Old German French Model

[Ken Smith]

We have discussed a little about the Germans making French copies and these are seen in many early 20th century Basses. Here is a 19th century German Bass (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/German/GermanBass.htm). From the slope of the shoulders I would guess that it was copied from a Bernadel rather than the more broad type Cello models of Claudot or the Jacquet family of makers. The Purfling running around the Upper bouts of the Top and Back plates along with the Violin model outline is the French styling I am referring to.

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/German/german2.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/German/german3.jpg

Looking at the Scroll closer you can see the filled in screw holes from the older German plate type gears. They have been replaced by early 20th century French gears with the Bakelite handles. Someone really wanted this Bass to turn French. Actually it was sold to the current owner 'as' a French Bass. Another dealer pricing it for the market told the owner it was either French or German. Why can't they see the difference? This is clearly a German Bass regardless of the features and design.
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/German/german8.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/German/german7.jpg

When I first saw the Bass the glaring German features were the outer Rib linings and the Varnish. This is when the Bass was being uncovered and I only saw the lower Rib. From that alone I knew it wasn't French but rather a 'wannabe' made in Germany.
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/German/german5.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/German/german6.jpg

The sound however is fabulous. A great Orchestra Bass with depth, smooth low end spread but with clarity. For Jazz, it's a Ray Brown type sounding Bass with that fat attack and string sound rolling off your fingers and that's with the Bass strung with Flexocor Starks! If this were strung with Spiro reds I would venture to speculate it would just kill as a Jazz Bass.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Ken, I'm not so sure that isn't a French-made bass. To me, the only real clash is the outside linings. You do occasionally see those on a French-made Hawkes. Have you looked at the internal lining and block work? I wonder if that might have been a special order for someone who wanted outside linings to prevent open seams...?

[Ken Smith]

Ken, I'm not so sure that isn't a French-made bass. To me, the only real clash is the outside linings. You do occasionally see those on a French-made Hawkes. Have you looked at the internal lining and block work? I wonder if that might have been a special order for someone who wanted outside linings to prevent open seams...?

All this is possible but I have seen many German Basses like this but not exactly. The Varnish looks typical German to me. Many Hawkes Basses were also made in Germany and probably most of them! The inner linings look normal sized and German as do the blocks. the Top thickness is not overly thick like on French Basses and the archings of the Top and Back are quite proud and not flattish like on many French Basses. The Top is close to 2" and the Back maybe 2" or more in the arching with a rough measurement. The width and Depth/height of the outer linings/moldings are quite typical for Germany in that period pre-1900. This Bass also has screw hole scars from Plate-type gears which I have never seen on any French Bass.

When you make your next visit 'Maestro', you can examine it in person and confirm which country produced it. I think this is at least as nice in sound as any French Bass of a similar model, condition and age.

My opinion is a combination of deduction (Sherlock style) and previous experience. I welcome all and any other opinions regardless of previous experience. Either way, this is one well made Bass.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

How do you account for the obviously French (and very old) tuners?

[Ken Smith]

How do you account for the obviously French (and very old) tuners?

Those are NOT original to the Bass. The Bass has several filled in holes around the outer Scroll/Pegbox cheeks from German type gear plates. These tuners were added sometime after 1900 but are not the first tuners that Scroll/Pegbox has seen.

Like I said Maestro, this Bass wants to be French so bad that they even put French tuners on after it was made. Under UV light the Varnish all matches including the Scroll. If you look close at the pictures you will see all the filled holes from the German gear plates that were most likely original to the Bass.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Are there marks showing where the plates were? There should be a difference in color there as well.

[Ken Smith]

Are there marks showing where the plates were? There should be a difference in color there as well.

Can you see all the screw holes in the pictures above? I think that with the current Gears being on the Bass for most of its life and the varnish touch up that the current color/oxidation looks fairly even now. Those plates take about 10 screws and that's how many filled holes I count each side. If the Plates were only on the Bass for about 20 years and the current Gears for 80 years I don't think there would be much difference in the color. The other way around? Yes, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Sorry, I'm not convinced. Bring the bass here tomorrow.

[Ken Smith]

Sorry, I'm not convinced. Bring the bass here tomorrow.

Me come to you? What a concept? :D:p

By the way, internally speaking what would one see looking at the linings and blocks that might differentiate a French Bass from a German Bass made in the same period like the Bass we are discussing here?:confused:

Also, what other differences would we see that definitely point to one country or the other?:confused::confused:

'School's in'..;)

[Ken Smith]

This beautiful old 19th Century German Bass has just recently been Sold and is no longer available.

I don't think the current owner would mind if we kept this Thread open for educational purposes or further discussion.

[Phil Maneri]

Fine by me.

What was the resolution of the inspection of the interior? Was it's German origin clearer from that?

[Ken Smith]

Fine by me.

What was the resolution of the inspection of the interior? Was it's German origin clearer from that?

I think this is clearly German Work but at its highest degree for the period in which this Bass was made.

I have seen many many French looking German Basses but I can't say I have seen the opposite. It seems that the French may have been just a bit too proud or maybe individualistic to have wanted to make anything that looked remotely German. In the case of the 'Hawkes copies the only ones that I would believe to be French are those that look French. The ones that have the outer Rib linings/moldings to me look 100% German. That doesn't mean that by contract they couldn't have had some French Shop make them but why would you. If it's French, let it be French!:cool:

From the Varnish to the Arching to the Rib Linings etc, this is a German Bass. The style is beautiful as are the dimensions. Not even the Sound is remotely French so why take the French Style 'upper' Purfling and replaced French Tuners and call it French? I think in professional terms, that would be irresponsible at the least. I have seen too many German Basses, nice ones though, listed by dealers as French Basses from the 19th century for the sole purpose of jacking up the price. That to me is not just irresponsible, it's Criminal!!:mad:

I am sure the new owner will love his new Bass.;) I sure enjoyed working next to it for many Orchestral Concerts and rehearsals.:) It was always a sound and power to compete with, especially the floor shaking low end.

[Ken Smith]

Fine by me.

Phil, this is not TB. :rolleyes:

Let the cat out of the bag already! :eek:

[William Stephens]

My College has an interesting bass that appears to be a german Vuillaume copy.

There is a replica vuillaume label inside with a date of 1844 (the bass looks nowhere near that old), above which a previous restorer has pencilled the word "German"

The bass looks similar to the one at the start of this thread, although it has a much lighter varnish.

I don't have any pics to hand, but I could take some when I get back there next month.....

[Phil Maneri]

This is a thread on this bass posted at TB after I got it back from getting a new bridge, nut, saddle, soundpost, fingerboard dressing and French Polish.

Ken suggested I continue discussion here as well.


.....................Copied from TB..........................

She's back!

Here's me tonight with a bad pic from a guest at the gig. Yes, I took her outside. Couldn't resist. Perfect night. No hint of rain until I'd long since packed her away.

First time I've seen me with it. Looks like it fits.

Nice ass.

On the bass.

http://www.fretshop.com/webpics/PhilFrancoKraut1.jpg

Lots of stuff here. I'll try to summarize. Got it back last week, drove straight from Cincinnati to the gig. Arrived at 5:57pm for a 6pm downbeat. I was only five minutes late though. Not bad. Just jumped in with no alone time. What the hell. Played a gig, sounded pretty amazing considering I had no time to adjust anything. Kinda like sitting in on somebody elses bass. Freaking out at the hugeness of it all. The resonance, the tight but huge bottom end. Wow. G string got annoying by the end of the night but considering I felt like I was test driving a Ferrari after driving a Vanagon most of my life it wasn't bad at all.

Next day the crap tailpiece it came with shredded apart while I was at work so she was down all the rest of the weekend while I waited for another to arrive. It was depressing to come home and see a pile of bridge, pickup and tailpiece on the floor in the corner where it lives and strings dangling...:bawl:

Thankfully the soundpost didn't move. I got the new TP yesterday. I put on Spirocores, Mittel A/D/G and the Stark E. Sounded terrible. To much tension. Swapped out the Stark E for a Mittel. Sounded much better across the bass but the E was a wimp compared to the Stark both Pizz and under the bow. Played a rehearsal like that this morning. More depression. Better but unsatisfactory. Buzzy D/G, G is dead as a doorknob. Sounds a note then dies quick. Gets really nasal up the fingerboard and never really drives the box much. Something amiss there.

Some Oliv strings arrive today. Put the Olive D/G on with the Mittel A/E. Very nice. Middle of the bass opens up, G is better, still deadish but the bass regains some thump. Obviously needed the lighter tension. Still hating on the Mittel E. Miss my Stark E. **** it, I put it on.

GLORIOUS! At least mostly. Big bottom, nice punch, full and round. That Oliv D/G is quite a couple of strings. I remembered why I liked them so much. The G is still choked or deadish. Just a quick thunk and then overtones. Bummer. The rest of the bass sounds so great I'm taking her to a gig anyhow.

Big sound on the gig even outside. The G was usable but I had to work around the short note. The spiros are noticably louder than the Oliv but I've been there before. Just gotta get used to it again. Those Spiro Stark E/Mittel A combos with lighter top strings are very big sounding for me on both basses. Dunno why. I just like it. The Gut in the Oliv makes me smile. Not like a Gamut but feels like home more or less. Pretty close to that "sound".

The Stark E on that bass under the bow is a total badass. Roars. Shakes the bass all over the place and has a huge long note all the way up past B. That's worth a whole mess of money right there. Its nice to grab the bow mid phrase and keep the note going into something long and big without a stumble. Can't do that on plywood. Now I gotta learn how to put it down fast enough to get back to the pizz without dropping a beat...

The A string is big too. Strong, rich and full. Shakes the bass around like the Stark E. Sweet.

The D string is also big with either the Spiro or the Oliv. The Oliv has a better transition to the other oliv and it's got that guttish thing I'm a sucker for.

The bottom 3 strings are fantastic. I played most of the gig there.

The G is still funky. Playable but nowhere near what I know it can be. My next suspect is the tuning machine. The G string tuner has a nasty bend in it. I suspect it took a major hit, perhaps when the neck broke. I think it's slopping around in the pegbox. The screw holes that hold the little plate are to big and I think it's moving. I suspect the pegbox may have some slop around the cylinder too. Some disconnect between the key and the wood perhaps. I dunno. Oliv aside it doesn't stay solid in tune.

I don't think it's in the main box itself. Could be...We'll see. Nnick and I will discuss when he returns from vacation....

On with my obsession.

To be continued.......



.............................End Copy............................

I switched strings around on both D/G posts and the G remained short sounding. The tuning keys seem like they are fine. Ken's given some suggestions on grooming the takeoff points for the nut and bridge in more detail that I'll do as well.

I should also say to be clear, this bass sounds amazing as it sits. I'm just nit picking....

[Ken Smith]

Thanks for posting it. She looks beautiful. Job well done by Nick Lloyd.. Enjoy..

[Phil Maneri]

When I tuned it down a whole and then a half step it sounded amazing. G string thing totally disappeared. The lowered tension seems to be the thing. I do like using slightly higher tension strings though so I wonder if there is something that can allow the tension tolerance to increase.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Phil, I dig your eyes in the photo. No need to carry a lighter...

[Eric Swanson]

Its the fiery gleam of bass-love. He looks so happy!

[Ken McKay]

Nevermind.