Yet another bass ID

[Dave Watts]

Hello,

I'm looking at buying a new bass and I took home what I'm told is a Wilfer. The only thing that is written in the inside is "made in Germany". This bass was bought in Montreal in 1957 and was supposedly a Wilfer, but I would love to know what Wilfer anyone might think this would be. My other question is that the bass is going for $10, 000 CAD, which is around $11,000 USD, do you think this is appropriate. I think it was appraised between 12,000 - 15, 000 CAD. Any comments would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance,

Dave

[Dave Watts]

Here's the remaining pictures. Thanks,

Dave Watts

[Ken Smith]

Depending on the year, the shop was either run by Wenzel Wilfer or Emanuelle Wilfer. 10-11k is a big price to pay now for a new Wilfer when so many old Wilfer/Juzek Basses are in circulation and available. The question is, what could YOU sell it for tomorrow if you decide to get something else.

Today, it is not hard to find a Bass well made in China that easily competes with the German Shop Basses. Not long ago I heard that the Wilfer Basses were made by a subbed out Shop in Mittenwald that makes various brands on contract. Still, Wilfers, Juzeks and many other similar German Basses have always been considered as just 'Shop Basses'.

For the value and tone delivered, I would shop for price as well. The new Amati Model Basses (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Amati/) I just had made sound as good or better than any newish Wilfer I've played or heard.

Now, if I posted pics of them here for ID what origin would you have guessed?

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Amati/images/amati-016.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Amati/images/amati-004.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Amati/images/amati-008.jpg

[Dave Watts]

Hey Ken,

Thanks for your input! My gut feeling was this bass was priced a little high, and it's nice to have that confirmed. It's a very good sounding instrument, but I'm going to hold off until I find something I really fall in love with. On another note, it's really interesting to hear how great the Chinese instruments are and also the basses you just got in (Amati). These are good times for people looking for a good instrument under $9000. Thanks again for your help!

Dave

[Dave Watts]

One last thing, I did mention this bass is from 1957?

Dave

[Eric Hochberg]

My gut feeling was this bass was priced a little high...
Dave

This bass reminds me of a Juzek labeled "master art" bass from the mid sixties that sold in Chicago for around $13,000. It was a very nice bass in good shape with better finish condition than the one you are considering. I seem to recall the back and sides were more highly flamed also.

I own a Juzek "masterart" 1955 labeled gamba shaped bass that sounds almost identical to the above instrument. In my recent bass search I couldn't find a better sounding well set up instrument for less than $17,000 at the many shops I visited.

This seems to be top dollar for a Wilfer of this type and age and at that price, it has to sound better to you than other less costly but well made basses for it to make sense. The only way for you to know how good it sounds is to play a lot of basses and to listen to someone else play them, too.

[Dave Watts]

Eric,

I know what you mean, I'm having problems finding a instrument that sounds better than what I have right now, and I've tried alot of basses in the past month. Interesting that you say it looks like your Juzek, it sounds like a juzek.

Dave

[Ken Smith]

I have never heard of a Master Art Gamba before. All the Basses Juzek called 'Master Art' were Violin cornered and highly figured maple back and sides. I have owned 2 of them personally. One was from the 60s and a few years later I found an older 7/8 size from 1936 with a label of 'Anton Wilfer' in it. It was about 43 1/2" string length and Eb neck. I made a long false nut to get it to 42". I sold it shortly after as I did with many Basses back then.

For both the 1955 and 1957 I would make a guess that they are Wenzel Wilfer aka WBW. My Bass was a 3/4 Master Art but had a Wenzel Wilfer label in it. I bought it straight from Juzek in 1971-72. It was there in the 60s when I was in High School as I had seen it many times over the years. One 7/8 Bass that was in the storeroom as well had WBW engraved in the back in Script under the back button.

If you have a Gamba and a 'Master Art' label I would be a bit curious as to how that got in there!

Since Juzek labeled them here in USA in NY anything is possible. On my own new Amati model Basses I made labels for them and put them inside only to realize that all of them were highly figured and could be priced as 'Deluxe' models but it was too late. The labels were already glued in. The Shops usually send what they have from abroad. The importer/seller is the one that decides what it can be called and priced as.

With Wilfer Basses I have seen several new ones and if not for high quality Basses made in China for less as well as Basses from Romania and Hungary, the Germans have a problem to deal with. They are no longer the best buy in town!

[Eric Hochberg]

If you have a Gamba and a 'Master Art' label I would be a bit curious as to how that got in there!

My "Juzek" doesn't have some of the other "master art" characteristics like the ebony diamond and fancy purfling around the button area, and the ebony "liners" along the neck heel/rib area. The purfling under the button is also squared off as opposed to rounded like other Juzek basses. It does have nicely flamed neck, back and sides, though.

Maybe they were out of other labels when this one came in or someone goofed... or the wood was nice enough to pass off as "master art" or an unscrupulous seller put it in somewhere along the way... The man I bought it from in 1978 was an old school Hungarian luthier here in Chicago who has since passed on, the nicest guy, who never struck me as being anything but a straight shooter.

[Ken Smith]

My "Juzek" doesn't have some of the other "master art" characteristics like the ebony diamond and fancy purfling around the button area, and the ebony "liners" along the neck heel/rib area. The purfling under the button is also squared off as opposed to rounded like other Juzek basses. It does have nicely flamed neck, back and sides, though.

Maybe they were out of other labels when this one came in or someone goofed... or the wood was nice enough to pass off as "master art" or an unscrupulous seller put it in somewhere along the way... The man I bought it from in 1978 was an old school Hungarian luthier here in Chicago who has since passed on, the nicest guy, who never struck me as being anything but a straight shooter.

Anything is possible including your Bass never actually being a Juzek to begin with. Can you post pics of it here?

[Eric Hochberg]

One well known shop thinks this might be a W Wilfer, another says a Mittenwald factory bass, maybe E Wilfer as "he has his basses roughed out in that factory". What do you think?

[Ken Smith]

One well known shop thinks this might be a W Wilfer, another says a Mittenwald factory bass, maybe E Wilfer as "he has his basses roughed out in that factory". What do you think?

Nice tightly flamed Bass. Nothing like the Flame I have seen on Juzeks but wood is wood so anything is possible. For a Juzek model you would expect to see the Purfled design under the button but they have bought other Basses for orders as needed. For a Master Art model of that period, besides the high flame I would also expect to see Violin Corners, Purfled Design (maybe an ebony diamond in the center) and individual Tuners.

If you came to me to sell or trade that Bass in, I would accept it as a German Shop Bass with high flame mid 20th century(1955 as you say). It would not matter much where it was made within Germany as much as the condition and sound. The price/value would not differ much from Wilfer, Juzek or even Pollmann as much as what sound the Bass puts out as well as its past or future repairs done or needed (aka condition).

German Shop Basses today sell for a variety of prices and I don't see any pattern to go by. Some Basses seem over priced and others seem way under priced. These Basses may have sold from $100 - $900 in the 1950s thru 1970s so seeing them sell for 10-20x that price is difficult to swallow. I sold a Gustave Bernardel in the 70s for just under 4k and a Barbe for about 4k. With this kind of math then could the same people ask 40-80k for a 19th century French Bass? Well, there might be a few that would command that price but it would not be the norm. With that in mind, why should plain Jane Factory German Basses sell for the prices they are asking these days?

I have seen 3 nice older German Basses sell from about 20-25k recently. One was a big 7/8 about 90-100 years old, fully restored and could pass for an Italian Orch Bass. Another was a beautiful handmade German Orchestra Bass about 100 years or so and would also fit any orch. The third was a 200 year old Bass with many many repairs but in good health and sounded its age. I have not seen many Wilfers or Juzeks that could hang with the tone of those Basses.