The art of bowing.

[Richard Prowse]

I'd love to hear (read) your thoughts about bowing and articulation.

[Jeff Moote]

That's a bit open ended, no? What are we supposed to write about?

[Ken Smith]

I'd love to hear (read) your thoughts about bowing and articulation.

There are a few schools of drawing the Bow that I am personally aware of. One is the heavy strong attack on each note. Another is a smooth execution where you do not hear the attack. A third is where it draws softly at the start and quickly swells to the desired tone.

I have used all three mentioned as needed. The first and last style should be used as needed for the music. The middle one where you have control of the note from the start should be the normal way to bow. This I find the hardest to maintain as it requires great practice as well as a Bass (with good bowing strings) that responds well to your Bow. Also, the quality of your Bow will greatly aide in this approach.

[Richard Prowse]

There are a few schools of drawing the Bow that I am personally aware of. One is the heavy strong attack on each note. Another is a smooth execution where you do not hear the attack. A third is where it draws softly at the start and quickly swells to the desired tone.

I have used all three mentioned as needed. The first and last style should be used as needed for the music. The middle one where you have control of the note from the start should be the normal way to bow. This I find the hardest to maintain as it requires great practice as well as a Bass (with good bowing strings) that responds well to your Bow. Also, the quality of your Bow will greatly aide in this approach.
Gary Karr says to bow slowly and near the bridge. He talks about the 'sizzle' you get down there. It certainly gives a great sound.
Here's an interesting one about articulation, if you have a bit of time:
Take the 'B section tune' of Take Five and transpose it (Take 5) to the key of G minor. Play it in thumb position, starting on '12th fret' G - thumb... it sits comfortably here and it is easy to play the notes.
How are you going to bow it?

[Richard Prowse]

I start on a down bow and play all notes on separate bows until I get to the two Fs in bar 4 (just before the tune starts to repeat). I play both of these Fs with a down bow and then carry on with separate bows... this is not ideal, but seems to work. I've tried lots of different bowing patterns.
ps. the two Fs are the 29th & 30th notes in the B section tune (sing it in your head and you'll find them).

[Johnny Layton]

The more experience I get with bowing, the less I think about it and just let things flow naturally...how I would want to sing it. But I do remember my first days very well struggling with the most basic bowing patterns and looking with awe at all the high school and college kids who could spiccato so well.

I play German bow and don't do so well with French (though I do have a couple of French bows to play with). One of the first things I worked on was getting my wrist to loosen up while my thumb rested on the stick. At first, I had to hold the bow "Streicher" style but after a while I could do it.

I still feel I have a lot to learn but I'm glad I've made it as far as I have too.

[David Powell]

I've tried a few times to bow the head of "Take Five". That one is still a bit beyond me in Eb. I might try it transposed.

I am doing the whole head of "Footprints" bowed and I worked really hard getting a good sequence for the strokes. I am cheating a bit on the positions, compared to how Stanley Clarke plays it. I play the whole thing above the heel and use the open G string for the pick-up note or drop that note an octave to the BB string up at the heel. For the melody I use mostly the same position and the open D and G. I'm hanging at the 5-Spot now without my bass so I couldn't tell you what the strokes are, but they work.

I don't play too close to the bridge unless I am above the octave in the upper range of thumb position. In first position, I bow closer to the FB. It really just depends on the position for me. The lower the position, the closer to the FB usually.

I use the black hair also, which seems to be far more sensitive to where you bow the string. It's more challenging, but when you get it right, it is so different from the white hair. To my ear it is better, but the articulation has to be perfect or it will scratch or squeak.

One question I have is about pulling with the fingers and hand (German bow) as well as wrist before engaging the whole arm? It's totally a German bow thing, but I wonder who else uses this attack? This seems to give me more control on the attack, but I have to really "think it" into motion. It's more work than just sawing away at it.

[Jeff Moote]

There are a few schools of drawing the Bow that I am personally aware of. One is the heavy strong attack on each note. Another is a smooth execution where you do not hear the attack. A third is where it draws softly at the start and quickly swells to the desired tone.

I have used all three mentioned as needed. The first and last style should be used as needed for the music. The middle one where you have control of the note from the start should be the normal way to bow. This I find the hardest to maintain as it requires great practice as well as a Bass (with good bowing strings) that responds well to your Bow. Also, the quality of your Bow will greatly aide in this approach.I'm with Ken. A clean and even stroke from frog to tip in both directions should be the default. Any articulation and dynamic should be only when called for in the music. I thought this is how everyone was taught? Maybe I just have good teachers?

I use the black hair also, which seems to be far more sensitive to where you bow the string. It's more challenging, but when you get it right, it is so different from the white hair. To my ear it is better, but the articulation has to be perfect or it will scratch or squeak.I don't think this is really a black hair thing as much as the strings and your technique. I have to work really hard to get my bass to squeak now, but in my earlier days with different strings and less developed technique that's all I got! Good arco strings with a good stroke should speak well no matter the hair colour or how much rosin (within reason) or where you bow along the string (again, within reason). I use black hair, btw, but I don't feel it makes as big a difference as many say. It's more coarse and "gritty" for sure, but that's about it.

[Richard Prowse]

I use black hair too and really like how it responds.
The thing about the B section of 'Take 5' is that I'm trying to get the feel right. I started playing it in Gm simply because I have played with guitarists who seem to prefer playing it in that key... I must admit that I've never tried it in the original key because it sits so well on the bass in Gm.
I'm interested to try David's 'finger pull thing' and will have a go tonight. I must admit that I've been a bit slack on bowing exercises... probably not a good thing to overlook as I bow more than I pizz.
However, I'm still interested in any thoughts about bowing that Take 5 middle section.

[Richard Prowse]

There are a few schools of drawing the Bow that I am personally aware of. One is the heavy strong attack on each note. Another is a smooth execution where you do not hear the attack. A third is where it draws softly at the start and quickly swells to the desired tone.

I have used all three mentioned as needed. The first and last style should be used as needed for the music. The middle one where you have control of the note from the start should be the normal way to bow. This I find the hardest to maintain as it requires great practice as well as a Bass (with good bowing strings) that responds well to your Bow. Also, the quality of your Bow will greatly aide in this approach.
I've just been experimenting with the 'finger thing' as suggested by David. I feel that Ken is probably right in that you basically push the bow backwards and forwards (my simplified interpretation). But David's concept certainly made me think as I practised... which has to be good. I've bowed for a long time (longer than I've understood verbs or how women think) and probably do a lot of things naturally, as Jeff moots (is that a pun?). I think that my bowing pattern for the B section of Take 5 is okay. I'd still like to hear what others think though.

[David Powell]

I've just been experimenting with the 'finger thing' as suggested by David. I feel that Ken is probably right in that you basically push the bow backwards and forwards (my simplified interpretation). But David's concept certainly made me think as I practised... which has to be good. I've bowed for a long time (longer than I've understood verbs or how women think) and probably do a lot of things naturally, as Jeff moots (is that a pun?). I think that my bowing pattern for the B section of Take 5 is okay. I'd still like to hear what others think though.The finger pull thing is something my teacher introduced to me for spicatto and it uses both the 1st and 2nd fingers and the thumb to push and pull the stick with almost no wrist movement. Once I had the back and forth movement down using only the hand, my teacher then encouraged me to combine some wrist movement with this, and finally the arm. This gives a very sudden direction reversal at the end of the stroke. If you can imagine it is like popping the clutch, hitting the gas and cresting a hill in rapid succession. I really have to concentrate to get it happening on all the strokes but I do think it gives a much quicker start to full response on the string. I'm not sure there is an equivalent for French bow. I've never been formally taught French bow;- both of my teachers recommended learning German first and I'm still far from proficient with the German technique but definitely have made major improvement in the last 2 years since I got a carved bass with a good set-up.

I'm with you on the "default" stroke Jeff, but in most of the exercises I have (George Vance, etc.) the notes just do not last that long and these call for down-up-down-up (ad infinitum) most of the time so most of my bowing is right around the balance point probably using only the center 10 or so inches of bow hair. Some times if the notes are short enough, my arm doesn't move, just my fingers/hand and wrist. If I draw out a long note, I use more of the bow of course, and the whole arm draws after the first inch of so of hair. I find I do these kinds of things more when improvising bowed solos. When I'm improvising I'm kind of in "anything goes mode" and I just don't think about it much. When I'm reading a chart, my effort is toward a more technical approach to the strokes and releases.

My spare bow still has the white hair and it seems to give about the same sound no matter where I bow the string and is far more forgiving as far as squeaks and scratches. The more focused sound I get with the black hair is worth the extra care in technique. But I'm sure there are several variables in all of this, possibly the primary one being French vs. German hold, etc.

[Jeff Moote]

I don't know about German bow as I'm a French player, but I'm sure what I'm about to say applies to both:
Even on the shortest notes, there must be some arm movement. The wrist/hand alone cannot generate a good sound without the weight of the arm.
How short are these notes you're talking about that you're only using 1/3 of the bow? For an allegro tempo 8ths should get at least half a bow, and at a slow tempo a whole bow. Quarters almost always a whole bow.This is again only for the "default" stroke. There's obviously a lot of other options when you get into articulations, spiccato plus you might want a certain effect like bowing slower near the bridge, etc. The above advice would be for developing a solid orchestral stroke to which adjustments can be made for the other techniques.

[Nick Hart]

I am a German player and play using this "New York" style of playing although I would call it more of a Russian school as all of my German bow teachers have been from Russia. The principle is that the sound comes from large muscle groups, and that your wrist plays no part in the sound. Your entire arm has to work as a unit in order for a core sound to be pulled at all times. Yes, your fingers and wrist play a part in the sound, and the fingers a more important part than the wrist, but the idea is that your fingers and wrist serve as shock absorbers and follow through, and are not conscious movements.

The movement should start from the floor and come through your body, and this creates a very slight sway from side to side in the direction your bow is moving. Then the actual bow movement starts from the muscles in your back and the entire arm moves, and the fingers remain active and pull the string as the bow moves. As this is happening the arm moves in sort of a pendulum motion in order to distribute weight. So as I go through a down bow, my arm lifts a little so that the weight transfers to the tip of the bow and as I pull an up bow, my arm moves lower so the weight transfers from the tip to the frog.

My bow hold is this New York/Russian style hold. I place the pad of my thumb on top of the stick of the bow, with the pointer and middle fingers sitting on the side and playing an active part in the pull of the bow. My ring and pinky fingers sit underneath the ferrole of the bow and balance the bow or act as a more active pull in off the string strokes. The bow sits at a slight angle on my hand, so that I can have flat hair on the strings and keep my wrist straight at all times.

The idea is to feel every bow change and to hear an even sound, but there must be a start to the note in order to correctly hear the pitch. Also, if there is no start to the note, and there is no core sound, there will be very little pitch definition, and this is usually much more obvious in off the string and shorter strokes.

As far as injury goes, most musicians have injuries from repetitive movements in the small muscle groups. We train our small muscle groups to do very specific things and this leads to injury. By moving our primary focus away from small muscle groups and towards large muscle groups, we can let the small muscle groups act more naturally and draw a rich and big bassy sound with less effort and injury.

[Richard Prowse]

Nick,
I read your post with great interest. Thanks for your thoughts.
Richard

[David Powell]

I don't know about German bow as I'm a French player, but I'm sure what I'm about to say applies to both:
Even on the shortest notes, there must be some arm movement. The wrist/hand alone cannot generate a good sound without the weight of the arm.
How short are these notes you're talking about that you're only using 1/3 of the bow? For an allegro tempo 8ths should get at least half a bow, and at a slow tempo a whole bow. Quarters almost always a whole bow.This is again only for the "default" stroke. There's obviously a lot of other options when you get into articulations, spiccato plus you might want a certain effect like bowing slower near the bridge, etc. The above advice would be for developing a solid orchestral stroke to which adjustments can be made for the other techniques. If you don't play German bow, how would you know? :o I think Nick explained it pretty well, but for spiccato or sautille, there is very little arm involved compared to hand and wrist, the way I was taught;- by two different teachers. They were not Russians, but I think it is not inconsistent with Nick's explanation. If the bow is 140+ grams, that is sufficient weight without the arm, and it is not like the weight of the arm is somehow suspended just because it is not going back and forth. The weight of the arm is always there. Just for fun, Jeff, you should try out a German bow. It also makes a difference if you are sitting or standing. I would think no two people end up approaching this exactly the same way. My first teachers bow was light and short. My second teacher thought my 140+ gram bow was a little light. However both taught the same push / pull with the fingers. I can't see how the fingers could do that motion on a French bow hold, so yes, with French maybe it is always the arm and arm only, but not so with the German. I can get 2 inches of very rapid motion with just fingers and wrist. Not that I do that on long notes, just the quick staccato ones. I'll try to take some photos of what I do. Perhaps that will help.

[Jeff Moote]

If you don't play German bow, how would you know? :o Well, I wouldn't! That's not really the point though as I think no matter the grip you have to use your arm. Sure, maybe not as much for shorter off the string strokes, but all the power comes from the shoulder (and beyond). Nick's post confirms this for me, that German players do it too. It also sounds like you can use your fingers to aid in attack.

Just for fun, Jeff, you should try out a German bow. It also makes a difference if you are sitting or standing.No thanks - I don't see any reason to waste time practicing something I'll never use. I think it's best that everyone just picks a grip and continues to develop that all along. Once you've mastered one, it's fair to consider spending some time on the other but as far as I'm concerned I'd like to focus on getting one right :)

I can get 2 inches of very rapid motion with just fingers and wrist. Not that I do that on long notes, just the quick staccato ones. I'll try to take some photos of what I do. Perhaps that will help.I don't think I need photos - understand and this sounds quite fine, but even when executing spicatto you can't use only your fingers. They can aid the movement, but all the sound comes from the shoulder.

[Johnny Layton]

I think it's best that everyone just picks a grip and continues to develop that all along.

I tend to agree, ultimately. I can be a tough call, though, especially when you're a curious sort and the opportunity to explore comes one's way.

I was encouraged to try French bow after only a year of lessons and study by my teacher, who was and still is quite far advanced from me in experience and skill. I did and it was fun, but it didn't take me long to return to the German bow and "get back to work".

Plus consider, say, Paul Ellison switching grips at leisure no matter the bow. I always thought that was darn cool.

Sorry not trying to argue anything, really...just enjoying the bowing thinking stuff all over again

[Richard Prowse]

I played French for many years and switched to German about 3 years ago because of an RSI type hand injury. I love German but, if I had to play French for a while that would be fine too. Each bow definitely has its own advantages but I think that the same basic mechanics of bowing apply to both. I honestly believe that a good arco player would get pleasing results from both bows... good bowing is as much in the head.
Articulation, now there's another problem. Anyone had a go at the Take 5 B section?

[David Powell]

Take Five;- I'll give it a shot later today, Richard. We will be performing tonight and will probably do "Take Five" but I have to play it in key to match the sax. I remember my biggest problem last time I tried it was figuring out where to place the arpeggios in those chords. It seems I was leaning heavily toward thumb position for the whole series of chords but it is possible to do it several different fingerings, all of which result in several different appoaches to the strokes. That is the toughest jazz melody to put on the finger board that I have tried yet. I'm sure once I get the "trick" of the placement down, it will be pretty straight forward.

[Richard Prowse]

Take Five;- I'll give it a shot later today, Richard. We will be performing tonight and will probably do "Take Five" but I have to play it in key to match the sax. I remember my biggest problem last time I tried it was figuring out where to place the arpeggios in those chords. It seems I was leaning heavily toward thumb position for the whole series of chords but it is possible to do it several different fingerings, all of which result in several different appoaches to the strokes. That is the toughest jazz melody to put on the finger board that I have tried yet. I'm sure once I get the "trick" of the placement down, it will be pretty straight forward.
The tune's pretty easy (note wise) in Gm. I play the A section down the bass and do the B section in thumb position. It's the arco articulation of that B section that I spend a lot of time thinking about. I worry about not getting a good feel. I'll be very interested to get your opinion.
Thanks David

[Johnny Layton]

Hey I found some guys playing Take 5 (well, as part of a medley of sorts). Haven't tried to ape it yet and don't quite know which key they're playing in, but thought you guys might like to see it and compare notes. Just scroll down the page till you get to the Bass Gang and click.

http://www.xbass.org/Eng/index.php

[Mark Mazurek]

WHOA, WHOA, WHOA, WHOA!!!







...deep breath...









You know how women think?

I've bowed for a long time (longer than I've understood verbs or how women think) and probably...

[Mark Mazurek]

I'm new to bowing. So I can't contribute to the discussion, so I will try to entertain between the helpful posts.

(Although as a 'new guy', I enjoy black hair on my bow.)


I would be afraid to bow near the bridge as I'd be worried about something like this happening...

http://www.dharmamirror.org/images/bowing01.jpg

I mean, what if I couldn't swim?

[Richard Prowse]

Thanks for the bass gang clip Johnny.
I've watched them before, they're fantastic!
I noted how he bowed the B section but I will have to watch it a few more times.

Mark, bow near the bridge and feel the sizzle! I think you need to spend less time thinking about women and more time practising with your bow... or is it the other way round? Women always get me a bit confused.

[Ken Smith]

I have seen most DB customers on the higher end purchase range test the Bass by Bowing down by the Bridge. Back in the early-mis '70s when I studied with Lew Norton (NY Phil) he had me get this Book called 'Gradus Ad Parrnassium Book II written by Simandl and edited by Zimmermann (Fred?).

The exercise he assigned to me was #21 on page 14 to be played at 60bpm, 1 note per click (Lew's handwritten instructions still in my book) with 8 notes (2 groups of 16ths) per Bow. His written instructions also say 'play as close to the Bridge as possible'.

Also, he assigned me to play #23 with the exact same instructions (2 Bows per bar as this one is in 6/8) with the exception 'play as close to the Bridge as comfortable'.

I don't know if he meant the same thing between possible and comfortable but those of you that have this book, chime in with your war stories!

I don't know where Lew got his interpretation from on this exercise but his teacher was Keith Robinson in Texas who is the father of Hal Robinson, current Principal Bass of the Philly Orch and former Prin. of the National Symp. as well. Maybe if I call Lew up and ask him he might remember. He is about 70ish I think by now and retired only 9 months ago from the Philharmonic.

Now, if the title of this thread is about the Art of Bowing and not just how to play Take 5, then maybe some of you 'warriors' would like some serious material to shed with. Here I have just giving you an inside lesson that is not written in any method book. Buying a book is one thing but knowing a few tricks about using it can almost draw blood from a stone!

Try doing this exercise or anything similar and see how much better your tone improves.

[Charles Federle]

My thought for bow placement is mostly determined by the tone color I want for the music. In orchestra I usually need a warmer and rounder sound so I play closer to the fingerboard, this is also because my bass is a bit on the bright side. For solo work I tend to play much closer to the bridge since I want a more focused and projecting sound. As for practice I tend to work with my technical work (scales and such) close to the bridge since it is harder to play and I need to practice the hard stuff :)

[David Powell]

OK, so this is one of those "how close" is close to the bridge and "how close" is close to the fingerboard questions? I've put it on the calendar (the only way I can stay on track) to get that book, Ken, and I certainly appreciate a helpful passed on tutorial, but just how close is close? Is this like horseshoes (closer than the rest) or calculus (approaches but never gets there);- how close is as close as possible (calculus?) and how close is as close as comfortable (college roommates)? Reasonable estimates accepted in fractions of distance between FB and bridge, inches, or centimeters .....

[Nick Hart]

Playing close to the bridge and close to the fingerboard has its purposes. It also plays into styles of playing. For example, Boston has a fantastic hall that is very resonant, so they often play shorter than most other sections. When it comes to playing close to the bridge or fingerboard, it all has the do with the instrument, so I prefer Paul Ellison's outlook on this. Do what sounds best. If you get the sound you need playing close to the bridge, do it, if not try something else. Of course, as far as exercises, we should always practice bowing sul tasto, sul ponticello, and in various parts of the string so that we can be flexible musicians. This will also help to learn the different tone colors you can produce in different places on the string and for anybody pursuing orchestral careers. Flexibility with the bow is the top of bow technique. The best players can produce any sound they are told to produce on the spot, with very little fussing around to find it.

[Ken Smith]

OK, so this is one of those "how close" is close to the bridge and "how close" is close to the fingerboard questions? I've put it on the calendar (the only way I can stay on track) to get that book, Ken, and I certainly appreciate a helpful passed on tutorial, but just how close is close? Is this like horseshoes (closer than the rest) or calculus (approaches but never gets there);- how close is as close as possible (calculus?) and how close is as close as comfortable (college roommates)? Reasonable estimates accepted in fractions of distance between FB and bridge, inches, or centimeters .....

About an Inch or less with the lower part of the hair almost touching the bridge area. This is meant only as an exercise and not a style of playing. true, sometimes you play at the bridge but the lesson/drill I showed about is a Lesson, not a Style.

[Richard Prowse]

About an Inch or less with the lower part of the hair almost touching the bridge area. This is meant only as an exercise and not a style of playing. true, sometimes you play at the bridge but the lesson/drill I showed about is a Lesson, not a Style.
Alright already! (That's what yankees always say on TV)
Ken, if I find a copy of Gradus Ad Parrnassium Book II, will it contain articulation exercises as well as bowing control exercises. I'd really like to do some work on bowing patterns. I hope that makes sense, I'm doing school work as I write and my mind is on two things - hard for any man!

[Charles Federle]

Alright already! (That's what yankees always say on TV)
Ken, if I find a copy of Gradus Ad Parrnassium Book II, will it contain articulation exercises as well as bowing control exercises. I'd really like to do some work on bowing patterns. I hope that makes sense, I'm doing school work as I write and my mind is on two things - hard for any man!


One of the nice things about practicing bowing patterns is that you don't really need a book, just alot of imagination. Though I have gotten a few handouts that have inspired me and helped out. http://www.box.net/public/static/1ukqpfuhg3.pdf has a copy of the Simandl, at least part of it, along with alot of great technique. http://www.box.net/public/static/icmmgjiz3g.pdf seems to have quite a bit for the bow as well.

As for the how close to the bridge and fingerboard, I agree with Nick. For practice push yourself to the limits, and always try to expand them. In performance though use what sounds best (on my bass about an inch or two for normal orchestra work). Whenever I find myself having played a big work either solo or in an orchestra I can tell that the bow has been all since most of the time you need a wide palate to choose from.

[Richard Prowse]

Charles, that stuff looks good.
Thanks.

[Johnny Layton]

About an Inch or less with the lower part of the hair almost touching the bridge area. This is meant only as an exercise and not a style of playing. true, sometimes you play at the bridge but the lesson/drill I showed about is a Lesson, not a Style.

Along with the Fred Zimmerman bowing book and the Simandl Etudes, doing slow bows as close to the bridge as I could (20-30 sec between bow changes) was David Neubert's "bowing primer" for me.

I'm with you Ken I think the slow-bow exercises (using any scheme to get one started) is the way to go if you want to get the basics down on a good bow sound...learning to do a good draw up or down bow is the foundation.

[Richard Prowse]

One of the nice things about practicing bowing patterns is that you don't really need a book, just alot of imagination.
Very true. I think that this is the way I will go with my articulation practice.

[Richard Prowse]

Following on from Charles' "imagination" idea:
Last night, while fooling with different bowing patterns, I decided to start the B section of Take Five on an up bow. (Ages ago on a bass site in another galaxy, someone had suggested that I try swung eigth notes starting on an up bow but I never actually got round to working on it.)
Instant gratification followed! It seemed to put all the accents in the right places! I still need to go through and change some of my original bowings but I think this could be the answer. Think "week strong week strong"...
Life is looking good,

[David Powell]

I never realized how little attention I was paying to where I bow. Not that I'm all over the place, but it seems I have developed a subconscious preference depending on what I'm doing. I don't tend to get too close to the bridge unless I'm in thumb position on the D and G strings. It seems the lower the notes, the closer the the FB I play and the higher, the closer to the bridge up to about an inch. I'm trying to pay more attention to it now, but really I think if I am getting the tone I want to hear that this is more important than where the bow is. I do understand the exercise part of the discussion and am working out some of that. Thanks for the tips.

[Richard Prowse]

I'm playing in a gypsy jazz band which is turning out to be quite a bit of fun. When I get to solo, one guitarist continues to play "la pompe". I like playing over this, but sometimes he gets a little loud for my pizz. I normally (not always) play arco solos. When I play in the top half of my range, people in the audience often say that it sounds like a violin (okay, they're probably not thinking too much and mean 'something similar to a cello or violin'). This is a fun way to play and is quite liberating! It's like having two instruments! The double bass certainly is the king of instruments!

[Richard Prowse]

I know that this is probably a silly (or well worn) topic but I'd really be interested on how people bow this 1st prelude. I learnt it 8 notes to the bow (I'm talking about the first half really for this bowing) and know that 'slur two 6 single' is probably popular. I tend to work a bit in isolation on these things and wondered if there was a sort of 'standard way' of bowing the prelude that lots of players use.