Endpin talk...

[Ken Smith]

I have seen just about everything from a Broom Stick in the Endpin to Carbon Fiber rods and Bent Endpins as well as the other standard variety from Steel Rods to Aluminum or Ebony Shafts. Some people think the material makes a difference in sound and some also think the length extended outwards or left inside un-extended also affects the tone and volume of the Bass.

I also want to point out that sound may differ as well regardless of the Endpin type or extension depending on the surface you are playing on. Do any of you notice that with Amps some sound better on wheels and some on the rubber depending on the floor type and the room?

What are your thoughts and experiences on this?

[Brian Ross]

For several years I've been using the carbon fiber Laborie endpin. A couple months ago I got the new design of this endpin which is made of an African hardwood (padauk). Laborie told me he had been surprised at how much better the hardwood endpin sounded than the carbon fiber. I was pretty skeptical but there really is a noticable difference. The sound is warmer and more resonant with the wooden endpin. Its prettier too.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Several months ago, I stuck a 5/8" birch dowel in place of the hollow metal pin and the bass sounded much warmer and seemed to have a bit more volume. This was on both tile and hardwood floors. The problem is that I sit on a low stool and with the bass laying into me, it slid on the crutch tip. It just didn't seem worth the trouble.

Regarding amps, I've used a small tripod Ultimate stand to help me hear, but nothing else.

[Charles Federle]

This question of endpins has been rather interesting to me lately, as we tried changing a friend of mines from something that was about 2-3 feet long to a 8 inch carbon fiber endpin. With nothing else changed his sound was much warmer and less metallic. Not sure if it has more to do with the material or the length, but it was a huge difference and I am now going to experiment around a bit. (since I don't really use much of an endpin this is easier then for some.)

I wonder though on those that use wood endpins. Do you have a metal tip to keep it in place or some sort of rubber cap on the end ?

[Ken Smith]

Several months ago, I stuck a 5/8" birch dowel in place of the hollow metal pin and the bass sounded much warmer and seemed to have a bit more volume. This was on both tile and hardwood floors. The problem is that I sit on a low stool and with the bass laying into me, it slid on the crutch tip. It just didn't seem worth the trouble.

Regarding amps, I've used a small tripod Ultimate stand to help me hear, but nothing else.

My reference to the Amps was only that it makes a difference on different floors and with wheels or rubber feet so with Basses it might make a difference as well what kind of Endpin you use.

I am wondering why they can't use the regular Endpin socket rather than drilling a second hole in the Block for the tilted unit. Also, how is it different to use a bent Endpin or just tilt the Bass with a regular Endpin. The entire Philly Orch and NY Phil in the sections use regular Endpins. I think I did see Hal Robinson do a solo one day and have a bent Endpin on that Bass but not on any of the Orchestral Basses I have seen.

[Brian Ross]

The Laborie endpin has a soft rubber ball on the end which grips very well. Its not prone to slippage anyway since the endpin comes out of the bass at an angle, so is pretty much perpendicular to the floor when you're playing.

[Brian Ross]

I am wondering why they can't use the regular Endpin socket rather than drilling a second hole in the Block for the tilted unit. Also, how is it different to use a bent Endpin or just tilt the Bass with a regular Endpin. The entire Philly Orch and NY Phil in the sections use regular Endpins. I think I did see Hal Robinson do a solo one day and have a bent Endpin on that Bass but not on any of the Orchestral Basses I have seen.

Not sure what you're envisioning with the endpin coming out of the regular socket. However, one argument against doing it that way is that not having the endpin in the socket that is in touch with the tailpiece-string assembly allows the bass to vibrate more freely

No doubt those of us using this type of endpin are a small minority, but we're a growing one! I bet you will see more and more players everywhere (including in major sections) using this type in the future.

[Ken Smith]

I have seen Viennese type Basses with a separate wood socket for the Tailwire close to the Top and the Endpin by the center. I haven't seen any vintage Basses of high value thus far with a second hole drilled towards the Back of the Bass for this bent thing. I would be worried about weakening the Bass at the block area myself.

I myself do a combination of sitting or standing depending on how I feel or what Bass I am using. Some Endpins have a round Rubber Ball at the end but on a wooden floor, they tend to slide a bit more than on carpet.

One one of my Basses in Restoration now I was trying to decide which Endpin type to use since I will only be up a few inches if that much. I was considering either a standard 3/8 steel pin unit or a wooden one and maybe make a few sizes for standing or sitting lengths if it mattered at all sound wise. I usually cut off most of the excess inside the Bass on both the Steel and Carbon Fiber Rods.

The Bass is a 7/8-4/4 size standing about 6ft5in (77") from the top saddle to the tip of the Scroll. After the Bass is shortened at the Block and Neck Graft is will be about 75" minimum. With the Endpin in all the way, you can add about 3 1/2" with the Endpin all the way in. This is one Bass I actually measured for an Endpin unit so that when I sit, the Back doesn't touch the floor. The Socket is about 1/2" or so forward of center so this was a concern as the Ribs are 8.5" inside the plates (over 9" with Top & Back). Tilting this Bass when I sit is of some concern since the 'Pin will be very low.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I only use about 6" of my endpin, with approx 3" sticking out of the bass. What effect, if any, would removing the excess have on the sound?

[Brian Ross]

I have seen Viennese type Basses with a separate wood socket for the Tailwire close to the Top and the Endpin by the center. I haven't seen any vintage Basses of high value thus far with a second hole drilled towards the Back of the Bass for this bent thing. I would be worried about weakening the Bass at the block area myself.



Both of Rabbath's Quenoils are drilled this way, as are all Paul Ellison's basses (Maggini, Quenoil, etc), Rufus Reid's bass... there are lots of old high value basses that have been set up this way. I've never heard of anyone having a problem with the block. I suppose that if the bass had a problem at the block to begin with there could trouble, or maybe on a cheaply made bass.

[Eric Hochberg]

Also, Glen Moore uses the Laborie pin in his big old bass, I believe it's a Klotz.

[Eric Hochberg]

I am wondering why they can't use the regular Endpin socket rather than drilling a second hole in the Block for the tilted unit. Also, how is it different to use a bent Endpin or just tilt the Bass with a regular Endpin.

You can use the regular pin socket to attach an egg pin which simulates the Laborie without the second hole. It's a fairly heavy device that goes on and off the bass for travel. Hans Sturm, who produced Rabbath's "Art of the Bow" video uses the egg pin with his older Italian bass as he didn't want to have a hole drilled in it. I used the egg pin to experiment with the angled pin concept before I had a hole drilled. I suppose you could also bend a pin to simulate the position of the laborie pin. Holding it firmly in the socket so it doesn't twist might be a challenge. I like the convenience of the Laborie pin. I don't think my basses sound different with it than with the egg pin.

I also used a 45º bent pin in my normal socket for a while. It changed the balance of the bass a bit, causing it to fall in towards my body at a more open angle, but didn't have the dramatic effect of the Laborie pin with the drilled hole.

I also want to point out that sound may differ as well regardless of the Endpin type or extension depending on the surface you are playing on.

Some years ago I was doing a recording session, jazz quartet, and the engineer just couldn't come up with a good bass sound, he must have spent an hour at this. He had me set up in a carpeted booth. I finally took the bass out of the room, played a few notes on a hardwood floor, and that was it. From that point on, I always ask for a piece of plywood to set the bass on if there is carpeting. The carpet seemed to suck up the percussive attack of the instrument. Hard surfaces seem to emphasize it, what I want in jazz playing, at least.

[Charles Federle]

One thing I forgot to mention is that when I tried the experiment with my friend's bass we tried the same thing with mine. For my bass it did not make as dramatic of a difference as his. Might of had to do with mine being shorter (only about 18 inches), hollow like the carbon fiber rod, and perhaps because it was much lighter then his.

I do think it is important though being able to stick the endpin into the floor. Granted some places more then others. One concert hall I play in they have boxes for each player, similar to that a cello soloist might use, even has a bass bar in the box right about where you would put your end pin. These boxes make a huge difference especially when playing on the extension.

[Ken Smith]

One thing I forgot to mention is that when I tried the experiment with my friend's bass we tried the same thing with mine. For my bass it did not make as dramatic of a difference as his. Might of had to do with mine being shorter (only about 18 inches), hollow like the carbon fiber rod, and perhaps because it was much lighter then his.

I do think it is important though being able to stick the endpin into the floor. Granted some places more then others. One concert hall I play in they have boxes for each player, similar to that a cello soloist might use, even has a bass bar in the box right about where you would put your end pin. These boxes make a huge difference especially when playing on the extension.

The Carbon Fiber Rods I have are all Solid. I have had Aluminum Rods Hollow that were painted Black but all the CF Rods I have seen are solid.

[Charles Federle]

The one we used was a bit of an odd ball. I think it came from Bob's house of bass. I remember it being hollow because we were so worried about crushing it with his thumbscrew, my current aluminum endpin though is hollow.

I am about to try a solid CF rod on my bass. Found just finding a piece of 10mm carbon fiber is much cheaper then something that is an endpin rod :) depending on the results I might try something wooden next. Any suggestions on what kind of wood might be the best ? Right now I am think either a strong maple or maybe lignum vitae (if I can find it).

[davidseidel]

Wondering as Ken asks what difference there may be between tilting the bass with a straight pin as compared to the Laborie angled one? Also with the new hardwood ones are they adjustable length? Could they be installed straight if one wanted to? Lots of questions as I have never tried an angled pin but interested in what its like and very interested in using a wooden one such as this either way. Also with the Laborie pin how does it work if one is sitting to play? I mostly stand out of choice myself but sometimes in orchestra work of course sitting may be the norm. drilling the block does seem a bit extreme especially in an old valuable instrument but if it works .......

[Ken Smith]

You are not just drilling the Block. You are putting a hole in the Rib as well!

On the restorations I have had recently, many of the Basses needed a new Block and these only had one hole in it. Out of 8 Basses opened up, 4 or 5 needed a new Block (I don't recall if the Gilkes was replaced or trimmed as it looks old (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/GilkesBass/restoration/IMG_1651.jpg) but not as old (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/GilkesBass/restoration/IMG_1650.jpg) as the neck block).

I can't imagine how a Block will last with two holes being drilled. I have only seen a few Basses with a separate Tailwire Socket and separate Endpin so I can't say for sure if this weakens the Block over time but using either Endpin over time is double duty on the Block itself.

[Eric Hochberg]

Wondering as Ken asks what difference there may be between tilting the bass with a straight pin as compared to the Laborie angled one? Also with the Laborie pin how does it work if one is sitting to play?


It's all about the balance. When I tilt my bass back on its straight endpin, it falls to the left if I don't hold it with my left hand. With the angled hole, the bass more or less stays back without falling. It takes some practice to find the balance point but when you do, you find you don't have to hold the instrument up with your hand, freeing it up.

When sitting, I don't know how critical the angled hole is as I can position the bass in a more open cello-like position with the normal endpin. You would probably need a shorter Laborie pin for sitting depending upon the height of the stool.

[Ken Smith]

What are you guys playing that all of a sudden a regular endpin is not good enough 150 years after Dragonetti?

[Eric Hochberg]

What are you guys playing that all of a sudden a regular endpin is not good enough 150 years after Dragonetti?

For me, it's about trying to find away to play the bass with less physical stress as I've been dealing with a bout of RSIs in both arms, wrists and hands. The Laborie pin seems to be helping. If anyone is interested, I wrote a piece about my RSI experience on Jason Heath's wonderful bass blog, doublebassblog.com (http://www.doublebassblog.org/search/label/jazz%20bass%20playing).

[Nick Hart]

On the idea of endpins, In CCM this year Mr. Laszlo imported some titanium endpins and these things sounded amazing. It seemed that for the people with play with short endpins, the sound increased drastically, for somebody like me who is 6'2" with a big bass that needs to be elevated, it helped but wasn't worth the $160 dollars. These titanium endpins really did wonders for some basses, especially those in the 20k price range. Made them sound older and a much more rich and bassy sound. It is something to check out for all those looking for an endpin change.

[Charles Federle]

Titanium is something I have wanted to try for a long time, but have never been able to get ahold of. Is there any contact information for anyone wanting to try them ?

[Brian Ross]

What are you guys playing that all of a sudden a regular endpin is not good enough 150 years after Dragonetti?

Are you serious? Many many things are different about the equipment we use now and what dragonetti used. Steel strings, modern bows, functional tuning machines, 4 strings, 5 strings...

Just because a straight end pin is the way it was done then doesn't make it the best way!

[Ken Smith]

Are you serious? Many many things are different about the equipment we use now and what dragonetti used. Steel strings, modern bows, functional tuning machines, 4 strings, 5 strings...

Just because a straight end pin is the way it was done then doesn't make it the best way!

Ok, I agree with you on the 'since then' thing to a degree but lets look at a few things closer. Since then, these things have been developed and became the standard with little change insight;

4-strings tuned in fourths standardized mainly by W.Hause, the first method for Bass (Prague School (http://hometown.aol.com/scrtchbox/Basstree.html), Wenzel Hause, Josef Hrabe, Anton Slama, Emanuel Storch, Franz Simandl, etc). The fourths were in use in London but with 3-strings while France was using 5ths with 3-strings but poorly. Visiting German Orchestras to London changed their fate as did London Orchestras later playing in France.

Steel Strings, Orchestra Tuning.

Solo rep required for every Orchestra Bassist

Straight Steel Rod Endpin and now some CF

Adjustable Bridge feet used by many in USA but not all and rarely in Europe as it is needed less.

Mixed fingerings and Pivots as well as using the 3rd finger in the first 6 positions.

Tuning Machines have been around over 200 years in good working order. I saw a Ceruti Bass recently with it's original Gears (c.1800 or earlier).. Never broke, never replaced!

4-string Basses were used in the Prague School almost from the beginning and 5s in the late 18th century. I think it was the 19th century where the 3-string was strong in Italy, France and the UK. We rarely see any Germanic type Basses made for domestic use made originally in 3-strings. I think 19th century USA was mixed as well between imports and Yankee made Basses.

Low C-Extensions replacing 5s in mainly USA but other places as well. Some players just play the Lows up and octave no matter what. 5s are in use sparsely in USA but very common as needed in Central Europe and fairly common in other parts of the world including Japan and Australia.

Now... If you are talking about Solo playing, YES, there is a whole bunch of new things brewing like those from Rabbath and others. My main topic is for standard BASS playing either in Jazz or in Orchestra.

One time a person came in with a nice old Germanic Bass and handed it to me to try right after putting the bent Endpin in. I couldn't even find a way to comfortably hold it much less play it.

Maybe it's the case of 'old dog, new trick' kinda thing..:confused:

[David Powell]

Well, I haven't done much experimenting with different types of endpins. I'm still trying to figure out where I want the thing let out to (solid steel pin currently). I'm at least down to about an inch of length between two detente positions and I go back and forth with that. My right hand likes one position and my left the other. I think if I always played arco, it would stay in one place and if I always played pizz it would be in the other. So maybe I should just get a custom pin made that splits the difference?

I do think KC strings reported some block problems with the Laborie style pin on a TB thread. As far as the separated attachment of the tail gut and pin, the first bass I saw this on was a very innovative bass that I thought was made by a maker named Hamm. But now I can find nothing on the web about that bass. I think I might have some photos on my old PC, but anyway the pin and tail gut were among a few other things done differently. The neck angle was adjustable. Does anyone remember that DB? It was kind of angular at the scroll, had unusual sort of art deco looking f's. I want to say the maker was Charles Hamm, but Google shows nothing. Anyway it is interesting to learn that this is not a new idea, seaparating the endpin hole from the tailgut stay.

The wooden pin idea sounds interesting to me, but when we get to a rubber foot, I kind of wonder if any differences are going to go beyond that piece of rubber. I use soft rubber shock mounts for microphones and these are very effective dampers of sound transmission. Practical experience respected, I don't see how the pin material could do much to increase transmission of the sound to the floor if there is a rubber tip on it. The most experienced band leader I work with isolates almost all of the amps and cabinets with soft rubber pads like those that one would find in a high foot traffic area. He claims that everything (cabinets and electronics racks) benefits from isolation. It is obvious why microphones need this, but perhaps other components benefit as well?

As far as flooring, I have noticed that carpet just kills sound in general, although I don't know about the casters vs. rubber feet phenomenon because I have just not tried a cabinet both ways.

[Ken Smith]

So Steel Rods, CF Rods and Wood Endpins will all have the same sound is the same rubber tip is used?

Maybe someone could record the frequency off the Rod between the socket and the Tip and see what the differences are sing the exact same Bass is anyone here can do that.

David, with your 2-height needs for Pizz and Bowing I would pull it out to the tallest size you would ever use sitting or standing, leave enough length to just clear the socket internally and cut off the rest of the excess Rod length. The Bass is heavy enough as it is..

[Brian Ross]

I do think KC strings reported some block problems with the Laborie style pin on a TB thread. As far as the separated attachment of the tail gut and pin, the first bass I saw this on was a very innovative bass that I thought was made by a maker named Hamm. But now I can find nothing on the web about that bass. I think I might have some photos on my old PC, but anyway the pin and tail gut were among a few other things done differently. The neck angle was adjustable. Does anyone remember that DB? It was kind of angular at the scroll, had unusual sort of art deco looking f's. I want to say the maker was Charles Hamm, but Google shows nothing. Anyway it is interesting to learn that this is not a new idea, seaparating the endpin hole from the tailgut stay.

The wooden pin idea sounds interesting to me, but when we get to a rubber foot, I kind of wonder if any differences are going to go beyond that piece of rubber. I use soft rubber shock mounts for microphones and these are very effective dampers of sound transmission. Practical experience respected, I don't see how the pin material could do much to increase transmission of the sound to the floor if there is a rubber tip on it.

I saw that about the Laborie endpin on TB as well, but they didn't give any examples of it actually happening, just said that it was possible on cheaply made basses.

That luthier's name is James Hamm - he made the bass that Karr played for several years (although I understand not any more). His basses are very interesting.

As for the rubber on the floor issue, I have no idea why but I can definitely hear the difference between the carbon fiber end pin and the wooden one even though both have rubber balls on the end. I was shocked at the difference when I first heard it.

[Ken Smith]

As for the rubber on the floor issue, I have no idea why but I can definitely hear the difference between the carbon fiber end pin and the wooden one even though both have rubber balls on the end. I was shocked at the difference when I first heard it.

Ok, please explain what this shock was all about. Details would be nice..

[Brian Ross]

I guess I was skeptical that there would really be a noticable difference in sound between the two types of endpin. When I first compared them I was really amazed at how much more resonant and full sounding the bass was with the wooden endpin compared to the carbon fiber.

So, I'll sum it up as: The shock was a) at how different the two sound were and b) that I was wrong:) .

[Charles Federle]

Actually it is Jim (James) Ham. Of his basses that I have played (at least half dozen or so) I don't thin any of them had the tail gut around anything other then the endpin. The picture in his catalogue doesn't. Nevertheless great basses especially for a soloists. The endpin for his basses is a bit unique as well though, they are similar to a keyless chuck for a drill.

[Matthew Tucker]

On a Laborie bass, I have seen an 8mm steel pin driven into the TOP of the block (ie, through the top plate) with indents in the back of the pin. The tailgut hooks directly through that combination of saddle and tailgut-anchor, allowing height adjustment. the tailgut never even saw the endpin!

Regarding rubber tips - as far as i can see there are several things that can happen. Either you couple your bass to the floor with a spike and hope to transmit vibrations to that, and in some cases this will appear to amplify or at least spread your sound around a bit through the larger diaphragm. But the coupling to the floor will also dampen the vibration a bit. I think a light, rigid coupling like a CF endpin would increase the effect. I can see how these effects might be an advantage for arco.

Otherwise, using a soft rubber tip and/or flexible coupling (wooden pin?) would serve to isolate the bass from the floor, theoretically allowing for maximum body vibration and longest sustain, and possibly more focussed effect for the player. I would imagine this would give a greater effect for pizz.

Anyway, this is what I have observed myself, but I'm just one player and one (no, two) basses.

All the above effects are substantially modified depending on floor surface, which also changes the perception of the sound to the player due to different reflection characteristics. Some shops have a carpet floor and others have boards. Which is better? Is this like selling wine with cheese?

[David Powell]

David, with your 2-height needs for Pizz and Bowing I would pull it out to the tallest size you would ever use sitting or standing, leave enough length to just clear the socket internally and cut off the rest of the excess Rod length. The Bass is heavy enough as it is.. For arco I need it higher and I think that is where it is going to stay. I've been playing more and more arco, even on the jazz standards so I'm getting used to the higher position for pizz also. You are right about the heavy factor of my bass. It weighs 31+ pounds! Fortunately I don't have to strap it over my shoulder and I have some wheels for carting it further than from house to car. I could cut a good bit off it and still have plenty of pin. I might just try one of the wooden ones to see how it works. I'm not a Laborie fan even though I'm using the Rabbath method. I played on a bass with one and it is not for me, and I do think it is not good to have that arrangement in a vertical standing position. It does seem to me that the block is bearing a torque in that case and the blocks generally have trouble holding a normal pin straight. I could see using a Laborie for playing sitting.

Oh, and thanks for the correct "Hamm" It was the bass for Karr that had a different anchor for the tailgut. I remember that pretty specifically unless I am completely hallucinating;- which would be rare.

Brian, I'll take your word for it that it makes a big difference between the wood and CF. There are many things that make a difference that are not intuitive. Is the rubber tip hard rubber or pretty soft? The tip on mine is sort of medium hard. I kind of liked what the KC strings fellows were doing, but it is really a kind of combination wood and CF pin. Probably a bit different from a solid wooden pin.

[Bob Branstetter]

As far as the separated attachment of the tail gut and pin, the first bass I saw this on was a very innovative bass that I thought was made by a maker named Hamm. But now I can find nothing on the web about that bass. I think I might have some photos on my old PC, but anyway the pin and tail gut were among a few other things done differently.Back around the 1960s, before they were taken over by a conglomerate, Scherl & Roth made basses with a separate knob that the tail gut attached to in addition to the standard adjustable endpin. I've had others come in my shop over the years, but I don't remember the names of the makers or brand names other than S&R.

[Brian Ross]

Brian, I'll take your word for it that it makes a big difference between the wood and CF. There are many things that make a difference that are not intuitive. Is the rubber tip hard rubber or pretty soft? The tip on mine is sort of medium hard. I kind of liked what the KC strings fellows were doing, but it is really a kind of combination wood and CF pin. Probably a bit different from a solid wooden pin.

The rubber ball is quite soft. Laborie used to use harder rubber but it tended to slip on some smooth surfaces. The soft rubber never slips.

[Ken Smith]

I tested a loose fitted KC endpin on my Hart 2 weeks ago and now I have the real thing. I had it bored for 1/2" CF which I have a cut-off from my CF endpin to glue in myself.

I tested this one (Wood pin with carbon fiber rod) on both my Gilkes and Hart Bass. The CF endpin I use is also cut short to just clear the block inside. This was by the way 1/2 the weight of the KC unit I just got. Sound difference on carpet, slightly deeper only and no noticeable difference in volume.

I bought a second one for my Martini which has a steel rod. I also have the Rod cut short. Comparing the weight between the KC and the shorter Steel rod I have is .8 ounces difference with the Steel slightly heavier.

Sound difference on the Martini? Slightly deeper on the carpet and again not much if any Volume difference.

These are 3 great master grade basses that are tweaked to the hilt already. Not much room for improvement but this new endpin idea still made all of my Basses sound slightly fuller and deeper.

One one Bass we did test 2 weeks ago, a Germanic 100 year old Bass with a long metal steel rod. This Bass had a noticeable improvement with the KC unit on a hard floor.

Conclusion! On master grade old Basses in their best condition, there is still some room for a tweak here and there. On other Basses from good to not so good, more room for improvements are always there. If you have an Endpin sticking past the Block inside your Bass after the height is adjusted, measure the overhang and cut off the excess. This is 'dead' tone sucking weight.

Bravo to KC for a great new product with custom service and fast turn around... I tip my hat!

[Calvin Marks]

http://www.n-pin.com/

These end pins are incredible. They're ridiculously light, and you'll never have to sharpen the tip. My teacher uses one on his Panormo.

[Eric Swanson]

Those look really nice...thanks for sharing that link. Looks like the only thing to avoid would be hitting the endpin tip or standing the bass on something really hard (like a music stand base or concrete, if playing outdoors). Carbide is so brittle. Seems like it would last a long, long time if just used on wood floors...

[Calvin Marks]

Hey guys.

ONYX Musical Products just came out with an all rosewood or ebony end-pin system, meaning the rod and plug are all rosewood or ebony. I saw one of these recently on a bass in a shop in Toronto, they look, sound and work GREAT.

http://shop5.mailordercentral.com/lemurmusic/ALL-NEW-UPRIGHT-BASS-PRODUCTS/products/318/

[Ken Smith]

Hey guys.

ONYX Musical Products just came out with an all rosewood or ebony end-pin system, meaning the rod and plug are all rosewood or ebony. I saw one of these recently on a bass in a shop in Toronto, they look, sound and work GREAT.

http://shop5.mailordercentral.com/lemurmusic/ALL-NEW-UPRIGHT-BASS-PRODUCTS/products/318/

I had an Ebony Endpin and Socket on my Italian Bass in 1973. I sold it 20 years later with the same unit in it. I don't remember the name of the unit, just the Material. It went into restoration needing both the unit and a Tailpiece. The restorer Peter Eibert put the unit in along with a Hill style (or Hill) Rosewood TP. It too stayed with the bass all 20 years as well. One sound post, one bridge, 19th century tuners, etc. The only thing I changed in 20 years with that bass were the strings a few times.. lol

This brought back some memories. Sorry to slide off topic..

[Pino Cazzaniga]

I saw some Rubner and some Pollmann instruments with two holes in the block, one for the end button and one for the endpin. I don't like it so much, but it make easier to look at the soundpost fit when the basses are strung.
About bent endpins I have no experience, as none of my clients use them.
I made some "all wood" stuff . The button has a conical hole in which a shaft ( also conical at the upper part ) is fit. At the tip of the shaft a screw is sharpened for wooden floors. The hole need to be waxed to take the shaft off. For different heights it need different shafts, plus one, very short, to transport. It seem to work with sound, mostly with readyness, even with rubber, but it may be a little romantic feeling, it's hard to say...

[Calvin Marks]

I saw some Rubner and some Pollmann instruments with two holes in the block, one for the end button and one for the endpin. I don't like it so much, but it make easier to look at the soundpost fit when the basses are strung.
About bent endpins I have no experience, as none of my clients use them.
I made some "all wood" stuff . The button has a conical hole in which a shaft ( also conical at the upper part ) is fit. At the tip of the shaft a screw is sharpened for wooden floors. The hole need to be waxed to take the shaft off. For different heights it need different shafts, plus one, very short, to transport. It seem to work with sound, mostly with readyness, even with rubber, but it may be a little romantic feeling, it's hard to say...

I assume that by having the tailpiece tied to the end-button instead of the end-pin it would reduce the tension of the tailpiece on the body. Perhaps this would work for an old, fragile instrument that's very thinly built...In my experience Pollman's are built like a TANK, so I don't know why two holes are necessary.

[Ken Smith]

I assume that by having the tailpiece tied to the end-button instead of the end-pin it would reduce the tension of the tailpiece on the body. Perhaps this would work for an old, fragile instrument that's very thinly built...In my experience Pollman's are built like a TANK, so I don't know why two holes are necessary.

Ask Pollmann why. I have seen this on many of their Basses and think it's a nice idea. I have seen it on some older Viennese Basses as well.

[Mike Mandelas]

I have tried all alternatives in my three basses. In wooden floors the KC endpin (carbon rod with wooden pin) works better in all of them. The CF rod i bought from Upton makes also an improvement in wooden floors but in concrete (tiles, marble etc) the effect is not so strong. "Better" means louder, warmer and IMHO more fundamentals.

However, following some of master Arnold's observations, i managed to optimise the sound of two "dark" basses with metal rods in ebony endpins housings (cut in the needed length). In those basses the wooden pins didn't make any difference. Now i'm working in a German hybrid which has a"choked"
sound. The CF by Upton seems to be the best solution so far but i have to record the change each time in order to arrive in proper conclusions.

[Ken Smith]

I don't know where Arnold and Jeff gets theirs (the same one) but it's about the best I have seen anywhere. Arnold? Does it have a name?

Anyway, my current main Bass is kinda huge so I have it all the way in or an inch out at most for the spike for sitting. I did one orchestra concert standing and it was difficult to find a height I liked for both the left or right hand combined. Sitting seems to make the difference. Most or my endpin in in the bass, not sticking out. I have cut one of them already and may cut this one as well. If I lean the bass back further I can raise the 'pin up a bit but then the angle of my bow arm is increased and I don't like that at all. The straighter the better for me.

[Matthew Tucker]

Hey guys.

ONYX Musical Products just came out with an all rosewood or ebony end-pin system, meaning the rod and plug are all rosewood or ebony. I saw one of these recently on a bass in a shop in Toronto, they look, sound and work GREAT.

http://shop5.mailordercentral.com/lemurmusic/ALL-NEW-UPRIGHT-BASS-PRODUCTS/products/318/

The onyx pin is built solidly but in my experience with the older style onxy the rubber tip tends to unscrew and rattle when playing. rubber a bit too soft. Also, the adjuster is a knurled knob and hard to relly tighten if you need it. tends to unscrew too. I don't know about the new onyx shown.

[Calvin Marks]

I have tried all alternatives in my three basses. In wooden floors the KC endpin (carbon rod with wooden pin) works better in all of them. The CF rod i bought from Upton makes also an improvement in wooden floors but in concrete (tiles, marble etc) the effect is not so strong. "Better" means louder, warmer and IMHO more fundamentals.

However, following some of master Arnold's observations, i managed to optimise the sound of two "dark" basses with metal rods in ebony endpins housings (cut in the needed length). In those basses the wooden pins didn't make any difference. Now i'm working in a German hybrid which has a"choked"
sound. The CF by Upton seems to be the best solution so far but i have to record the change each time in order to arrive in proper conclusions.

This is what I use:

http://www.n-pin.com

Finest end-pin in the market, the carbon fibre rod weighs around 30 grams.

[Joel Larsson]

Cello N-PIN: $219.87 for full unit
Bass N-PIN: $208.44 for full unit
At last something that's cheaper for bass! I like this company. :)

[Calvin Marks]

At last something that's cheaper for bass! I like this company. :)

The maker was a professional bassist and a trained machinist.

You don't have to worry about stripping the screw since it has a bike-clamp mechanism. Also the carbide tip never wears down and it works on almost every surface, very stable!

[Robert Anzellotti]

...I am wondering why they can't use the regular Endpin socket rather than drilling a second hole in the Block for the tilted unit. Also, how is it different to use a bent Endpin or just tilt the Bass with a regular Endpin. ...

Are you referring to the Laborie? And are you suggesting that the through-hole in the socket could be angled? I have not only pondered this, but done it. The through-hole is always straight simply because it's way easier to manufacture a socket this way. Making it angled not only complicates production, but the amount of angle is limited by the bore and height of the bottom block, and the diameter of the socket. I made some extra wide sockets for my basses and drilled the holes at an angle, but was only able to achieve about 10°. I think a typical Laborie installation is 30° or more.

Still, I find that even the modestly angled pin was worth doing. Besides the effect on playability of moving the center of gravity rearwards (which I find quite positive), my reason for doing it was to reduce skating. I don't know why, but I cannot use a rubber tip when sitting. Unless I have my sharp point deeply embedded in the floor, or have a belt connecting my pin to my stool, I will chase the bass all the way up to the conductor before the first break. Having an angled pin greatly reduces this tendancy.

Also, you reduce the active length of the endpin, which is especially beneficial for tall players. Having 15" of pin sticking out in front of you is bad for several reasons, stress on the bottom block being a big one. Cellists have adopted the "angle" in large numbers. I think they know something. Since most bassists don't extend their endpins very far, it is a lesser issue for us, but I think not insignificant.

So far, the choices are to either bore a second hole (Laborie), schlepp some heavy hardware - which looks like it came from a suspension bridge - (Eggpin), or use a bent pin which destroys the collar/setscrew. I never tried to market my angled socket because I decided players wouldn't accept the fatness or reduced angle. I think angled pins are a good idea, but a good design has yet to be offered.

[Eric Hochberg]

I'm thinking about replacing my endpin and would like to know which you prefer. I've looked at the KCStrings, Onyx, Ulsa on the web. Any others?