The 5-String Double Bass

[Ken Smith]

Hi guys, I am starting this to strike up some discussions about the Low B 5er in place of using a C-Ext. I did discuss this here and there as well as making quite a few Threads on TB. Now that we are here and I have gone thru every type of 'Low' including a 5er, it's time I get the ball rolling once again. To re-cap a few old posts I will quote them below to get the fire lit..

A few years ago I started looking into getting a 5-string. After trying one out I opted for having a Bass I had converted into a 5er. The first Bass I thought of converting didn't have enough room in the peg box to comfortable fit the 5th gear so we put a fingered extension (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/MorelliBass/MorelliBass.htm) on it instead. The next Bass was bigger but we still had to take some wood out just under the Scroll. This was not a pedigree of great value but did have a huge sound. Arnold turned it into a great 5-string Bass (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Mystery2/Hungarian.htm) while doing a needed restoration. I played it for a few concerts and several rehearsals but after getting my next Bass done with a chromatic extension (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/MartiniBass/martini_bass_2.htm) which can be fingered as well, I found this to be the best for me in most situations.

I found the 5th string in my way when not in use. Also, playing it was not as easy as I thought. The only music I found the 5er to be better to use than an Ext. was the Brandenburg Concertos where the low notes change faster than one could change the stops. I think with practice, one could pull it off. With the Beethoven's 5th, it can be fingered but how in-tune are you? Is intonation that important that low down and at that tempo?

Some players have a 5er at home for those special occasions when it would be best to use one. The majority of the players in USA just fight it out with whatever extension they have on their Bass. I am in the 'fight it out' stage as I have since put my 5er up for sale..I am bringing the 5er back home for the summer to shed on Beethoven's 6th Storm section. I'll give the 5er another try out of necessity.
Now I have to re-think this 'one-Bass-does-all' thing.. yikes..:confused:

[David Powell]

Bach's Brandenburgs and really all of the Beethoven Symphonies have long been among my favorites. If I can find a good way to convert my Dad's old Deutschte-Grammophon recordings to digital, I'll be able to enjoy them more often.

But about the Brandenburgs and the low notes;-

Do you think Bach's original composition referenced notes this low or is this something that is more likely a modern interpretation? There have been some different ideas about whether there were Baroque era instruments that actually could play those low notes. G violones certainly existed (similar to the Pollmann). Some researchers feel that there was an instrument that went even lower, to the D that we now have only with instruments with the C extension or BB string and there are a few drawings of really large instruments but almost nothing that still exists qualifies as a genuine Baroque instrument that might have this range.

I was just wondering. I'm a real low note freak myself so I like everything with the lower range.

[Paul Warburton]

Say fiver and here I am. Being a jazz player and not using the bow much, I don't have to expose myself to the horrors of having to bow the E with another string in the way ( the B ) That could get a bit edgy.
Did I tell you Kenny, that I saw Edgar Myer playing a fiver ( big! ) on TV with a small orchestra? He seemed very comfortable.
David, i've never heard of the low D you speak of.

[Ken Smith]

I think Set-up is a major factor in Bowing a 5-string Bass. It needs the right Bridge Arch and spacing between strings as well as a Sting that works best on that particular Bass.

Now that I am committed to doing the 5er thing again I will have to find what strings work best for the Bass I have. The 3 lower Permanents and 2 upper Flexocor were not as good as 4 Flexs and a Perm 'B'. The B is way too heavy for that set on my Bass and all the strings seem tight even though Arnold adjusted the Post yesterday. I think a slightly lighter tensioned set might work better for me.

[David Powell]

Sure you know that D, Paul, it's on the B string at the top of 1/2 position or 3 half steps up from the nut. I know I referenced it kind of oddly referring to the extension, but it would be the second capo past the nut.

I'm thinking the Brandenburgs are going to work better on a 5 string because that has to be accurate and fast, and I know what Ken is talking about with string access. I found this rare portrait of Bach and I think he did it on a different instrument than the one currently used in the Orchestra:
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l175/GobBass/663862589_l.jpg


I've tried the little bit of one of the Brandenburgs that I can remember by ear and down low, it's a work-out and it is tough to dig in on the E without skittering on the B or A also. I did put more space between the strings than the bass came with, but if I had it to do over again, I think there is a better spacing strategy than the one I used. I put them on one inch centers, but I should have put one inch between them. This is more difficult to work out at the bridge, but it helps with access to the E. String height is another part of the issue. The B has to be higher than the other strings, so you actually lose a little of the fingerboard arch at the bridge. So having some extra string space would help with that, but I'm thinking a slightly assymetric arch on the fingerboard with a tighter radius on the B side of the board might help also. Some 5-ers have a tighter radius than others, but that is a trade-off also, because you don't want the B string to contribute less tension to the bridge. If it is radiused too tight, the string might not be very strong. I'm thinking the optimum 5 string set up is much harder to get to than the optimum 4 string. Spacing, height and arch all have to be spot on. That said, I think I got mine playing pretty well all things considered. It looks real similar to the set-up on Anselm's bass. The arch looks similar as well. His doesn't seem to have a real tight radius. I'll get a photo of my bridge and post it. It's no work of art, but it works.

[Ken Smith]

For me, the Jury is still out on the Tension of this Low 'B' String. One BIG disadvantage most of us have is that in my case mainly, I have played 100s of 4 string Basses in my 40 or so years BUT have only played about 5 (that I can recall) 5-String Basses. I can actually name them but I may have touched one or two more in that time.

With so little experience on playing the 5-String, choosing the right strings for Bowing that Bass for what you need to play is much harder to do than on a 4-string that for me, I am way way more familiar with.

My 5er feels a little tight right now even after a Soundpost adjustment that did help but not enough. Maybe I have the wrong Strings on it? The G and D are tuned at 2 octaves and a third and less on the Lower strings with the Pecanic TP. Maybe I need to let the Cable up a bit till the G and D are tuned to a 4th. These are some of the mysteries of setting up the occasional 5er as compared to the standard 4-string.

In the BG field, I am one of the top people in the business of Multi-strings but on the DB 5, I am just getting started in comparison.

[David Powell]

Not to get off topic but one of your Black Tiger 5-ers had one of the best set-ups I have ever played. Amazing frets. I don't think Bach had a choice of one of those or certainly he would have used that instead.

Seriously, I have seen and played only three 5-string double basses. One of the biggest hurdles to playing one is finding one in the first place. In the USA, there aren't too many choices. The first one I saw, I was just too new to DB to have a clue about the bowing part of it. It was 3/4 size, same maker as my current instrument. The second one was a Christopher hybrid 7/8 size that had a very full sound and good string access. I think the string length on that one was something 42ish. If I remember, the BB was a bit sloppy or loose feeling compared to mine. It had a bit more arch in the FB than my current 5-string which sounds very similar to the Christopher, but the B is tighter, really good at stopped C and D. On the Christopher the E was easier to dig in on, so there is this trade off with the arching.

I was looking very closely at the arch of my fingerboard today and there is a slightly different radius on the bass side of the FB. It could just be a variation in the board that really was not dressed too much from the shop, or it could have been deliberate on the part of the maker. In any case, that is probably helping it out a bit in terms of string height and access.

So far I have only used the Helicore Orchs that came on mine. Experimenting with different B strings can get expensive. The current string works OK but I know something better is probably out there. I am noticing some corrosion on the B and E strings after 2 years so maybe it is time to try something new.

[Ken Smith]

In the late 70s when I used to buy, fix and sell Basses in my spare time as my hobby I ran across a modern German 5 in a NY Pawn Shop which I bought on the spot with my credit card. I took it home and after fixing a Top crack (top off) and re-varnishing the Top only with a nice Oil Varnish I mixed I converted the Bass back to a 4-string. I planed down the overhang on the fingerboard, took off the 3/2 plate gears, plugged and re-drilled for 2/2 plates, re-cut the bridge top and bingo, I had a nice 4-string which sold soon after it was done. This was a Juzek/Wilferish type Bass very similar to the Hofner 5 I am selling at the moment.

In my 20 years of playing, other than in Books or on TV (Boston Symphony) I had never seen anyone play a 5-string DB!

Several years ago I saw the 2nd one which was a Bob G/Bulgarian Bass. Must have been the older models with the shiny Lacquer finish and low neck stand model. I played only a few notes on it and that was it.

The 3rd was a Pollmann belonging to the former Principal of the Met. He had the B tuned to a C. For most things this made sense but for octaves like in the Brandenbergs, it needed to be in 4ths down to B for the fingering. This is the Bass I borrowed to see if the 5 was for me at all. I decided I did need one but opted to convert one of my extra Basses instead of buying that one. My Morelli was on the bench at Arnolds and the Peg Box was an inch shorter than the Pollmann so we scrapped the conversion on that Bass and put a fingered Extension on it instead. I used that Bass for a few concerts and then sold the Bass. The new owner played mainly Jazz and took off the Extension.

The 4th one was my current Hungarian Bass (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Mystery2/Hungarian.htm) that WAS a conversion from a 4-string. This had a slightly longer Peg Box plus room at the top to Chisel away some more wood to fit the new set of 5 Tuners (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Mystery2/5str_imgs/m2_pf.JPG). This is a large bodied Bass with a longer lower bout and FFs placed higher on the Body allowing for a 41 1/4" String Length while the Belly Length is over 45". A normal 3/4 would be closer to 43" body length so this modified 7/8ths has some extra 'body' to it which helps out that added 5th string volume wise. Also, the Top has a huge arch making it a strong Top well able to handle a 5th string. Actually, Arnold had mentioned that this Top is so strong, it doesn't even need a Bass Bar. He put one in anyway just in case!

The 5th one that comes to mind in this countdown is the Hofner 5 (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/5String/5String.htm) that I am listing in behalf of Paul Biase Violins, NY. This is a nice Bass for the money and only played it a short time when I took the Pics a few months ago. If I were in the market for one now, I would seriously consider this Bass. It has more normal 3/4 dimensions in Body and String length. For someone needing a 5er, this would be a good buy short of buying an upper end more expensive Bass for regular professional Orchestra use.

For Strings, I can only comment on my Hungarian Bass and the Pollmann which I used in Concert as well. The Pollmann had 4 Flexocors and a Jaegar medium B-string. My Bass had Flex. Tops and Perm. bottoms (A,E,B). Currently I have 4 Flex's and a Perm. 'B'. I am considering trying out a complete set of Flat-ChromeSteels which seems to be lighter tensioned than the Flex's but that is judging it from another 4-string (w/C-Ext) English Bass I played the other day.

Bridge Arching: What I do usually is slide a pencil or ruler between 3 strings laying it flat on the top of the Bridge surface and look at the height off the the line of the middle string which should measure about 1/4". I do this 2x on a 4-string and 3x on the 5 to check bow clearance on all the inner strings.

Here are some pics I took for a Bow listing I had a few years ago using my 5-string. These pics though not intended to show Bridge arch still gives an idea of what I have. Last week I tweaked the arch slightly once again lowering the B (which raises the E-arch) and lowering both the G and D (which raised the A and kept the relation from the D to the G). I will not be a good judge of my work until I get into rehearsal with the Bass playing the Beeth. 6th which is on my stand for the Summer to work on.

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Bows/Alsatian/images/f_grip.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Bows/Alsatian/images/I_grip.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Bows/Alsatian/images/g_grip.jpg

[Paul Warburton]

Sure you know that D, Paul, it's on the B string at the top of 1/2 position or 3 half steps up from the nut. I know I referenced it kind of oddly referring to the extension, but it would be the second capo past the nut.


Of course I know that D David, I'd just never heard of tuning down to it.
My bad, I read your post wrong.

[Paul Warburton]

My Bohmann has the fingerboard layed over the B side of the neck.....to accomodate a thinner neck.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Ken, my RX for your tight-feeling fiver: BelCantos G thru E, B string of your choice.

[Paul Warburton]

Ken, my RX for your tight-feeling fiver: BelCantos G thru E, B string of your choice.

My bass sounds great with a Thomastik Orchestra B
I'm surprised Kenny hasn't tried the BelCantos....

[Ken Smith]

I did think of the Bel's but the main problem is the 'B'. Which 'B' will match which set and be able to Bow it equally response wise?

Tension wise and Bowability I like the Bel's but with that soft 'E', I will need an even softer 'B' or the 'E' will be even mushier I think.

[David Powell]

Several years ago I saw the 2nd one which was a Bob G/Bulgarian Bass. Must have been the older models with the shiny Lacquer finish and low neck stand model. I played only a few notes on it and that was it.
The first one I saw was one of those. Not sure how early it was compared to the one you saw. I think it was built the same year I saw it, 2002. I knew very little at the time, but the fellow who owned it had a good bit of experience, played it in a community orchestra and gave it good reports. Looking at their new web page, the bass appears to have a higher projection than mine even and the nitro is now spirit varnish, purfling similar to the Hofner / Wilfer detail also. And now there are two distinct gamba models.


The 3rd was a Pollmann belonging to the former Principal of the Met. He had the B tuned to a C. For most things this made sense but for octaves like in the Brandenbergs, it needed to be in 4ths down to B for the fingering. This is the Bass I borrowed to see if the 5 was for me at all. I decided I did need one but opted to convert one of my extra Basses instead of buying that one. My Morelli was on the bench at Arnolds and the Peg Box was an inch shorter than the Pollmann so we scrapped the conversion on that Bass and put a fingered Extension on it instead. I used that Bass for a few concerts and then sold the Bass. The new owner played mainly Jazz and took off the Extension. George Hofer suggested that I put a partial false nut on my bass under the B to raise it to a C. The B string used to behave very oddly when I was trying to tune to the 5th of the E. The partial false nut would not have changed the tension or note location but it would have shifted the harmonics and might have helped because the problem seemed to be resonance related. I thought it had a wolf, but this problem (which was here today and not tomorrow) completely vanished as the bass opened more.

The 5th one that comes to mind in this countdown is the Hofner 5 (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/5String/5String.htm) that I am listing in behalf of Paul Biase Violins, NY. This is a nice Bass for the money and only played it a short time when I took the Pics a few months ago. If I were in the market for one now, I would seriously consider this Bass. It has more normal 3/4 dimensions in Body and String length. For someone needing a 5er, this would be a good buy short of buying an upper end more expensive Bass for regular professional Orchestra use. That is a very nice looking bass at that price. Tempted to visit PA.

Bridge Arching: What I do usually is slide a pencil or ruler between 3 strings laying it flat on the top of the Bridge surface and look at the height off the the line of the middle string which should measure about 1/4". I do this 2x on a 4-string and 3x on the 5 to check bow clearance on all the inner strings.

Here are some pics I took for a Bow listing I had a few years ago using my 5-string. These pics though not intended to show Bridge arch still gives an idea of what I have. Last week I tweaked the arch slightly once again lowering the B (which raises the E-arch) and lowering both the G and D (which raised the A and kept the relation from the D to the G). I will not be a good judge of my work until I get into rehearsal with the Bass playing the Beeth. 6th which is on my stand for the Summer to work on.
My clearance is definitely less by a bit than the .25 inch guide. And at the FB, if I hold my bow like in your photo, the clearance is dangerously close. I can play it all the way up into thumb position across all five strings, but more clearance would be better. Does your arching at the finger board match the arching at the bridge closely? How much could I increase the arch at the bridge without changing it at the fingerboard as well?

[Ken Smith]

My clearance is definitely less by a bit than the .25 inch guide. And at the FB, if I hold my bow like in your photo, the clearance is dangerously close. I can play it all the way up into thumb position across all five strings, but more clearance would be better. Does your arching at the finger board match the arching at the bridge closely? How much could I increase the arch at the bridge without changing it at the fingerboard as well?

Ok, I just measured it rather than only eyeballing it. The clearance at both the Bridge and FB inside each 3-strings is actually only 4mm or so and not 1/4". The 1/4" is my regular clearance on a 4-string or about 5-6mm.

When you play a 5er, you have to keep the Bow steady so as not to bump the neighboring Strings. Also, make sure your 'draw' the string rather than press down with the Bow. Finally, when playing up the neck into thumb position, the Bow should also move down towards the Bridge as you get closer to the end of the FB for a cleaner sound.

So, I am using 4mm clearance with about 1" spacing (25mm +/-) at the end of the FB. The Nut is spaced 7/16-15/32 string to string and the spacing at the end of the FB (high C on the G) is about 23mm (+/-).

I would also like to point out that for about 15 years I played a 7/8ths high shouldered 18th century Italian Bass with about a 23.5mm Bridge Spacing so I am not new to tight spaced Strings or tight Bowing. Having a beautiful Sartory all that time didn't hurt either..lol

[Ken Smith]

Some 5s in Germany from my friend Sven-Henrik Gawron (http://www.vektor-bass.de/cybshop.htm). The first Bass, a Rubner is very similar to Anselm's Bass.

Like Anselm's?; http://www.vektor-bass.de/rubner1957.htm

http://www.vektor-bass.de/zimages/rubner5sfront.jpghttp://www.vektor-bass.de/zimages/rubner5sback.jpghttp://www.vektor-bass.de/zimages/rubner5shead.jpg


and this beauty as well; http://www.vektor-bass.de/bohem_5s.htm

http://www.vektor-bass.de/zimages/bohemian_5s-front.jpghttp://www.vektor-bass.de/zimages/bohemian_5s-back.jpghttp://www.vektor-bass.de/zimages/bohemian_5s-head.jpg

[David Powell]

I must get a digital camera. But these come with shutter lag and timing is everything to me. So I'm still digital image challenged as one might say. I promise to have one by this week-end so we can compare bridge set-ups. As far as bowing goes, it is pretty much like you describe because as little clearance as I have there is no other way. Up in thumb land I bow about 2/3 down from the FB to the bridge. On the G, D, and A it is better, but E and B are really tight. I'm getting to know some cool double stops up there though. :D

From what I can tell (mostly from photos) there are two schools of thought on the part of the makers of 5-ers, at least with the arch of the fingerboard. One borders on being violone-ish with a flatter arch and the other one has a really high round arch. Mine is the first kind. That Chris was the 2nd. My Kremona model is now called a Rubner (I suppose after the famed Markneukirchen Josef Rubner) to distinguish it from a new model recently introduced.

A fellow over on TB just posted about an actual 5-string Rubner (don't know if that is Josef or Johannes) he got to check out for few strokes. I told him to come over here. He didn't have photos though. That Bohemian flatback is sweet! :o Is Paul W. around or is he, um, busy? ;)

[Paul Warburton]

:o Is Paul W. around or is he, um, busy? ;)
Im right here.

[David Powell]

This one is a real beauty and I thought since we are obsessing over the devilsome issue of bowing a five string (pizz just seems pretty normal), I thought we should consider the difficulties in getting a good arco set-up on this one. (http://www.geba-online.de/marktplatzbilder.php4?bildquelle=platz&bildquelle_id=0&id=1709)

http://www.geba-online.de/auto_image_db.php?bildquelle=platz&bildquelle_id=0&bild_id=3923&x=396&y=572

[Ken Smith]

This one is a real beauty and I thought since we are obsessing over the devilsome issue of bowing a five string (pizz just seems pretty normal), I thought we should consider the difficulties in getting a good arco set-up on this one. (http://www.geba-online.de/marktplatzbilder.php4?bildquelle=platz&bildquelle_id=0&id=1709)

http://www.geba-online.de/auto_image_db.php?bildquelle=platz&bildquelle_id=0&bild_id=3923&x=396&y=572






Looks like a '70s Pollmann but in a 6! The one 5er I borrowed was a big Gamba Busetto with a 41 1/4' String Length and fully decorated with Carvings but without the Rosette in the Top. This Bass must be for either a Jazz player or a soloist. I would love to see someone play that next to me in an Orchestra Rehearsal. The Double Stops will tell me when he's having trouble...lol

[David Powell]

I know this verges on insanity, but a French luthier has made one with 7, and the player does use a bow. His primary work is improvisational jazz. I have one of his older recordings using a 5-string, but this is the instrument he's playing now:
http://www.neversdjazz.com/local/cache-vignettes/L173xH230/Paul_RogersDSCN1101-8a336.jpg

and here is a photo of the outline (different instrument, same maker, Antoine Leducq) compared to a gamba:
http://allbasse.com/interface/allbasse/repupload/2contrebasse_1.jpg

It reminds me of Savart a bit. At the risk of this becoming the quest for "one that goes to eleven" I'll stop with the lucky number. It's a bit over the top, but you have to wonder if one plays all double stops on these things with so many strings.

[Ken Smith]

Cool stuff. When they start writing for the 7 string in Orchestra, that's the day I retire for good..lol

[David Powell]

Cool stuff. When they start writing for the 7 string in Orchestra, that's the day I retire for good..lolDoubtful that will happen in our lifetimes, so play it to the end of the piece!

But going back to the Bach Brandenburgs: I think there are some with only a continuo score, and I'm guessing that those or even the ones with the DB score might have been scored for G violones with 5 or 6 strings. It's hard to tell because the coninuo was sometimes done on a harpsichord or whatever was available. There is of course still the question of which octave was intended, but I haven't found much on that. And that is not as significant an issue as that those parts were probably scored for an instrument that through crossings could play the octave passages more easily. Apparently violones could be tuned several ways, but all fourths wouldn't be too different from the more standard 3 fourths, a major third, and then two fourths. Just a crazy theory. What is a good source for scores of the Bach pieces? I'd love to give those a look. [EDIT: Never mind, I found them. Public domain. Love the Internet!]

[David Powell]

OK, I finally have satisfied myself on this question, while I'm sure it will remain one of scholarly debate for some. After all, one must write a thesis on something to get a PhD! Malcolm Boyd's book (http://books.google.com/books?id=gqZav_nOtQEC&pg=PA32&lpg=PA32&dq=violone+grosso&source=web&ots=2XoTzNU8mF&sig=ZE0AJBBQYVgrzicTKTAjijbIJsU#PPA32,M1) on the Brandenburg concertos suggests that a violone grosso was required, probably one with only 4 (?) strings that had the lowest string tuned to C', but that different instruments were used depending on which Concerto it was. In fact 3 different instruments are referenced. The scores I was able to find online (William Rust) suggest that there were violone grosso, violone, violone de ripieno (that distinction evades me as it seems to be contextual). Certainly these distinctions had some specific meaning in Bach's day. Boyd's book is copyrighted material, but if the link works it takes you to the specific page that talks about this. He also clears up the question of which octave the score refers to. But in the end the part is more important than which instrument we play it on. We don't have 3 to choose from today unless we collect rare and expensive reproductions. In fact what can't be done on either a 5 string or a 4 with C extension can likely be played on a cello.

Planyavsky and Borgir (http://www.earlybass.com/borgin.htm) would seem to support that the instruments in use in Germany in Bach's time were indeed tuned in 4ths across all strings like our modern 5 string bass, but were tuned to different notes. An instrument like that 6 string Pöllmann would probably cover all of the Brandernburgs with ease, (except for the pesky unintended double stops). A 5-er would be the next best thing but require more shifting. A C extension? Bach would think that was a curious thing, I think, but it might work in a pinch for one of the Concertos specifying the violone grosso.

I know this is a somewhat cross thread response, but the usefulness of a 5 string instrument is certainly part of this. If I had to choose one and only one Double Bass instrument to play, maintain, and express myself on, it would be a 5 string one tuned in 4ths. But that little Pöllmann violone would be a nice second fiddle. And it appears that tuning in 4ths across all strings might be quite acceptable from a historical perspective of German tradition. A nice little 6 string acoustic bass guitar for some of the Brandenburgs!

[Jeff Tranauskas]

245

"Several years ago I saw the 2nd one which was a Bob G/Bulgarian Bass. Must have been the older models with the shiny Lacquer finish and low neck stand model. I played only a few notes on it and that was it"

[Ken Smith]

245

"Several years ago I saw the 2nd one which was a Bob G/Bulgarian Bass. Must have been the older models with the shiny Lacquer finish and low neck stand model. I played only a few notes on it and that was it"

That's 'THAT' Bass? Sry, don't remember it much at all. I was packing my Amp up while Don was setting up to sub for me at a rehearsal. I was in and out in 2 minutes..

[Anselm Hauke]

I know this verges on insanity, but a French luthier has made one with 7,

ok, i´m the winner: 38 strings!
http://www.bazantar.com/instrument.html

[David Powell]

ok, i´m the winner: 38 strings!
http://www.bazantar.com/instrument.html I thought about mentioning that since Mark Deutsch has modified a 5 string DB. It's a really interesting instrument. I've had his CD for over a year. "Fool" is an interesting meditational composition that is conceptually related to the life cycle. Some moments are a bit arresting, perhaps disturbing. I enjoy listening to it in the odd moment it and there is some good double bass playing on there. In the USA, it would probably be classified as "New Age" music. The Bazantar sounds very unusual. It's like a huge viola d'amore. One of the most interesting things on his site is his chart of the harmonic series vs. equal temperament. It's one of the best graphical depictions of pure harmonic relations I've ever seen.

If you haven't heard the whole composition, Anselm, it might be worth a listen, or at least I was quite pleased with the CD.

[Jeff Tranauskas]

ok, i´m the winner: 38 strings!
http://www.bazantar.com/instrument.html

Anselm, I agree.
You are the winner!

[Jeff Tranauskas]

Has anyone ever played a 5 with a high C?
I might restring the mighty funf with a high C in lieu of a low B.
I'll never leave first position again!;)
My slab 5 is currently strung this way and I really like it.

[David Powell]

Has anyone ever played a 5 with a high C?
I might restring the mighty funf with a high C in lieu of a low B.
I'll never leave first position again!;)
My slab 5 is currently strung this way and I really like it.Once upon a time, the Kay bass company made a 5 string model that was strung with a high C. It was after a famous player Greig Stewart "Chubby" Jackson popularized that tuning and it was known as the "Chubby Jackson" model. They are fairly rare, but turn up now and again. It is a possibility to string it that way for sure, but who wants to be stuck in first postition? I'd rather play at the heel any day. Just my preferences, obviously it worked well enough for Chubby the other way.

[David Powell]

245

"Several years ago I saw the 2nd one which was a Bob G/Bulgarian Bass. Must have been the older models with the shiny Lacquer finish and low neck stand model. I played only a few notes on it and that was it"

Here's the big sister of "that bass" Just a few close ups of this bridge I carved about 2 years ago.
http://mail.fastermac.net/users/dhpowell@fastermac.net/Pictures/Kremona%20Bridge/Bridge5.jpg


http://mail.fastermac.net/users/dhpowell@fastermac.net/Pictures/Kremona%20Bridge/Bridge3a.jpg


http://mail.fastermac.net/users/dhpowell@fastermac.net/Pictures/Kremona%20Bridge/Bridge2.jpg


http://mail.fastermac.net/users/dhpowell@fastermac.net/Pictures/Kremona%20Bridge/Bridge1.jpg


http://mail.fastermac.net/users/dhpowell@fastermac.net/Pictures/Kremona%20Bridge/Bridge4.jpg

[David Powell]

OK, so here's what she looks like uncropped:
http://mail.fastermac.net/users/dhpowell@fastermac.net/Pictures/Kremona%20Bridge/Krmona445.jpg

[Ken Smith]

Not a speck of Rosin on the strings or bridge! How do you keep it so clean?

[David Powell]

Not a speck of Rosin on the strings or bridge! How do you keep it so clean?You know that just doesn't happen to me. I've posted about this problem several times. I just never get any rosin anywhere but on the strings. And then it's a powder that just wipes off. I actually wipe it off pretty frequently when I'm practicing. But I'm finding with the black hair I need far less rosin. And it is pretty hot so I'm using the Hard Oak for the first time. It works great with the black hair.

I did scrape the bridge clean with a blade about a week ago, but it really didn't have much rosin on it, just some surface dirt from going in and out of the case. That's the first bridge I carved. Hopefully the last too. I had blisters every where I had skin.

[Ken Smith]

You know that just doesn't happen to me. I've posted about this problem several times. I just never get any rosin anywhere but on the strings. And then it's a powder that just wipes off. I actually wipe it off pretty frequently when I'm practicing. But I'm finding with the black hair I need far less rosin. And it is pretty hot so I'm using the Hard Oak for the first time. It works great with the black hair.

I did scrape the bridge clean with a blade about a week ago, but it really didn't have much rosin on it, just some surface dirt from going in and out of the case. That's the first bridge I carved. Hopefully the last too. I had blisters every where I had skin.

You carved and fit that Bridge? Good job, it looks great. How is the radius on that Bridge? My 4-string Basses average about 1/2" putting a ruler under the outer strings and measuring the distance to the top of the bridge in the center. The 5er I have is 3/4" for 5 strings and the 4-string measurement (without the B) is just under 1/2", slightly shallower.

[David Powell]

I had matched the radius of the fingerboard at 72mm, I think or somewhere close to that. I haven't measured the radius of the bridge. I based it on the original bridge which was fine height wise, the spacing was just too close for arco. Ideally, I think a slightly tighter radius would be better on the fingerboard. But before I do that, I could reset the strings just a little wider. G, D, and A are all fine, E is a little tight. Or I could go for one inch between instead of 1 inch on center. I'll try that first with a different spacing on the original bridge. It was a lot lighter maple, but it still sounded good. If I put adjusters in it, I could trim the top and try the different spacing.

Thanks for the compliment on the bridge. The photos are close enough to show the small mistakes. I totally abstained from any sandpaper on that one. I just wanted to see if I could do it. I used two flexcut knives and a little modeling plane. The planer really brought out the rays in the maple. Scraping it to clean it was a tip I got from you somewhere along the way.

[Ken Smith]

David, regardless of the Fingerboard arch, you need a minimum amount or Bridge arch to Bow. Drawing a line on top of the bridge under the strings, measure the height every other string from that line to the bottom of the string in the middle. Looking with your eye it should be about 1/4" but with a 5-string you may have trouble getting much more than 3/16". A 5er is usually a tighter Bowing Bass from what I have experienced so good Bow technique is needed.

I know that having a good Fingerboard arch to nearly match your bridge is preferred but it would be working backwards to shape the bridge to match the FB. Yes, the string heights may not be optimum but reducing the bridge arch impedes clean bowing.

Since the String heights normally increase from the G to the E (or B) strings, it is best to work on the Bowing arch first if you intend to Bow. Fixing or replacing your fingerboard might be another option as well so as not to take it out on the bridge.

[David Powell]

If I decide to reduce the radius of the board (increase the arch) there is quite a bit of thickness to work with. Essentially, I'd just be taking it off at the edges a little to match a radius guide.

It just seems that right now I have more space than I really need with G and D so I could rotate the G & D closer to the edge, bring the A to just slightly favoring the treble side of the board and that will probably do it. It's a tricky set up. I might have 3/16, but probably not on the bass side because the string heights go from 6m to 10mm, so right there I'm losing 4mm already. One thing that makes me hesitant to change anything is that the more I practice and the more the bass opens up, the easier the E string starts, so it is tempting to just leave it be and concetrate on technique. It does work, I just have to be particular with certain notes starting. Bow tension, bow speed, where the bow hits the string between the FB and bridge;- all that seems very important. I probably will not change much on this bass until I have a spare.

[Ken Smith]

String spacing should be about 1" to 1 1/16" string-to-string, center-to-center and not in between the strings. This way, the E and A will feel closer than the G and D. Also, is the B is slightly further from the E, this will make the Bass play easier with the Bow as a 4-stringer and have the B reachable for those few moments it is actually needed in orchestral works.

Right now, I am practicing regular 4-string music on my 5er just to get use to playing it G-to-E and I don't think about the B-string being there. On my Bass however, everything just feels big including the body of the Bass. Although this neck was big to begin with if I had just left it as a 4-string, the Bass feels easy enough to play when I dabble with a few solo pieces up the G and D. Not a bad trade off I think.

[David Powell]

Those are some good ideas and guidelines for the bridge arch. The strings are at 1" on centers now currently, so there is a little room to open them a bit. I was looking at Jeff's 3/4 bass and comparing it to the outline of mine and while the two are similar, there are noticeable differences in both the upper and lower bout shape. I was thinking mine was just a slightly larger version of the 3/4, but these are different shapes in the subtleties.

If I'm correct, comparing mine to your five string, yours has a larger lower bout but narrower upper bout and waist. Otherwise I think they are fairly similar in size. It even looks like you might have the same bridge. I'll try to get a measure on the bridge radius so we can compare.

[Ken Smith]

Those are some good ideas and guidelines for the bridge arch. The strings are at 1" on centers now currently, so there is a little room to open them a bit. I was looking at Jeff's 3/4 bass and comparing it to the outline of mine and while the two are similar, there are noticeable differences in both the upper and lower bout shape. I was thinking mine was just a slightly larger version of the 3/4, but these are different shapes in the subtleties.

If I'm correct, comparing mine to your five string, yours has a larger lower bout but narrower upper bout and waist. Otherwise I think they are fairly similar in size. It even looks like you might have the same bridge. I'll try to get a measure on the bridge radius so we can compare.

My Bridge measures 167mm across the feet while my upper F-hole Eyes are 162mm. I think I mentioned all my Bridge arch and spacing specs earlier. The Top is highly arched and extremely strong. If you look at all the measurements of my Bass, maybe you will be able to estimate its cubic inch air space in comparison to your Bass IF you have any interest in doing that. All I know is that the sucker is HUGE..lol

[David Powell]

My Bridge measures 167mm across the feet while my upper F-hole Eyes are 162mm. I think I mentioned all my Bridge arch and spacing specs earlier. The Top is highly arched and extremely strong. If you look at all the measurements of my Bass, maybe you will be able to estimate its cubic inch air space in comparison to your Bass IF you have any interest in doing that. All I know is that the sucker is HUGE..lolMy bridge feet are right at 168 mm on the outsides. My f's are closer than that. I would guess the two basses are extremely close in cavity size. Just comparing the specs on yours to these.

Upper bout 21", C bout 15.75", lower 27.5", belly from saddle to overstand 45", rib depth 8 3/8" tapers to 7 1/8" after bend in upper bout. As best I can determine, the cavity resonance seems to be "C". The only dimension with much difference is the string length. I think that the 7/8 Christopher I tried out was very close to this size as well.

[Ken Smith]

My bridge feet are right at 168 mm on the outsides. My f's are closer than that. I would guess the two basses are extremely close in cavity size. Just comparing the specs on yours to these.

Upper bout 21", C bout 15.75", lower 27.5", belly from saddle to overstand 45", rib depth 8 3/8" tapers to 7 1/8" after bend in upper bout. As best I can determine, the cavity resonance seems to be "C". The only dimension with much difference is the string length. I think that the 7/8 Christopher I tried out was very close to this size as well.

Yes David, very similar indeed. With my Back 28-29" wide at the bottom it only fits the TKL 4/4 Bag. I doesn't even fit the Bobelock 7/8ths unless I stretch it over the Ribs but the Case will fall apart if continue doing that.

One thing we did not measure is how 'long' each Bout actually is and not just how wide and deep. Our Basses being similar sized do not have a similar string length. Why do you think that is?

[Jeff Tranauskas]

David,
That is a good looking instrument!
I am happy with mine especially since it has been touched by Ken himself! :D
I will post the dimensions of my bass for comparison.
Also, my bridge is adjustable.
All work performed on this bass has been by Harold Golden, Philadelphia.
I have recently added wooden tuning pegs for a more elegant look at the scroll.

[Ken Smith]

Last night after not using it since about December of 2005, I played my 5er in concert. I only had a couple of written notes (D) that were below E so I added a few here and there just to get some use out of it. We were playing in a huge Park with all the strings and woodwinds on the grass so I doubt anyone heard much of my low notes if any Bass directly at all. It was just two of us in the section for this last Pops concert series of 3 venues so some low note improv was not much of an issue.

I did on occasion have to 'fish around' to make sure I was on the right string and the A was in the center and a bit confusing. The G was fine and the E position not bad. It was mostly the A and also the D when moving from the lower strings that were slightly confusing. Still, it was nice to have a concert where I could test the waters for the Fall season with putting the 5er back in my personal inventory.

Anyone else have any confessions to make concerning fumbling with that extra string? Paul? Dave? ... Don't be shy now. I promise not to tell anyone if you so desire..lol:p

[David Powell]

Yes David, very similar indeed. With my Back 28-29" wide at the bottom it only fits the TKL 4/4 Bag. I doesn't even fit the Bobelock 7/8ths unless I stretch it over the Ribs but the Case will fall apart if continue doing that.

One thing we did not measure is how 'long' each Bout actually is and not just how wide and deep. Our Basses being similar sized do not have a similar string length. Why do you think that is? Bout height / proportion is definitely a part of it. I don't know if this is why. Why is such a complex question when so many things interact, but obviously string length is not one of those things that just exists independently. I suppose in design one could start with string length and then make some decisions around that or go the other way. It's hard to determine whether one isolated parameter is the cause or the effect. My guess is that looking backward at the two instruments that have very similar overall table length, the string length has to match up with the bridge position longitudinally and the heel point has to match the D neck. So once those are located and the projection angle is set, the string length is also. Isn't the bridge position usually at the crest of the arch of the table? So all of these things must be balanced. On the table of my bass there is 23 inches between the bridge and neck overstand and 21 inches below the bridge to the saddle. If the bridge position were up a bit, and the heel point still a D neck, then the string length would drop as well. So your bridge is probably closer to the center longitudinally than mine is. I think the relationship could be mathematically described. If one has the length from the bridge top to the D at the neck heel, then the mensur will be 1.5 x that distance.

There was a 4/4 5 string Romanian bass that I looked at the specifications of when I was shopping for a 5-string that had dimensions and mensur very close to my Kremona. It seems to be a common European shop design.

I'll make an admission about the 4-string / 5-string yin yang. The DB was my first 5 string. After playing a 4 string for two years I wanted to try the 5-er orchestra sized DB just to see what those were about dimension wise and in configuration. I figured switching sooner was better. I had played a few 5 string EBG's, but these never really fascinated me that much although I did like the idea. I used to tune my P down to C on the E string and so I had my own way to get low notes, but a 5 string EBG has more to offer than just notes below E. So here I was in my jazz and folk groups with 5 strings on the DB. And I was rewriting all of my parts now based on the new notes that were available as well as new positions. And inevitably this began affecting my playing on the 4-string EBG, because now I am "thinking" in a different mode. So in improv sequences I hit the wrong string more than once! Eventually switching back and forth from 4 string EBG to 5 string DB was just too frustrating. So I upgraded my EBG to two matched 5 stringers, one fretted and one fretless. Now my musical bass line thinking is the same whatever I'm playing. And I want one of those 7 string classical guitars, too. Just kidding, but everything needs a low B now.

In the end it would be best for me to reach the point where a bass is just a bass. But I'm just not there yet. So for now a bass is a 5-string bass. There was a point in my photographic career when a camera became a box with apertures and shutter speeds, nothing more. At that point my eye superseded the equipment at a fundamental level. The equipment became a proxy for the eye. Any camera would work. When basses become "boxes with low pitched strings" and my ear writes the same line regardless of which box, then I will understand bass lines as fundamentally as I do photographs. After a few more years on the 5 stringers I might start switching back to 4 or something else. I don't think in any case that I am headed for more than 6. For me the 5 string is showing me a lot of relationships that exist only in a couple of instances on a 4 string instrument. So in a way, it will inevitably change my approach to 4 string playing as well.

[David Powell]

David,
That is a good looking instrument!
I am happy with mine especially since it has been touched by Ken himself! :D
I will post the dimensions of my bass for comparison.
Also, my bridge is adjustable.
All work performed on this bass has been by Harold Golden, Philadelphia.
I have recently added wooden tuning pegs for a more elegant look at the scroll.


I was a little frustrated with the poor color rendition of the photos. My bass actually appears much darker and not nearly so red as in the photo, more like in the photo of yours. I just got this digital camera and sometimes the color is very surprising, even after tweaking the white balance. The pine floor of the room is similarly overly red, so I am thinking for this camera with these lights, finished wood tends toward red.

Film with outdoor lighting I'm thinking would probably give truer color. Still the photo shows the outline and design nicely. I saw one of the 3/4 ones like yours before I ordered mine. It was a 2002 model. It's a very pleasing and plain modern gamba similar to German shop basses.

[Don Carrigan]

5 & 6 string Basses:
Get a load of this 6 string 1650 "Violone" from Venice Click below: http://home.earthlink.net/~prescottviol/Photos/1650%20VioloneDaGambaVenice.jpg
And here's my 1820 Prescott Busetto with 5 string conversion, (new 5 str. neck, special support of thin Prescott belly, string angle lessened over bridge, etc. Click below:
At an angle: http://home.earthlink.net/~prescottviol/Photos/1820Prescott%20Angled.jpg
Full front view: http://home.earthlink.net/~prescottviol/Photos/1820Prescott%20FRONT.jpg
Formerly as 4 strings on a 3 string neck, 2002:
http://home.earthlink.net/~prescottviol/Photos/1820PRESCOTT4str3strNeckBeach.jpg

[Ken Smith]

Don, thanks for posting that Violone. I remember seeing that on line a few years ago but couldn't find it. My Mystery Bass (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/MysteryBass/name_that_bass.htm) is huge and internally built like a Violone or Gamba and this large Bass proves that they did make them bigger than the regular Viola d'Gamba/cello size.

http://home.earthlink.net/~prescottviol/Photos/1650%20VioloneDaGambaVenice.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/MysteryBass/100_0084.jpg

The signs of Viol making in this Bass include old scars from thin rail type cross braces instead of crossbars, a small tab of wood near the current neck block left from a blockless type neck set and the soft lower corners like those of the old English and French Viol d'Gambas. Internally it curves around almost like a cornerless design. Also, the Bass with its current Neck as I got it measures about 6'5" from the Lower lip of the wood by the endpin to the tip of the Scroll which is a later added shorter 3-string Scroll now modified for 4-strings. This picture you posted Don gives me some clue as to what my 'biggie' might have been born as.

Don, I see that the link is from your website. What was the original source of this pic? Can you post that link so we can see maybe a few others or some more info on who is pictured playing it? The Bass in the back right of the photo in the corner doesn't look too small either!

Comparing some measurements, my Bass is a similar size to my former Prescott which was a slightly cut down 4/4 Bass, similar vintage to your Prescott.

[Ken Smith]

Here is a link to what looks like that exact same Violone (http://www.mdw.ac.at/I105/orpheon/Seiten/Instruments/violone/vo-venez_.htm) but the lady is not seen on the page. Link 1 (http://www.mdw.ac.at/I105/orpheon/Seiten/Instruments/violone/vo-venez_.htm)
Here's a few other Violone links from that page;
Link 2 (http://www.mdw.ac.at/I105/orpheon/Seiten/Instruments/violone/vo-thir.htm) Link 3 (http://www.mdw.ac.at/I105/orpheon/Seiten/Instruments/violone/vo-eberle.htm) Link 4 (http://www.mdw.ac.at/I105/orpheon/Seiten/Instruments/violone/vo-ger.htm)

[Johnny Layton]

http://www.mdw.ac.at/I105/orpheon/Fotos/Fotos-Instr/Vo_Eberle-holesm.jpg

I remember very well trying out a bass with f-holes just like this one time when Robertsons was around. It was an awesome bass and it looked so cool. They were willing to let me hang onto it and work out a deal with them but I declined. I wasn't (and am still not) in a position financially to own and maintain pedigree doublebass instruments.


Maybe when I am older and/or retired :)

[Paul Warburton]

Nick Lloyd made a beautiful bass with these same FF holes.

[Johnny Layton]

I remember that name. I always liked reading his stuff. It was very practical and common-sense to me.

[David Powell]

Here's a nice page on a violone site (http://www.mdw.ac.at/I105/orpheon/Seiten/Instruments/violone/vo-thir.htm).

[Ken Smith]

I have just sold my 5-string and therefore am officially retired from trying to play the 5er and working hard on using a Fingered/Chromatic C-Ext to go down. ;)

I just couldn't get the low B to work nor could I find the right string all the time. That was partly due to lack of practice. When the buyer came to test the Bass, we switched it to high C to low E tuning. I came with a Spiro/Red C-string and I had a usable set of Reds on my French Bass so one by one while testing we changed all the strings. Finally that Bass sounded good with a full set of Reds! It was deep, dark, sweet, colorful, loud and bowable. I would have never tried that set on that Bass (or any other Bass of mine) as they usually sound too nasal for me. In front of the Bass they were just slightly edgy but from 10 feet or an office away thru the wall, the Bass sounded great and in the hands of a great European player now living in USA.

So, for now, me and the 5-string is just a shady memory..:o

[David Powell]

Ken, when you ventured into the five my thoughts were that "this guy is going to give anything a serious try, even if he has been on a four string for most of his life." Kudos to you for giving it shot, Ken, and for offering your insights on the comparative disadvantages or advantages as well as the difficulty in switching.

I'm not having the easiest time myself and I realized right away that if I was going to make steady progress, I needed to have 5 on the EBG as well because it helped me think in terms of note location and all of that. Switching back and forth for a few months, I was often hitting the wrong string. I still do now and then. I was only two years into the DB when I made the change. 2 years later, it still is not easy. Hopefully I'll get there, but I refrain from encouraging experienced players to switch at this point.

[Ken Smith]

Not having the easiest time for me as you stated also has to do with the fact that I have some other great 4-string Basses that I would rather play musically. If the 5er was my Gilkes or one of the other classics I might have used it all the time but converting one of those for trial sakes is out of the question.

My conclusion has to do with many factors but mainly that I don't go down for than many notes on the B-string and the 98% or more of the time the B is either in my way or confusing me. For most things I can manage on the Extension and manage is the key because that is about the best most people can do with it on certain parts. I have asked players in both the Philly orch and the NY Phil to get some insight as to how they 'manage' and it seems that neither of the two orchestras have a 5er between them or at least that I have seen.

I am from NY and live near Philly now. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me! My teacher Lew Norton never used an Ext. as far as I know and he spent most of his professional career in the NY Phil playing just a 4-string.

It was fun, plenty fun the times I had with the 5er. Most of all just having it to play and to be different in the section. So is a 3-legged Cat in the litter..:p

[Paul Warburton]

I been 5ing it for so long, I have trouble playing a 4 stringer.:confused:

[Ken Smith]

I been 5ing it for so long, I have trouble playing a 4 stringer.:confused:

Paul, Please come by and bring your bow. Play in one of the orchestras for one night and then tell me it's not a problem!:confused:

If it was jazz pizz, I don't think it would have been so hard but with the bow, yikes!:eek:

[Paul Warburton]

Paul, Please come by and bring your bow. Play in one of the orchestras for one night and then tell me it's not a problem!:confused:

If it was jazz pizz, I don't think it would have been so hard but with the bow, yikes!:eek:

What kind of man are you? :rolleyes:

[Ken Smith]

What kind of man are you? :rolleyes:

Paul, please keep the questions simple..:confused:

[Jeff Tranauskas]

Ken,
I am sorry to hear that the mighty 5er is gone for good.
Did you try playing it when it was strung with a high C?
If so, did you feel the high C was any benefit to the style of music that you play?
For me the age old saying "some is good, more is better" applies with regard to string quantity. I've had a Shen Willow previously that I played side by side with the 5er and ended up going with the 5 over the 4.
Of course my skill set ( on a scale of 1-10) is in the negative numbers.

[Ken Smith]

Ken,
I am sorry to hear that the mighty 5er is gone for good.
Did you try playing it when it was strung with a high C?
If so, did you feel the high C was any benefit to the style of music that you play?
For me the age old saying "some is good, more is better" applies with regard to string quantity. I've had a Shen Willow previously that I played side by side with the 5er and ended up going with the 5 over the 4.
Of course my skill set ( on a scale of 1-10) is in the negative numbers.


Well Jeff, I did play it for a bit but mostly for the buyer to listen to it from various distances to judge its tone.

I personally would not play it with a high C. By the way, all the Strings put on were older used Spiro Reds and not new strings. My point on the strings was that the Bass sounded great with Spiros and more open than I had ever heard it. Also, the tension was actually loosed than it was with either 2/3 Flex/Perm, 4/1 Flex/Perm and maybe even all 5 Flatchromes. The Reds really sounded good on the Bass and the Spiro 'edge' was gone 10 feet away from the Bass, much to my surprise.

For Jazz, that Bass sounded great with the Reds. For me now that I have been shedding some rapid Extension passages I have decided to stick with a 4/ext or just 4 as needed for orchestra playing. On the other hand, I did a Jazz duo last week in Philly with a great Pianist and used my Bisiach with Ext. The Bisiach has a Thomastic Superflexible/Ropecore Ext E/C string on it and sounds huge for Pizz or bowing but doesn't Bow as well as Flexocor. It's sound makes up for the extra effort with the Bow but I still might go back to Flex on that E/C as it's all I had handy for Jeff when he finished up the Ext job.

The High 'C; to me is more of a musical thing than a string choice. If I were doing only Jazz and playing a 5er (that Bass!), I might use Reds and a low B, just like Uncle Pauly does..:D

[David Powell]

Well, I'm afraid I've become a 5-er guy for life. I'll just have to put up with the infrequent unintended double stops. I'd really miss the low string and the way it plays just like all the others. Theres just nothing like dropping down that extra octave to C or D or B or even the Eb in the jazz ensembles. I don't know if I would ever go to more than 5, but 5 seems more and more comfortable now that I'm using them on all the basses. I do think it would be quite confusing trying to switch back and forth unless I just spent all day everyday switching basses. Back to practice .....

[Ken Smith]

Well, I'm afraid I've become a 5-er guy for life. I'll just have to put up with the infrequent unintended double stops. I'd really miss the low string and the way it plays just like all the others. Theres just nothing like dropping down that extra octave to C or D or B or even the Eb in the jazz ensembles. I don't know if I would ever go to more than 5, but 5 seems more and more comfortable now that I'm using them on all the basses. I do think it would be quite confusing trying to switch back and forth unless I just spent all day everyday switching basses. Back to practice .....

I hear you loud and clear about the double stops. That was a major problem for me and sometimes just a single stop but missing by a string..:eek:

Last night I took out one of my Excerpt Books and tried one of the Brandenbergs' using a 4-str w/Ext. It was much easier playing it with only 4 strings and the open 'C' but when I had to quickly hit a D or Eb and jump into a run a string or two up it wasn't so easy. Hitting a shorter sounding quarter note or eighth is not so bad jumping back on the extension but missing the string entirely and playing a completely wrong note is much worse I think.

Now I am working on the Storm parts with a CD to play it up to speed. Again, when not playing below the E, I don't have that 'B' pushing the other strings further away from me of have confusion of which string I'm on or the occasional Dbl Stop mistake.

Also, I've done a few Jazz gigs and playing some Lows on the Extension when wanted is much easier then playing them when written!

[Paul Warburton]

Also, I've done a few Jazz gigs and playing some Lows on the Extension when wanted is much easier then playing them when written!

You always make it sound like jazz players don't have to deal with as many probllems as classical players and I think your right.

[Ken Smith]

You always make it sound like jazz players don't have to deal with as many problems as classical players and I think your right.

Well Uncle Pauly, I too am a Jazz player as well BUT my whole purpose of getting or rather trying the 5er was for playing Classical Orchestra Music.

I don't know if Classical players have more problems with a 5er like mentioned above but being that we play mainly with the Bow and 100% what's written on the page, I would venture as far as saying that Classical players have different problems..;)

[David Powell]

As a jazz player and mostly classical listener, I think the classical players have a huge challenge in making the music their own. With jazz it kind of starts as "your own" in the ideal world.

I will admit experiencing a certain sense of satisfaction after having come back from an annual festival that features diverse music and players and out of 4 DB players there, I had the only large 5-string. No-one had extensions. We were covering Chitlins Con Carne and bouncing down to that low C after a couple of choruses in the higher octave and hearing it reverberate across the stage and out to the audience;- no matter what the other players could do, that moment belonged to me. I think it might have scored lowest note played at that festival, unless some keyboard went a step lower. And I played all of Foot Prints arco, again using the lower G on the B string as the pickup to the head instead of the higher G. That's a dark foot print.

Paul, it was you and that Bohmann that did this to me. And I thank you!
:o

[Paul Warburton]

As a jazz player and mostly classical listener, I think the classical players have a huge challenge in making the music their own. With jazz it kind of starts as "your own" in the ideal world.

I will admit experiencing a certain sense of satisfaction after having come back from an annual festival that features diverse music and players and out of 4 DB players there, I had the only large 5-string. No-one had extensions. We were covering Chitlins Con Carne and bouncing down to that low C after a couple of choruses in the higher octave and hearing it reverberate across the stage and out to the audience;- no matter what the other players could do, that moment belonged to me. I think it might have scored lowest note played at that festival, unless some keyboard went a step lower. And I played all of Foot Prints arco, again using the lower G on the B string as the pickup to the head instead of the higher G. That's a dark foot print.

Paul, it was you and that Bohmann that did this to me. And I thank you!
:o
You're most welcome....due to finances, i'm selling the Bohmman. Any takers, Kenny- Boy?

[Ken Smith]

You're most welcome....due to finances, i'm selling the Bohmman. Any takers, Kenny- Boy?

Just when I thought 'me and 5-strings' were 'Oil and Water'.. Ok, ok.. Make me an offer I can't refuse!;)

[Eric Hochberg]

I have the good fortune to be playing some jazz bass with the Grant Park Symphony here in Chicago tonight and Friday. We are playing Rodrigo's Concierto (Sketches of Spain) Adagio and some Brazilian music, including a Gil Evans arrangement of Corcovado. The concert features the singer Luciana Souza.

I don't have many opportunities to play in an orchestral setting and have been closely checking out the bass section. On the extension front, here's the tally:
3 mechanicals, two fingered (one without extra stops) 1 bass extensionless, and one 5 string Poelmann. I know this has been discussed, but watching the players reaching up on those extensions, I can't help but think the 5 string bass just makes more sense. I'm going to try and talk with Andy Anderson, who plays the 5 stringer, to find out what brought him to it, as extensions seem to be the norm in the states.

[Ken Smith]

I have the good fortune to be playing some jazz bass with the Grant Park Symphony here in Chicago tonight and Friday. We are playing Rodrigo's Concierto (Sketches of Spain) Adagio and some Brazilian music, including a Gil Evans arrangement of Corcovado. The concert features the singer Luciana Souza.

I don't have many opportunities to play in an orchestral setting and have been closely checking out the bass section. On the extension front, here's the tally:
3 mechanicals, two fingered (without stops I think) 1 bass extensionless, and one 5 string Poelmann. I know this has been discussed, but watching the players reaching up on those extensions, I can't help but think the 5 string bass just makes more sense. I'm going to try and talk with Andy Anderson, who plays the 5 stringer, to find out what brought him to it, as extensions seem to be the norm in the states.

Well, here's my take on it. If playing some moving lines and octaves, the 5er works best. If you have your speed and practice it, the capo extension can do quite a bit. If just a note here and there on the bottom, I think the 5th string is in the way for the majority of the time you don't need it. Also, the entire time you are playing on a bigger and wider neck even when playing the normal 4-strings.

I think that every 5-string player says they prefer it to the extension. Every capo extension player says the same about their choice as well.

[Joel Larsson]

For me, an extension is a great way to bring a four-stringer down low, without converting it to a fiver. I know a few people who actually say that their bass has sounded better with the E/C than it did as a regular four-string. I think 'more open' was what they said. While on the other hand, a fifth string might choke the bass, plus it gets über difficult to set it up properly, so as to avoid playing on three strings at the same time without having to reach a mile for the G, and it also has to be able to carry those low notes. Big enough, basically... which in itself might restrict playability. A fiver that really works is dang hard to find and usually costs a lot. But yes, there are times when a fiver is simply priceless. Most of the really great ones are owned by the wealthier orchestras. A newer fiver is of course affordable, but if you already have eight Panormo-class basses in the section, people just won't ever get really satisfied with the sound that it produces. In which case, of course, it's basically a luxury problem.

[Eric Hochberg]

I spoke with Andy last night and to quote him, the 5 string seemed "a more elegant solution" than the extension. I played his bass and it is very easy to get around on. I assumed all 5 stringers would have massive feeling necks and fingerboards but this isn't the case with his at all. The spacing at the nut felt almost BG like. He told me he worked very hard to get the setup just right for him. An interesting thing he mentioned is the approach German players use with fingerboards relatively flat. To compensate, they lighten up so as not to play adjacent strings and use a very fast bow arm to get the volume they need.

[Ken Smith]

Even though I don't really play a 5er, I like having one around. Here's a not so old one I got a few months back. It's a Hofner from 1977 (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/5string/) but looks new.

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/5string/images/front.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/5string/images/back.jpg

It has Permanents on 4 strings and the Low B a very old 'Thomastic Precision' solid core string. Maybe it needs different strings, I can't tell because it's not what I normally play.

[Ken Smith]

Even though I don't really play a 5er, I like having one around. Here's a not so old one I got a few months back. It's a Hofner from 1977 (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/5string/) but looks new.

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/5string/images/front.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/5string/images/back.jpg

It has Permanents on 4 strings and the Low B a very old 'Thomastic Precision' solid core string. Maybe it needs different strings, I can't tell because it's not what I normally play.

I posted this in Orchestra strings a few days ago but didn't get any replies. Now I see that I mentioned this a year ago here on this thread. Now that the bass is back and fully set-up I would like to hear a few opinions concerning the 'B' String.

I started a thread on 'Which 'B' (http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=408)?' some time ago but that was for a different bass which is long gone now.

I just got my *Hofner 5er (*old pics) (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/5string/) back from Mike Magee in Pittsburgh and she's beautiful, the Bass, NOT Mike.. lol

It needed a full set-up so I had the Board pulled and replaced, a CF Rod put in the neck to stiffen it, the neck re-carved with the fake flame removed (shows some nice figure now), new bridge with adjusters and new Permanent strings from G to E.

We discussed the Strings and went with Permanents for the G-E but he thinks that the original 'B' a Thomastik 'Precision' solid core is a great sounding string. The previous 4/4 5er I sold ended up with that 'B' as well but a brand new string. The Strings on this bass were the originals from 1977. Although the bass has barely been played, they had been at or near tension for over 30 years now.

So, should I put a Permanent 'B' on there to match or what? The Permanents on there now sound great and Bow nice and smooth.

Also, this bass being a 3/4 Wilfer/Juzek style model (if not an actual Wilfer re-labeled) might be best utilized as a high 'C' 5er rather than an Orchestra 5er with Low 'B' but only time will tell. The bass IS fairly loud so I need to take it out to a rehearsal or two and see what she can do.

With some of the 5s I have had and tried I was able to either move the strings over into wider slots and move the 'B' off to the side to use it as a 4-stringer or just take off the 'B' from the bridge and tighten it back with some foam so it doesn't vibrate and use as a 4 as well. This bass however now has a really wide board and full 27mm spacing each string, same as the average orchestra 4, more or less.

So, keeping it set-up for Orchestra, would a Perm B be the best choice?

[Thomas Erickson]

What's the neck angle and bridge height like to get spacing that wide?

[Robert J Spear]

Having been in string work most of my life, I think that there are good acoustic and performance reasons why the four-string models prevailed in the violin/viola/cello world. That said, there are compelling reasons for the five-string bass in the modern orchestra. While fivers might be somewhat scarce here in the USA, a quick look at a recent photograph of the bass section of the Berlin Philharmonic will show that they are still a factor and that they still have advantages over the four-stringer with a C extension.

I just finished a five-stringer for Paul Unger of the Fort Worth Symphony, and it was a very rewarding collaboration in rethinking what orchestral bass players might need for the 21st century. If there's any interest in kicking this can down the road a bit longer, count me in. At the rate posts have occurred in this thread, we should all have time to fully contemplate our comments. As Mae West famously said, "Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." The bass maker's lament . . . :D

[Ken Smith]

Tom and Robert who both just posted, can you help me with my question above?

"So, keeping it set-up for Orchestra, would a Perm B be the best choice?"

[Ken Smith]

What's the neck angle and bridge height like to get spacing that wide?

You mean in degrees? I don't know exactly but the Overstand is 30mm (1 3/16+") original, the String Spacing is 27.5mm (1 3/32") string to string, center to center and the Bridge height is 6 1/4" with the strings at the end of the fingerboard low at 4mm height on the G and 9mm on the E, the B is at 8mm off the FB. The FB is 4" wide at the end, 33 7/8" long and goes up to a 'B' at the end with a String Length of 41 3/4".

The spacing is wide and with the low string height, I can just barely clear the C-bouts on the outer strings with the Bow. If the spacing was narrower, the strings would be moved slightly inwards moving the outer string higher up on the bridge slightly for clearance as the overhang on the sides of the outer strings is playable but much less than a regular 4-string. Usually we see basses like this at 25-26mm spacing but with the wide board, why not go wider? The only improvement I could suggest is the neck being moved out to 35-40mm for the bridge to go higher off the Top to clear the Bouts better with still a low string height if desired. Still, I think I can play this bass and plan to try it at an Orchestra rehearsal or two in the least when the season starts.

[Robert J Spear]

I'm going to have to punt on this one. I don't play enough anymore to have had experience with all the strings that are out there now. I can say that for the low B I would tend to favor a steel rope-core because they are brighter and usually punchier. It's a bit of work to get them going because of that construction, but usually passages where you'd need a low B aren't fast. A string that is warm and mellow just gets muddy on most basses. Pizz is difficult enough without the extra damping.

[Ken Smith]

I'm going to have to punt on this one. I don't play enough anymore to have had experience with all the strings that are out there now. I can say that for the low B I would tend to favor a steel rope-core because they are brighter and usually punchier. It's a bit of work to get them going because of that construction, but usually passages where you'd need a low B aren't fast. A string that is warm and mellow just gets muddy on most basses. Pizz is difficult enough without the extra damping.

I agree with you on the string type but there are many many pieces with fast low passaged like in Shost. 5th, Beeth. 3rd, 5th, 6th.. and anything where the basses double the cellos. Many play the lines up an octave but I try and play it as written. For this I want a string that responds quick with the bow. Often the passage is mid tempo and jumps down for a note or two and you need it to grab or you are just playing behind the tempo.

I have used Perm B before but I was told that the current string Thom. Precision is a good 'B' but, it's as old as the bass. I need to but a new string so it's either that 'B' which has a solid core or a Perm. One bass I tried had Flex. 92s but the 'B' was a Jaegar blue/medium and played ok mixed with the 92s. Now that I have the Perm's on the bass which play well, I need a 'B' to match.

[Robert J Spear]

I agree with you on the string type but there are many, many pieces with fast low passaged like in Shost. 5th, Beeth. 3rd, 5th, 6th.. and anything where the basses double the cellos.

Those guys were seriously trying to see if bassists could take a joke. And I for sure would argue that Beethoven never intended the passage in the 6th to be played cleanly since it is meant to rumble and evoke a storm (one of which is passing overhead even as I write).

We will have to develop a bass that is intended for fifths tuning and that is fast enough to start bringing out these kinds of passages cleanly. That will surely mean another look at what an orchestra bass is supposed to sound like, how it should be played (yeah, I know; really well). This is currently where my head is at in bass development.

BTW, I saw a 5'er not along ago that had the low B string spacing very close to the E. Other strings were spaced about normally. The bridge was modified to get the B out of the way, so to speak. The player said that he needed the B from time to time, but not often enough to give it equal standing. I tried playing the bass (everyone else fled from the room), and the arrangement wasn't hard to get used to. I think somewhere in the forum someone else has already mentioned setting the bass up this way, but it was the first one I'd ever seen.

That's what I like about the bass world. Just when you think you've seen it all, you haven't. :)

[Ken Smith]

Those guys were seriously trying to see if bassists could take a joke. And I for sure would argue that Beethoven never intended the passage in the 6th to be played cleanly since it is meant to rumble and evoke a storm (one of which is passing overhead even as I write).

We will have to develop a bass that is intended for fifths tuning and that is fast enough to start bringing out these kinds of passages cleanly. That will surely mean another look at what an orchestra bass is supposed to sound like, how it should be played (yeah, I know; really well). This is currently where my head is at in bass development.

BTW, I saw a 5'er not along ago that had the low B string spacing very close to the E. Other strings were spaced about normally. The bridge was modified to get the B out of the way, so to speak. The player said that he needed the B from time to time, but not often enough to give it equal standing. I tried playing the bass (everyone else fled from the room), and the arrangement wasn't hard to get used to. I think somewhere in the forum someone else has already mentioned setting the bass up this way, but it was the first one I'd ever seen.

That's what I like about the bass world. Just when you think you've seen it all, you haven't. :)

They tried 5ths over a century or two ago in France and it failed when they heard the intonation as compared to playing in fourths. Why re-invent the wheel here. I tried 5ths for half a day and my mind was quite scrambled along with my tendons stretched and sore. I prefer under 42" string length with 4ths. I had one bass at 44 1/2" for a couple of years and it was no fun playing that length. Now it's down to 42" and much easier to play.

On the spacing and crowning for the B at the bridge, yes some bridges are cut like that for 5s but if you go and measure 100 bridges, the spacing from center to center in MMs, tell me how many are spaced evenly on even a 4 string. Most basses are not spaced perfectly, even to the eye. I can see the point of doing this to a B making it closer but it might be hard to jump down and not over reach for the B being closer not to mention hitting the C Bout with the bow hairs or the corner with the Frog.

What Beeth. meant to be played and what is required now is way way different. 3 or maybe 4 gut strings with high action playing the sextuplets in the 9th? lol.. in your dreams. That last page was like a pink slip. I think that's why those parts say Cello-Bass, same part. LOL.. Means "Lots Of Luck!" ... lol.. (the other meaning!)

[Richard Prowse]

Also, this bass being a 3/4 Wilfer/Juzek style model (if not an actual Wilfer re-labeled) might be best utilized as a high 'C' 5er rather than an Orchestra 5er with Low 'B' but only time will tell. The bass IS fairly loud so I need to take it out to a rehearsal or two and see what she can do.
I've fooled around quite a bit with C strings over the years. The best C string I found was a Corelli (Forte - from memory). The most fun I had with C strings was playing solo pieces up a fourth (same fingering) but, apart from that, I've found them a bit of a waste of time. I mean, they only add a few inches to how high you can play. Still, those solo pieces, up a fourth, can really sing like a cello. Ah, but there again, I'm a double bass player - let the cellists do that stuff.

[Steve Alcott]

Anybody ever try (on a 5 stringer) a high C string and a C extension?

[Richard Prowse]

Anybody ever try (on a 5 stringer) a high C string and a C extension?
Okay, I'm listening.

[Ken Smith]

My quest if ONLY for a Low 'B' to match the Permanent set at the moment,

[Brian Gencarelli]

My quest if ONLY for a Low 'B' to match the Permanent set at the moment,

Ken,

I think the Perm B would be a good solution. I really like the low C, so I don't see why it would be much different.

You could also go with a spirocore, but it will sound better if it's old.

FWIW,
Brian

[Alex Verbree]

If you've got the spare scratch, I'm sure a Genssler (sp?) string would be the best. aside from that, I think most 5ers I've heard of have a spiro low B because it's reliably loud and articulate.

[Ken Smith]

If you've got the spare scratch, I'm sure a Genssler (sp?) string would be the best. aside from that, I think most 5ers I've heard of have a spiro low B because it's reliably loud and articulate.

Those choices to match the sound and tension or a Permanent set already on the bass?

I have a Spiro solo Extension E/C on the my Claudot and the other 3 strings are Original Flexocors. It sounds good but not a perfect match. It does work however.

[Robert J Spear]

Anybody ever try (on a 5 stringer) a high C string and a C extension?

Never saw anything like it. I have seen 5-stringers with a high C and a low E, and with a low B and a high G. It would be interesting to see (and hear) a 5-er with a C-extension on the low E. But, I think that would be quite a cumbersome rig to handle.

[Eric Hochberg]

I had a chance yesterday to briefly play Joe Guastefeste's Busan which is set up with five strings. The fingerboard is extended width over the neck on the B side and the bridge takes a dive from the E to B string putting the B somewhat out of the way. Beautiful bass.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

My quest if ONLY for a Low 'B' to match the Permanent set at the moment,
I like the Thomastic Superflexible B. It has bite, but it's not as bright as the Spiro.

[Ken Smith]

I like the Thomastic Superflexible B. It has bite, but it's not as bright as the Spiro.

Where would you place the Permanent string in that group being that the other 4 are Perm's as well. :confused:

Oh, and I ordered the B yesterday with some other stock I needed. :eek:

Should be here today. ;)

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Not sure I understand your question, Ken, but I used the Superflexible B with a full set of BelCantos. It sounded well-matched.

[Ken Smith]

Not sure I understand your question, Ken, but I used the Superflexible B with a full set of BelCantos. It sounded well-matched.

Nice BUT, the strings on the Bass are Permanents and that's what I need to match up. I have the Perm B now but haven't had time to put it on yet.

[Ken Smith]

Nice BUT, the strings on the Bass are Permanents and that's what I need to match up. I have the Perm B now but haven't had time to put it on yet.

I put the Perm B on shortly after my last post but. Then I re-cut the top of the bridge to clear the C-bouts better. Now, the bass plays tight but is playable and the Perm B works just find. I have one concert under my belt so far and a few more to play the 5er on before the season ends.

[Ken Smith]

I put the Perm B on shortly after my last post but. Then I re-cut the top of the bridge to clear the C-bouts better. Now, the bass plays tight but is playable and the Perm B works just find. I have one concert under my belt so far and a few more to play the 5er on before the season ends.

The bass is slated to have the neck moved out from its original set. The luthier involved and I agree we need to do this so the string spacing is not limited to a narrow setting.

>>>>> The bass was sold about a year after it was modified. All is good here.

[Ken Smith]

5-string Orchestra basses.. What are some of the favorite sets for Orchestra and best for bowing on the B sting. What do they use in Vienna and Berlin. I might be getting another 5 soon to have around and can't remember what strings I liked if any some years back.