C-Extensions

[Patrick Wasserman]

As a high school student, I'm really not sure if this is a good idea or not. I know it is not at all necessary, but I've been saving up plenty of money, and I thought it might be a cool thing to do for my Kolstein Fendt.

To my understanding, the four types of C-extensions are a stenholm, one with chromatic locks, an E-lock and one sliding lock, and then a fingered extension (sorry for using the word lock, I forget the right term). Of these, I'm not really sure about the advantages and disadvantages. Either help me and decide which of these is most effective, or help my wallet and convince me to not do anything :)

Thanks,
Patrick

[Ken Smith]

In todays Orchestras unless it's been on the Bass awhile the two most common types are the Latched/Chromatic Extension or the Fingered/E-latch only Extension. This is what I have seen either on TV or in person. The NY Phil is mixed but Bill Blossom has made some Extensions for his and other Basses. The Philly Orch has either Mechanical Exts of older installations or Chromatic/Latched Exts with only one exception and that's the asst. Princ. Neil Courtney who has a Fingered/E-latch on his attrib. d'Salo Bass.

The difference in price between the Fingered (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/MorelliBass/images/679.jpg)and Chromatic (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/GilkesBass/images/scrollproL.jpg) is about 40% from my experience. My advice is get one of the guys who makes both types to make you a Fingered Ext. with the possibility of adding the latches later.

Arnold, Jeff? Wanna steer this guy on the right direction?

[Jeff Bollbach]

Yeah, unless you are used to and addicted to a mechanical x-10-shun it is best to stay away from those. Lots of headaches. Kens advice is good-get one with an E latch only and you can always add whatever other latches you want later.

[Jake Newcomb]

Jeff, what do you think of extensions as a luthier? A luthier I know hates them, so does a bow maker I know who does great work on violin family instruments.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Hi Jake. I'm not Jeff. He's busy gloating about last night. He deserves to do so. His bass sounded great in Bill Blossom's able hands!

About extensions--all C extensions are an imperfect solution to a major problem (needing to reach the low C to Eb). If professionally constructed and installed, they work well and sound good. In my opinion, the machine types are very problematic and I do my best to convince players to avoid them. Also, it is in vogue to get extensions which go down to a low B. I think this is a bad idea. There is too much torque pulling the neck and extension out of whack when you make the piece that long (hanging off the scroll about 4 inches). Every one I have seen, even relatively new, has been warped, with the center of the extension lifting up toward the string.

I think the trend toward chromatic-gated extensions is here to stay. I also think it makes the most sense to have this type made all at once, not to have the extra gates rigged up later.

[Jeff Bollbach]

Jeff, what do you think of extensions as a luthier? A luthier I know hates them, so does a bow maker I know who does great work on violin family instruments.

I think there is a higher % of basses with extentions that sound great than 5 strings that sound great. There are folks who hate them just cuz they are a pain to install[create]. I used to feel that way untill I started to have some success with extentions.

BTW, Arnold-I forgot to tell you that I played Ken's Martini with the chromatic x-10-shun that you made. That was a beautiful thing-worked fantastically!

[Jake Newcomb]

Thanks Arnold and Jeff! I was asking because I do not really like playing on extensions. Don't get me wrong, I've had the experience of being in orchestra sections where we had a some great players with extensions on their basses and the low notes sounded awesome. For me though, I just prefer a bass without one.

[Ken Smith]

Thanks Arnold and Jeff! I was asking because I do not really like playing on extensions. Don't get me wrong, I've had the experience of being in orchestra sections where we had a some great players with extensions on their basses and the low notes sounded awesome. For me though, I just prefer a bass without one.

I know exactly how you feel. A few years ago I started looking into getting a 5-string. After trying one out I opted for having a Bass I had converted into a 5er. The first Bass I thought of converting didn't have enough room in the peg box to comfortable fit the 5th gear so we put a fingered extension (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/MorelliBass/MorelliBass.htm) on it instead. The next Bass was bigger but we still had to take some wood out just under the Scroll. This was not a pedigree of great value but did have a huge sound. Arnold turned it into a great 5-string Bass (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Mystery2/Hungarian.htm) while doing a needed restoration. I played it for a few concerts and several rehearsals but after getting my next Bass done with a chromatic extension (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/MartiniBass/martini_bass_2.htm) which can be fingered as well, I found this to be the best for me in most situations.

I found the 5th string in my way when not in use. Also, playing it was not as easy as I thought. The only music I found the 5er to be better to use than an Ext. was the Brandenburg Concertos where the low notes change faster than one could change the stops. I think with practice, one could pull it off. With the Beethoven's 5th, it can be fingered but how in-tune are you? Is intonation that important that low down and at that tempo?

Some players have a 5er at home for those special occasions when it would be best to use one. The majority of the players in USA just fight it out with whatever extension they have on their Bass. I am in the 'fight it out' stage as I have since put my 5er up for sale..

[Jake Newcomb]

I'd just rather leave the notes below to E to other people. I'd like to get a bass with a beautiful carved head like Jeff's 'Simba' bass so no conductor will ever demand that I get an extension.

[Ken Smith]

I'd just rather leave the notes below to E to other people. I'd like to get a bass with a beautiful carved head like Jeff's 'Simba' bass so no conductor will ever demand that I get an extension.

Actually, Jeff mentioned he could make an Extension for Simba (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Bollbach/Bollbach.htm) if I asked. It would be slightly different from his regular extensions though. The principal of the Philly Orch, Hal Robinson has an extension on his gargoyle head Italian Bass (http://www.philorch.org/styles/poa02e/www/tour_2005/tour_photos/tokyo_4.jpg) with the string running thru the head, mouth and jaw going into the tuner shaft.

[Jason Mendelson]

I had an extension added to my bass... The only thing I do NOT love about it is when playing pizz jazz, I dont get that same heavly growl out of hitting an open E when the E lock is in place... know what I mean? It doesnt lock as tight, I have to tighten it every now and then...

The extension was added by my luthier in miami florida, paris banchetti (spelling?)

Here is a pic of the extension...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/PerformanceNISMO/slapinfunkdb/P1040480.jpg

[Ken Smith]

I had an extension added to my bass... The only thing I do NOT love about it is when playing pizz jazz, I dont get that same heavly growl out of hitting an open E when the E lock is in place... know what I mean? It doesnt lock as tight, I have to tighten it every now and then...

The extension was added by my luthier in miami florida, paris banchetti (spelling?)

Here is a pic of the extension...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/PerformanceNISMO/slapinfunkdb/P1040480.jpg


Jason, that's a nice looking Bass from what I can see. Why not fill out your profile and tell us something about your Bass as well. What ever the origin, it can be added to the Bass Schools section in this Forum with pics from all angles. Ok?

[Jason Mendelson]

Ill add a lil something now...

[Jeff Bollbach]

Is that a low B? Looks awful long!

[Jason Mendelson]

Is that a low B? Looks awful long!


Nope, its perfectly in tune C when open... I think my bass has a long string length... I forgot what it was last time I measured it... or maybe the scroll is short?

but I agree it does look long!

And I did start a thread on my bass....

http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=73

[Bob Branstetter]

The only thing I do NOT love about it is when playing pizz jazz, I dont get that same heavly growl out of hitting an open E when the E lock is in place... know what I mean? It doesnt lock as tight, I have to tighten it every now and then...That is a problem that I've never had with any of mine or those by others that I've played. I have to wonder if the brass bar that the "E" lock fastens into might be a little thin and flexing a bit. I usually use 1/4" thick brass on mine and the "E" locks tight and responds just like an open "E" on a bass without an extension. Just a thought.

[Jason Mendelson]

My lock is Ebony... When I open and close it the lock nut loosens up I guess... I need to add a washer or something but dont want to make it vibrate at all... If i tighten it up...its good...

[Bob Branstetter]

My lock is Ebony... When I open and close it the lock nut loosens up I guess... I need to add a washer or something but dont want to make it vibrate at all... If i tighten it up...its good...I'm referring to the piece of brass that the screw (that passes through the Ebony lock/trigger) is threaded into prior to reaching the washer and lock nut. A thicker brass bar has more area for threads which results in greater rigidity before the locking nut is attached to the end of the screw. The purpose of the locking nut is simply to keep the screw from turning after the correct amount of tension has been applied to the screw (i.e. into the brass bar).

[Kjetil Laukholm]

To my understanding, the four types of C-extensions are a stenholm, one with chromatic locks, an E-lock and one sliding lock, and then a fingered extension (sorry for using the word lock, I forget the right term). Of these, I'm not really sure about the advantages and disadvantages. Either help me and decide which of these is most effective, or help my wallet and convince me to not do anything :)

Thanks,
Patrick

I feel every begginning extension player should learn on an extension with an e-stop only. You have to learn to play without the stops and you will learn faster if you have no chance to get lazy with the stops.
Get a latched extension or a keyed extension later.

A for letting other players cover low notes - I find it amateurish to show up on the job without the low notes.

[Ken Smith]

I feel every begginning extension player should learn on an extension with an e-stop only. You have to learn to play without the stops and you will learn faster if you have no chance to get lazy with the stops.
Get a latched extension or a keyed extension later.

A for letting other players cover low notes - I find it amateurish to show up on the job without the low notes.

Fingered is great for some things but having the latches allows you to lock the notes in place. In some pieces like Beethoven 3rd, 1st mvmt you need to start with C and lock it chromatically to Eb every 4 bar pattern playing the pedal note about 3 or 4 times each. Fingering it you might hit it good once or twice. Reaching back to lock it fast is only the first of each 4 bar pattern. It is in 'one' so you don't have much time. On the 6th Storm movement, you play it open. Two good examples from the same composer. The 5th and 9th are mixed open and closed from what I remember.

Personally, I would go for the best latched chromatic you can get that is easier to finger. This is better for the player all around and better for the Luthier knowing what to make from the start. The 3 basses I've used most in the last few years with Extensions were the Martini (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/martini/), Gilkes (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/gilkes/) and Hart (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/hart/). The Gilkes was sold and maybe the best to play overall and a 41" length. The Martini and Hart are a toss up depending on the music. I used the Hart for my concert last week, the Martini the week or so before and its next to me here at home for a concert tomorrow. March and April, who knows? One of them or the Jacquet when it's done and if I can get used to it quick enough. All good classic Orchestra basses should have a high grade extension as standard. Like power steering and AC in a car. Can't go without it and get the job done.

[Kjetil Laukholm]

I also prefer a chromatic ext, but you have to be able to play those licks without one.
I just came back from a long tour of europe with the Copenhagen Phil with beethoven 3 on it and while it took a lot of work, the low licks in felt fine on the Hill and it had an e lock only. On my old Hachez I did as you do and latched each.

I see too many players using the stops as crutches and they never learn to play the fingered notes as securely as any other range on the instrument.

[Ken Smith]

I also prefer a chromatic ext, but you have to be able to play those licks without one.
I just came back from a long tour of europe with the Copenhagen Phil with beethoven 3 on it and while it took a lot of work, the low licks in felt fine on the Hill and it had an e lock only. On my old Hachez I did as you do and latched each.

I see too many players using the stops as crutches and they never learn to play the fingered notes as securely as any other range on the instrument.

Jumping back and forth on that section seems do difficult especially if you want to have any length of the note values fingered on and off the extension. That would cut the note values in half for me. Am I missing something here? Other than the Bass playing the Cello part an octave below, anything that helps you get there should be good. I see no shame in latching them and then having the pedal already latched for the other 2 or 3 notes in each run.

[Kjetil Laukholm]

No shame in latching (and I wish I had my old Hachez exension with locks while playing it) but one does need to be able to play it without. The style in that passage is somewhat short so the shift is not a problem. The only real problem is consistancy of pitch, which takes some work.

[Ken Smith]

No shame in latching (and I wish I had my old Hachez exension with locks while playing it) but one does need to be able to play it without. The style in that passage is somewhat short so the shift is not a problem. The only real problem is consistancy of pitch, which takes some work.

Well, even without the low note shifts, pitch does not come so easy..

[Kjetil Laukholm]

To quote Ed Barker, "as a bass player, your consistancy of pitch is equal to your standard of living"

[Sam Sherry]

I feel every beginning extension player should learn on an extension with an e-stop only. You have to learn to play without the stops and you will learn faster if you have no chance to get lazy with the stops.
KL, you've touched on something here that resonates for me.

I played jazz without an extension for thirty-some years. I've been playing jazz with an extension for about half a year. I often feel like I'm a beginner down there (and I like that feeling a lot).

[Ken Smith]

KL, you've touched on something here that resonates for me.

I played jazz without an extension for thirty-some years. I've been playing jazz with an extension for about half a year. I often feel like I'm a beginner down there (and I like that feeling a lot).

Sam, join a community orchestra and get some practice on the extension. Playing jazz is most often choosing when you want to play what ever notes where. Playing Orchestra is playing the written page without improv. Many players in Orchestras play up the octave not having an ext. or 5er but for learning, play as much down as you can. Often for x-mas concerts I play extra low notes as it's not the master works and the conductor doesn't mind or even notice. The Brandenburg's are a good workout. Written for mainly Cello or 5-string are quite the workout for an Extension.

[Sam Sherry]

Ken --

An excellent suggestion and well-taken. I played in orchestras as a student, amateur and semi-pro and stopped about twenty years ago.

I love improvising. Orchestra music, for all the many moments of beauty it provides, is second choice. I'm lucky to be able to play and even luckier to be able to play jazz.

Play on, maestro!

[Ken Smith]

Ken --

An excellent suggestion and well-taken. I played in orchestras as a student, amateur and semi-pro and stopped about twenty years ago.

I love improvising. Orchestra music, for all the many moments of beauty it provides, is second choice. I'm lucky to be able to play and even luckier to be able to play jazz.

Play on, maestro!

But what I mean now is to do it again being that you have a c-extension and get some classical use with it. That's all.

[Ken McKay]

I remember listening to Paul Warburton play quite often when I was taking lessons from him in Denver. On his Bohmann fiver, we (the audience) would be lucky if he hit one or two choice notes on the B string during an entire night of playing.

[Ken Smith]

I remember listening to Paul Warburton play quite often when I was taking lessons from him in Denver. On his Bohmann fiver, we (the audience) would be lucky if he hit one or two choice notes on the B string during an entire night of playing.

I am mainly referring to playing Orchestra, not jazz clubs. That's where the extension work comes in. For me, throwing in a low note in jazz is by choice and done often for self satisfaction. I know this from personal experience. Playing the written notes in an Orchestra is more of a job whether you're having fun doing it or not. I just got this Schubert piece for a chamber concert and there are Eb's in much of the first movement and and a D or two that I noticed. Playing the runs without the Ext. or a 5er sounds just wrong. de-tuning is not much of an option either unless you have no choice. The part should be played as written as I intend to do so.

If you wanna see the bass play some low notes, go to the Orchestra hall;), not the beer hall!:eek:

[Eric Hochberg]

Playing the runs without the Ext. or a 5er sounds just wrong.

Could you explain why they sound wrong on a 5er?

[Ken Smith]

Could you explain why they sound wrong on a 5er?

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I mean that playing them without 'either' a 5 or ext. sounds wrong. By jumping up for the lower notes and then continuing the run ascending or decending is what I was referring to.

Playing them as written can be done only on a 5, ext or de-tuned. A regular 4 string bass you have to cheat and play 'up' those notes that are below the 'E'.