)Why do they screw the extension on (in two places)? This makes it difficult to change strings and near-impossible to dress the fingerboard. 2)Why do they cut fancy filigree into the back of the extension? Sometimes a player needs to quickly get his thumb behind the extension to hold a long note manually, and the dips and points back there make it dangerous.

You'd be better off asking robertsons those questions. I will say that the small hump they put in the back is nice. There are no sharp edges and it really makes it easier to know where you are. Different people, different strokes I guess.

[Ken Smith]

You'd be better off asking robertsons those questions. I will say that the small hump they put in the back is nice. There are no sharp edges and it really makes it easier to know where you are. Different people, different strokes I guess.

Playing any of the fast moving low parts of Beethoven's 3,5, 6, or 9 etc, there is no time to hold anything. A sharp point like that in the back can easily get in the way or do nothing at all. All keys are usually open when you play those parts with the exception of one part in the 9th where you set the 'D' key for the octave. Using single latches as time allows or fingering a single slow note or two is a different story. My point is that for universal use, the less things sticking out the better. I even sanded the edges of my gears on the G and D strings so I don't cut my self jumping back and forth quickly. Sitting on a stool with the Bass slanted helps and brings the notes/ext closer. Still, if you have the Keys there, why would you need something in the back to tell you where to finger?

[Charles Federle]

I have to admit that I really cannot play on the extension past Eb unless I am seated.

As for the humps on the backs they are nice because sometimes you do need to play something like a low D that is followed by C# or something to that affect. Something like the opening in the 4th movement of Beethoven 5 or letter N in Beethoven 7 1st movement (I have been told to play the cello line sometimes). Sometimes you could a bit of fancy latch work, but sometimes I find it easier and safer to just use a finger.

As far as fast passages I know exactly what you mean by sharp edges being dangerous. Though for me it is only those on the tuners that I worry about as I play most fast extension work without putting my thumb behind, kind of like a really low and reversed thumb position hand.

What is most important I think though it get what works for you, and is comfortable (or safe perhaps :) ).

[JoeyNaeger]

Perhaps mine is different, but I haven't encountered any sharp edges along the back of the extension.

[Ken Smith]

Here's the Hart (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/hart/index.html) with a new design by Arnold using Jeff's hardware..
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/hart/hart-restore-images/hart9.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/hart/hart-restore-images/hart11.jpg

This is a slightly shorter 3-string Scroll/Pegbox c.1830, original to the Bass. This was possibly passed off as a Maggini as I have heard of another similar Bass that was used in London for 30 years which was thought to be a Maggini until they learned it was English. Later it was attributed to William Vallentine who was actually employed by Hart to make Basses later on. They did not see the Hart stamps I assume so the attribution was very close. Another London dealer thinks this is the work of John Devereux who worked for Fendt before moving to Australia in 1854.

Either way, it's a beautiful Scroll and another custom Extension by Arnold with some supplied parts by Jeff, similar to the ones used on the Bisiach. Arnold made his own Ebony fingers though.

[William Stephens]

I've always liked the look of hat peg tuners....that is until I had an extension installed on my current bass!

The G tuner is positioned perfectly to stop my hand in it's tracks when reaching back for the D and Db on the extension!

I wonder what others have done in this situation? at first I thought I'd just learn to cope with it, but I can easily see myself making some sort of "modification":eek: in a brief moment of frustration:D


I wonder about the history of fingered extensions....
As far as I understand it the early ones were exclusively mechanical, staring in germany around 1880 or 1890 and then sold commercially by Max Poike.

I had my extension made by Mike Hart in Suffolk, UK who has probably made more fingered extensions than anyone else over here.

He told me he made his first in 1971 after a player returned from the states where he had seen Ron Carter play. I think in those days the norm over here was the Fawcett-type mechanical, although these days they are rarely seen in the UK (with the exception of London), Fingereds being the general rule now.

Did the fingered type start as a result of removing the mechanism?

how common were fingered extensions in the US in the 60's and 70's?

Just wondering.....

[Ken Smith]

Ok, in 1972 or so I was in a car accident and my Mechanical Ext. was broken along with the Neck. The Bass was restored by Peter Eibert in NY. When I went to pick it up it had a fingered Ext. with just the E-latch. Peter opted for that rather than to try and fix my Mechanical one. The Bass was way way lighter and quieter as well.

Now, on your latches which I have played on other Basses you cannot quick-flip easily with the edge of your fore-finger/palm-strike like I can with my ebony-fingers. Also, the tension cannot be adjusted as minutely either.

I see others using 2 or 3 fingers to 'lift' the closed latches to open the Ext. partly or all the way. I can run my hand back up there sideways and knock them open in a flash and then set them easily with one finger.

Speed of usage is a major factor when you have little or no time to open a gate or close one. The Robo's are a nice idea but work too slow for my taste and hurt my fingers/hand when trying to open them in a flash like I can my Ebony's.

I don't know the exact history of the fingered extension but if you ask around in the UK shops you might hear a few stories. I have the 3-set Elgar books and in either 1 or 2 he talks about extension ideas. This was written in the 60's so it was in use easily by then. Being 'in use' and being commercially available are two different things.

[Ken Smith]

Ok, separate subject here. Your Bass looks to have the German type hatpegs. Two of the Bassists in the Philly Orchestra (Robinson and Rosengard) have hatpegs on their Italian Basses with Chromatic Extensions by I think Robertson's which are very similar to the ones I have by Arnold. BUT, their Basses have the Italian style Hatpegs which do not stick out as much as the German ones. I have the Italian ones on one of my Italian Basses now in restoration. Look at the pics below to compare.

http://www.smithbassforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=612&d=1219318612 http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Neapolitan/images/neapolitan1.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Neapolitan/images/neapolitan10.jpg

I have seen many German hatpeg 'be-headed' to size down to the Italian style ones. You can cut the 'hat' portion off at about 1/4" after the metal housing and slightly round the edges and then paint it black with a marker. No one will call you the executioner..:eek:

[Abe Gumroyan]

What are your guys' opinion on chromatic "b" extension ? Likes or Dis-likes ?

[Ken Smith]

What are your guys' opinion on chromatic "b" extension ? Likes or Dis-likes ?

Why would you bother with a B-extension? If one time every few years you might need it you can just tune down from the C. If not, expect to hit some doorways from time to time and carry the extra weight around 99.99% of the time when it's not needed.

Many 5-string players actually tune the low string to a C instead of B as well. This keeps you from having to shift during fast runs on the low string. When playing octaves like in a Brandenburg the perfect Octaves and fifths tuning for the B come in handy.

I personally see no need for a B-extension at all.

[Abe Gumroyan]

My sentiments exactly. A colleague of mine installed a B extension from a shop that shall remain nameless on his Roth double bass ad had to cut off the B portion because when he stopped his C capo is would rattle horribly. When he took it to his repair person a year after he installed it to solve the issue, the problem was the fingerboard was arching under the pressure and the "hump" happened to be at his C capo. So now he has a C extension. I told him if and when you play Pines of Rome just tune it down a half step lol. I think the problem arose from the flimsy fingerboard because of the ornate carving under the board. It left no mass for support. Ken what do you think ?

[Ken Smith]

My sentiments exactly. A colleague of mine installed a B extension from a shop that shall remain nameless on his Roth double bass ad had to cut off the B portion because when he stopped his C capo is would rattle horribly. When he took it to his repair person a year after he installed it to solve the issue, the problem was the fingerboard was arching under the pressure and the "hump" happened to be at his C capo. So now he has a C extension. I told him if and when you play Pines of Rome just tune it down a half step lol. I think the problem arose from the flimsy fingerboard because of the ornate carving under the board. It left no mass for support. Ken what do you think ?

What do I think? I thought I said it all above in my last post. If you are referring to the construction issue or the Pines' I will say this. I have played the Pines. It has a split Bass part for those of you that have not played it in an Orchestra. The Top parts quarter note Pizz B,B,B,B.. like forever.. a page or more from what I recall some 5
years ago. The bottom part is half notes bowed B-,F-..etc. with/under the Low Bs... I played this on my lowest B of a 4-string playing the low B on the A-string. I was using my 7/8 Shen then and that Bass had some punchy bottom. I think the B an octave lower would get lost in space. It was however written for a 5-string Bass like is usually played in Europe. The B-F- bowed part would then be up and octave on the B and a flatted 5th up on the Low F. Maybe Respighi was going for 'Mud' as the color of the sound..:eek:

On the Extension construction I think I heard Arnold comment about this same problem. The Extension itself bending/bowing forward from tension and becoming a problem. Necks themselves with Ebony fingerboards Bend under tension and have problems. Why wouldn't an Extension made the fraction of the strength bend as well under a single longer string? It will and it does. make it a B which is quite a bit longer than a C and it will bend much easier. make it with maple and a thin Ebony veneer-like fingerboard and you are asking for trouble even with a C-extension.

To be practical and reasonable the best Extension is made from Solid Ebony and goes down to a C note. That will be all anyone needs ever including that once or twice in a lifetime an orchestra bassist might get to play the Pines. Imagine having this B extension and you are the one playing the Bowed part.. lol.. What a waste, huh? Scream, yell, kick, cry.. hey, you are playing on the right, that's your seat.. Play the bottom B/F bowed part..:(

So, my choice are the Extensions like what I have on all my Basses. My favorite is the first chromatic one Arnold made for me and my Martini (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/MartiniBass/martini_bass_2.htm) which is also pictured on Arnold's website (http://www.aesbass.com/extensions.htm) as well. I guess he was proud of his work on that Bass as well.

[Ken McKay]

This is a B extension that I fabricated on a Christopher bass. The player was most insistent on the B, and I went against the advice of some esteemed luthiers to make it.

I know the arguments against the B, but according to this player, who is a university student, he won't even be allowed to audition for some orchestras without a B extension. I could not turn him down :confused: .

As it turned out, the functionality of this extension is very easy and the Bass Capos from Rob Anzellotti are very well made.

Thinking back I was wondering how many tools I used to fabricate this extension which is solid ebony. I came up with between 60 and 70! This includes files, planes, knives, computer for calculations, drills, drill press, measuring tools, etc...

The design is deliberately austere, without fuss, with a tip of the hat to Arnold and Jeff B.

[Calvin Marks]

I'd like to know what U.S orchestras specify for a "B" extension, if any.

Also, what orchestra is this character going to be auditioning for with a Christopher bass?? Seems more like a youth orchestra...and most of those are very informal about your instrument set-up...

[Ken McKay]

I'd like to know what U.S orchestras specify for a "B" extension, if any.
Also, what orchestra is this character going to be auditioning for with a Christopher bass?? Seems more like a youth orchestra...and most of those are very informal about your instrument set-up...

I don't know Calvin Maybe you could ask your question if you are curious.
For now how about we just wish him (this character) luck.

He has quite a while to go and is a pretty good young player, he has established himself with a luthier who will get him through the lean times (me) and is following the advice of his teachers. Just to be clear, his goal is to audition and play in a professional orchestra.

As far as auditioning with a Christopher bass I agree. But he will have prepared himself as his teachers have advised him. :)

[Matthew Tucker]

Well done Ken, that looks simple and neatly executed.

I'd hate to lug that bass around though ... he almost needs a bull-bar to protect the top!

[Ken McKay]

Thanks Matthew.

We put the bass in the bag and it did not fit. I advised him to cut a slot in the top and put a sock or something over it.

[Matthew Tucker]

i advised him to cut a slot in the top and put a sock or something over it.

:D

matthew

[Calvin Marks]

One critique Ken (McKay). Since the E-side of the Fingerboard is beveled, it would have been nice to see the extension flush with that bevel and not have a little height difference in between. When fingering between E and E-flat in a rapid passage, you can easily cut your hand.

Overall, nice work.

[Ken McKay]

Thanks Calvin, that is good advice.

The extension is beveled, just not quite as much as the Rhomberg. I did not notice any sharp edges but you point is well taken.

[Calvin Marks]

I only know of a few pieces that require the Contra B.

Respighi's Pines (most bassists just tune their low string down a semi-tone for that work).
Berg's Wozzeck has a very exposed passage for solo double bass that contains a tone of Low B's, but this was written for a fiver.
Brahms 2 has a tone of low B's if you check out the original two player piano version, today a lot of conductors will ask for the low b in that work.

other than that....nada. Stick with the C...it also resonates with the open G string and you don't need to worry about banging your bass against the ceiling or door!

[Arnold Schnitzer]

On the Extension construction I think I heard Arnold comment about this same problem. The Extension itself bending/bowing forward from tension and becoming a problem. Ken, you've hit the nail with your head! This is exactly the problem. I have seen several B extensions, and every one of them was warping down at the end, causing a hump in the middle. The player asks, "Can you make the extension buzz go away?". And my answer is, "No, if I take away wood in the center to flatten it out, it will then be weaker and warp even more. Also, the latches won't work right anymore, and will have to be re-mounted." And this is why I won't build B extensions. However, Ken M, yours looks quite sturdy. But can the player get his thumb around the back of it, to hold long non-latched notes?

[Ken Smith]

Ken, you've hit the nail with your head!

If only I had a hammer..:(

The thing that concerns me the most with those capos and this is speaking from personal experience playing basses with them, is when you run the knife edge of your hand back quickly, the sharp edges of the capos hurt or cut your fingers. With solid ebony fingers, there is more surface to round over and if properly adjusted, it's painless. Also, the extensions I have had from both Arnold and Jeff have a much finer tension adjustability than those threaded adjustments.

Imagine you are playing a piece and then it comes up, a low C .. :eek: .. oops.. forgot to leave the Ext. open.. Hey, no problemo.. I left 'ridge hand' it with a backwards upwards motion and open the low C in a split second.. Also, when playing the chromatic patterns like in Beeth 3rd, how fast can you close the stops? No looking, one handed, one index finger hooking the 'larger' smoothed out fine tension adjusted ebony fingers.. Much easier that the right angle cut rubber over flush cut brass.. You think?

[Ken McKay]

Ken, you've hit the nail with your head! This is exactly the problem. I have seen several B extensions, and every one of them was warping down at the end, causing a hump in the middle. The player asks, "Can you make the extension buzz go away?". And my answer is, "No, if I take away wood in the center to flatten it out, it will then be weaker and warp even more. Also, the latches won't work right anymore, and will have to be re-mounted." And this is why I won't build B extensions. However, Ken M, yours looks quite sturdy. But can the player get his thumb around the back of it, to hold long non-latched notes?

The thumb goes in there just fine except when trying to stop the Eflat. That gets tight. I left it thick for sturdiness.

I will be seeing the bass again when Christmas break comes and will get an update. I am sure this forum will be here for years to come and I will update eithier good or bad comments.

[Ken Smith]

We finally took new pics of the Big Gamba (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/mystery-bass/index.html) and updated the webpage so here's some shots of the new Bollbach Chromatic Ext..

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/MysteryBass/newpics/scroll-right-med.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/MysteryBass/newpics/scroll-front.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/MysteryBass/newpics/scroll-left-med.jpg

[Robert Anzellotti]

If only I had a hammer..:(

The thing that concerns me the most with those capos and this is speaking from personal experience playing basses with them, is when you run the knife edge of your hand back quickly, the sharp edges of the capos hurt or cut your fingers. With solid ebony fingers, there is more surface to round over and if properly adjusted, it's painless. Also, the extensions I have had from both Arnold and Jeff have a much finer tension adjustability than those threaded adjustments.

Imagine you are playing a piece and then it comes up, a low C .. :eek: .. oops.. forgot to leave the Ext. open.. Hey, no problemo.. I left 'ridge hand' it with a backwards upwards motion and open the low C in a split second.. Also, when playing the chromatic patterns like in Beeth 3rd, how fast can you close the stops? No looking, one handed, one index finger hooking the 'larger' smoothed out fine tension adjusted ebony fingers.. Much easier that the right angle cut rubber over flush cut brass.. You think?

Ken,

Are you sure you are talking about my Capos? For one thing I have never used rubber for the fingers. I tightly wrap leather over the brass (with generous amounts of CA glue to make it permanent), and sand and polish the end, which is not a sharp right angle, but has enough roundover to be comfortable.

The rotational friction is adjustable, but since I carefully set it before shipping, further adjustment is almost never desired.

As for speed, I can pop open the Eb with my index finger while in the act of going for a low D or C# without adding any time at all to the equation. While Arnold and Jeff both make excellent ebony closers, I really don't think they are faster than mine. My Capos are carefully machined with CNC technology, and the angles carefully chosen so that pressure against the string provides all the holding power necessary. Therefore, they need only minimal rotational friction to prevent rattling and to resist gravity.

My first version of Capos had a set screw to adjust tension (friction, actually). Perhaps that is the example you remember, and it was set way to tight. That would also explain the hurt fingers you describe.

I urge you to try Bass Capos again. I think you will change your mind. While many prefer ebony closers for aesthetic reasons, no one else has ever been less than entirely positive about operation.

[Vince Jesse]

Hi. I'd like to throw my hat in the ring here. I've worked on other people's extensions but never made my own from scratch. Some people have been inquiring so I figured it was time. It's solid ebony, fitted to a new Romanian bass. It's screwed down to the neck under the nut but not the scroll or cheeks.

It functions well. I would have done a couple things differently but next time I'll avoid those mistakes. Next time I'd like to make a two pulley extension that avoids the hole through the scroll (if the dimensions of the bass permits)

It's installed on a bass for sale so I think I'll wait to add capos or a fingering rail until the customer knows what he wants.

Hopefully the pictures work.

Any thoughts?

[Vince Jesse]

Here are some shots with chromatic stops now in place. I made the brass parts on my little Clausing mill.

[Ken Smith]

Here are some shots with chromatic stops now in place. I made the brass parts on my little Clausing mill.

Sorry for the late reply. The hardware reminds me a bit of Arnold's as well as Jeff's brackets. The Fingers look nice and similar as well.

[Ken Smith]

Here's some pics of *my Jacquet (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/jacquet-gand/) we took a few weeks ago but were just loaded in recently (*in the process of being sold at the time of posting.)

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/jacquet-gand/images/scroll-front.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/jacquet-gand/images/scroll-right.jpg

I have to count carefully how many Chromatic C-Extensions Arnold has made for me. Jeff made 2 so far and will make a 3rd for the Mougenot when it's fully restored...

Ok, counted them..:) Arnold has made 6 of them so far including my Panormo school Bass which was just re-photographed to show the extension. I will post that one as soon as Mike loads in the new pics.

Of the 6 from Arnold, 3 of them, the latest made have the adjustable brackets. All of Jeff's do as well. The Hart bass actually has Jeff's brackets but the extension and fingers by Arnold.

[Ken Smith]

My son Mike just loaded the Extension pics last night. the full body shots to follow when he comes back from school in a week of so as the pics are loaded here into my computer.

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/panormo-school/images/scroll-right.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/panormo-school/images/scroll-front.jpg

[Geoff Chalmers]

Amazing looking extention! Mike is lucky guy :-)

[Ken Smith]

Amazing looking extension! Mike is lucky guy :-)

That is not Mike's Bass, it's mine!:)

He just does the web work for me and takes the pictures.. :cool:

[John Delventhal]

Mario Lamarre extension on my X. Jacquet.

1530 1531 1532 1533

[Ken Smith]

Mario Lamarre extension on my X. Jacquet.

1530 1531 1532 1533

Nice bass and extension. I remember playing it when you visited. All the best with your new 'old' bass.

[Geoff Chalmers]

That is not Mike's Bass, it's mine!:)

He just does the web work for me and takes the pictures.. :cool:

:-) sorry Ken, my brain wasn't engaged when I read your post.

[Justin Leonard]

All ebony ext, sliding nut, was fingered but added capos.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Justin, how did it feel sinking that last putt to win the British Open? I had no idea you also play the bass!

[Ken Smith]

All ebony ext, sliding nut, was fingered but added capos.

This is a C or B ext? The E latch looks off to be in tune. Does it close parallel to the string? Did you save a lot of money using those generic latches as opposed to hand made Ebony ones to match your E closure?

I have tried those on other peoples basses and when I reverse 'ridge hand' it to open them up on the fly they hurt or almost cut me IF I can open them. The rounded Ebony fingers just feel so much smoother whacking them when in a hurry as I don't usually use my fingers as clamps to move them open, just the side edge of my hand/fore finger/knuckle.

This is the first tunable Chromatic Ebony fingers C/X that Arnold made for me using tunable Brackets; http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/hart/hart-restore-images/hart11.jpg
And this is the one Jeff made for me just before that using similar brackets;
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/bisiach/images/bis5.jpg]

Then, Arnold had some more brackets made up and made these two for me back to back;
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/jacquet-gand/images/scroll-right.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/panormo-school/images/scroll-right.jpg

I've had others made from both Jeff and Arnold and the ones they currently make which have slowly evolved are the best I have seen anywhere as far as function and workability goes. Well worth the difference in price if you are serious about what you put on your bass.

[Eric Hochberg]

Curious, do the hatpegs get in the way when using the extension?

[Justin Leonard]

The E latch is open on the picture, its a b-ext. i was playing it and my phone rang so since i was holding bass i leaned it forward and took the pic with my phone. my latches are also adjustable along the extension, they are the ones from basscapos.com which to me look almost exacly like the ones from the american (non-original) stop makers. and the leather on them makes a way better sound than fingered, but i think thats just the bass as it(the bass)was able to play an A with a loosened E string. as far as opening and closing on the fly i usually plan out what stops i'll need and when i forget they aren't a problem to use either my finger or thumb to open. the tension can be adjusted on them as well in case i change to strings of a different tension, i like the ebony stop too but the capos are more flush and i dont have to worry about them sticking out off the side of scroll.the hat pegs arent a problem but i did find on the beeth 5 Allegro (pg 56 if u have the O. Zimmerman complete parts book thats yellow) a slight angle if standing is helpful or sitting works best. its not needed but helps. or fingering 2(E)4(F)2(E)1(D)0(C) works to avoid grazing the hat peg. its original so its not coming off,lol.

I've checked out/played the other materials used for capos especially the ones from Robertsons, and the KC Strings (even the Lamarrio) ones and these add far less weight and dont tilt the bass over (i will mention they are great and should be matched to the players physical capabilities and instrument) . I saved way more money than is posted on most installers websites by getting fingered ext and then deciding to add capos, but according to basscapos.com, alot of widely known shops and installers use them. http://www.basscapos.com/installers.html

[Robert Anzellotti]

... Did you save a lot of money using those generic latches as opposed to hand made Ebony ones to match your E closure?

I have tried those on other peoples basses and when I reverse 'ridge hand' it to open them up on the fly they hurt or almost cut me IF I can open them. The rounded Ebony fingers just feel so much smoother whacking them when in a hurry as I don't usually use my fingers as clamps to move them open, just the side edge of my hand/fore finger/knuckle.

This is the first tunable Chromatic Ebony fingers C/X that Arnold made for me using tunable Brackets;
Then, Arnold had some more brackets made up and made these two for me back to back;

I've had others made from both Jeff and Arnold and the ones they currently make which have slowly evolved are the best I have seen anywhere as far as function and workability goes. Well worth the difference in price if you are serious about what you put on your bass.

Ken, Ken, Ken... Generic? No, Justin has the real deal installed on his bass. There are some cheap copies out there, like the ones you have on your basses. BassCapos were the first to use an adjustable U-slot design for the mounting bracket. In developing the bracket I worked to create something that was both highly adjustable and aesthetically pleasing. Your copy brackets not only look like a car part, but they don’t appear to adjust laterally. This adjustability is important for getting performance just right. You want to be able to angle them a bit forward for higher action and camber, and back a bit for lower, flatter setups.

You talk about sharp edges and hurt fingers. No one else has complained. Leather is actually softer than ebony, if I’m not mistaken. You clearly have a bias toward ebony fingers. That’s okay. Bassists who feel this way can always use my brackets and have their luthier make the fingers. Also, I have a generous return policy. If my BassCapos were as bad as you say, then I would think that many bassists would have asked for their money back. So far, not a one, and I’ve been selling them for over fifteen years. Ken, you’re all alone out there.
http://www.basscapos.com/images/scroll001-325x234.jpg

[Ken Smith]

Ron, Rob, Rob, Rob...You're a funny guy.:D:D:D:D

My capos adjust finer than your twist around ones.

By Generic I mean you BUY them and put them on. You can't BUY the Fingers on mine from a store. Mine have hand made Ebony fingers, rounded without any sharp edges at the end.

I have played yours and they are not as comfortable to use as mine. Also, the Ebony is lighter in weight than the rubber covered brass. Just check the specific gravity between ebony and brass and compare, please!

You invented the screw type adjustment? Well then, they are copies if that's the case!:p

It is good for Luthiers out there that can just stick something on an extension and not have to make it by hand. Much much easier to do and cheaper labor wise. It's just not as good in my opinion.

I am not alone out here on this. Most people with professionally made C-Extensions (all of it) are professionally employed and too busy to talk on Forums. Between rehearsals and concerts they have to practice. ;)

[Robert Anzellotti]

Ron, Rob, Rob, Rob...You're a funny guy.:D:D:D:D

My capos adjust finer than your twist around ones.

By Generic I mean you BUY them and put them on. You can't BUY the Fingers on mine from a store. Mine have hand made Ebony fingers, rounded without ant sharp edges at the end.

I have played yours and they are not as comfortable to use as mine. Also, the Ebony is lighter in weight than the rubber covered brass. Just check the specific gravity between ebony and brass and compare, please!

You invented the screw type adjustment? Well then, they are copies if that's the case!:p

It is good for Luthiers out there that can just stick something on an extension and not have to make it by hand. Much much easier to do and cheaper labor wise. It's just not as good in my opinion.

I am not alone out here on this. Most people with professionally made C-Extensions (all of it) are professionally employed and too busy to talk on Forums. Between rehearsals and concerts they have to practice. ;)

Ken, Ken, Ken,

Okay, I'll bite.

Adjustability? One turn changes the height by 1/24th of an inch. That is the rough adjustment. From there you can adjust the vertical position or angle of the mounting bracket on the extension via the screws. Your brackets don't seem to offer this flexibility. What do you do for adjustment, add washers?

Weight? I never talked about weight. Sure ebony is lighter than brass, but still I bet my fingers are lighter than yours. My standard finger (including threaded stud, and there is no nut) weighs 18 grams. Also, LEATHER, no rubber!!!

"stick something on"? Well that was the whole idea of my product. Why should a luthier (who is not a machinist or engineer) have to make something like this over and over again, one at a time? Do the best luthiers always make their own endpin sockets or tailpieces? Does doing so improve the instrument? Also, how is it that your copy brackets are not "sticking something on"? Is each unit custom made? They all look pretty much alike too me.

"You invented the screw type adjustment?"
I didn't really invent anything. I was, however, the first to employ U-slots for C-Extension mounting brackets. The idea seems obvious now, but I was doing it commercially for like 12 years before any copies appeared. As far as the "screw adjustment", if you mean adjusting height by number of turns, then I'm still the only one who does it.

"Most people with professionally made C-Extensions (all of it) are professionally employed and too busy to talk on Forums".
Yeah! and many of them are enjoying a high quality closure device - made by me!

Ken, I know that I won't turn you around on your opinion of my product, but I do respect you for letting my posts stand on your forum. I'm probably doing myself more harm than good by writing here anyway, but best wishes!

[Ken Smith]

I don't mind at all the discussion or arguments. Some swear the Mechanical Extension is better. There, we stand in the same ditch fighting together. And then, there are the 5-string players telling all of us that Extensions are a cheap fix for not having a 5er.

For me, I like moving the capos without looking when moving fast. If I forget to open the C or any other note, I bend my wrist and quickly slide it upwards along the extension opining all the 'fingers' with my forefinger knuckles near my thumb. In Martial Arts we call this 'ridge hand'. I do it with the fingers pointing down and my wrist up as I hit it back fast opening it in a second or so between notes having forgot to open it before. Even when not forgetting, I use this method to open it so its like a reverse or upside down ridge hand.

Normal hand/fingers like this; http://www.skkifwatford.co.uk/Techniques%20%28500%29/Haito%20hand%202.JPG

With your Capos Rob, they are a bit small for one and the outer edge with the covered brass shows is sharp or squared there and not rounded or softened around the edges like the ebony fingers. Can you make the fingers bigger and with rounded edges?

[Arnold Schnitzer]

OK, I'll join the fray. Rob, I think your capos are a good second choice for making an extension chromatic. If they were the best thing out there, you'd see Robertson's, Mario Lamarre, Dan Hachez, Jeff Bollbach, Robbie McIntosh and me using them exclusively. I do use your capos on occasion when retro-fitting an existing extension or when a player needs to economize. But I prefer ebony for its aesthetics and feel. If you made brackets that looked as pretty as your current ones, that worked with standard 1/4 x 20 hardware, and they stood off a bit more, I would buy them. I believe there is a place for both pre-made capos and custom ones. Ken has an opinion that you don't like, but the world is full of people who disagree yet get along.

[Robert Anzellotti]

OK, I'll join the fray. Rob, I think your capos are a good second choice for making an extension chromatic. If they were the best thing out there, you'd see Robertson's, Mario Lamarre, Dan Hachez, Jeff Bollbach, Robbie McIntosh and me using them exclusively. I do use your capos on occasion when retro-fitting an existing extension or when a player needs to economize. But I prefer ebony for its aesthetics and feel. If you made brackets that looked as pretty as your current ones, that worked with standard 1/4 x 20 hardware, and they stood off a bit more, I would buy them. I believe there is a place for both pre-made capos and custom ones. Ken has an opinion that you don't like, but the world is full of people who disagree yet get along.

Well, Geez! why didn't you say so before?;) I'd be happy to make some mounts to fit your needs. I agree that there are advantages to wood fingers. They can be shaped artistically to fit a particular bass, and even a special wood or finish chosen. There are those like Ken who simply prefer a larger surface for finger contact, and some people want a tail so they can have thumb operation. I designed my fingers to be simple, compact, unobtrusive, and universal. It's impractical for me to offer too many options, and I can keep my price low by offering only the single design in two lengths.

Many bassists and luthiers are happy with my finger design (otherwise I wouldn't be in business!) but I realize that this doesn't fit everyone's needs. For them, I encourage the use of wood fingers, which can be easily mated with my mounting hardware. I am happy to sell the brackets by themselves, so the luthier can go wild making the fingers, and not have to worry about machining.

One final note. I use the slightly larger stud because it is not only more stable, but allows for my "internal brake" which eliminates the need for a locknut for resistance adjustment. Also, the threaded approach makes for simpler height adjustment. This makes the assembly simpler (fewer parts), lighter, more reliable, and easier to install than with the traditional approach. I think that these innovations are a step forward on the design side, but I conceed that it also makes later resistance adjustments more difficult. I am no fundamentalist. Arnold, if you want a bracket with a 1/4" thru hole and appropriate races for washers, I'd be happy to accommodate you! Let's talk.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Well, Geez! why didn't you say so before?;) I'd be happy to make some mounts to fit your needs. I agree that there are advantages to wood fingers. They can be shaped artistically to fit a particular bass, and even a special wood or finish chosen. There are those like Ken who simply prefer a larger surface for finger contact, and some people want a tail so they can have thumb operation. I designed my fingers to be simple, compact, unobtrusive, and universal. It's impractical for me to offer too many options, and I can keep my price low by offering only the single design in two lengths.

Many bassists and luthiers are happy with my finger design (otherwise I wouldn't be in business!) but I realize that this doesn't fit everyone's needs. For them, I encourage the use of wood fingers, which can be easily mated with my mounting hardware. I am happy to sell the brackets by themselves, so the luthier can go wild making the fingers, and not have to worry about machining.

One final note. I use the slightly larger stud because it is not only more stable, but allows for my "internal brake" which eliminates the need for a locknut for resistance adjustment. Also, the threaded approach makes for simpler height adjustment. This makes the assembly simpler (fewer parts), lighter, more reliable, and easier to install than with the traditional approach. I think that these innovations are a step forward on the design side, but I conceed that it also makes later resistance adjustments more difficult. I am no fundamentalist. Arnold, if you want a bracket with a 1/4" thru hole and appropriate races for washers, I'd be happy to accommodate you! Let's talk.Good stuff, Rob. I agree with you that the bracket should be threaded. One other thing I've been doing is using small machine screws to mount the brackets. It's a pain in the butt drilling and tapping all those holes in the ebony, but the excellent hold makes it worthwhile.

[Vince Jesse]

The manufacturing industry in the United States is dying. If someone in the U.S. has an idea for any musical instrument related product I suggest that we keep all aspects of production right here in the USA. And have it made locally.

When I designed my "capos" it was about five years ago, before I had even looked at Mr. Anzellotti's. None of these designs are a novel concept, just a proven style of adjustable bracket found on all types of assemblies for hundreds or thousands of years. I was asked to come up with something to install on extensions with poorly functioning stops. It seems like mine ended up being a similar concept but easier and cheaper to make. If you have files, a few drills, taps and a drill press you could make them. Also, the standoff distance or bracket width is adjustable - simply disassemble the two brass parts, belt sand until you have the dimension that works then re polish.

I like the idea of an adjustable, easy to mount bracket. It just makes sense in many ways. With that said I think ebony fingers are much more comfortable and allow an individual, artistic touch. Kind of like decorating a bridge.

Arguing about who's capos are most attractive is pretty dumb. I'd say a more important question is do you want to be at the mercy of someone else's product or design? No, you don't.

[Adrian Levi]

I don't mind at all the discussion or arguments. Some swear the Mechanical Extension is better. There, we stand in the same ditch fighting together. And then, there are the 5-string players telling all of us that Extensions are a cheap fix for not having a 5er.

For me, I like moving the capos without looking when moving fast. If I forget to open the C or any other note, I bend my wrist and quickly slide it upwards along the extension opining all the 'fingers' with my forefinger knuckles near my thumb. In Martial Arts we call this 'ridge hand'. I do it with the fingers pointing down and my wrist up as I hit it back fast opening it in a second or so between notes having forgot to open it before. Even when not forgetting, I use this method to open it so its like a reverse or upside down ridge hand.

Normal hand/fingers like this; http://www.skkifwatford.co.uk/Techniques%20%28500%29/Haito%20hand%202.JPG

With your Capos Rob, they are a bit small for one and the outer edge with the covered brass shows is sharp or squared there and not rounded or softened around the edges like the ebony fingers. Can you make the fingers bigger and with rounded edges?


Now THATS one mean hand !!

I'd hate to be in the pit next to you !! One could loose ones entire scroll (if not your life ) in a split second if something went wrong whilst
trying to martial art the extension into tune !

I would opt to wear a bikers helmet or even have a sniper on standby in the wings just in case ! :D:D:D:D

[Arnold Schnitzer]

The manufacturing industry in the United States is dying.
If that were completely true, this forum would not exist. But the gist of your sentence is on the money. I want to know who were the "geniuses" who decided that America could have a vibrant economy without anyone making much of anything? Did they really think we could all just swap information and loans and that this would somehow lead us down a positive economic path? (Sorry for the thread derail.)

[Ken Smith]

If that were completely true, this forum would not exist. But the gist of your sentence is on the money. I want to know who were the "geniuses" who decided that America could have a vibrant economy without anyone making much of anything? Did they really think we could all just swap information and loans and that this would somehow lead us down a positive economic path? (Sorry for the thread derail.)

Arnold, it's the physical labor that keeps it afloat. 'Paper pushing'!:eek:

No, let's talk about 'FINE' tuning the extension Capos. Rob mentioned his full turn measurement (1/24th of an inch) which is just a tad over .040" (1 div. by 24). That is nearly a 'G' string in height. WAY, way too crude for my taste. I can adjust my Capos with the top screw and back nut just a tweak as the leather settles or if I change gauges of strings. If I use an Original Flatchrome at almost .110, or a Flex Stark at .106 or a regular Flex 92 e/c at .102 I can tweak the tension just right. That would be 1/10th the need adjustment from .106" to .102" which is .004", not .040". HUGE difference. Turning a screw 10x what you need is NOT a fine adjustment in my book. Not even close. Sorry!

Some people just get used to what they have. Once you have seen the other side of the road, you may not go back.

[Ken Smith]

The Manuf. in USA Rants are to be discussed in the Bull Pit. I moved one post here to the 'Pit (http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=1562).

If it's not about 'Show Your Extensions', then post it where it belongs.

[Ken Smith]

Rob-thanks - I have to say that this last extension that I made was the easiest because I used Rob Anzellotti capos. I don't see anything about them to complain about and they are really easy to install.They are well made with more than just turn the stop and hope for the best engineering.

No matter how good the stops, gates, or whatever you want to call the things you turn - it's hard not to look to see if it's right.

The great thing about Rob's capos is that they can be added on so easily. I would go so far to say that anyone who can use a screw driver can install the side-mounted capos. However, it would be best to let a bass luthier install them for the best result. This is my opinion and experience.

Ken- my favorite of all the extensions pictured was yours- the one that you had on the last post-I think- not much brass showing-very cool!

Which Bass was that Wayne. I have had so many of them. As far as Rob's Capos, I agree they are easy and ready made as compared to the hand made/fit Ebony Capos I get on my Extensions from Arnold and Jeff BUT, I have played Basses with those Capos as well. You get what you pay for. They are not as easy to use as far as flipping them open fast or playing them blind above your head and they do not adjust as fine as far as tension goes. You have limits there to the fixed ration of the screw threads.

If you can't get them handmade or afford them to the quality of the ones made by hand by the better Luthiers that do these then Rob's would be better than bad handmade ones. I would place them as an alternative but not as a premium choice, in my opinion.;)

I am about to get three or four more extensions made in the next few months. These will be on the new inspired Storioni copy bass, the Storioni (former att.) bass itself, the Mougenot by Jeff and possibly the Malvolti labeled Florentine bass I just got. I don't seem to be able to do without one now that I've been using an Extension of this grade for the last several years. I played some Jazz sets last week and even used it there. Having it and not using it seems a waste, written for or not!:eek: (don't tell the conductor, please..:()

[Ken Smith]

[quote=Ken Smith;20743]Which Bass was that Wayne.

The one on the "Big Gamba" on page 2----it just has a lot of class-it looks perfectly made


hows come the pictures show up sometimes and sometimes don't?
We finally took new pics of the Big Gamba (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/mystery-bass/index.html) and updated the webpage so here's some shots of the new Bollbach Chromatic Ext..

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/MysteryBass/newpics/scroll-right-med.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/MysteryBass/newpics/scroll-front.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/MysteryBass/newpics/scroll-left-med.jpg


Pics don't sometimes? I have no idea why. That is an Extension from Jeff, the 2nd of 3 he has made for me so far. All 3 seem about the same master quality. The 4th is yet to come, on the Mougenot he is restoring now.

[Ken Smith]

I have posted pics of most of the extensions I've had made but since my last pic post here I have had a few more done. Two of the basses have been sold already but there's no harm in showing off their extended heads. These include a Jacquet-Gand, the Schnitzer-Smith-Riccardi commission and the original Riccardi-Storioni.

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/jacquet-gand/images/scroll-front.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/schnitzer-smith/images/scroll-front.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/storioni/images/scroll-front.jpg

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/jacquet-gand/images/scroll-right.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/schnitzer-smith/images/scroll-right.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/storioni/images/scroll-right.jpg

Enjoy.. :cool:

[Ken Smith]

The above 3 extensions were by Arnold. Here are two more from Jeff Bollbach. One is the Mougenot and one the Neuner.

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/vuillaume/images/scroll-front.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/vuillaume/images/scroll-right.jpg
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/mittenwald/images/scroll-front.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/mittenwald/images/scroll-right.jpg

The Neuner is also a Bass I use personally for just about any type of gig but the Storioni is currently my 'classy' Orchestra bass along with the Hart depending on which way the wind blows.. ;)

[Vince Jesse]

Hi guys. I installed another C extension and would like to show it around here. This time I benefited from earlier experimentation and I'd like to think this one is a bit more refined. No need for the bottom of the extension to be flat and straight for the thumb because the side rail takes care of that duty.

Thoughts?

[Ken Smith]

Side rail? Interesting. I wouldn't screw someing like that into my Scrolls but I can see the sharp gear edges can get painful. Practice Beethoven 6th's storm movement on the Extension, the individual 16ths and you will see with each bass what needs to be done. You can even buff the edges of the gears to get the sharp edges softened. One old bass gears, many of them are worn and smooth by now. My Tarr is very smooth now.

Speaking of the Tarr (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/tarr/), the page isn't up yet but I have some pics. They are dark and I will probably re-take them or lighten them up for the page but here's a look at the Extension Arnold made for it;

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/tarr/images/scroll-right.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/tarr/images/scroll-front.jpg

The fit of the Extension and String on and around the Scroll was a challenge on this being that the face of the head is so thin. Arnold made it work both artistically and structurally as well.

[Vince Jesse]

The rail was there before I got there but the owner of the bass makes great use of it.

As I finished this one up I was thinking about how much work these are. Very challenging. - they have to function well and be beautiful to look at.

[Ken Smith]

The rail was there before I got there but the owner of the bass makes great use of it.

As I finished this one up I was thinking about how much work these are. Very challenging. - they have to function well and be beautiful to look at.

Yes, she has to have looks and brains.. :)

[Scott Pope]

And now for something completely different: I understand that C extensions have to be what they are when converting a standard bass.

BUT -- they do seem unwieldy. Now, regarding new construction, or in the event a bass has had its pegbox and/or scroll mangled to the point of having to be rebuilt anyway, and there is no historical reason to simply copy what was there, has anybody designed or executed 1+3 pegbox with the extension and stops integrated into the overall design and scroll, and not just as an add-on?

[Eric Hochberg]

^^^ http://www.lamario.ca/extension.php?lang=english

[Scott Pope]

Nice. Thanks.

[Vince Jesse]

I'll post one last C extension I made as I seem to be honing in on a particular look. This is installed on a Calin Wultur "Elite" bass.

Any thoughts?

[Ken Smith]

I'll post one last C extension I made as I seem to be honing in on a particular look. This is installed on a Calin Wultur "Elite" bass.

Any thoughts?

Very nice looking work.

[Vince Jesse]

Thanks, Ken.

[Bryan Leinwand]

D extension

[Joshua phelps]

Ken

Is it really as labour intensive as they say to make a proper extension? I saw you said you were making them in your shop now, did you make the one for the hart? It looks great.

[Joshua phelps]

"labor" sorry my auto spell thinks we are in europe

[Ken Smith]

Ken

Is it really as labour intensive as they say to make a proper extension? I saw you said you were making them in your shop now, did you make the one for the hart? It looks great.

I never said I made them in my shop, sorry.

All my extensions are by Arnold or Jeff so far.

Compared to other extensions I have seen, these are the best so far. I have tried other extensions from various basses that come thru the Orchestra and basses that come in here and sometimes, I feel sorry for them. The one with those 'easy to install' Capos cannot be flipped with the back edge of your fore finger on the fly. More likely with these and others with sharp points, you will hurt yourself. Using a full hand or two hands even to hold your bass and flip or close a capo makes a 5-string bass look more appealing.

[Joshua phelps]

I guess I read than incorrectly, still a nice extension though.

[Bryan Leinwand]

No one noticed that my odd D extension is actually made from a single fingerboard with the extension cut out.
Half size string length with added 2 notes on a 1/8th size bass. Tuned A D G C with a low G.
Bass bar and soundpost modifications were necessary.
The bass sounds great.

[Anselm Hauke]

wow, how do you change the strings? esp. at the two lower machines.

[Ken Smith]

No one noticed that my odd D extension is actually made from a single fingerboard with the extension cut out.
Half size string length with added 2 notes on a 1/8th size bass. Tuned A D G C with a low G.
Bass bar and soundpost modifications were necessary.
The bass sounds great.

What is the string length on your bass? And, the low? C tuning is with the extension included or in addition?

[Thomas Erickson]

D extension

That's... unusual, at least! :D

Got any more pics? What do you use the bass for?

[Jeff Schwartz]

Lemur had this bass for a while:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2wWDdPSvnQ

It's the only other D extension I've seen.

[Ken Smith]

Lemur had this bass for a while:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2wWDdPSvnQ

It's the only other D extension I've seen.

Watching them both open that extension, they need both hands to do so. Opening that thing on the fly if at all possible with one hand of the edge or it while playing will definitely cause injury. That Extension would not be useful in an Orchestra unless pre-set to D or E. Also, fingering the E note with the 'flipper' open doesn't look easy as well to get in there close.

If you have an Extension, it should be to a 'C' and nothing less. Why bother at all putting something on? I can tune down and back up as easy or more to D or Eb without any alteration to the bass. I did a rehearsal last week playing the New World Symphony, the 3rd time in a year as I did it with two other Orchestras last season. In the beginning are two low Eb's and I used my C-Extensions set at first to Eb for the start and later down the page I closed it to E for the rest of the piece. Last week I just tuned down to Eb for the start and tuned back up with no sweat being that it was just a rehearsal, leaving my bigger basses at home that I have extensions on.

I think putting on a D-extension is like doing it half way. It makes no sense to me and if you can't change back and forth while playing without interruption, it's not a workable extension in my opinion.

[Bryan Leinwand]

Well heres how it went:
I started of with a 1/8th size bass. (about 80cm i think?).
Its my feeling that at least for me qualitatively, a half size string length is the absolute minimum. So 97 cm. In order to achieve this with the same neck heel note, I had to extend the string length in both directions. I have a D extension on my Romanian 1/2 size with 97cm string length so this bass was made to match. BTW the D extension with the open A and D is great. The notes reinforce and actually swell when in tune.
Extra long fingerboard. Normal width tapered in the back to the neck width. With one tuner turned around and most of the bottom curve to the pegbox taken away, the two extra notes can be fingered in one easy motion.

Since moving the bridge down sets the bridge on a stiffer part of the top, some internal mods were done, and a lot of tension was taken off with a very high French style tailpiece. This is a low tension system. Sound post is above the bridge.

To bring out the upper bass resonance peak when playing acoustically a hole was made in the shoulder to compensate for the small cavity (and top and string length) that is expected to reproduce the same tuning as a normal instrument. In a smaller system dealing with the same low tuning, the alignment changes and the bass is much more critical and sensitive to small changes. The bass was made to amplify, but has a well balanced sound acoustically if not as loud. The goal was to make the bass work correctly "mechanically". I found that by only amplifying just the missing parts of the lowest octave it can sound like a well balanced normal sized instrument played acoustically. Mostly I play fully amplified though. As far as comfort, It balances well and the feel of the board and the string spacing are even better than my 1/2 size.

Oh, one last note. Its now tuned a d g c with a g extension. so I only lose 3 half steps. Evah pirazzi c was the only string I could find that wasn't thin and twangy. Same thickness as the spirocore G. A pleasure to play. The bass is now antiqued black like the bass I bought from Ken in 84. It was immediately taken more seriously as people tend to hear with their eyes.

[Bryan Leinwand]

wow, how do you change the strings? esp. at the two lower machines.

It is is a bit more difficult, but nothing that a long nose plier couldn't make much easier.

[Ken Smith]

Well heres how it went:
I started of with a 1/8th size bass. (about 80cm i think?).
Its my feeling that at least for me qualitatively, a half size string length is the absolute minimum. So 97 cm. In order to achieve this with the same neck heel note, I had to extend the string length in both directions. I have a D extension on my Romanian 1/2 size with 97cm string length so this bass was made to match. BTW the D extension with the open A and D is great. The notes reinforce and actually swell when in tune.
Extra long fingerboard. Normal width tapered in the back to the neck width. With one tuner turned around and most of the bottom curve to the pegbox taken away, the two extra notes can be fingered in one easy motion.

Since moving the bridge down sets the bridge on a stiffer part of the top, some internal mods were done, and a lot of tension was taken off with a very high French style tailpiece. This is a low tension system. Sound post is above the bridge.

To bring out the upper bass resonance peak when playing acoustically a hole was made in the shoulder to compensate for the small cavity (and top and string length) that is expected to reproduce the same tuning as a normal instrument. In a smaller system dealing with the same low tuning, the alignment changes and the bass is much more critical and sensitive to small changes. The bass was made to amplify, but has a well balanced sound acoustically if not as loud. The goal was to make the bass work correctly "mechanically". I found that by only amplifying just the missing parts of the lowest octave it can sound like a well balanced normal sized instrument played acoustically. Mostly I play fully amplified though. As far as comfort, It balances well and the feel of the board and the string spacing are even better than my 1/2 size.

Oh, one last note. Its now tuned a d g c with a g extension. so I only lose 3 half steps. Evah pirazzi c was the only string I could find that wasn't thin and twangy. Same thickness as the spirocore G. A pleasure to play. The bass is now antiqued black like the bass I bought from Ken in 84. It was immediately taken more seriously as people tend to hear with their eyes.

Ok, so you are doing something completely different here. Especially with the sound post above the bridge. That, I think will be trouble down the road. This thread about C-extensions is mainly for Orchestra basses as I see very little use for it in other areas of music. You seem to have found something else to apply it too and with a smaller that regular bass. Good luck with it.

[Bryan Leinwand]

Can you explain why you think the post above will cause trouble down the line?

[Ken Smith]

Can you explain why you think the post above will cause trouble down the line?

Was the post perfectly fit to begin with? If not, it is already damaging the Top. Possibly it will crack the top or poke thru it. I have never heard of the post being above the bridge. Playing a 1/2 sized basses with an extension and tuned up a 4th is a Tenor bass of sorts, not a double bass. So, everything is weird about this. Post some pictures so we don't all get a headache trying to imagine this. It is way off topic anyway so we might as well end the story with some visuals. ;)

[Bryan Leinwand]

Was the post perfectly fit to begin with? If not, it is already damaging the Top. Possibly it will crack the top or poke thru it. I have never heard of the post being above the bridge. Playing a 1/2 sized basses with an extension and tuned up a 4th is a Tenor bass of sorts, not a double bass. So, everything is weird about this. Post some pictures so we don't all get a headache trying to imagine this. It is way off topic anyway so we might as well end the story with some visuals. ;)

With all due repect, anyone concerned with the mechanics of a bass might be interested. If not, no harm done.
Is it off topic then?

The soundpost of course was refitted. Maybe you thought I would have just moved it as it was after doing all this work. Where's the argument here? I see none. I think that it arises from its unconventionality.

Haven't jazz players used extensions by the way? Is this forum only for classical bassists. Is it only for traditional techniques? is it open minded?
I would hope so.
I would hope to find any interesting or even controversial information in a forum such a this. Is that not what a forum is about?
We can all learn something here.

The bass works well as a contrabass too. And like I said, as a tenor bass, with the extension it only loses three 1/2 steps.

[Bryan Leinwand]

One thing, when I say above, I don't mean clear of the foot. Same position as what would be called below.

[Robert Anzellotti]

http://www.smithbassforums.com/[IMG]http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo340/robobass/Purple%20Heart/100_9816.jpghttp://www.smithbassforums.com/[IMG]http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo340/robobass/Purple%20Heart/100_9816.jpghttp://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo340/robobass/Purple%20Heart/100_9816.jpg

Slideshow:
http://s389.photobucket.com/albums/oo340/robobass/Purple%20Heart/?albumview=slideshow

I still haven't mounted it. Also need to smooth out the varnish a bit. This is the only one I've made from scratch. I ended up with just enough room to bring the string back over the scroll and over a second smaller pulley which sends the string down to the "A" tuner.

Ken, you make a valid point about the sharp ends of the fingers, but the example you saw was very early work. For many years now I have a greatly improved leather wrap, including a larger radius at the end. If this is still not enough, I can on special request wrap a thicker band of leather and make an even softer edge, but everyone out there who uses them seems perfectly happy the way they are. There is an aesthetic thing here too. Some people prefer so see less bulk on their scroll!

[JoeyNaeger]

Looks great, I was thinking a two piece extension would make routing the string around the scroll easy. Glad to see someone implement it the way I imagined. Here is an extension I finished last night.

[Robert Anzellotti]

Looks great, I was thinking a two piece extension would make routing the string around the scroll easy. Glad to see someone implement it the way I imagined. Here is an extension I finished last night.

Yeah. It would certainly be much more difficult to do a multi-pulley design out of a single piece - at least with my skill level. I was able to do all of the slotting for the string path and pulleys with a table saw. I know most people consider it a crude tool, but I bet I could make a working clock with one if I had to! I chose this piece of purple heart because I knew that with a clear varnish it would exceptionally compliment the red varnish in my Geiger. It will be awhile before I can actually mount it since the bass is in the shop for another repair, but I'll post results when I can.

[Ken Smith]

http://www.smithbassforums.com/[IMG]http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo340/robobass/Purple%20Heart/100_9816.jpghttp://www.smithbassforums.com/[IMG]http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo340/robobass/Purple%20Heart/100_9816.jpghttp://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo340/robobass/Purple%20Heart/100_9816.jpg

Slideshow:
http://s389.photobucket.com/albums/oo340/robobass/Purple%20Heart/?albumview=slideshow

I still haven't mounted it. Also need to smooth out the varnish a bit. This is the only one I've made from scratch. I ended up with just enough room to bring the string back over the scroll and over a second smaller pulley which sends the string down to the "A" tuner.

Ken, you make a valid point about the sharp ends of the fingers, but the example you saw was very early work. For many years now I have a greatly improved leather wrap, including a larger radius at the end. If this is still not enough, I can on special request wrap a thicker band of leather and make an even softer edge, but everyone out there who uses them seems perfectly happy the way they are. There is an aesthetic thing here too. Some people prefer so see less bulk on their scroll!

Rob, I am all for innovation but for ease of quick flipping them from the edge with a back hand motion, the outer edge of your capos are still at a 90 degree angle and not rounded on the front edge, just around. That is the area I am referring to. Look at the ebony fingers on these examples and see what I mean about rounded. Not the top, but the outer edges.

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/martini/restore-images/scrollFR.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/vuillaume/images/scroll-front.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/hart/hart-restore-images/hart9.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/tarr/images/scroll-front.jpg

Here you can see varying degrees of rounding regardless of the mounting method, size or shape of the fingers. If your Capos could be smooth on the edges like these, it would make a world of difference.

The other argument is the tension. You said one full turn was 1/24". Is that correct? If the threads were finer it would adjust that much finer? Correct? Well, if I go from a .105" diameter E-string to a .108" diam. string, I can turn my top screw just a fraction, not a full turn, so it feels the same. With a 1:24 ratio, it would not be possible to adjust .001-.003" as yours have a fixed amount per turn. If I go from .102" to .108" it falls in the middle again. One turn too little and 2 turns too much. I adjust my 'fingers' as the weather changes and the string slightly grooves itself into the finger pads or when I change strings to a different gauge. I think .004166" (1/24th") is a bit hit and miss to get the tension just right if you are finicky about it.

Your newest extension does look nice however. :cool:

[JoeyNaeger]

Yeah. It would certainly be much more difficult to do a multi-pulley design out of a single piece - at least with my skill level. I was able to do all of the slotting for the string path and pulleys with a table saw. I know most people consider it a crude tool, but I bet I could make a working clock with one if I had to! I chose this piece of purple heart because I knew that with a clear varnish it would exceptionally compliment the red varnish in my Geiger. It will be awhile before I can actually mount it since the bass is in the shop for another repair, but I'll post results when I can.

If I had a table saw, that's how I would do it. A router works fine too. You'll notice Mine goes around the scroll as well, but it's one piece. I took some trickery to make it all work, but the string intunates nicely.Your solution is very elegant looking however. I like how the holes are blind on the one side. Someday I'll do a two piece extension like you've done.

[Robert Anzellotti]

Rob, I am all for innovation but for ease of quick flipping them from the edge with a back hand motion, the outer edge of your capos are still at a 90 degree angle and not rounded on the front edge, just around. That is the area I am referring to. Look at the ebony fingers on these examples and see what I mean about rounded. Not the top, but the outer edges.

Photos deleted for brevity


Here you can see varying degrees of rounding regardless of the mounting method, size or shape of the fingers. If your Capos could be smooth on the edges like these, it would make a world of difference.

The other argument is the tension. You said one full turn was 1/24". Is that correct? If the threads were finer it would adjust that much finer? Correct? Well, if I go from a .105" diameter E-string to a .108" diam. string, I can turn my top screw just a fraction, not a full turn, so it feels the same. With a 1:24 ratio, it would not be possible to adjust .001-.003" as yours have a fixed amount per turn. If I go from .102" to .108" it falls in the middle again. One turn too little and 2 turns too much. I adjust my 'fingers' as the weather changes and the string slightly grooves itself into the finger pads or when I change strings to a different gauge. I think .004166" (1/24th") is a bit hit and miss to get the tension just right if you are finicky about it.

Your newest extension does look nice however. :cool:

Ken, as I said, I could always make a thicker leather wrap and do more roundover. There have been no no requests for this.

Let us separate tension and height. On my latches, tension (rotational resistance) is "set at the factory" if you will, and is unrelated to intonation. Only finger height and to a degree angle of incidence affect where the finger stops on the string.

As for adjustment, the slots in the mounting brackets allow for a lot of movement, so the Capos are plenty adjustable beyond # of screw turns. This is not the case with the E-Stop I concede, but there are ways to deal with this, and all my installers seem to make it work without incident.

As for later intonation adjustments, it doesn't seem to be necessary except when changing string gauge. A dimple presses into the leather during the first days, but the leather doesn't wear or further compress after that. Perhaps it varies from bass to bass, but on my main axe I've had Capos installed for fifteen years, and I've only ever adjusted them when changing string gauge.

My closure system is a significant departure from standard designs, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work:)

[Robert Anzellotti]

If I had a table saw, that's how I would do it. A router works fine too. You'll notice Mine goes around the scroll as well, but it's one piece. I took some trickery to make it all work, but the string intunates nicely.Your solution is very elegant looking however. I like how the holes are blind on the one side. Someday I'll do a two piece extension like you've done.

You can do alot with a router, of course. Did you channel from the back and then glue in a patch where it touches the scroll? Thinking more about it, this also seems like a good approach, whichever tool you use. Still, you're right. doing a two piece means you've got a nice flat surface against the table. It's gotta be easier!

[JoeyNaeger]

No, I just did some very careful drilling. One hole from the back of the extension, and then another connecting that hole to the tuning shaft.

[Ken Smith]

These 3 Extensions were made by Luthier Mike Magee near Pittsburgh, Pa.
http://www.smithbassforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2808&d=1373916496http://www.smithbassforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2802&d=1373913967http://www.smithbassforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2799&d=1373913455

These are very well made, as are the other extensions I have gotten from Arnold Schnitzer and Jeff Bollbach. These have very good mechanics but different than both Jeff's and Arnold's work which are different to each other as well. All 3 of these Luthiers now use tunable brackets with hand made ebony fingers.

[Matthew Tucker]

Here's an extension I made for my Lott model bass.

The stick is Jarrah, the latches are an extremely hard local desert wood called Doolalia. Harder than ebony.

I chose not to use ebony for the body or fingerboard, as I wanted the extension to look a part of the scroll, not as a chunky addition.

[John Cubbage]

Wow! That is a nice design and nice work. It looks like you brought the Long E string around the top wheel for a 180 degree turn, then on a second wheel, diverted the string to the "E string" gear. That trick is new to me.

You have a Lott bass. I recall that Henry Scott of the Philadelphia Orchestra played a Lott bass while he was in the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra prior to his tenure in the Philly. I believe his was of very dark brown varnish.

Very nice job on your extension.

-Dr. C.