History of the American Bass [Archive] - Ken's Corner (Bass Forums Sponsored By KSB)

Ken Smith

01-19-2007, 10:21 PM

I have now owned 2 old Yankee Basses and one new one as well as an old English Bass that was restored in 19th century New England. I have great respect for these Bass Pioneers. Both of my older Basses are from the Prescott School. One is by A. Batchelder & Son, 1875 and the other a 7/8 Prescott c.1820 which I sold in 2006.

I have seen many Yankee Basses at other shops both pictured and in person. Some of them have replaced Scrolls and a few Basses I have seen have old Yankee type Scrolls but look to be European made Basses that were repaired here. When I was a young Bassist 35 years ago the only American Bass mentioned was Prescott. Since I started looking closely at this in the last few years it is clear to me that the Prescott name has been used much too often in naming an olde Yankee. Even Basses owned by famous players that I have seen I have to be honest with my opinions and say Prescott ‘School’ but ‘not’ a Prescott. Prescott was not the first maker of Bass instruments but his output and success made him the most prolific Yankee maker. Let's 'hunt' those Yankee Basses down and get them cataloged up here.......

All of my Basses can be found here regardless if they have been sold already; http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/

These are some of the names that popped up on the TB thread I started; Prescott, Dearborn, Bates, J.B. Allen, Tewksbury..And Prescott attributed Basses owned by Scott Lafaro and Reggie Workman that have different FFs ad Scrolls than the other Prescotts we have seen.

Also, George and August Gemunder who moved here from Europe and settled in NY after starting out in Mass. as well as Czech born Joseph Bohmann who set-up shop in Chicago around 1888.

Yankee Bass owners & fans, Speak out!

Ken Smith

01-19-2007, 10:23 PM

Not all made Basses. Many made just Church Basses and most made only Violins.

I have a fairly large book by Wenberg on American makers. Again, it's mostly Violins but there are 'mentions' only about some that made Basses. "The Violin Makers of the United States
by Thomas James Wenberg, Mount Hood Publishing Company, 1986."

I have read a story about the Smithsonian claiming Prescott made only 12 of the 7/8ths Basses but that does not make sense to me. Prescott made 207 Double Basses not counting the 500 or so Church Basses. I would assume that most were 7/8ths, some 4/4 and 3/4 sizes. Maybe the 5/4, 7.5ft Basses as Elgar refers to is what the Smithsonian is referring to.

I have also read that they made them 3-string as it was to be plain and conservative as the 4-String was new in much of Europe at that time and England was the last to go to 4-strings. New Englanders being mostly of English decent viewed the Bass as a 3-string instrument for traditional purposes.

My Batchelder from New Hampshire was made in 1875 as a 4-string. This shows that most of the 19th century stayed 3-string in NE.

Arnold Schnitzer and Robbie MacIntosh were looking over my Prescott when Robbie pointed out some faint Purfling left in around the C-bout edges.. What does this mean? This large 7/8 Prescott was cut down from a 4/4 size to its present shape. The Purfling Loop on the Neck Button did make us think it was cut but we didn't see any other clues at that time so we dismissed the idea until now.

I have seen a picture of a Church bass with an Oak or Ash Scroll on line. Also, my Batchelder has a quarter sawn White Pine Back so I would venture to say that early makers in New England used local woods on occassion that was less than traditional for string instruments.

Ken Smith

01-19-2007, 10:24 PM

Prescott Scrolls

In an article I read It was believed that Prescott copied an old English Scroll for his model. I don't know if they are referring to Basses or Gambas on this one. I have seen other American Scrolls with carvings as well. Some have 4 and even 6 turns at the Head. I have seen Italians with an extra turn but never with 6. This seems to be mostly early American. Prescotts Scrolls vary from period to period but they are always the same idea. Scrolls are carved in at the top with inlaid plates for all that I have seen. FF holes are wide and short looking and usually upright but some have a bit of slant. Most that are un-altered are attached to the top at the ends.

I see the most variation on the neck block and back construction. Some backs are double thickness with the ribs bent around them using the back lip channel as the bending form. My Batchelder is made that way. Some have neck blocks that from the outside seem to be the original design while many others have raised upper ribs at the neck suggesting they were made 'blockless'. Ofcourse these have been 'blocked' at the first chance during its earliest restoration. My Prescott was cut down and the original Purfling only shows in the corners and the 'button' area. We will try to figure out what shape and size this was originally if at all possible once the top is off. Many Prescotts were made with the Ribs ‘inserted’ into the Top and Back plates like a Yankee Furniture Drawers.

The other thing that varies with these Basses are the sizes he made as well as design. Gamba and Busetto were made as well as two different Block/less designs. I have seen a 3/4 Gamba the huge ones on line over 7ft Tall and the cut versions like mine. I would guess he made mostly 7/8-4/4 sizes with some 3/4 and some 5/4 models over his life span.

The 5-string Gagliano in the Elgar Book is now believed to be a George Panormo and was converted back to 4-strings some time ago. The Nicolo Amati (labeled) used by 'Virtuoso de Roma' on all the Vivaldi recordings of the 1950s-'60s is now attributed to CG Testori. This happens a lot with old instruments attributed to famous makers. If we never saw a JB Allen or Dearborn we would most likely call them all Prescotts. There is nothing bad here, just open minds looking for truth in Bass making history. A maker named Benjamin Willard (1805-1810) is believed to be Prescotts teacher. Recently I saw a Bass in a NY shop and thought it was a beautiful Willard only to be told it’s a Prescott. It seems that every Yankee bass wants to be the most famous regardless of fact. Regardless of who the maker is, I see the values based on the individual Basses as long as they have similar merits, Prescott or not.

Ken Smith

01-19-2007, 10:26 PM

Now, as far as Prescott restorations go, a lot of discoveries were made when mine was opened up. The Top still has some evidence left of the Bass having Rabbit joints on the Top as well as the Back where the ribs were bent around the plates instead of using a form. This Bass was reduced in size (upper shoulders and C bouts but corners all original) and must have been trimmed just inside the Purfling line and re-carved internally to even the Bass out by that Joint. This means that this is an earlier Prescott than originally thought. We originally dated it due to the Dearborn Label as maybe old stock when the Bought the Shop from Prescott in 1845 or so but now we have a different viewpoint on it's age. This also means it is a Deerfield Bass and not made in Concord. We now believe this early 4/4 cut down Prescott to be c.1820 as his later Basses also have a lighter Varnish and different construction.

Arnold also found an old repair label inside from O.H. Bryant, August 1941. Bryant was the main repairman for the Boston Symphony. He died in 1943 at the age of 70. He was 68 when he worked on this Bass.
This Prescott of mine has had many alterations. It currently has a replaced Neck (graft), Neck Block, Size totally trimmed and reduced, Bass Bar replaced (but very old), Converted from 3 to 4 strings in the latter part of the 19th century with French gears and the Upper Ribs re-bent and sloped inwards as it is evident in the lighter Varnish color of the upper Ribs.

The Cross Bars in this Bass are Pine (as is the Top) and will be replaced as they are literally falling off the Back. The Bass Bar might remain but I have to look at it along with the Graduations which are almost perfect. The Top being slightly thicker near the Bar makes me think that the person that 'might' have done a re-graduation on the Top worked around the Bar instead of removing it. This being an Early Prescott and in fantastic condition leads me to believe Prescott left the Top extra thick as it is 11mm on one spot but 7mm right next to it. Maybe it was 11mm at that point and re-graduated to 7mm as far as possible without disturbing an otherwise good Bass Bar. The Bar itself it crude according to Arnold and he may just re-shape it slightly and leave the Top as is. "Aint Broke, dont fix!".. The Bass will need a Neck-graft again to get the proper Bridge height, Neck-stand, D-stop and string length desired by today’s professional Orchestra player. A few cracks need to be glued, Blocks glued back, half edging on about 1/2 the underside of the Top and a host of other small but important details. I have asked Arnold to do***ent his work as best possible on film as this Bass IS a real Prescott and maybe one of the oldest examples of a Yankee Bass we have seen from the inside.

Pre-Restoration and Post Restoration links; http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/prescott/index.html http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/prescott/prescott-preview.html

Ken Smith

01-19-2007, 10:27 PM

I recently ordered some info on Prescott from the 'New Hampshire Historical Society' and just received it today. It is hand written accounting records (probably done at one time as the handwriting is identical on all pages) of all the Bass Viols from 1809 -1829 numbering 147 instruments. I believe these were both types of Bass instruments from the prices he charged.

For instance, this is how and what is written;
1. (when made) 1809 April - (when sold) 1809 Nov - Jon P. Cram M. (Price) 14""

#s 1-15 are priced from 10"" to 17"" (1809-1819 Nov.)with some @15.50
#11 had no price and says yr.1818, Doit. Crosby with no price listed.
Then after #15, #11 is listed again and says; (made) 1819, Nov (sold) 1820 Jan. Harrison Gray, 16"".

#3 of 1811 is re-entered after #43 and says who bought it first and who then bought it again in 1824 Oct. It seems to have a record of both Buyers there.

After 30 instruments made by July of 1823 he had grossed $530.50. His prices now change after #15 ($14.) as #16 is $28. and #27 and 28 are only $12.

As time goes on his prices go up to 20s and 50s. I believe this MUST be the price differences between his Church Basses and his Double Basses. In Feb of 1828, one entry is for $72.50, the highest price yet and sold to Deacon Mason. Was this his first 7ft 5/4 Busetto monster? I see one other Bass earlier for $60. That says (when made) Oct. & Nov., (sold Nov.19, 1825 to T. Thompson. Several Basses b4 and after were only $20. Some say in the Price column, 20 B.B.6. This appears first on #40 and last on #92. What could B.B.6. mean? A bank account, partner, location?

These are only legal pad sized photo copies and are not so clear. I am using a Magnifier Glass to read these for you.. And me too..lol

Some names appear many times in the sold list. One of interest is Henry Prentiss who himself was a Violin Maker in Mass. at that time. He must have been a dealer for Prescott’s Basses because I see 16 of them sold to him and often several in a row. The first was #76 made March 1826 and sold Nov 1826 to Esq. Prentise and later entries all say Henry Prentise. The last on my List are #s132, 133 and 134 from July 1828. All 3 seem to be Double Basses as they are $45/2 and $50. each. Also, $16-$29 seems the low $ in that period and they must be Church Basses. It seems that Prentise bough both types of Bass from the prices show paying $25. or $50. in the same month. In the Wenberg book of American makers his name is spelled with ss at the end, Prentiss. Is this the same guy? I think so.. maybe not...lol.. Dealer? Maker?

Anyway, I wonder if my EXACT Prescott Bass is listed here. Then I would know who the first owner was. Gee, I wonder if the Warranty is transferable.. That would save me alot of money in repairs..lol

Ken Smith

01-19-2007, 10:29 PM

Bates listing!

Ok, here is what I have from the Wenberg Book of American Violin & Bow makers;

"Bates, A.B. & Co.; Fairfield, ME. Makers of double basses. Operated there c. 1843. Used cedar for the top plates."

With the location and period listed we can only assume he was influenced by Prescott. There were many workers over the years in both the Deerfield and Concord shops so we cannot rule out his possible employment or training at an earlier time. Keeping an open mind and considering the close proximity, we can consider Bates as a Prescott 'School' Bass maker. Photos pending of course.. Just to keep it honest..lol

There are a few Prescott features that would be good to date if possible. Rabbit joint/inlaid Ribs into the top and back, Blockless, No Linings, Busetto, 3/4 and large 7/8 Gambas, X-brace (not exclusively), FFs, Cello models, etc..

These features appear on various Prescott Basses. The features you see on almost all but the first few are Wide FFs attached to the Top, Flat Back, the unique long Scroll with inlaid brass plates, and 3-string. The rare early ones are huge 7/8 or small 4/4 Cello form with thin long sweeping FF holes like his Church Basses and a carved Round Back.

Ken Smith

01-19-2007, 10:30 PM

Dates & Prices..
Prescott prices for the first 15 Basses from 1809 thru 1819 were $10.- $17. Who knows why the difference in Price! These must have been Church Basses and #11 of the first 15 was sold in 1818 and again in 1820. So it seems that he also took trade-ins on his own Church Basses. #3 of 1811 was bought back and sold again in 1824 for $17. the first time and $18. the second time. While the lower priced sales were under $20. The first one (Double Bass?) at $23., #16 was made and sold in April of 1820. Was this the first DoubleBass? Also, it was sold to 'Smith Batchelder'! What? I am Smith and I own a Batchelder Bass. Is this Fate or the 'TwiLight Zone'. This MUST be my calling. When MY Prescott is finished in restoration, FATE tells me I am done buying and playing other Basses. Seeing **Smith Batchelder in his record books sends CHILLS up my Spine!

** A Batchelder bass now owned by me, Ken Smith; http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/batchelder/index.html

In June of 1820 #18 is sold for $28. while $14. and $16. instruments are still being sold presumeably Church Basses. #55 was made march 1825 and sold in July for $50. It was bought back in october and sold for $52. He first wrote $50 and changed the '0' to a '2' as if he forgot to make a profit... The first buyer bought another Bass in Oct 1825 as well and he paid $57.50 this time. I guess he used the first Bass trade-in to pay for most and only made up the difference after Prescott sold his Bass.

My Prescott was cut down possible by Prescott because of the construction b4 the cut and at the re-build both times having the Ribs set in channels in the Top and Back. I am sure he cut down several of his Basses and helped owners trade up or dispose of Basses as needed.

In the 147 instruments made thru early 1829, there are records of 6 being bought back and sold again, #s 3,11,23, 28, 50 (sold first to the name Dearborn), and 55. The ones with lower prices I assume to be Church Basses.

Well, we need to see a 'confirmed' Tewkesbury. I mentioned Ira and Asa White and have seen a small 5/8 size Bass by them in NY. Benjamin Willard is reported to have trained Prescott but haven't seen his Double Basses but did see one I suspect. Baker of Boston I think was spotted somewhere.. and I am sure if I sit down with my American Violin Makers book, I can dig up a few more names BUT, seeing is believing.. and much much more fun..

Ken Smith

01-19-2007, 10:31 PM

More Yanks..

I don't remember if these were posted before but I consider these important. Some are pre-Prescott Church Basses. Also, one of Prescotts Earliest Basses looks much cruder than we are used to seeing. I think this makes some Basses we know of difficult to date.

Benjamin Crehore (1765-1831); http://www.mfa.org/collections/searc...&coll_start=21 (http://www.mfa.org/collections/search_art.asp?recview=true&id=50920&coll_keywords=&coll_accession=&coll_name=&coll_artist=&coll_place=&coll_medium=&coll_culture=&coll_classification=&coll_credit=&coll_provenance=&coll_location=&coll_has_images=&coll_on_view=&coll_sort=0&coll_sort_order=0&coll_package=10083&coll_start=21)
http://www.mfa.org/collections/searc...&coll_start=21 (http://www.mfa.org/collections/search_art.asp?recview=true&id=51236&coll_keywords=&coll_accession=&coll_name=&coll_artist=&coll_place=&coll_medium=&coll_culture=&coll_classification=&coll_credit=&coll_provenance=&coll_location=&coll_has_images=&coll_on_view=&coll_sort=0&coll_sort_order=0&coll_package=10083&coll_start=21)
http://www.mfa.org/collections/searc...&coll_start=21 (http://www.mfa.org/collections/search_art.asp?recview=true&id=50921&coll_keywords=&coll_accession=&coll_name=&coll_artist=&coll_place=&coll_medium=&coll_culture=&coll_classification=&coll_credit=&coll_provenance=&coll_location=&coll_has_images=&coll_on_view=&coll_sort=0&coll_sort_order=0&coll_package=10083&coll_start=21)
http://www.mfa.org/collections/searc...&coll_start=21 (http://www.mfa.org/collections/search_art.asp?recview=true&id=51100&coll_keywords=&coll_accession=&coll_name=&coll_artist=&coll_place=&coll_medium=&coll_culture=&coll_classification=&coll_credit=&coll_provenance=&coll_location=&coll_has_images=&coll_on_view=&coll_sort=0&coll_sort_order=0&coll_package=10083&coll_start=21)

Benjamin Whittemore Willard,(1762–1848) reported to have taught Prescott; http://www.mfa.org/collections/searc...&coll_start=21 (http://www.mfa.org/collections/search_art.asp?recview=true&id=51286&coll_keywords=&coll_accession=&coll_name=&coll_artist=&coll_place=&coll_medium=&coll_culture=&coll_classification=&coll_credit=&coll_provenance=&coll_location=&coll_has_images=&coll_on_view=&coll_sort=0&coll_sort_order=0&coll_package=10083&coll_start=21)

Other Bass Viols (non-Prescott); http://www.mfa.org/collections/searc...&coll_start=31 (http://www.mfa.org/collections/search_art.asp?recview=true&id=51295&coll_keywords=&coll_accession=&coll_name=&coll_artist=&coll_place=&coll_medium=&coll_culture=&coll_classification=&coll_credit=&coll_provenance=&coll_location=&coll_has_images=&coll_on_view=&coll_sort=0&coll_sort_order=0&coll_package=10083&coll_start=31)
http://www.mfa.org/collections/searc...&coll_start=21 (http://www.mfa.org/collections/search_art.asp?recview=true&id=51091&coll_keywords=&coll_accession=&coll_name=&coll_artist=&coll_place=&coll_medium=&coll_culture=&coll_classification=&coll_credit=&coll_provenance=&coll_location=&coll_has_images=&coll_on_view=&coll_sort=0&coll_sort_order=0&coll_package=10083&coll_start=21)

Prescott Viols and DB; http://www.mfa.org/collections/searc...&coll_start=31 (http://www.mfa.org/collections/search_art.asp?recview=true&id=50874&coll_keywords=&coll_accession=&coll_name=&coll_artist=&coll_place=&coll_medium=&coll_culture=&coll_classification=&coll_credit=&coll_provenance=&coll_location=&coll_has_images=&coll_on_view=&coll_sort=0&coll_sort_order=0&coll_package=10083&coll_start=31)
http://www.mfa.org/collections/searc...&coll_start=31 (http://www.mfa.org/collections/search_art.asp?recview=true&id=51287&coll_keywords=&coll_accession=&coll_name=&coll_artist=&coll_place=&coll_medium=&coll_culture=&coll_classification=&coll_credit=&coll_provenance=&coll_location=&coll_has_images=&coll_on_view=&coll_sort=0&coll_sort_order=0&coll_package=10083&coll_start=31)
http://www.mfa.org/collections/searc...&coll_start=31 (http://www.mfa.org/collections/search_art.asp?recview=true&id=51296&coll_keywords=&coll_accession=&coll_name=&coll_artist=&coll_place=&coll_medium=&coll_culture=&coll_classification=&coll_credit=&coll_provenance=&coll_location=&coll_has_images=&coll_on_view=&coll_sort=0&coll_sort_order=0&coll_package=10083&coll_start=31)

When you look at the last one dated 1823 (labeled or estimated, I have no idea?) you wonder about the claims of the other Prescott Basses dated 1818-1823 that are so much more refined. It almost seems impossible for a Bass like this to be made 5 years after the large Busetto posted in the previous post.

By the way, this is where these pics came from; http://www.mfa.org/collections/searc...&coll_start=21 (http://www.mfa.org/collections/search_art.asp?coll_package=10083&coll_start=21)

Ken Smith

01-19-2007, 10:39 PM

Fig.8/Pattern 'D'.this is figure 8, the 'Wright' Prescott;
http://home.earthlink.net/%7Eprescottviol/data/NHHistSoc121WrightTailpc.jpg

As you can see in his Pic as compared to mine, the upper shoulders are on the narrow side. Mine were actually much bigger before the 'Cut' so I would believe mine to be an earlier example by Prescott. The date listed as 1800 is at least 25 years too early as that is NOT the work of an 11 year old boy (Prescott born 1789) as well as that Bass looking very well developed into his style as sizing especially with the smaller trimmed/evolved upper bouts. Also, my lower bouts are 28.5" wide, uncut as the bottom is original;
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Prescott/images/prescott_fullFR.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Prescott/images/pres_fullback.jpg

Ken Smith

01-19-2007, 10:41 PM

This is why I mentioned that my model is not listed in the A-D list.
http://home.earthlink.net/%7Eprescottviol/data/NHHistSoc120gamba.jpg

Maybe mine was the 'E' model and made before he bothered with the Busetto which does have the later and lighter varnish on all that I have seen.

More here on Don Carrigan’s Prescott page; http://home.earthlink.net/~prescottviol/data/ (http://home.earthlink.net/%7Eprescottviol/data/)

Jeff Bollbach

01-26-2007, 10:27 AM

Great job, Ken. A thought occurred to me-I remember that David Bromberg had a keen interest in Yankee instruments. Was wondering if you had ever crossed paths with him in that regard?

Ken Smith

01-26-2007, 11:33 AM

Great job, Ken. A thought occurred to me-I remember that David Bromberg had a keen interest in Yankee instruments. Was wondering if you had ever crossed paths with him in that regard?

The Banjo guy? No, never met him. All I have to offer at the moment is the Batchelder Bass but enjoy talking about it.

On another note, over at TB, they have this thread about a restored Prescott by Lou DiLeone. It is NOT in no way a Prescott and either is Jason's Bass that he says looks like Lou's.
Everything in a Violin made near Cremona is a Strad..NOT..
Every old Bass from Milano is a Testore..NOT..
Every 19th century Bass from New England is a Prescott..NOT..

What is so hard about that. Even dealers can't get that straight. It's a shame when you look at it. There were many good Yankee Bass makers from the 19th century and we know that now. Why still is everything a Prescott?

Brian Glassman

01-28-2007, 10:49 PM

The Banjo guy? No, never met him. All I have to offer at the moment is the Batchelder Bass but enjoy talking about it.

On another note, over at TB, they have this thread about a restored Prescott by Lou DiLeone. It is NOT in no way a Prescott and either is Jason's Bass that he says looks like Lou's.
Everything in a Violin made near Cremona is a Strad..NOT..
Every old Bass from Milano is a Testore..NOT..
Every 19th century Bass from New England is a Prescott..NOT..

What is so hard about that. Even dealers can't get that straight. It's a shame when you look at it. There were many good Yankee Bass makers from the 19th century and we know that now. Why still is everything a Prescott?

Yeah, when I look at the restored bass by Lou DiLeone the shape of the lower bouts AND the 'f's don't exactly scream Prescott to me either.

BG

Ken Smith

01-28-2007, 11:19 PM

Yeah, when I look at the retored bass by Lou DiLeone the shape of the lower bouts AND the 'f's don't exactly scream Prescott to me either.

BG

To me, it's not so much the shape as it is the FF cuts and Scroll. Like Jeff Bollbach has preached to me, each person makes a curve his own way. In the case with hand made instruments, you can see if it's the same guy or not. With shop or production instruments, you cannot. In the case of Prescott having his own design with several workers over a 30 year period making Basses in two cities and at least 4 shops, you will see variation but not one that looks like a completely different maker or style. I have seen only two FF patterns used on Prescott Basses and only one Scroll design. The measurements vary from period to period but the 'idea' does not. With the FFs, only a few of the full sized Cello model Basses have that sweeping 'S' design as seen in his earlier Cellos (Church Basses). According to the records I have I don't see that he made that many Double Basses prior 1829 or in his first decade of making them. Mainly what we see are the Church Basses. After the move to Concord and the expansion of the shop, we see even the Cellos (Church Basses) using the short wide FFs that are on almost 98% of the Basses he made. When you see an old Yankee Bass and the FFs are not Prescott, that's usually a 'smoking gun' right there. Many old Basses have had their Necks/Scrolls replaced as until recent years, not everyone considered an original Bass Scroll of value or worth saving with a grafted neck. I understand Prescott farmed out his Scroll work at some point. This would mean that each time the model was made for duplicating, slight variations could occur as they could with final sanding and hand shaping. My Prescott (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Prescott/Prescott.htm) (now sold) had a beautiful Scroll with soft lines. Some are more box-like in their finished state but some not. In either case, you can always tell it's a Prescott. Similar looking long Scrolls with extra turns or similar pegbox lines are just 'Prescott School' model Basses.

I bet that if my Batchelder (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/BatchBass/batchBass.htm) did not have a label, it would be called a Prescott by just about any of the Dealers currently throwing his name around casually as we have seen to date. For lack of a better name, it is easier to call anything close to Prescott a Prescott. The only problem is that it's not close to my eye having studied his Basses over the last few years mainly for personal interest. So far, two Basses called Prescott and owned by famous players are just not a Prescott to me eye.

Don Carrigan

03-02-2007, 09:49 PM

DATING PRESCOTTS:
We know that in 1822 Abraham Prescott travelled (by c**** & Hudson?) to the annual "Mechanics Exhibit" to show of his new DOUBLE BASS. He built his FIRST DOUBLE BASS IN 1819. Then one a year until 1822. The newspapers in New York made a fool of him, saying his double bass was 'UNPLAYABLE' because the shoulders were rediculously wide! He had "projected" the measurements directly from 'cello measurements!
With his tail between his legs he quickly beat a path back to Dearfield, N.H. and instantly cut down (narrowed) the shoulders of every bass in his shop and perhaps others he might contact. Remember, these basses were sold to accompany choirs. One didn't have to play like Koussavitsky to play roots and fifths on a 3 string bass.
But dating his DOUBLE basses is easy for examples PIROR to 1824. He, himself, carved his earliest scrolls from soft sycamore wood with an open back string box and "teeth marks" at bottom rear. Here's my 1820 Prescott Busetto (now 5 string neck) showing pre 1823 carving: http://home.earthlink.net/~prescottviol/Photos/1820PrescottOpenStrBoxRear.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~prescottviol/Photos/1820Prescott5StrScroll.jpg
In addition, Prescott's earliest basses sported FF holes ONE INCH WIDE!!! and, if you include the triangular notches, ONE INCH AND A QUARTER WIDE!!! The largest FF holes what am, ever. He only made a few of the provable early basses.
http://home.earthlink.net/~prescottviol/Photos/2006Prescott.jpg
By 1830, increasing business demanded that Prescott hire apprentices, some of whom quickly changed designs to personal tastes. Many later walked away to start their own shops, especially after two shop fires.
Prescott numbers may be misleading inasmuch as he simply numbered instruments consequtively, whether 'cellos, church basses, double basses and even one or two violas and a single violin. We have to guess.
See my photos and data at http://home.earthlink.net/~prescott
Front: http://home.earthlink.net/~prescottviol/Photos/2003PRESCOTT5strgFRONT.jpg
Angle: http://home.earthlink.net/~prescottviol/Photos/2003PRESCOTT5strgANGLED.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~prescottviol/Photos/2003PRESCOTT5strgSCROLLSIDE.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~prescottviol/Photos/2004PRESCOTTdonSMALL.jpg

Ken Smith

04-06-2007, 01:33 PM

It's getting harder to maintain this List of Purported Prescott Bass Locations, but here's my latest data. Click here below:

http://home.earthlink.net/~prescottviol/data/LOCATIONSPrescott07APRIL5.txt (http://home.earthlink.net/%7Eprescottviol/data/LOCATIONSPrescott07APRIL5.txt)

I let Don know that my c.1820 Prez is now in the Columbus Symphony but I still have the Prescott School/relative Batchelder Bass.

Brian Glassman

06-07-2007, 02:15 AM

Barrie has the Arvel Shaw Prescott up for sale.

There are nice pics here: http://kolstein.cybrhost.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=KMI&Product_Code=4b2759&Category_Code=bass
BG

Ken Smith

06-07-2007, 10:50 PM

Barrie has the Arvel Shaw Prescott up for sale.

There are nice pics here: http://kolstein.cybrhost.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=KMI&Product_Code=4b2759&Category_Code=bass

BG

Why do you believe that to be a Prescott? The FFs and Scroll are different than all the other Prescotts we have seen. Maybe it's another Yankee maker but I don't buy every old Yankee being a Prescott because someone claims it to be!

Brian Glassman

06-13-2007, 02:01 AM

I don't buy every old Yankee being a Prescott because someone claims it to be!

I agree, however I have seen some longer swooping f's like these on a lighter colored, very large 'Prescott' that I believe is on Barrie's pay to veiw site. Also similar f's on some Prescott church basses. AND the cello shaped one sold at Hammond Ashley's. We've also talked about the possibility that Abe and the boys probably used different scrolls from dif. suppliers thru the decades.
Also on the Arvel Shaw bass, look at the outer linings on the ribs and along the side of the neck joint, as well as the flamed rock maple back and compare it to this bass at Nahrmann's : http://www.nahrmannbass.com/cgi-bin/datacgi/database.cgi?file=Invent&report=UsedSingleBassRecord&UsedID=0003

pretty similar.

BG

Ken Smith

06-13-2007, 03:40 AM

I agree, however I have seen some longer swooping f's like these on a lighter colored, very large 'Prescott' that I believe is on Barrie's pay to veiw site. Also similar f's on some Prescott church basses. AND the cello shaped one sold at Hammond Ashley's. We've also talked about the possibility that Abe and the boys probably used different scrolls from dif. suppliers thru the decades.
Also on the Arvel Shaw bass, look at the outer linings on the ribs and along the side of the neck joint, as well as the flamed rock maple back and compare it to this bass at Nahrmann's : http://www.nahrmannbass.com/cgi-bin/datacgi/database.cgi?file=Invent&report=UsedSingleBassRecord&UsedID=0003

pretty similar.

BG

Brian, the sweeping FFs on the early Prescott Cellos and a small amount of Cello Model Basses are quite different than the LaFaro and Shaw Basses. Basses by JB Allen in Ma. and Bates in Vt. have a similar sweep to those just mentioned including my Batchelder. It is unfortunate that most dealers today still call any Bass similar to a Prescott a Genuine one. Maybe you can go back and read my original longer thread on TB about the Yankee makers (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=210742)which has pics of some of these other makers. Then it will be clearer that many other makers used similar features like Prescott.

Brian Glassman

06-13-2007, 08:31 AM

Brian, the sweeping FFs on the early Prescott Cellos and a small amount of Cello Model Basses are quite different than the LaFaro and Shaw Basses. Basses by JB Allen in Ma. and Bates in Vt. have a similar sweep to those just mentioned including my Batchelder. It is unfortunate that most dealers today still call any Bass similar to a Prescott a Genuine one. maybe you can go back and read my original longer thread on TB about the Yankee makers (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=210742)which has pics of some of these other makers. Then it will be clearer that many other makers used similar features like Prescott.

Ken, It doesn't necessarily mean that they are not Prescotts either. I have gone thru that thread extensively. That is what got me on TB in the first place. However, I don't remember seeing any outer linings that looked like these on basses other than Prescotts. Would you agree that this Nahrmann three stringer is the real deal? I saw it and played it in the flesh. He believes the tailpiece to be original.

BG

Ken Smith

06-13-2007, 10:59 AM

Ken, It doesn't necessarily mean that they are not Prescotts either. I have gone thru that thread extensively. That is what got me on TB in the first place. However, I don't remember seeing any outer linings that looked like these on basses other than Prescotts. Would you agree that this Nahrmann three stringer is the real deal? I saw it and played it in the flesh. He believes the tailpiece to be original.

BG

Brian, the 3-stringer is a Prescott. The Linings have zero to do with the ID process. the FFs and Scroll is the main focus here as far as I am concerned. We see linings on Allen and Bates Basses as well as other Olde Yanks!

If a dealer claims Prescott, he can charge more money than if he says 'Prescott School'. Please sit back a moment and look at the possibility of those other Basses NOT being Prescott. The 'NOT' factor benefits the Dealer/seller and owner much less than the 'YES' factor. I don't care so much about the $ factor as I prefer the truth who the actual maker might be. I have looked at several 'claimed' Prescotts over the last couple of years including some with famous Jazzers as owners past and present. I am sorry to say that in the case of this Pedigree I am often the bearer of Bad News!

This means nothing to the credibility of the actual Bass or the sound of it. It just means that there were other good makers making Basses at the same time that also used outer Linings and Busetto corners. If the Scroll and especially the FFs are different, then I suspect the Bass may be not be from the head of the School but rather one of the followers.

Brian Glassman

06-13-2007, 12:52 PM

Brian, the 3-stringer is a Prescott. The Linings have zero to do with the ID process. the FFs and Scroll is the main focus here as far as I am concerned. We see linings on Allen and Bates Basses as well as other Olde Yanks!

If a dealer claims Prescott, he can charge more money tan if he says 'Prescott School'. Please sit back a moment and look at the possibility of those other Basses NOT being Prescott. The 'NOT' factor benefits the Dealer/seller and owner much less than the 'YES' factor. I don't care so much about the $ factor as I prefer the truth who the actual maker might be. I have looked at several 'claimed' Prescotts over the last couple of years including some with famous Jazzers as owners past and present. I am sorry to say that in the case of this Pedigree I am often the bearer of Bad News!

This means nothing to the credibility of the actual Bass or the sound of it. It just means that there were other good makers making Basses at the same time that also used outer Linings and Busetto corners. If the Scroll and especially the FFs are different, then I suspect the Bass may be not be from the head of the School but rather one of the followers.

Ken, I'm not saying you're wrong about that. I can see that there were other Prescott inflenced makers from New England in 19th Cent. that present day dealers are too quick to tag as Prescotts.

I wish there was a way to see those pics of the Big Blond Busetto bass that Barrie had on his free site a few years ago. He was calling it a Prescott and it did have many Prescott features including the scroll more similar to Nahrmann's 3 stringer, but it also had the the long, narrow swoopy f's like on the Church basses. It is this bass and the curious scroll on my bass that makes me believe that there may be more variation to actual Prescotts that we may have to take into account. Probably due to the different periods, and workers (Concord, early Deerfield, Dearborn Bros. etc.) involved in their manufacture.

Whoever the maker, I know musicians that worked w/ Arvel Shaw that have said that bass sounds fantastic. You have to admit that the side veiw and the wood on the back of that bass is similar to Nahrmann's, but the button, scroll and f's are very different. To me the f's on yours, mine, Don C.'s, the Wright Prescott all have a similar feeling to them not found on the Shaw bass. It's my memory of Barrie's Big Blond Busetto ;) that has me thinkin'. Before he posted the Shaw bass I thought maybe they were one and the same, but BBBB was different. He must have sold it and now is only veiwable on his pay site. Anyone have access to that?

BG

Phil Maneri

06-13-2007, 03:30 PM

This is all very fascinating to me. Subscribe.

David Powell

07-25-2007, 11:22 AM

I think this thread and the other one like it over at TB are why I really admire Ken Smith. He is not satisfied with blurred details and easy approximate answers that are "convenient". And I think the points made here are very well made. There is a tendency to want a definitive answer about every bass that is made while in many cases the most honest answer is that we really don't know who made some of these basses. I am convinced as Ken is that there are too many basses that don't fit the Prescott details enough but are conveniently ascribed to him due to incomplete, hopeful, or just downright sloppy research. It makes me thoroughly question the "origins" of antiques that are not well documented.

Certainly there were other American makers in Prescott's time and some of their work survives even if their name and reputation did not. That these basses are valued higher or lower because of the recognition of only one name is a bit ironic, and genuinely ignorant in terms of real value. It is quite possible that Prescott was not the best builder of that place and time, just the most prolific and best known. What I really appreciate is the time and diligence that Ken has put into this subject.

Compiling as much accurate information in one place is also a great idea. It is fantastic to have Don Carrigan's input here as well and the publications that he has supplied online about Prescott's life and career. I would encourage Ken to compile his research, notes, photos, other contributor's information etc. into something more durable than just a web forum, but I'll take it anyway he wishes to publish it.

In all of my life I have seen only one great Yankee made double bass in performance (other than one Prescott that pops up in the Atlanta Symphony). It belonged to a fellow who used to play in a local bluegrass outfit, Blue Steel, and it was attributed to Dearborn. It had the same general American or "Prescott" appearance in that it was very large. I tried very hard recently to locate the player, but it appears he no longer plays with that act and I could not find any information about him. So the only reference I can add is that somewhere in the Southeast wanders a really good blue grass bassist who has an old Dearborn bass. I'll be on the look out for him.

Very informative and educational thread here, Ken. Not that I'm bored with the English bass thread, that one has some great story lines as well. It might not have ever occurred to you that you could teach this kind of stuff at some university, but given what you have to share in direct first-hand observation, I'm certainly glad that you post it in a forum. :)

Anselm Hauke

10-28-2007, 04:17 PM

ken,
what do think is this:
http://cgi.ebay.it/Antico-Contrabbasso-fine-800-Pennsylvania_W0QQitemZ300164703747QQihZ020QQcatego ryZ623QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
?

Ken Smith

10-28-2007, 07:00 PM

ken,
what do think is this:
http://cgi.ebay.it/Antico-Contrabbasso-fine-800-Pennsylvania_W0QQitemZ300164703747QQihZ020QQcatego ryZ623QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
?

It's... a Bass!

You would think that with a claim of being an American Bass and from Pa. no doubt they would at least say why or refer to a label or some markings for an explanation. To me, it passes for a Germanic type Bass without much question in my mind.

Hey, maybe it's an Italian bass but they are too embarrassed to admit it. Blame it on the Yanks..

Ken Smith

02-10-2008, 10:59 AM

Has anyone here ever seen a Bass by Calvin Baker? There is one pictured in the Elgar book and looks like a German Gamba design.

C.Baker trained and/or worked with Asa White. I have seen a Bass that was by Asa White the same day I dropped off my Mystery Bass at Biase's almost 4 years ago and only vaguely remember the Bass. It was a small 3/4 or 5/8 and had a dark varnish and a Flatback.

I have mentioned before that the Scroll on the 'White Bass although smaller to match the Bass was nearly identical to my Scroll which is on a full sized Bass.

Although my Bass has some English features as well as an early French style outline, American has also been guessed on it several times but with no match other than the White Scroll and by the way, the FFs on the C.Baker Bass which look close.

One of the reasons I never considered New England as a real possibility was became I have never seen an American Bass as European looking as mine. The thing to know here is that the Boston and NY school of Violin makers were mainly European immigrants that trained in Violin making before coming to USA. Both Asa and Jay White though were trained by their father John who made about 12 or so violins and is noted as the first Violin Maker in Boston but an amateur. Jay and Asa are I think credited as being the first professional makers in that area. The Gemunder Bros. George and August came later. George from France and August from German. Both initially trained by their father in Germany. George also worked for Vuillaume before coming to USA.

One thing that concerns me is that many of the Basses in the Elgar book are falsely listed. He accepted pictures in the mail with any named attribution and published it as fact. The 5-String Gagliano Bass is actually an English Bass and has been sold at least twice since as an English Panormo by one of the sons. One of the large d'Salo Basses listed that's in a Canadian Museum is old Brescian but not d'Salo.

Can anyone here post a good scanned pic of the Elgar Calvin Baker Bass? (not the William Baker, that's English and it's the real deal as well)

Maury Clubb

03-03-2008, 01:07 PM

A. Gemunder 1846, Springfield MA

Ken Smith

03-03-2008, 01:14 PM

A. Gemunder 1846, Springfield MA

Beautiful Bass. Thanks for posting. If you can, show us the Back, Ribs and Scroll as well.

Maury Clubb

03-07-2008, 02:12 AM

Note the trap door (decommissioned) for sound post adjustment.

Maury Clubb

03-07-2008, 11:58 AM

I forgot to include the back picture - here it is.

Eric Hochberg

03-31-2008, 08:38 PM

Found this in a story (http://www.bayweekly.com/year06/issuexiv22/leadxiv22_2.html) about Joe Byrd, Charlie's Brother.

Brian Glassman

03-31-2008, 10:44 PM

I played a Gemunder at Arnold's shop a couple of months ago....It was so sweet sounding and responsive I was speachless.

Ken Smith

03-31-2008, 11:07 PM

I played a Gemunder at Arnold's shop a couple of months ago....It was so sweet sounding and responsive I was speachless.

The French looking Gemunder at his shop was made by George after he left Vuillaume and moved to USA. The one pictured above may be a George as well. All the August ones I have seen were Gamba. I have one now as well but it is in a year long restoration. It is August Martin Sr., Georges older brother. Completely different style Bass and equally different sounding.

The one above (and now below) may possibly be the exact same Bass. George is only known to have made two Basses. Maybe Arnold who knows the current owner can confirm if this is the exact same Bass in both pictures old and new. They look like the exact same maker and maybe the exact same Bass with a few decades between pictures.
http://www.bayweekly.com/year06/issuexiv22/art22/JoeByrd/JoeByrdbass1960s.jpghttp://www.aesbass.com/images/gallery/Gemunder_front.jpg

I played some type of Gemunder about 15-20 years ago in Anaheim at the NAMM show at a Guitar Player magazine breakfast. There was a Piano/Bass duo playing and somehow after not playing at all for many years (retired from the game), someone convinced me to sit in. The Bass I played I was told was a Gemunder made in NY. I don't remember if it was George, August or the sons. The Varnish was darker and different than both the George that Arnold has and my August as well.

I think mine and the one Arnold had were made in Mass. (Springfield for August Sr. and maybe Boston for George as he came to the states from Paris after his brother came over from Germany). They both moved to USA within a year or so of each other and both moved to NY separately (1852/George, 1859/August).

I don't have pics of mine to post because it was in dis-repair and unplayable when I bought it. Arnold and I both agreed it would be best if the Bass was shown only after it was restored and playable. It's long and slenderish as compared to a Prescott but similar flame type American Sugar Maple Back and Ribs often seen on Prescotts.

Brian Glassman

04-03-2008, 02:47 AM

The French looking Gemunder at his shop was made by George after he left Vuillaume and moved to USA. The one pictured above may be a George as well. All the August ones I have seen were Gamba. I have one now as well but it is in a year long restoration. It is August Martin Sr., Georges older brother. Completely different style Bass and equally different sounding.

The one above (and now below) may possibly be the exact same Bass. George is only known to have made two Basses. Maybe Arnold who knows the current owner can confirm if this is the exact same Bass in both pictures old and new. They look like the exact same maker and maybe the exact same Bass with a few decades between pictures.
http://www.bayweekly.com/year06/issuexiv22/art22/JoeByrd/JoeByrdbass1960s.jpghttp://www.aesbass.com/images/gallery/Gemunder_front.jpg

I think mine and the one Arnold had were made in Mass. (Springfield for August Sr. and maybe Boston for George as he came to the states from Paris after his brother came over from Germany). They both moved to USA within a year or so of each other and both moved to NY separately (1852/George, 1859/August).

Hmmm... they do look really similar. I would think they were from the same hand, but after looking at these 2 pics for a long time I suspect they are different instruments.

BG

Arnold Schnitzer

04-03-2008, 01:14 PM

Ken Smith

04-03-2008, 02:59 PM

According to the article on Joe Byrd, his bass is labeled 1875. The one in my shop is 1852. I think the model is the same, but I see differences in the shading. Also, the history of ownership is different.

Then that must be the 2nd Bass George Snr. made. If not, the book is wrong about him making only 2 Basses in his time.

Ken Smith

03-30-2009, 07:13 AM

I have seen many Basses called a Prescott and have disagreed with several of them. Mainly because of the FFs and Scroll. They shapes were all similar (Either Gamba or Busetto) but only the general shape.

The two FFs I know of are the sweeping curling ones seen on his early Church Basses and a few Cello model Basses he made early on. The scrolls on the early Basses although similar on top, differ slightly at the bottom of the pegbox. The other style had the shorter wide FFs like on the majority we have seen including Don C's (cut shoulders and replaced Scroll) and my Prescott (cut shoulders and C-bouts).

My question is this and I do say question because having not been there in person 180-190 years ago, how can we really know? Ok, my question is, is there possible a period between the early Deerfield Basses and the lated Concord Basses where the FFs were somewhat different than either of the two model mentioned above? Could there also be a few Scrolls made that differ too?

There are a few basses that I have seen in person that I did not agree with because of these different FFs so I must question myself here. Two of them were personally repaired by Jeff Bollbach so he has seen the insides of these two as well as many others that are within the regular modeling most of us agree with as being 'real' Prescott.

The Basses that I am referring to belonged to Lafaro, Shaw and one still owned by Reggie Workman (one of my former teachers) as well as one other owned by a NY State dealer/player.

It was the last one mentioned above of which had to have its Back replaced during restoration that I played most recently and considered at the least 'Prescott School'. That Bass according to Jeff looked very Prescottish internally, where it counts. The FFs and Scroll are different than the typical ones used but still, is it possible that there were Basses made between the periods that had different FFs and Scrolls? The LaFaro bass now has a replaced Scroll made in the Kolstein shop that resembles a Prescott but it's not like the original one that was on there before which I have seen a picture of with Scotty. This possible 'middle' period of Prescott (if such a thing exists) had variations in the FFs and Scrolls from Bass to Bass unlike his earlier period and later period both of which were fairly consistent.

I say this with as mush doubt as I do possibility that these four basses or any others that are similar can be or not be actual Prescotts. I have seen 3 different J.B. Allen basses who worked in Springfield, Mass. and I must say that without better knowledge, these too would be called Prescott basses. I have not seen many Basses by Dearborn who worked for and bought the Prescott shop in the end (operated it only 5 more years or so) and I have not seen but maybe one Tewkesbury Bass so I can't point to them that easily.

I am just mentioning this to keep your minds open. I recently bought a 3rd Bultitude bass bow that was so different I had to send pictures to England to see if anyone could confirm it. Luckily I heard back thru another dealer from a Bow maker still alive today that knew Bultitude personally. He mentioned a remark by him like "I will leave something for the historians to figure out". This late Bow of his is just that. Sue Lipkins who is restoring it sees Bultitude all over it but nothing like any other Bass bow we have seen.

Our own Electric Basses have evolved as well since the late 1970s but I was there and can attest to them and with reason why each model and design change was made. Is there someone here alive today that worked for Prescott between 1820 and 1835 that could bear witness? For this reason we must speculate that if the internal work is similar but the design is not exact like the other then the possibility may be there that the maker experimented. It just doesn't follow his consistent pattern of work in my mind between the first and last Basses. This fact is blinding me!

If those other basses are actually Prescott's then they were made after the Cello models and before the Gamba and Busetto patterns with the shorter wide FFs. Either that or he made one off's on occasion which I highly doubt.

Dating them as the in between models would push back the dates of all of the others with the wider FFs, no?

Ken Smith

04-06-2009, 11:14 AM

Jason Sypher just found this and sent it over. An early Deerfield Prescott. This is rare because it has the Cello FFs he used and I have only seen them on the 4/4 cello model Basses. This is a Busetto with the Cello FFs.. A first for me..

http://www.metmuseum.org/Imageshare/mi/large/MI1980.492.jpg

With this info from the Met Museum (http://www.metmuseum.org/works_of_art/collection_database/musical_instruments/bass_viol_abraham_prescott/objectview.aspx?page=6&sort=4&sortdir=desc&keyword=&fp=1&dd1=18&dd2=0&vw=1&collID=18&OID=180014950&vT=1);

This information may change as the result of ongoing research.
* This database record may be in completed or unedited.

Attributed to Abraham Prescott
Object Name Bass Viol
Date ca. 1820
Geography Deerfield, New Hampshire, United States
Medium Wood
Dimensions Total L. 200 cm (78-3/4 in.); Body L. 120.6 cm (47-7/16 in.); String L. 109.6 cm (43-3/16 in.); Upper bouts 52.7 cm (20-3/4 in.); Center bouts 28 cm (11-1/16 in.); Lower bouts 72.9 cm (28-11/16 in.)
Credit Line Purchase, Rogers Fund, 1980
Accession Number1980.492

Thanks Jason..

Brian Glassman

04-09-2009, 12:16 AM

Ken Smith

04-09-2009, 01:18 AM

Hey Ken, this relates back to our discussion in posts 20-24 of this thread. I did see a light colored, large busetto w/ cello f's and a Prescott-like scroll, like this bass, at Barrie's once about 5 yrs ago. Perhaps they were the same model, that would make two.

BG

But, not all sweeping FFs with Busetto corners are Prescott either. The other Yankee makers copied just about every part of Prescott in one way or another. The Scrolls of Prescott are quite consistent from what I have seen with only 2 slight variations. If the Scroll is original to that bass and its not a Prescott Scroll, chances are it's one of the other makers. Just my opinion here.

Ken Smith

07-13-2009, 02:52 PM

This was posted in another thread (http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=1132&page=2) but thought it would be valuable as well to copy over to this one.

As I've mentioned on that "other" bass site, I believe the rounded lower corners and f-hole designs on that instrument are derived from the viola d'amore family. Another thread here showed a bass by Woodbury and Burditt (http://www.nahrmannbass.com/bb/index.php?topic=15.0)that also shows some of these more exaggerated viola d'amore type features (for example, compare it to this viola d'amore (http://lh3.ggpht.com/HayleyKilroy/Rwn4f_TeWrI/AAAAAAAABkY/VGh5zgeYorM/DSC01845.JPG?imgmax=512)), but with standard f-holes. This bass makes me wonder if at least part of the inspiration for the rounded lower corners on many early American basses came from true viola d'amore style instruments, rather than simply Mittenwald basses with rounded lower corners. Here (http://www.baroqueinstruments.com/busch.htm)is a modern reproduction of a violone made in Nuremberg in 1640 with strong viola d'amore features as another comparison to the Woodbury and Burditt instrument.

Incidentally, while looking up some stuff on Woodbury and Burditt (and it seems their basses may have been actually made by William Conant (http://brattleborohistory.com/antiques-fossils/william-a-conants-violins.html)) I found this interesting notice from the "Fourth Exhibition of the Massachusetts Charitable Mechanic Association (http://books.google.com/books?id=8QwAAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA128&lpg=PA128&dq=woodbury+and+burditt+bass&source=bl&ots=f--zmlymO1&sig=tgtTNlSAOoItcjc-EzH490V0878&hl=en&ei=3GRbStLRL47asgPnxOCDCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5)" in 1844, mentioning a musicial instrument competition that included instruments from Woodbury and Burditt, Prescott, Dearborn and others. This notice (http://books.google.com/books?id=6wwAAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA2-PA93&dq=prescott+bass+viol&lr=) from their first exhibition in 1837 mentions basses and cellos by Prescott, the Dearborns, J.B. Allen, and Henry Prentiss. It also mentions that, regarding the basses and cellos:"They have been constructed upon such models of instruments of foreign manufacture, as the makers chanced to meet with; and, where these models have been departed from, the changes have all been made without reference to any other use of the instrument, than as mere accompaniment to the voices in common psalmody."

Brian Glassman

07-23-2009, 01:15 AM

Incidentally, while looking up some stuff on Woodbury and Burditt (and it seems their basses may have been actually made by William Conant (http://brattleborohistory.com/antiques-fossils/william-a-conants-violins.html)) I found this interesting notice from the "Fourth Exhibition of the Massachusetts Charitable Mechanic Association (http://books.google.com/books?id=8QwAAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA128&lpg=PA128&dq=woodbury+and+burditt+bass&source=bl&ots=f--zmlymO1&sig=tgtTNlSAOoItcjc-EzH490V0878&hl=en&ei=3GRbStLRL47asgPnxOCDCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5)" in 1844, mentioning a musicial instrument competition that included instruments from Woodbury and Burditt, Prescott, Dearborn and others. This notice (http://books.google.com/books?id=6wwAAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA2-PA93&dq=prescott+bass+viol&lr=) from their first exhibition in 1837 mentions basses and cellos by Prescott, the Dearborns, J.B. Allen, and Henry Prentiss. It also mentions that, regarding the basses and cellos:"They have been constructed upon such models of instruments of foreign manufacture, as the makers chanced to meet with; and, where these models have been departed from, the changes have all been made without reference to any other use of the instrument, than as mere accompaniment to the voices in common psalmody."

Ken, very interesting reading. THNX!

Martin Sheridan

11-22-2009, 09:18 PM

[quote=Ken Smith;258]The Banjo guy? No, never met him. All I have to offer at the moment is the Batchelder Bass but enjoy talking about it.

Ken,
David Bromberg is probably the formost authority on American Violin makers and probably possesses the largest collection. Back in the 60s he was on many popular albums as a back up player; guitar and sometimes fiddle. He later attended and graduated from the Chicago School of Violin Making. He used to come into my shop fairly often when I was in downtown Chicago. He was traveling all over the world then buying and selling instruments and bows. Last I heard he had opened a violin shop in the east.
Great Thread!

Ken Smith

11-23-2009, 01:06 AM

[quote=Ken Smith;258]The Banjo guy? No, never met him. All I have to offer at the moment is the Batchelder Bass but enjoy talking about it.

Ken,
David Bromberg is probably the foremost authority on American Violin makers and probably possesses the largest collection. Back in the 60s he was on many popular albums as a back up player; guitar and sometimes fiddle. He later attended and graduated from the Chicago School of Violin Making. He used to come into my shop fairly often when I was in downtown Chicago. He was traveling all over the world then buying and selling instruments and bows. Last I heard he had opened a violin shop in the east.
Great Thread!

But, does this guy have 'anything' at all to do with Basses? I have never heard his name mentioned associated with a single bass, ever.

Most of the American makers that made basses made basses. A few made mainly Violins and some basses. The Wenberg book has about the most published on American makers than all the English and European books combined. Stil, I find some makers missing like the actual Batchelder that made my old bass.

As with any book, if they made mainly basses, they might be left out of books when written as the names are not known about to them.

Boston's mid 19th century Asa and Jay White made both as did the elder August and George Gemunder did in Springfield Mass. before moving to New York.

Martin Sheridan

11-23-2009, 07:36 AM

Ken Smith

11-23-2009, 09:12 AM

Not as far as I know. He was interested in my basses in a general way, but he's really a violin collector.

Thanks for bringing so much information together on the American makers, there's a real hole in the knowledge about bass makers generally.

The VSA Journal had an article on some Germans who made basses in Pennsylvania some years back. The black bass above attributed to Prescott looks very similar to their work.

Well, it is believed that the Prescott design is generally German taken from I believe a Hornsteiner or something similar. There were many Germans and English settlers in New England that made Violin family instruments. Mostly Violins and Basses. I have heard of and seen very few if any Violas or Cellos from this period. Cellos in the way of Church Basses yes but standard measured Violincellos we see hardly any from the 19th century Yankee makers. The Violins are all basically European in design. The Basses however have their own Yankee flair. I must exclude the first generation Gemunder brothers that came over made what they knew from France and maybe Germany. George Gemunder of the 2 Basses I have seen are totally French in design and Varnish as he came over here straight from Vuillaume's shop. His older Brother August however of the 2 Basses I know of his (one of which I own) are closer to a Gagliano if anything. Long body with flatback but shorter FFs that you would see on a Neapolitan bass. I am guessing he may have seen one as an example but made smaller FFs for tone and design preference. This Bass looks so Italian I could re-label it and no one would question the provenance.

It is also believer than Prescott used an only English Viol for his long Scroll/pegbox design. His basses were all originally 3-string from what I have seen and the heads can easily take 5 or even 6 tuners in them.

I guess this is what you get generally when makers partly copy and partly think on their own. The first time I saw the G. Gemunder bass I asked if it was an old Bernardel! The first time I saw the G.Gemunder I thought it was Gagliano school bass. The later made NY Gemunder Basses look mainly German to me, imported from there and finished up over here. Without the Label they are German shop basses for the most part. If they were made here then there was no originality at all in the design as they are perfect models of the German basses from the end of the 19th to the early 20th century.

Well anyway, the more you see, the more you know. Thus is the case as long as what you compare them to are correctly known models/makers as well.

Arnold Schnitzer

11-23-2009, 12:47 PM

I have read that Klotz' designs were the basis for Prescott, not Hornsteiner's.

Ken Smith

11-23-2009, 03:09 PM

I have read that Klotz' designs were the basis for Prescott, not Hornsteiner's.

Yes, I have read that too but the last time I saw a Klotz bass it was actually an old Hornsteiner to my eye. And, which Klotz? Klotz was a famous family and the founding family of the Mittenwald school. Why not name all old Mittenwald basses Klotz? I don't know which are real Klotz's, Neuners or Hornsteiners. They all look alike to me. :confused:

Hey, I would love to see a REAL Confirmed Mathius Klotz Double Bass. The last tine I saw something that looked like a M. Klotz, it had a famous Italian name.

Arnold Schnitzer

11-23-2009, 08:59 PM

I'm pretty sure Prescott pre-dated the Hornsteiner shop.

Ken Smith

11-24-2009, 12:32 AM

I'm pretty sure Prescott pre-dated the Hornsteiner shop.

Not really so Maestro. The Hornsteiners date from the early 18th century and the commercial firm of Neuner & Hornsteiner dates from 1750, about 70 years before any recorded Prescott bass. Perhaps here in USA we have only seen the later made basses as the old ones are stuck in the Central European Orchestras and not going anywhere. The Neuner family dates from even a century earlier, the 17th.

Remember that Thread I started called Where are They?? (http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=1132)

I started that Thread because I knew there were old Mittenwald basses by these families but rarely seen here in USA or on the internet anywhere. They were made but probably scarce in comparision and just not available for sale that we ever see.

Just because a bass is very old, large and has lower rounded corners (http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=923&highlight=busetto) does not make it a Klotz unless it was made by one of that family.

Martin Sheridan

11-24-2009, 09:24 AM

Ken Smith

11-24-2009, 11:01 AM

I had read that the Busetto cornered Prescott basses were a copy of a Klotz. The Klotz family continued generation after generation. I think I remember seeing a Klotz violin from the early 20th century. Some think the first Klotz studied in Cremona with Amati.

Yes Martin, think! It is written that he (the first Klotz maker) studied with someone (I will have to go back and find the name) in Italy that came from Fussen I believe. On the word or name 'Busetto' itself, this I find it hard to swallow. In the Elgar book he doesn't call it Busetto corners. He calls it 'lower rounded corners'. It was later I believe that some bass was named after the maker Giovanni Maria del Busetto. Busetto being a town in Italy. From reading about that maker I see no reason to believe he ever made a Double Bass much less that German looking one named after him that is either in Japan or Berlin. That bass has the form of early Mittenwald basses. The Bat wing FFs are Central European as well, not Italian. If that bass looks Italian in workmanship internally then maybe it's because the early Klotz maker Mathias trained in Italy. This is confirmed Klotz instrument here; http://www.myeasybass.com/publications/p_klotz.html

When looking at the work of del Busetto, what little has been found it seems way to early in time to be anything like that big bat winged F hole bass they named after him. Now what we have is confusion. Maybe started by the dealers as far as who made what or trained with whom including Stainer and the term 'Busetto corner'. What a mess!!:confused::eek:

Martin Sheridan

11-25-2009, 05:06 PM

Ken Smith

11-25-2009, 05:35 PM

I have never found any evidence of basses by Busetto either. We don't know how many studied with Amati because they are not mentioned in the census of his household if they didn't live with him, so I don't think anyone really knows where Klotz learned, but they like to make that Italian connection.
By the way, my cousin is married to an Italian, can I claim my basses as Italian? Sounds like a close enough connection to me, and I could raise my prices.
One that I find amusing is Morrelli who was a German who just used that name. Even his stuff brings more than a comparable German maker from the 30s even though everyone in the biz knows he was German. Any other time I'd remember his real name, but right now that would require me to think; it's been a long day and I want a drink before I do anymore thinking.
best,

The Morelli basses were made in a German shop or two or three (over the years), imported into USA and THEN labeled Morelli. Some were stamped in Germany during production I suspect by request of the importer. The maker or shop recorded was Karl Hermann.

On Klotz it is known to a degree that M.Klotz the eldest Mittenwald maker trained with Fussen maker Giovanni Railich that had settled in Padua Italy. Klotz is believed to have trained first in Fussen or Vils or maybe even with Stainer and then spent 6 years in Padua before returning to Mittenwald.

The Families of Klotz, Neuner, Hornsteiner and Baader came one after another sometimes working with each other, in competition of each other or independently. Mittenwald for some time was THE world center for Violin production. This is one of the tangled webs we find in this business. Who did what when or where and to who or with whom.

I bet the Germans over there today could easily put this mystery in order much easier then we can but still, many things were just not well recorded.

As far as what Bass or BassES Prescott actually copied, dig up his grave and ask him!:p

My main point is that it's a bit irresponsible in this business to point every thing 'Bass' from Mittenwald to the Klotz family. They were first but were not alone for long as in the early 18th century, the demand grew as did the makers, families and firms providing instruments.

Arnold Schnitzer

11-26-2009, 09:47 AM

Ken Smith

11-26-2009, 01:29 PM

I was in Mittenwald several years back, and walking around this most amazingly picturesque Alps town, I came upon a beautiful statue in the center of town. Who, you ask, is portrayed there? Matthias Klotz. Maybe somebody with better internet skills can find & post a picture here. BTW, Ken, I think you are right about Hornsteiner. I believe I was thinking of the more modern, commercial Neuner & Hornsteiner basses.

Well, like I mentioned in my other Thread Where are they?? (http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=1132), these old Mittenwald basses are hard to find. Yes, the commercial ones made for export over the last 100 years or so are not so hard to find but the ones from before 1850 and back a century or so more are mostly still over there I would imagine.
(http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=1132)

Arnold Schnitzer

11-26-2009, 02:16 PM

Here is the statue.

http://www.matthias-klotz.de/img/3-0/3-0-Denkmal200.jpg

Martin Sheridan

11-26-2009, 07:40 PM

The newest Howard Core catalog has the picture from another angle.

Klotz was such a big name and there were so many of them that they were also 'copied' in the 19th and 20th century; mass produced crappy violins containing Kotz labels and of course basses too. I saw one about thirty years ago that was clearly a commercial bass with a false Klotz label. It was a good bass however.
Ken, I have a feeling that you're right and that many of those basses are still in orchestras over there. Maybe our German friend can enlighten us on that.

Eric Hochberg

01-11-2010, 06:44 PM

Ken Smith

01-11-2010, 11:35 PM

So, Ken, on the TB discussion about the now Upton Prescott in the Hawkes thread, looking at the scroll of that one, it has more turns than the few other Prescott scrolls I've seen pictured including yours, Nahrmann's, etc. It reminds me of the Batchelder scroll a bit. Do you think that is an original Prescott scroll, and if not, who might have made it, assuming it's original to the bass' time period?

I think it's Yankee but Darricott and Willard and many others made basses too. Where are they and all the other makers? Masquerading as Prescott's because it's easier to sell if it is.

In my opinion, I have seen more NON-Prescott's named Prescott than actual Prescotts themselves.

A customer came over once and showed me his Prescott. Oops.. Sorry, Not a Prescott that I can see. Shaw, Scotty, Reggie and now this as well as the other bass they have in pieces. How could Prescott have made all these various bass models, F-holes and Scrolls and the other maker's basses are still in the closet?

The early Cello models with sweeping FFs, one with those FFs and rounded cornered 4/4 (aka Busetto) and the other patterns with the short wide FFs that are connceted. Those are Prescotts. The long medium FFs, not his I think. Scrolls for sale? Why not! The French and the Germans did it!

If these were Strads selling in the Millions, it would all be sorted out. At these prices it's still a bass for the money and not a Pedigree purchase. A bass with no name is worth less than a similar grade bass with a name. That's just how it goes. Ca ching....

Ken Smith

03-11-2010, 09:32 PM

As far as I know, I only have one older American made bass. The label has G. Kschier- PA-I found Kschier in one of my books-George and son made basses in the early 1900's using domestic wood- You have anything else on the Kschier basses?

What Book are you reading this from?

"Kschier, George & Sons; Vln maker, repairman and dealer. Firm was est. c.1855. Later was named Kschier bros. George worked there c.1907-1915. Broad Strad model. Brown oil Varnish. Domestic wood. Primarily repairs." (Wenberg)

I would say better than a 50/50 chance that they imported basses from Germany and re-labeled them like the Gemunder's did in NY from what I just read. Does not sound like Bass makers to me.Show me the bass, please!

Ken McKay

04-14-2010, 12:22 AM

Ken Smith

04-14-2010, 12:30 AM

Same exact bass. Sold at Auction to a UK dealer and ended up for sale at Robertson's. I don't know who bought it but the 'asking' price was a record high for a Prescott.

Craig Regan

05-31-2010, 07:23 PM

Ken Smith

05-31-2010, 09:04 PM

Brian, this could be the bass you were talking about:

http://www.basscellar.com/inventory.html

They have three Prescotts in their inventory, scroll through and you will find it.

Not at all and for many reasons. That is not a busetto, not a large model and not the sweeping 'Prescott' Cello FFs.

I think another one (Prescott) just came up for sale recently and is up at Arnold's. Right now there are at least 9 Prescott/Prescott school basses around for sale. Some in my opinion are not actual Prescotts but similar period Yankee made basses.

Craig Regan

05-31-2010, 09:17 PM

Not at all and for many reasons. That is not a busetto, not a large model and not the sweeping 'Prescott' Cello FFs.

Its not the gamba bass that appears when the page comes up. The busetto with sweeping FFs is listed to the left in the inventory, for $45,500. Unique looking bass!

Ken Smith

05-31-2010, 09:31 PM

Its not the gamba bass that appears when the page comes up. The busetto with sweeping FFs is listed to the left in the inventory, for $45,500. Unique looking bass!

Well, I have never seen a Prescott with a date on it, only attributed. Also, I have a copy of the sales records thru 1828 from Prescott and there were very few Double Basses made before 1820. I am not 100% convinced about that bass being an actual Prescott. The Scroll is old Yankee but not Prescott and the FFs although similar are not as well, to me eye at least.

Nando Raio

09-29-2010, 01:34 AM

Here is a few pictures of my 1880's George E.Bryant Bass....Yankee's Bass!
George's great great grand daughter sent me 2 pictures of him at his shop, I thought would be cool to post them,

Ken Smith

09-29-2010, 01:48 AM

Here is a few pictures of my 1880's George E.Bryant Bass....Yankee's Bass!
George's great great grand daughter sent me 2 pictures of him at his shop, I thought would be cool to post them,

The pictures of that bass reveal a turning point in Yankee Bass making. This bass is a few decades after the arrival or the old Gemunder Brothers. They came separately a few years apart and from different countries as George was working in France with Vuillaume and August came from Germany, his homeland. They later both moved to New York, again separately but the next generation of Gemunder's collaborated as well.

The reason I mention them as seeing a Cello-like shouldered Violin Cornered roundback shows a much higher art of bass making than seen in the Prescott Era. Also, many of the Boston school makers were European trained Violin makers. George Gemunder made 2 Vuillaume model basses shortly after arriving in New England. August made a pair of Gamba roundbacks (one of which I own) and at least one roundback smaller gamba shaped bass. In NY, the son's turned to importing basses from Germany and concentrated mainly on Violins.

This Bass reminds me more of Gemunder influence rather than Prescott with the exception of the tuner plates which again, look beautiful. Enjoy it..

Nando Raio

09-29-2010, 11:40 AM

Ken Smith

09-29-2010, 11:46 AM

Thanks Ken for the info. I don't really know anything about August and Gemunder, were they Bryant's as well?
I talked to the great great granddaughter and she traced her family back to the 1700's in England, very interesting, George Bryant passed away in 1916.
This bass sounds more like an Italian bass than anything else, the back is really alive, you can feel it on every note, its really easy to play even with the string String length been over 42
Upper Bouts 20 inches
Middle Bouts 14 inches
Lower Bouts 25.9 inches

Large 3/4 or a small 7/8?

Actually it is August Gemunder Snr. and George Gemunder Snr.. They were two makers that mover to Mass. about 1846 and 1848. George came from France where he was working and August from Germany. Both originally trained by their father in Germany. Your Bass reminds me of their work in some ways.

Brian Glassman

10-01-2010, 04:14 AM

Beautiful bass! Thanks for the interesting post.

Nando Raio

10-07-2010, 02:30 PM

Robin just posted some interesting newspaper articles on George E. Bryant, check out this link, scroll down to see it, part of AMERICAN HISTORY
http://thehofmannandbryantfamilyhistory.blogspot.com/

Brian Glassman

10-07-2010, 11:15 PM

Ken Smith

10-08-2010, 12:21 AM

Nando, Much earlier in this thread Ken has said that the scroll on my Prescott Gamba may not be original because it is not typical of a Prescott scroll. However it does appear to be very old and although the brass cheek plates are wider than on most Prescotts it does have the typical Prescott-like Bee Sting shape at the top which are on your Bryant as well.
In fact it looks much like the brass cheek plates on your Bryant! Tuners looks similar as well.

Perhaps it's a Bryant scroll? What do you think Ken?

The back of the two scrolls are not as similar, however. I'll have to post a pic of the back of the scroll to compare.

I have no idea who made that Scroll. I just don't think it's a Prescott Scroll. Old Yankee basses from Prescott's time were 3-string. Many Basses get their heads chopped off. Back then I am sure the Luthiers preferred replacing the entire neck/scroll over doing a neck graft and saving the original.

Nice basses though, both of them.

Ken Smith

10-19-2011, 04:36 AM

I don't know why this Bass has never been pictured here. I must have over looked it somehow. Here are a few temporary pics of the J.B. Allen.

Someday before long, as time allows, I will get a full set of pics of this bass up on my DB web page.

The workmanship, condition and masterful *restoration (*by Robert McIntosh, 1999) of this Yankee Bass has to be one of the finest specimens ever seen in the combined categories. The sound of this beauty matches its other attributes as well.

Mike Karn

10-19-2011, 04:09 PM

Ken Smith

10-19-2011, 04:52 PM

Ken - Seeing that picture of Arnold's JB Allen made me think of Phil Palombi's Allen. Here are a couple of pictures i found, hopefully they're not too small
2218
2220

Ok, for some reason the picture of the labels doesn't enlarge, but this (http://www.philpalombi.com/bonus/) page has several larger pictures, just scroll down

Yes, I know of that bass and one other JB Allen as well. Thanks for posting it here. I have to say though that the one I just posted looks to be in better overall condition that the other two, this one included. Mine has its original varnish cleaned and polished, the original tuners and plates with a 4th tuner for the 'D' added parallel to the 'A' tuner and sharing a split shaft as well. The Back crossbars were replaced with similar sized ones as the original. Plus, it is the one written up in ISB's Bass World in 2004. The strings on the bass here are 12 year old Flexocor 92s so not the best sound it can have but the strings were barely played on in those 12 years.

Anselm Hauke

10-19-2011, 05:28 PM

@Ken: The scroll is a new one?

Ken Smith

10-19-2011, 11:25 PM

@Ken: The scroll is a new one?

The Scroll, Tuners (3 of 4), Plates and Varnish and everything else except the endpin, soundpost, braces, bridge, fingerboard, tailpiece saddle and strings are original. I have the original endpin, saddle, fingerboard, and bridge. The past owner kept the 3-string tailpiece.

For the scrolls, here are 3 to compare from JB Allen, the only 3 basses I know by him. The two with the unusual Gears are from 1841 (mine and David Oberg's). The one with German quarter plates (Phil Palombi's) is from 1842.
http://www.fretshop.com/webpics/dobergbass2.JPGhttp://www.smithbassforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2229&d=1319141265http://www.philpalombi.com/images/bass_photos/IMG_1265.jpg

Any Photoshopper's care to size these and post them side by side to compare better?

Eric Swanson

10-20-2011, 10:04 AM

Not that the rest of the renovated Allen bass isn't just lovely, but I really dig those custom-made machines. Who did that lovely machining? Who designed the detailing?

Ken Smith

10-20-2011, 11:41 AM

Not that the rest of the renovated Allen bass isn't just lovely, but I really dig those custom-made machines. Who did that lovely machining? Who designed the detailing?

Except for the D and A gear sharing a split shaft, the gears are 100% original. One extra gear was made as a spare when the restoration was done just in case but those gears and designs were by J.B. Allen. I think Arnold mentioned that the Smithsonian has a telescope and/or a microscope that he made. It looks like the Basses he made were to show off his skills.

I played in an Orchestra last night with 8 basses (wow, what thunder!). One was a large German bass (Fussen is my attribution) with a small lower rounded corner (busetto) like the upper of the Allen and an upper molding quasi-violin but in the molding strips like a semi-squared off busetto. The Scroll was long as well. Prescott seems to have copied a Mittenwald bass for his models but the long Scroll box is reported to be after an English Viol. The Allen has some similarities to the Prescotts as do most Yankee basses but shows a level of skill we have yet to see on a Prescott. I am sure Allen knew what a Prescott bass was as it looks obvious. I doubt however that they had worked together at any point.

Arnold Schnitzer

10-23-2011, 09:28 AM

Ken Smith

10-23-2011, 10:47 AM

I think it's interesting that the Allen bass (the one pictured above) has a top made from 15 pieces of vertical grain white pine. I've often wondered if the individual pieces were pre-bent into the approximate shape of the arching, and then joined/carved, or whether they were all glued up as 2"x2" squares and then carved into the arched shape. When looking closely at the top it seems to me there is less end grain visible than I'd expect to see. And I know there were violin makers fooling around with a sort of "coopering" technique in the 19th century (similar to the way barrels are made). J.B. went all out with the decorative aspect of that bass, even inlaying the seams. And Robbie McIntosh did a masterful job of restoring the bass and keeping it faithful to the original while enhancing its playability as a modern bass.

One of the other Allen basses above with the old Tuners is a 13pc Top I think. It seems as if this was his style. I wonder besides these 3 basses if there are more of them around. It looks so good to my eye I was surprised to learn that even the Varnish is original on this bass. Robbie mentioned to me the other day that he thought about it for a day or so taking a few deep breaths before he took the Top off knowing he would have to restore that joint as well being that the outer moldings overlapped the Top edge. The Purfling covering the joint now was made by him and looks to be walnut and maple laminated.

Ken Smith

10-26-2011, 05:31 PM

Here are the measurements of the J.B. Allen, 1841 as pictured in the 2004 ISB magazine.

Top length,........ 45 3/4"
Back to button,.. 47 1/2"

Upper Bout,....... 21 1/8"
Middle Bout,....... 16"
Lower Bout,....... 28 1/2"

Rib Depth inside the Purfling that hides the Top/Rib joint (floating Rib width):
8 1/4" at the bottom Block gently tapering to 8" at the angle break. Then tapering from 8" at the break to 7 1/8" at the Neck.

String Length, 42"

In reading the Article written about 5 years after the restoration, Robbie talks about the sound and how it has matured but states it's not loud bass! Currently, this bass is so loud than when I play it in my office with the other basses in the racks around it, it vibrates all of them more than almost any other bass I have with exception to the 4/4 Tarr and Panormo School basses. The bass is LOUD now, but in a sweet way as far as tone goes. The strings on the bass are Flexocor 92, put on in 1999. I am sure the bass can get even louder with different types of strings.

Ken Smith

01-05-2012, 04:54 PM

Ok, I am putting on the finishing touches of the JB Allen 'page. Here's the Link (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/allen/) if any one's interested. Enjoy.. ;)

Tim Bishop

01-05-2012, 07:30 PM

Wow! That is just beautiful.

Arnold Schnitzer

01-06-2012, 08:46 AM

Very nicely done, Ken, with one exception: There is nothing Prescott-like in that scroll. It is totally unique.

Ken Smith

01-06-2012, 09:20 AM

Very nicely done, Ken, with one exception: There is nothing Prescott-like in that scroll. It is totally unique.

I see some similarities but the Allen is on another level.

The small step at the bottom of the Peg Box reminds me of Prescott.
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/prescott/images/pres_scrollleft.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/allen/images/scroll-left.jpghttp://www.smithbassforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2229&d=1319141265

Sorry for the size differences.

Ken Smith

01-06-2012, 09:35 AM

As the story goes, the Prescott's with the lower rounded corners (or all of them) were copied from an old Mittenwald Klotz-scholl bass, so were the gear plates of the Allen bass as far as that loop at the top. To compare, look at the Allen beside 3 other old Mittenwalders posted here on the Forum;

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/allen/images/scroll-right.jpghttp://www.smithbassforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1597&d=1273597622http://www.smithbassforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1636&d=1274452623http://www.smithbassforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1695&d=1277501886

Although not two plates on these basses are identical, they all have the rounded loop at the top.

So, mix a Prescott with a Klotz-school bass, refine it x10 (:D) and there you have it, 'Americana' by JB Allen.. ;)

Ken Smith

02-10-2013, 12:37 AM

I just spotted a 4th JB Allen bass on FB. (2nd from left with an extension)

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/222040_179239062126460_5783255_n.jpg

I don't know who it is or what bass section but they are all nice looking basses.

Richard Korn

07-08-2013, 01:20 PM

Hi Ken,
Just spent a long evening reading all the posts on your list about Abraham Prescott and early American bass makers, so I decided to join the group.
I also have the Prescott ledger which goes up to 1829 and the " Historical New Hampshire" vol.42,no.2. Which btw has a few minor errors as to dates.Page 120 b.....should be marked (see fig.5) andc........should be added(see fig.7). also the date under the Wrighticture on pg.121 should be 1830, not 1800.
I got the information from the author Edward Wall where I purchased my Prescott Doublebass. It is the earliest model made in Deerfield in 1826 instrument no.70 (funny how your post 70 mentions you have never seen a dated Prescott label)and it has what might be the earliest of his labels with a handwritten number and date . The body was in beautiful condition with only a minor crack above an ff.the neck had been replaced as was the volute but the peg box and tuners are original. I had it restored to a playable condition but keeping it as original as possible using photos and measurements from the MFA bass.
Ilaso have 2 church basses, one Prescott with a later label but still from Deerfield and a David M. Dearborn with " Made by David M. Dearborn Concord N.H. 1859" hand written inside on the back. The Prescott needs to be restored but the Dearborn is currently being used as a bass de violon by a friend in Berlin.
Richard