Beethoven's 6th, Storm! (far from Perfect!)

[Ken Smith]

Hi guys, once again I am here to 'learn' from the pool of experienced Classical players as well as any others that feel like joining in the discussion.

My first Concert in October '07 will include Beeth. 6th. "The Storm" section moves quite quickly but my main problem/question here is the lower notes between the Low C and Low Eb below the 4-string range. :(

I am running thru it now with my Bisiach and its new Extension (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Bisiach/images/bis5.jpg) but as beautiful a job Jeff did I still think a 5-string Bass (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Mystery2/Hungarian.htm) might be more practical. I would make a bet that in Europe, you would find just about everyone playing the notes down there in this piece would be using a 5er rather than a C-Ext. One hazard is see is tearing the skin off my left hand from the Tuner Gears on the G and D strings reaching across and moving up and down rapidly. :mad:

I was hoping to use my newly restored Hart Bass (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Hart/Hart.htm) if it's done by then which is very possible and that will have one of Arnold's Extensions on it but looking at the speed of this 'Storm' I think the 5er might be a better call.

Pros and Cons as I can see it??

Pros:
1) The 5er has a huge sound and I wont have to play as hard to be heard.
2) The 5er is a 41 1/4" string length making it easier to play those fast runs shifting up and down in the Storm.
3) It is not even July yet and I have plenty of time to pick up my 5er from Arnold and start shedding it.

Cons:
1) The 5er has 1" spacing at the Bridge which makes it harder to avoid the neighboring strings as opposed to the 1 1/16" on the 4-string Bass.
2) The Bisiach and Hart are both 42" string length making is slightly longer and more difficult especially in the Lower and Sub Lower positions between the open C-Ext and 2nd Position.
3) The Low 'B' String is used only when needed making the E-String harder to play and confusing all around.
4) Playing the Ext. notes will be nearly impossible to reach and play in tune at the speed of the Storm not to mention dangerous for my knuckles.. 'ouch'!.. Mediccccc........:eek:

Ok now you Orchestra guys especially the ones from Europe and you know who you are, what do you suggest I do to pull this off and most importantly. WHY?? :confused:

[Anselm Hauke]

Ken,

For me the question divides in two parts:

What bass to use i played with an extension only 2-3 times when I was bass-shopping outside of germany. We have hardly any basses with extensions here, only five-stringers. I´ve never seen an extension in a german proffesional orchestra.
A pic of my 5er is attached.
With this bass I played the LvB 6th severals times.

Regarding my limited comparisons I think it will be much more easy for you to use your hungarian 5-string bass, because the ways between the notes are much shorter, it´s much easier for the left hand to move 1-2 inch between the 5 strings than to move all along the extension.
Regarding the string spacing: it´s just a matter of practice I think, and maybe you´ll need less practice-time for this, than you would need for trying to play the semiquavers with the extension.

What notes to play I think the “storm” is a kind of special effect with the methods of the 19th century. To make it sound like a storm it´s not necessary for the bass-section to play all notes in time and tune.
The effect is achieved if the basses try to to this…
I´m not saying to fake it, I think it´s important to practice the part as best as you can (if the conductor let´s you play it alone, you know why…)
But if you listen to concerts of very good orchestras it always sounds a little bit more like “storm” than like a highly precise machinerie, and I think that’s what beethoven wanted.

[Ken Smith]

Thank you very much for that reinsurance.

Your Bass looks beautiful. Would you mind telling us a little about it as well as its sound with maybe some comparisons to other regular Basses.

Also, what exact Strings do you have on that bass now as well as what other Strings you have used or tried that worked or didn't work.

At the moment, I have a regular set of Flexocors (92s) on the G-E and a Permanent B-string. I tried mixing the Flex G&D with 3 Perms on the bottom as you can see on my web page (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Mystery2/5str_imgs/m2_f.JPG) but the Perms bowed slightly scratchy as compared to the Flexes on the A&E.

[Nick Hart]

Hey Ken -

For that storm passage, it's pretty much a widespread understanding that you just move your fingers as fast as you can and move your arm up and down the fingerboard. This passage is so loud and so quick that the actual notes are not of huge importance. Also, its more of painting a picture. You do not play a harmonic role here, the basses play an important part in creating a picture of a storm. I have several recordings of this and the only recording I've heard where you hear all the notes is Vienna.

Good Luck,
Nick

[Michael DiFebbo]

You do not play a harmonic role here, the basses play an important part in creating a picture of a storm.

It's an interesting effect. I'm looking at the score and there are passages (for example, at measure 21) where the basses have sixteenth note figures (F G Ab Bb) while the celli have sixteenth note quintuplets (F G Ab Bb C). These are not the specific passages that Ken was referring to, but nevertheless, it does seem pretty clear that Beethoven did not intend for these sections to sound perfectly clean, and indeed, on the two recordings that I have, they don't.

[Ken Smith]

Some 5s in Germany from my friend Sven-Henrik Gawron (http://www.vektor-bass.de/cybshop.htm). The first Bass, a Rubner is very similar to Anselm's Bass.

Like Anselm's?; http://www.vektor-bass.de/rubner1957.htm

http://www.vektor-bass.de/zimages/rubner5sfront.jpghttp://www.vektor-bass.de/zimages/rubner5sback.jpghttp://www.vektor-bass.de/zimages/rubner5shead.jpg


and this beauty as well; http://www.vektor-bass.de/bohem_5s.htm

http://www.vektor-bass.de/zimages/bohemian_5s-front.jpghttp://www.vektor-bass.de/zimages/bohemian_5s-back.jpghttp://www.vektor-bass.de/zimages/bohemian_5s-head.jpg

[Jeff Moote]

How's the storm going Ken? Have you decided whether you'll do it on the 5 string or the ext? Nobody in my section had an extension so we just played up the octave (or faked notes altogether in the most "stormy" bits, with the grace of our conductor - a former cellist). I really didn't enjoy that and I don't think it sounded as good as it could if we were at least faking our way through it in the correct register. I like the instruction we were given though: "At home, practice playing all the notes accurately. When you come here, just worry about playing in time and at the correct dynamic." At least people acknowledge that some of that movement is unplayable.

I've got my Spiro low C here so I'll let you know how that performs in a couple weeks (per the low B thread in the strings section).

[Ken Smith]

How's the storm going Ken? Have you decided whether you'll do it on the 5 string or the ext? Nobody in my section had an extension so we just played up the octave (or faked notes altogether in the most "stormy" bits, with the grace of our conductor - a former cellist). I really didn't enjoy that and I don't think it sounded as good as it could if we were at least faking our way through it in the correct register. I like the instruction we were given though: "At home, practice playing all the notes accurately. When you come here, just worry about playing in time and at the correct dynamic." At least people acknowledge that some of that movement is unplayable.

I've got my Spiro low C here so I'll let you know how that performs in a couple weeks (per the low B thread in the strings section).

I have my 5er at home tuned to Low C, not B and that makes a difference in two ways. One, the tension is better and two, saves me a shift here and there. In my office I am using an Ext. and getting better everyday. I spoke with a friend in the Philly orch and he showed it to me slow an octave up on a regular 4. It is obvious to me that you must learn the parts in both octaves and at a slow tempo or you will never be able to play it well. He mentioned that some of the players can play every note accurately on the Ext while some, not as accurate.

The 4string speaks better on the Low C than does the thicker B/C string on a 5er. Also, with so much to play on the regular 4 strings, I just might spend my time improving me fast Ext run skills and do it on the 4/Ext Bass and skip the 5er until I get something that a 4 just can't do at all.

A little faking at those speeds seems to be quite normal. I asked another Orch player to show me how he plays a part in the 5th that starts on the a-f, e-f-e-d-C/low and when he did it, he 'ghosted' the 'D' note. When I did it two years ago, I stretched my best and was at worst a little sharp on the D/ext. The Bass I used was big, 42 1/2" string length and that was another hurdle as well.

I guess if the major Orch's. in USA play mainly 4s w/ext and play all the works, it's good enough for me. I will however continue to try playing it on both the 4 and 5 string Bass. One day I even re-tuned two of my Basses in 5ths and that barely lasted till lunch time..lol

[Ken Smith]

As of yesterday, I no longer have my 5-string as I just sold it. I posted this on the 5-string thread (http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?p=6330#post6330) as well about selling the Bass.

I have been working on the Storm passage using any of 4 Basses with an Extension. The Gilkes, Martini, Bisiach and a Lott I had here for awhile while the Gilkes was out on loan. One thing for sure is that you must learn the part slowly and an octave up as well to better understand the notes. Hearing them played accurately helps the concept in your mind when playing them on the extension which can be very difficult to play accurately.

I was at the Kimmel one day and talking Bass with Duane Rosengard when he played on a regular 4-string the parts in the Storm but at a slow speed as we discussed the notes. He mentioned that you have to be able to play it slowly or you wont be able to play it at all. He was so right as the first thing I did was slow it down and play it in both octaves on both the 5er and the Ext. Basses.

Now that I am putting some time in with the Ext. and know which Bass I am going to play from now on, it is starting to come together. Rehearsals start in about a month. We only have 4 rehearsals within 10 days (3 hours each) so I have to work on things here way in advance to be prepared.

At this writing I am planning on using my Martini (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/MartiniBass/martini_bass_2.htm) for this concert. The Gilkes might be sold by then so I am not even thinking of playing it now. Both my Hart Bass and the Mystery Bass are at least two months or more from their restorations being completed. Also, I am not even sure which Bow I will use. Since my Bass sounds good with several of my Bows I will choose the Bow that feels better in my hands rather than the one that sounds better on the Bass. Comfort and fatigue are more of a concern to me than an extra ounce of volume or depth. The Martini has plenty of tone and volume so getting 90% of the Bass with comfort is better than 100% with pain!:eek:

Thanks for listening. Comments are always welcomed as well as further discussion..;)

[Ken Smith]

I did the Storm last month using the Gilkes (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/GilkesBass/GilkesBass.htm). The shorter string length and slightly brighter audible sound made it my choice. It went just fine. The practice as well as the tips from everyone were very helpful. Thanks to all that replied..