Endpin fill and re-drill/ream

[Jeff Moote]

My endpin hole is reamed slightly crooked (and has been as long as I've owned this instrument) and while it hasn't posed a structural problem I'm going to get it fixed since I'm replacing the endpin anyway - hopefully the better fit does something to help the sound, but even if not I can't imagine it having a negative effect.

What I'd like to know is from the luthiers here or from those who've had this done, how long should this take/how big is the job? I don't have a long relationship with the luthier who will be doing the work so I just want to make sure they don't overcharge for the job, etc.

Thanks :)

[Phil Maneri]

Most luthiers I know have a hard time charging enough. There are only a small few that will have a propensity for ripping you off and I think they are hard to find.

Considering the risk, expense of tools, and time to aquire skills I amazed at how low the prices really are. They are valued less than many other professions that require much less talent, dedication and tooling.

Shop for a luthier with experience, talent, training, and good reputation and pay them what they ask.

Having said that your question is really "how do I find a luthier I can trust". Answer is the same way you find a lawyer, accountant, mechanic, plumber, electrician etc. Ask questions about the luthiers near you. Look to those players that have used them before. Find a luthier that the majority of the responses you get are positive and try them out.

What you want is not a high dollar or time required job and a good one to test the waters with.

I think all players should eventually establish relationships with luthiers they trust so as to not have to worry about that part of the playing equation. It's too much work to play the DB already, no need to add more complication to it.

[Ken Smith]

Most luthiers I know have a hard time charging enough. There are only a small few that will have a propensity for ripping you off and I think they are hard to find.

Considering the risk, expense of tools, and time to aquire skills I amazed at how low the prices really are. They are valued less than many other professions that require much less talent, dedication and tooling.

Shop for a luthier with experience, talent, training, and good reputation and pay them what they ask.

Having said that your question is really "how do I find a luthier I can trust". Answer is the same way you find a lawyer, accountant, mechanic, plumber, electrician etc. Ask questions about the luthiers near you. Look to those players that have used them before. Find a luthier that the majority of the responses you get are positive and try them out.

What you want is not a high dollar or time required job and a good one to test the waters with.

I think all players should eventually establish relationships with luthiers they trust so as to not have to worry about that part of the playing equation. It's too much work to play the DB already, no need to add more complication to it.

Phil, sorry but I must disagree slightly here. Most of the professions you have listed requires standard training in their field and most with a schooled Degree. Bass Repair has not yet reached that level across the board.

Many of the better Bass Luthiers are self taught or trained in another Shop before starting their business and not at a commercial trade school. Price-wise you also have to look at the quality of the job done. How many times do Basses get re-done because the previous Luther did a poor job? Then it costs at least 2x to correct and do it right so the 1st guy did charge too much because his job had to be un-done and then re-done. Sometimes the Bass sustains permanent damage and valuation loss as well.

For the question at hand I would post the first question; How much off center is the Endpin now and how and why do you think the tone is suffering?

The Endpin Block is drilled all the way into the Bass. Also, over time the hole may not be a perfect taper from end to end. Fitting a tight plug end to end and the exact length (not too short or too long) is very difficult to do with the Top on unless tools are used thru the FFs to mark and trim after knocking it snug and them pushing it out to trim and then re-inserting in hope that it will be a good fit when in actually, you are working partially blind.

I have never done this job myself but have seen many Basses opened up. I would never imagine you could do a good permanent job from the outside that would satisfy my eye as far as good luthier work. When the hole is re-drilled/bushed for the Endpin socket, Much of the new wood plug will be cut away. if the fit was not good on the repair, the thinner areas of the Plug left in-place may not be well glued or have a tight fit.

I now yield to the gentleman from New York, namely Arnold and Jeff whose advice I would take to the bank with two blind eyes!

To have your questions answered better by Pros in this field here, it would be to your benefit to post several detailed pictures so it can be better judged.

[Brian Glassman]

While we're on this subject of endpin holes;

The endpin hole on my old Prescott (1820's) bass is not centered in the ribs between the top and back. It is closer to the top. The ribs on this bass are very deep so eventhough the endpin is placed only about 40% from the top to the back (instead of 50% dead center) the distance from the center of the endpin hole to the top is probably similar to most basses. I've never taken any measurements to compare that distance to my other basses. It seems as though the instrument was made this way for there are no signs of plugging the hole although there are some strips of wide linings along the rib seams at the very bottom that could be hiding the old hole, but they seem very old and to my eye are original to the construction of the bass.

Theoretically does this make much of a difference for sound and playability? This bass's playability and sound has always been great even w/ it's less than perfect neck alignment and even when the sound post has been out of position or loose so I'm not inclined to do anything about this, but I'm curious.

I would think that if the tailpiece wire were too short because of this that it may negatively affect the instrument, but if it is of average length from endpin to saddle and/or total length from endpin to tailpiece, would this off center position make any difference?

I'll try to post pics and measurements of this when I get a chance.

You can see the bass here: http://www.thetalkbasses.com/

THANKS for any opinions.

BG

[Ken Smith]

The Endpin on my Mystery Bass (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/MysteryBass/name_that_bass.htm) is slightly forward as well. I don't know why they did this but it IS the original hole from about 200 years ago if not more. Here are some pre-restoration pics to have a look at it. Your comments are welcome of course. I have even considered putting a Viennese type Plug for the Tail Wire and placing the Endpin unit behind it so that when I tilt it back when sitting and playing low, the Back doesn't drag on the floor.

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/MysteryBass/100_0070.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/MysteryBass/100_0067.jpg

The original Tailblock which is tiny by comparison (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/MysteryBass/repair3.jpg) is still in the Bass as the restoration is in the homestretch after 3 years of anticipation. The Ribs are proudly 8.5" wide inside the Top and Back to give you some scale at what you are looking at. I can't wait to hear how she sounds. It was not playable when I bought it but the wood just looks delicious. I hope it sounds as good as it tastes..lol

Maybe, just maybe, the off center front to back placement of the Endpin hole has something to do with the Balance of the Bass as decided by the maker or maybe even the player and his needs when the Basses were made way back when..?

[Bob Branstetter]

What I'd like to know is from the luthiers here or from those who've had this done, how long should this take/how big is the job? I don't have a long relationship with the luthier who will be doing the work so I just want to make sure they don't overcharge for the job, etc.

Thanks :)I can't give you any exact times on this type of repair, but it is time consuming. We usually begin by enlarging the existing hole slightly with a special reamer to insure that the hole is round and correctly tapered. There are no off the shelf parts available, so the luthier has to turn a plug on a lathe to match the size, length and taper of the hole in the bottom block. Once he has a good fit, it must be glued and left to dry (usually over night). Once dry, a large diameter hole is drilled in the plug. The hole must be drilled very carefully to insure that it is properly aligned in all directions. Next, you must ream out the hole with a reamer to match the size and taper of the endpin socket. This can sometimes be a problem since endpin sockets are notorious for being made with non-standard tapers. If this is the case, the endpin must be disassembled and the endpin socket must be turned on a lathe to make it a taper that matches the taper of the reamer.

As you can see, there are many variables that can influence the amount of time required for the job. Most experienced luthiers are honest. However, if one is not, the word gets around pretty quickly. Ask other players about their experience with this particular luthier or take your instrument to other luthiers in your area and ask for estimates before you have the repairs done on your bass.

[Jeff Moote]

Thanks Bob and Ken for your insights into the job. Hopefully Arnold and Jeff will pop in at some point.

Ken, I think I may not have been clear on exactly what the problem is - it's not the location of the hole but the angle it's at such that the base of the socket does not fit flush with the bass. If you already understood that, sorry for repeating myself. I don't know for sure it's affecting the tone (in fact, it's probably not) but it's one of those things that seems like it should be fixed, no? My biggest problem is that the pin comes out at this angle making the bass balance funny at times.

One point of interest re: Bob's explanation of the procedure - my new pin has an aluminum socket, so that's not going to be one of the things adjusted. It does have a 17:1 taper which I understand is fairly standard(?)


I'm taking it to the luthier tomorrow, so we'll have a discussion about it then and see what he thinks. I do trust him as he's been doing honest business here for many years, but I just wanted to be careful since I've not worked with him before. The thing is there aren't a lot of alternatives around here - it basically means a trip to Toronto, where I know of some trusted names (so actually 2 round trips since I'd have to leave the instrument). I don't know a lot of players around here to ask about their experiences since I'm fairly new to this scene though I planned to ask my teacher when I talked to him next.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

The Endpin on my Mystery Bass (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/MysteryBass/name_that_bass.htm) is slightly forward as well. I don't know why they did this but it IS the original hole from about 200 years ago if not more.
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/MysteryBass/100_0070.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/MysteryBass/100_0067.jpg


Maybe, just maybe, the off center front to back placement of the Endpin hole has something to do with the Balance of the Bass as decided by the maker or maybe even the player and his needs when the Basses were made way back when..?

I've seen a few like this. The hole was always toward the bass top, never the back. I surmise that the top has been off many times and with all the re-fitting the ribs got narrower. So now the hole is off-center.

Jeff B. once told me about putting the endpin slightly off center, I think. It had to do with balance, but if I recall correctly (which is doubtful at my level of mental decomposition) he said it was toward the back.

[Ken Smith]

I have seen many an Endpin unit socket shimmed with anything from wood to cork to sandpaper to make it fit better. The angle of the hole may be just fine. Your problem might be the difference between the taper of the hole and the unit itself. The string tension will naturally pull it forward and make it appear to be at an angle. I would guess that a slight re-fit/shim of the socket or bore itself would be the best way to go but I am just guessing blind. Pictures maybe? We are shooting in the dark here.

[Jeff Moote]

I have seen many an Endpin unit socket shimmed with anything from wood to cork to sandpaper to make it fit better. The angle of the hole may be just fine. Your problem might be the difference between the taper of the hole and the unit itself. The string tension will naturally pull it forward and make it appear to be at an angle. I would guess that a slight re-fit/shim of the socket or bore itself would be the best way to go but I am just guessing blind. Pictures maybe? We are shooting in the dark here.Good idea - see pics below. My new pin (www.n-pin.com (http://www.n-pin.com)) is shown there too.

I don't think it's string tension pulling it since the angle is to one side (how odd!). It could be a matter of mismatched taper or some sort of shim, but I've pulled it out in the past and it didn't seem unusual - just not straight.

(click photos for larger)
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w8/jeffmoote/Endpin/endpin-3.jpg (http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w8/jeffmoote/Endpin/P1010001.jpg)

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w8/jeffmoote/Endpin/endpin-2.jpg (http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w8/jeffmoote/Endpin/P1010003.jpg)

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w8/jeffmoote/Endpin/endpin-1.jpg (http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w8/jeffmoote/Endpin/P1010002.jpg)

[Jeff Moote]

Just after taking those pictures I took the old endpin assembly out to find that it is considerably smaller than its replacement. Can the new hole be reamed straight without plugging the existing hole?

[Ken Smith]

Just after taking those pictures I took the old endpin assembly out to find that it is considerably smaller than its replacement. Can the new hole be reamed straight without plugging the existing hole?

I would think so. It's done by hand so the Luthier has control of the tool. But this is providing there is enough room to fit the new within the old!

[Jeff Moote]

Well, I should be able to tell you tomorrow what we end up doing.

[Ken McKay]

Here is a tip for reaming a straight endpin. Put a looooong handle on the reamer like this http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/FieldTrips/HK/hk.html

[Jeff Moote]

I got the bass back from my luthier today. He did a fine job, and was simply able to make the hole inside the old one and straight, as the N-PIN fixture is much larger. He charged for 2h45 which I think is fair.

:)

By the way, in case anyone is in the Kitchener/Waterloo or Stratford, ON area and needs any work done I wouldn't hesitate to go to Henry Riedstra, who did this work for me.