Guitar and Pear-Shaped

[Charlie Hack]

Hello everyone,

A while back I posted a question up on another prominent internet DB forum regarding the history and nature of guitar-model basses. Unfortunately, my post must have been a few days after the host of this forum departed, meaning I missed out on a very knowledgeable resource to slake my curiosity. So I would like to ask the same question here: does anyone know about the origins of these interesting cornerless specimens? Someone pointed to the violones of Pietro Zenatto, of which there appear to be a few cornerless examples.

Cheers,

Charlie

[Ken Smith]

Hello everyone,

A while back I posted a question up on another prominent internet DB forum regarding the history and nature of guitar-model basses. Unfortunately, my post must have been a few days after the host of this forum departed, meaning I missed out on a very knowledgeable resource to slake my curiosity. So I would like to ask the same question here: does anyone know about the origins of these interesting cornerless specimens? Someone pointed to the violones of Pietro Zenatto, of which there appear to be a few cornerless examples.

Cheers,

Charlie

I have seen quite a few but mostly in pictures. I did play one recently that is just coming on the market but being shown only privately. It has a huge thick Italian sound but in my opinion it needs 20-30k to be fully restored. The value of these is more like supply and demand. Very few people want them. If the same Bass had Violin corners the asking price could be much higher. As far as origins, unless they are labeled and authenticated, it is hard to tell who actually made them. It has been common to see names like Testore, Zenatto and Storioni on these Guitar Basses but much harder to prove they actually had anything to do with making them.

Currently I am looking at two of these Basses for personal interest. One is a small Bass with a 36.5" string length and the other is about a 7/8ths size Bass. Also, I was once shown pics of David Walter's Guitar Bass (att. Testore) before it went up for sale but I had no interest in it. It was purchased by a NYC Orch. professional.

Of the three great sounding Basses I have played in the last year or so, one was a Guitar Shaped Bass. The other two were attr. to the Seraphin shop and Maggini. The Maggini I don't buy at all but is a great Bass. The Seraphin was the best of the 3 or rather close to the Guitar shaped one which was attr. to Storioni.

I have some doubts about any of these Basses to be made by those famous names but in either case, they were fantastic Basses. Maybe they are what the claim to be. How would I know? I wasn't there watching when they were made!!

[Arnold Schnitzer]

I think cornerless is the best shape for bass sound. The instrument can vibrate more as a unit without stiff corners mucking things up. However, cornerless basses are very difficult to pick up and move around, and the long rib bouts are sitting ducks for long cracks. When I designed my "Ergonomic" bass I envisioned a cornerless, assymetrical blob of a bass. But I added the upper corners so the player could more easily transport the bass, and to help prevent those long cracks.

[Ken Smith]

I think cornerless is the best shape for bass sound. The instrument can vibrate more as a unit without stiff corners mucking things up. However, cornerless basses are very difficult to pick up and move around, and the long rib bouts are sitting ducks for long cracks. When I designed my "Ergonomic" bass I envisioned a cornerless, assymetrical blob of a bass. But I added the upper corners so the player could more easily transport the bass, and to help prevent those long cracks.

You know Arnold, I never thought of it that way. Your Ergo (http://www.aesbass.com/images/Ergo/aes&ergo3.jpg) Basses have so many other things going on, I never viewed it much as a Cornerless Bass. Does making the upper part a Gamba take away any of the sound you think? Can the ribs be reinforced internally to help prevent long cracks or would that partly defeat the purpose? Could you put a cross strip on the outer Rib for lifting the Bass like moulding (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/MartiniBass/martini6.JPG) as it turns downwards and finish over it like the outer linings on German and some English Basses have?
(http://www.aesbass.com/images/Ergo/aes&ergo3.jpg)

[John Allen]

I recall Bob Gladstone owning a guitar shaped bass. Anyone know what happened to it?

[Ken McKay]

I have asked myself a lot of the above questions about the cornerless bass I am making now. Since I don't have an actual specimen that I am copying I am going by the old trusted method of seat-of-the-pants. My side cross braces are going to be minimal so as not to impede movement. I am just getting back to it now after a bunch of repairs and student set ups.

My side wood is giving me some problem with unintentional bumps, but I am ironing them out with some luck.

Arnold, did you use regular lining on the ergo or did you beef them up on the lower bout?

[Ken Smith]

I am in the process myself on closing a deal on my first Guitar shaped Bass. This will be for my personal use. Soon after my Hart/Fendt comes out of restoration, this Bass (if I get it) will go into restoration right behind it if Arnold can take the job. Then we can study it and see what made this one sound so great if possible.

This posting is a bit premature but I am confident I will have the Bass soon. I will not discuss what Bass it is until all the ink has dried and it's in my personal possession.

Hey, do we call these Bass Guitars?

[Ken McKay]

NOOO NOT BASS GUITARS:eek: :eek: Those are the silly things we first saw on MTV Unplugged, a big acoustic guitar that is supposed sound good unamplified.

[Ken Smith]

NOOO NOT BASS GUITARS:eek: :eek: Those are the silly things we first saw on MTV Unplugged, a big acoustic guitar that is supposed sound good unamplified.

Kidding... Look, in a few days or so I should have this newly acquired Italian Guitar shaped Bass. I will post some pics for all to see probably in 'This Old Bass' section. The title of the thread will be the name of the maker the Bass has been attributed to. I will post a message here as well but with a link to the new thread.

I just thought that a Bass with a Guitar shape could at least be humorously called a Bass Guitar. It needs a lot of work but the fretboard looks good from what I recall.. LOL.. Fingerboard!!!.. kidding..lol :D

[stan haskins]

Does it have a fancy headstock?

[Ken Smith]

Does it have a fancy headstock?

Yea, you can say is does. Wait till I post the pics. It's coming home tomorrow.

Edit: Tomorrow came! http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/images/tn_Storioni.jpg

[Ken Smith]

Yea, you can say is does. Wait till I post the pics. It's coming home tomorrow.

I just posted this on the d'Salo Thread (http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?p=539#post539). I will make a page for my website in the next day or so and then post the link or pics. It needs a huge restoration but it is playable now. If I don't play it as much as I can now, it could easily be a year before the Bass is fully restored not to mention settled back into its old sound again.

I have posted a new thread for this Bass under the Italian School titled Cornerless Italian Bass (http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=93) as this is a perfect example of how the Italians stood alone on making some of the greatest Basses ever.

[David Powell]

A very sweet aquisition indeed!! Now that you've got a bonafide one of these, I can't wait to get all the details on it. Thanks for posting the measurements. I'm so used to the gamba form it is hard for me to think of these as double basses. This is one with the sloping shoulders. One has to wonder why one shape dominated and the other is so much rarer.

Oh, by the way, I post sometimes somewhere's else as:

SILVERSORCERER

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
(gotta love that smilie!!!)

[Ken McKay]

Here is the start of a new cornerless bass that I am building.
www.upnorthstrings.com/cornerlessbass.html

[Bob Branstetter]

Here is the start of a new cornerless bass that I am building.
www.upnorthstrings.com/cornerlessbass.html (http://www.upnorthstrings.com/cornerlessbass.html)I had never thought about making a cornerless bass, but after seeing yours...

You mentioned that you acquired the wood from Fred Lyman about 10 years ago. What was the length of the ribs? I wonder if any of the usual suspects (wood suppliers) would be willing or are able to cut rib wood in the length required for cornerless bass?

I took the opportunity to look at the rest of your website. I love that bass photo with the Chicken!

[Ken McKay]

Hi Bob,

The rooster helps me with some finishing when he is not busy, he is very good with a gray pad. ;) ;)

As for the wood, I got the top wood from Fred Lyman with some other back and side wood. This top is from Fred but the back and sides are from Battenkill. I got a couple big slabs from him and sliced them into backs and sides. I have enough for a couple more basses. :cool:

It is an interesting project and I am going by the seat of the pants method. But that is the most fun, isn't it?

My plan was approved by Paul Warburton so I should be okay on that front.

[Mike Pecanic]

ok,ok, so there is no corner blocks? Just the top and bottom?

[Ken Smith]

Wood for ribs and back can be any length. I have had maple as long as 16' and walnut at 12' is not uncommon either. 8-10' is more of an average. I sold wood to Arnold for his Ergo II Bass and recently supplied him with some Claro Walnut for a Testore model he is making and some flamed Imbuia (brazillian walnut nick named) for a Bass he will make in the future.

[Bob Branstetter]

Wood for ribs and back can be any length. I have had maple as long as 16' and walnut at 12' is not uncommon either. 8-10' is more of an average. I sold wood to Arnold for his Ergo II Bass and recently supplied him with some Claro Walnut for a Testore model he is making and some flamed Imbuia (brazillian walnut nick named) for a Bass he will make in the future.You probably can do long resawing in your shop, but the average guy needs to have someone do that before he buys it. Most of the places where I get big leaf maple from don't even like to resaw 48" long for 9-10" wide ribs. Even at that, I have to do the thicknessing myself.

[Ken McKay]

I am accepting opinions on this question of what shape you prefer. http://www.upnorthstrings.com/cornerlessbasspage4.html

Thanks in advance, and please respond here in Ken's corner.

[Brian Gencarelli]

I dunno Ken... I prefer the first over the second, but- I think the first would look better with the "waist" a little higher, to balance out the bottom. Does that make any sense?!?

I am not sure I know how to explain it. Maybe I will try to draw on a photo later.

But in general- I think the first is better defined.

IMHO
Brian

[David Powell]

I like the first one best. What kind of f-holes are you favoring?

[Ken Smith]

Be careful with the center bout. If it is too wide, the Bow may not clear the 'wood'. On mine, the Bridge is quite high (7") but it seems to clear just fine. Also, is this an Orchestra only Bass, Solo only or Orchestra/Solo as far as its intended use? Smaller upper bouts from what I have seen seems to make the Bass sound thin on top while wider upper bouts usually have a sweet midrange like a 'wet' or moist kind of sound.

What will your Rib depth be? Mine just barely reached 7 3/4" at the widest point but is mostly 7 5/8" around the bottom portion. My Dodd was only 7 1/2" at the widest point as was the loudest Bass to date I have played.

Harmony in all the dimensions and with the wood chosen is not really a science. I think the Cornerless Bass may have a new revival on the horizon.

[Ken McKay]

Thanks David, I am leaning towards the first also now and I think the proportions are good that way.

It will have a narrow enough UB to help reach around yet be wide enough to get some vibrations happening there. It could get really hard to get good arching with the real narrow UB as seen on the Lemer bass. But I am working that out now.

Ken, thanks. It is planned as a solo/orchestra bass with a real thunderous low end yet a good amount of "buzz" in the the higher positions, but who knows???. The bridge in the plan is about 6 1/2 inch but will depend on the final arching of course. As for the ribs, they are going to be 9 1/2 inches at the tail block and taper to less than 6 at the neck ( exact number to follow when I can measure it).

[Ken McKay]

I like the first one best. What kind of f-holes are you favoring?

Not sure yet, I am thinking something original but Italian looking. Certainly not a copy of any of those shown.

[Ken McKay]

I dunno Ken... I prefer the first over the second, but- I think the first would look better with the "waist" a little higher, to balance out the bottom. Does that make any sense?!?

I am not sure I know how to explain it. Maybe I will try to draw on a photo later.

But in general- I think the first is better defined.

IMHO
Brian
Thanks Brian, I think after the plate goes on it will be easier to decide. These things never translate from paper to wood as one would think.

[Ken Smith]

Not sure yet, I am thinking something original but Italian looking. Certainly not a copy of any of those shown.

On the Ribs, if you make them that deep, it may slow down the response and punch. My two Best Basses to date had LESS than 8" ribs. That being my Dodd at 7 1/2" and my Cornerless at 7 5/8" mainly. The taper is needed but mainly in the upper bout and at the Neck. That's the right idea. If you can, make two rib shells and fit the same Top and Back to both. Then see which sounds better.

On the FFs, make them spaced far enough at the upper eyes for the Bridge feet so that the bridge width matches the Bass size re:3/4, 7/8, 4/4, 5/4 .. etc. If spaced too close like on my Bass, you will need a 5/8 to 3/4 sized bridge for a 4/4 Bass. Mine has been damaged with the Top pushed down on the G-string side from being too wide with a 170mm wide bridge instead of a 150mm or smaller size which the FFs dictate be used in order to sit properly over the Bass bar.

[Brian Gencarelli]

Ken (McKay)-

I played with the shape. It isn't exact, but you get the idea. I also think this would help with the bow clearance issue.

I agree with Ken (Smith) about the rib depth. My bass isn't particularly deep, but has a very deep fundamental. I think very deep basses have a lot of "spread" but not too much core. However, if you are going to 5.5" or 6" taper at the block then having her "fat on the bottom" wouldn't be such a bad idea.


Brian

[Ken Smith]

Ken (McKay)-

I played with the shape. It isn't exact, but you get the idea. I also think this would help with the bow clearance issue.

I agree with Ken (Smith) about the rib depth. My bass isn't particularly deep, but has a very deep fundamental. I think very deep basses have a lot of "spread" but not too much core. However, if you are going to 5.5" or 6" taper at the block then having her "fat on the bottom" wouldn't be such a bad idea.


Brian

First off, fat on the bottom should not mean it needs deep ribs at all. Deep ribs are often used on smaller Bass to add air space. Too much space on the bottom and it may be slow moving the air out of the Bass.

Second, if the width is too narrow, the FF's eyes at the top will be very close causing it to need a very narrow bridge. You don't want a 1/4 sized Bridge on a 3/4-7/8's Bass. That will kill the whole Idea having the Bass bar so close to the sound post with wide lower bouts.

Guitar shape or not, the upper and lower bouts should have harmony with the center curved as needed. Ask Arnold and Jeff about this. Also, take a regular Bass you know and like the sound of and convert the shape to cornerless by just shaving off the corners and maybe with some slight modifications to get the desired look artistically. Less is more when altering shapes and designs from a proven model. Also, note on that proven model how deep the Ribs actually are. The deeper the Ribs, the more room for them to flex or maybe crack. Since the Cornerless Bass can flex more than one with corners, I would only assume that slightly 'less' Rib depth would be better.

[Brian Gencarelli]

First off, fat on the bottom should not mean it needs deep ribs at all. Deep ribs are often used on smaller Bass to add air space. Too much space on the bottom and it my be slow moving the air out of the Bass.

Second, if the width is too narrow, the FF's eyes at the top will be very close causing it to need a very narrow bridge. You don't want a 1/4 sized Bridge on a 3/4-7/8's Bass. That will kill the whole Idea having the Bass bar so close to the sound post with wide lower bouts.\


Maybe my "terminology" was a little off. I meant "deep at the bottom". I would figure that if the bass is tapering off to 6" at the neck, then you would need a deeper rib depth at the bottom to add the air space that you are losing at the neck. (That is if he planned on a certain airspace that he was shooting for...)

I didn't suggest that the width be too narrow. Maybe the bottom and top would have to expand to make the shape I was suggesting. Ken McKay is the engineer on this project, so I will let him work out the details. I was just suggesting what was visually more appealing to me. I am sure Ken McKay would take into account all of those aspects as this isn't his first bass.

IMHO,
Brian

[Ken McKay]

Ken (McKay)-

I played with the shape. It isn't exact, but you get the idea. I also think this would help with the bow clearance issue.

I agree with Ken (Smith) about the rib depth. My bass isn't particularly deep, but has a very deep fundamental. I think very deep basses have a lot of "spread" but not too much core. However, if you are going to 5.5" or 6" taper at the block then having her "fat on the bottom" wouldn't be such a bad idea.


Brian

Brian, I get your point clearly. It does look rather harmoneous with the drawn in lines. I am playing with the plan and looking at the important points that Ken Smith brought up about the bass bar and bridge positions. I am leaning towards an ff like the Lemar bass as that is closer to my shape and it may fit better. Thanks again.

[Ken McKay]

KS, I am thinking about narrowing the ribs and how to go about it at this point. Good help on the bass bar and bridge stuff also. I am going to get out the Weisshaar book tonight and study it a bit as he goes over bass bar placement.

Aarnold, thanks for the help on the rib bracing from the other thread.

[Ken Smith]

KS, I am thinking about narrowing the ribs and how to go about it at this point. Good help on the bass bar and bridge stuff also. I am going to get out the Weisshaar book tonight and study it a bit as he goes over bass bar placement.

Aarnold, thanks for the help on the rib bracing from the other thread.


Ken, any progress to report? You know, we just love pictures....

[Ken McKay]

...not much for photos but there are some updates starting here http://www.upnorthstrings.com/cornerlessbasspage4.html
I did two things:
1. Narrowed the waste just a bit by removing the linings and bending the side in just a half inch above the narrowest part of the middle bout.
2. Planed the ribs for less depth by tapering them from tail block to neck. This will leave the ribs about 9 1/2 at the end block but narrowing to 8/12 at the area where the back bends in, then tapering in to 6 1/2 for better reach-around.

Oh yea and I jointed, joined and started planing the top. Nice old seasoned spruce wood.

[Brian Gencarelli]

Looking Good Ken!

Can't wait to see her put together- she has curves!
Brian

[Ken McKay]

I am accepting opinions on this question of what shape you prefer. http://www.upnorthstrings.com/cornerlessbasspage4.html

Thanks in advance, and please respond here in Ken's corner.


Brian and all,

Click on the link above and have a look at my new shape, although subtle, I think it did make a considerable difference. I think it is very close to the Testore bass which unfortunately I only have the small photo.

[David Powell]

Brian and all,

Click on the link above and have a look at my new shape, although subtle, I think it did make a considerable difference. I think it is very close to the Testore bass which unfortunately I only have the small photo. Yes! that is definitely sweet looking. It kind of has the proportion of one of those Alexandria basses, without the corners. I think Pollmann makes them. I always liked the big difference in the upper and lower bouts. Testore would approve!

[Ken Smith]

Testore or not, small upper bouts make for a smaller sound. It would be good if you came here and played and then measured my Bass. Sue Lipkins mentioned that David Wiebe (http://violoncello.com/) was very impressed with the Riccardi Bass (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Storioni/Storioni.htm) and soon after made a copy of it.

The bottom end of my Bass is like I have never in my life heard, never. You know some of the Basses I have played and owned and nothing has ever matched this Bass. Take a closer look at the measurements if you can. There is something to learn from this Bass.

[Brian Gencarelli]

Brian and all,

Click on the link above and have a look at my new shape, although subtle, I think it did make a considerable difference. I think it is very close to the Testore bass which unfortunately I only have the small photo.

Ken,

I really like the shape. I say go ahead and make this one. Then, when you make #2, you can pattern it after KS's Bass.

I understand the need to "experiment" with the shape and have your own pattern. Go for it!

Brian

[Ken McKay]

Ken, thanks for the invite to measure the Reccardi bass I may take you up on that someday. I also do want to play and hear it!

We are going to have to see how this one turns out and it will be a lesson to us all I think. Keep in mind that my lower bout is very wide at 28+ inches making the upper bout look small. It will be 18 inches, which is still smaller than the Storioni by about 2 inches, but not as much as the Lemur bass which is 15 1/2 (anyone know how that one sounds?) and the Bass attributed to Ruggeri (Sciachia's), is also 18.

The way I arch and graduate the stiffness of the top, along with the bridge height (downward pressure) is going to have a big effect. I also think that your string length (mensure) goes a long way in defining the huge sound! I have heard this from other experts.

So keep the comments coming, every morsel is gold and a learning experience for me.

[Matthew Tucker]

Its a better shape, but to my taste, the lower bout still looks odd, I'd let the bottom block spring out a bit so the bottom isn't so flat. otherwise it gives the impression of weight squashing down. I don't mind the small upper bout but the lower bout looks too squished. A little more curve in that area will give that lower lower bout area a bit more structural strength too.

I agree with your opinion that the 44" string length of Kens bass is likely to be a BIG factor in its great sound as well. That does not diminish its other qualities, of course.

[Ken McKay]

Okay Matthew I am going to play with that a bit and see what I come up with.

[Ken Smith]

I have put wood under the string and experimented with 42" and there was not much loss of sound. It tightened up a bit but this has so much bottom, no one will miss the difference.

I don't think Ruggeri or Roggeri would make a Bass that looks so primitive. These guys were some of the neatest makers ever. i think sometimes people pull names out of a hat to make the Bass something it is not. On mine being a Storioni, it is only attributed to that name and I am equally doubtful it is his work.

The upper bout is crucial in the tone and depth of the Bass as is the middle bout. The middle bout has to reach the limit to where bowing is comfortable but the more you give it, the wider and deeper the sound will be.

[Ken McKay]

I have put wood under the string and experimented with 42" and there was not much loss of sound. It tightened up a bit but this has so much bottom, no one will miss the difference.

I don't think Ruggeri or Roggeri would make a Bass that looks so primitive. These guys were some of the neatest makers ever. i think sometimes people pull names out of a hat to make the Bass something it is not. On mine being a Storioni, it is only attributed to that name and I am equally doubtful it is his work. I would guess blindly it was Boccaccini who copied him 50 years lated further south just a bit above Florence.

The upper bout is crucial in the tone and depth of the Bass as is the middle bout. The middle bout has to reach the limit to where bowing is comfortable but the more you give it, the wider and deeper the sound will be.

Regarding the Ruggeri attributed bass. Have you ever seen a Ruggeri scroll? they are better than Strad! That bass does not have a Ruggeri scroll. I am glad to see you write that.

I am sure you are right about the width issues also.


Have another look, I took Matthew's suggestion. http://www.upnorthstrings.com/cornerlessbasspage4.html Looks better doesn't it.

[Ken Smith]

Regarding the Ruggeri attributed bass. Have you ever seen a Ruggeri scroll? they are better than Strad! That bass does not have a Ruggeri scroll. I am glad to see you write that.

I am sure you are right about the width issues also.


Have another look, I took Matthew's suggestion. http://www.upnorthstrings.com/cornerlessbasspage4.html Looks better doesn't it.


Yes, I see his idea there. The whole thing must be in harmony including the graduations, Arch and wood species.

Why does one Bass sound better than another? Why can't they make it just as good each time?

Does the words 'luck' and educated guess' mean anything? Yes, I think so but to what degree, THAT is the question..lol

[Matthew Tucker]

yeah better! Imagine the bottom bracket is the bumcrack :eek: ... much more shapely now! LOL!

[Brian Gencarelli]

Ken M.-

That is the ticket! Build away!:)

[Ken McKay]

Just a quick note and link to my progress. I have decided on the f hole design, it will be Gasparo da Salo style and the arching scheme is going to be Brescian style to go along with that. http://www.upnorthstrings.com/cornerlessbasspage6.

Thanks for you interest.

[Matthew Tucker]

I like the style and width but to my eye they are still sitting a bit high, for balance I'd experiment with dropping them about half an inch or an inch, so that they "hang" into the lower bout rather than sitting above it. This is purely a looks thing for me.

Problem with doing that is your string length may be longer, depending on where your nicks end up.

Your outline is looking nice!

[Ken McKay]

I would be able to move the f down about an inch and have the string length be 42.25. A lot of players will feel pretty comfortable playing it at that mensure.

By the way, Nick Lloyd wrote about a way to get mensure from body stop and neck length. For a bass I have here, it works out if I use:

1) neck length = from nut to where the neck joins the body.
2) body stop = top of bass (where neck and rib meet) to f nick-line.

Are 1 and 2 correct? Anyone know? where's Nick?


Did you look at the next page http://www.upnorthstrings.com/cornerlessbasspage7 where I started carving the plate.

[Matthew Tucker]

Good to see it taking shape. I can see how you are getting the barrel arch. In fact, I started out trying to get the barrel shape on my bass because that's what the arching looked like in the photos. Then I thought that maybe the barrel was showing as a result of the top collapsing in the centre of the long arch over time. So then I modified it to a continuous long arch.

But the arching pattern on the plans Chandler drew up showed a long flat in the middle of the long arch, slightly higher on the lower bout than the upper bout.

I notice you're carving along the grain all the way around. I found it easier to carve in a radial pattern, meaning across the grain in the centre.

[Ken Smith]

As a rule most Makers and Restorers stay within the 41-42" range these days. 42.25" String length can make it harder to sell down the road.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

[quote=Ken McKay;2692]I would be able to move the f down about an inch and have the string length be 42.25. A lot of players will feel pretty comfortable playing it at that mensure.

By the way, Nick Lloyd wrote about a way to get mensure from body stop and neck length. For a bass I have here, it works out if I use:

1) neck length = from nut to where the neck joins the body.
2) body stop = top of bass (where neck and rib meet) to f nick-line.

Are 1 and 2 correct? Anyone know? where's Nick?


Neck length plus stop length plus 1" equals string length. This formula will get you very close, assuming typical bridge installation angle.

[Ken McKay]

I will try to stay less than 42 inches mensure. :cool:

Arnold, if I use +1 inch fudge factor, I get very close, thanks.:cool:

Matthew, Keep in mind that the long arch from top to bottom is almost perfect from the planer and since my wood started as pie shaped wedges, there is less roughing to be done compared to your 2 inch thick cedar. I get no tear out if I carve up, bottom to top, on the bass side and down on the treble, it is just the way this spruce wants to be carved, so I go with the grain to stay perfectly in control, and every gouge stroke leaves a shiny surface behind. :cool:

I will establish the flat perimeter next at a perfect thickness + 1/2 mm. Then my next tool is going to be a plane, to round the flat area into the generously arched barrel shape. Then a series of sharp gouges that match the recurve will be used to blend the two, then scraper. :cool:

As always, thanks for the comments and help.

[Ken McKay]

I carved some more today and got this far.

[Ken Smith]

I have noticed that in proportion, my Bass (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Storioni/Storioni.htm) and some other Cornerless Basses have thicker edges which might be for protection. This may help it over time from having to be re-edged during Top repairs.

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Storioni/images/side_detail2.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Storioni/images/side_detail.jpg

[Matthew Tucker]

How wide are those bottom ribs Ken? they look DEEEEP!

http://www.upnorthstrings.com/040107-1.jpg

When I made my purfling I resolved to try a flexible glue like PVA next time as the hide glue was just too brittle.

[Matthew Tucker]

I have notice that in proportion my Bass (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Storioni/Storioni.htm) and some other Cornerless Basses have thicker edges for protection. This may help it over time from having to be re-edged during Top repairs.

But why would this be a feature of cornerless basses?

I would have thought regular basses would have the same if not more issues with edge repairs with all those corners to catch on things.

[Ken Smith]

But why would this be a feature of cornerless basses?

I would have thought regular basses would have the same if not more issues with edge repairs with all those corners to catch on things.

A Bass with 6 separate Ribs and 4 Corner Blocks (2 per side) is much stiffer and moves or twists less than a Bass with only two very long Ribs and NO Corner Blocks at all. A Cornerless Bass has the sound it has because it vibrates more freely and without restriction of the stiffened center Rib construction. I will assume from this that the thicker edges are to prevent edge splitting since the Bass can twist more within its form. The greatly distressed Ribs of my Bass are evidence of this movement as they took the blunt of the damages over time rather than the Top or Back. Both the Top and Back has their share of cracks and splits but the Top of this Bass pre-restoration is in better condition than my Hart/Fendt Bass was. The Hart needed a complete mold made to fix the Top whereas the 'Storioni' is estimated to need only a fraction or Arch correction and can be done without a mold at all.

Old Basses tell their own stories but the language they speak is not always easy to understand or even listened to at all sometimes. Learning from the past is a great thing but that effort must be made.

On the Rib depth of my Bass the maximum at the bottom is only 7 3/4" (Ribs only). My Dodd (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Dodd/DoddBass.htm) being the other 'loud'/deep sounding Bass I owned was only 7 1/2" deep. I put this Bass (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Storioni/Storioni.htm) up against Homer's Gagliano and Biase's (ex Homers') Guadagnini and it was deeper and smoother than the both of them on all 4 strings. The person who bought my Dodd also went to Biase's on my recommendation and played those Basses as well but still liked my Dodd better.

Rib Depth alone does not make a Bass sound deeper or louder in my opinion. It's the whole Bass and its woods that do this I believe.

[Matthew Tucker]

What you say may be true. I guess I think there are relatively so few cornerless basses compared with regular basses that it's hard to make generalisations really meaningful, as there are still so many other variables. But we can try.

If cornerless basses sound so fine, generally, why then are they so outnumbered by regular ones?

(... and I was actually asking the other Ken about his rib depth on the build photo)

[Ken Smith]

What you say may be true. I guess I think there are relatively so few cornerless basses compared with regular basses that it's hard to make generalisations really meaningful, as there are still so many other variables. But we can try.

If cornerless basses sound so fine, generally, why then are they so outnumbered by regular ones?

(... and I was actually asking the other Ken about his rib depth on the build photo)

Yes, I know it was the other Ken but thought it valuable to once again throw in my two cents regardless..lol

Why so few? Well, tradition for one I would guess and pride maybe as well on the other hand. Guitar makers were not thought of as highly as Violin makers so that might be a mental block on their Cornerless beasts. Also, ever try lifting one around the stage or moving a few feet over from the player next to you? Where the heck do you grab the thing? I have a hard time moving it around but the sound makes up for it. Also, I can't lean it on the chair next to me like I do my other Basses. Should I glue a Block to the outside of the Ribs like a Horizontal 'bumper' to lift, carry and lean the Bass? This might be something to help with this problem I think as well as some Bumpers on the Upper and Lower Bouts to lay it down.

Cornerless Viol/Violin Family instruments have been made in Italy for hundreds of years but for some reason, they never change tradition. Even the Chanot's (http://www.usd.edu/smm/Violins/1800-1849/Chanot.html) and others in France (http://www.usd.edu/smm/Violins/1800-1849/Chanot2.html) and England (http://www.usd.edu/smm/Violins/1800-1849/10283Howellviolin.html) (19th century) made some cornerless Violins as well as others elsewhere. The Spaniards adopting the Guitar Form as their main style of making Basses after the Spanish Guitar itself took hold world wide. They are forgetting one thing here in Spain though! It's an Italian thing Bass-wise and not Spanish no matter how well 'borrowed' or adapted..:cool:

[Ken McKay]

How wide are those bottom ribs Ken? they look DEEEEP!



When I made my purfling I resolved to try a flexible glue like PVA next time as the hide glue was just too brittle.


They are almost 10 inches at the bottom block, but the ribs taper to 8.5 at the upper bout and then down to less than 6 at the neck. When I designed the bass, I was thinking full sized bottom with 3/4 string length and playablility. That was before Ken's comments about depth of ribs versus depth of sound. When I get the top glued on I may alter the width, maybe not though.


I am going to glue the strips in separately so the hide glue should not be an issue as that can slip around and conform the the shape.

[Ken McKay]

It is haunting me now......:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:


Now I have to cut those ribs down to a proper size. No big deal I will treat it like a restoration practice project. Shoot I could probably make an instrument out of the cut offs. :D :D :D

[Matthew Tucker]

Well you don't HAVE to cut them down. You'll never know whether your hunch was correct unless you try. I'd think about the look, too, from the side. Take some side-on shots with the top taped on. if you like the tapered look, keep it.

The gofriller in chandlers book has a nice taper from 9" at the saddle to about 7" at the heel, and that's a carved back with no bend. Looks nice and it's a master bass ...

have you done any calculations of the relative volume of the upper and lower bouts compared with another model?

[Ken McKay]

Well, I am working at the hospital for the next few days so that will give me some time to contemplate the issue. I took a look out of the corner of my eye when I entered my shop this morning and it hit me as "too big". And then I got to thinking about moving it around with a stand partner as Ken S. described.

You guys have been a great big help and I really appreciate your interest.The suggestions so far have resulted in making it something I can be satisfied with, so I thank you all for that, including Arnold's pm's. Designing a bass is a lot harder than I thought.

So until the weekend, I let it sit.

[Matthew Tucker]

Should I glue a Block to the outside of the Ribs like a Horizontal 'bumper' to lift, carry and lean the Bass? This might be something to help with this problem I think as well as some Bumpers on the Upper and Lower Bouts to lay it down.

maybe velcro can be called upon, again, to perform modern miracles ...:D

[Brian Gencarelli]

Ken McKay,

Just looked at some of your progress pics... looking good! I am getting inspired to give it a whirl myself... I will finally have a big project out of the workshop soon. (Dining room set restoration for my wife... about 8 months work so far.)

Once I have some room, I may be sending you a PM.

Carve on,
Brian

[Ken McKay]

Thanks Brian, I have been working on it here and there. I have the back planed to thickness now and the top arching pretty much refined the way I want it. I have the purfling and am ready to cut the grooves. The corpus is off the false back platform now because I glued on a "false top" to hold the rib shape while I glue on the top when it is ready. I will show some pics of that soon.

I will be glad to help anyway I can.

[David Powell]

I've just caught up on your progress and it is looking really fantastic to me. I'd give the current rib depth a whirl. After all, taking off is easier than putting it back on, and with the long taper like that it is plausible that it will have the right sound. I don't know if there is a formula for rib depth. This fellow is building different shaped cornerless basses: http://www.allbasse.com/

His design, which is sort of a rounded Savart shape, has a rather radical rib taper from bottom to top. I don't know what the measurements are, but I think it looked similar to what you currently have going.

I really like the way your barrel arching shaped up. It's pretty obvious the you have a good instinct as a builder.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

David, I tried to enter the site shown above and my anti-virus program reported an intrusion alert, some type of worm/virus.

[David Powell]

David, I tried to enter the site shown above and my anti-virus program reported an intrusion alert, some type of worm/virus.Gee I hope not. It is a flash site of the bass maker Antoine Leducq. Try this one. This is more the entry page: http://www.allbasse.com/

I don't get the alerts, but then I'm on a Mac and I haven't run anti-virus in a long time. Hmmm.

[Mike Smith]

David, I tried to enter the site shown above and my anti-virus program reported an intrusion alert, some type of worm/virus.

Looks OK to me, is it only when you select a link? Seems that it pop ups in a new window, which I could say your AV program may see that as something potentially unwanted.

[Tim Bishop]

Gee I hope not. It is a flash site of the bass maker Antoine Leducq. Try this one. This is more the entry page: http://www.allbasse.com/

I don't get the alerts, but then I'm on a Mac and I haven't run anti-virus in a long time. Hmmm.

OK here. Sounds like AV protection to me.

[paulunger]

Here are some pics of my guitar shaped Baldontoni, 1820.
http://www.myfamily.com/Photos/ViewPhoto.aspx?iid=3174660

[Anselm Hauke]

paul,
thanks for posting
the link in your post requires a password, i can see no pics.

[Ken Smith]

Has any one ever seen Ermanno Ferrari with his Cornerless Bass or have some pictures to share with us? I have been told in a copy of a letter that he bought a Bass by Spanish maker J.Guillami from Gary Karr some years ago.

All I have found so far on the web is this; http://www.yamamoto-bass.com/cd/ferrari/ferrari.html

http://www.yamamoto-bass.com/cd/ferrari/8.jpg

[Ken Smith]

ok,ok, so there is no corner blocks? Just the top and bottom?

Mike, I am so sorry. You posted that about 3 years ago while I was typing up my post on page one/1 of this thread about the same time. In reading back over it just now I noticed that you were never replied to. I don't think anyone intended to ignore you at all. It's just that I missed it and the subject direction was changed when they started talking here about making a new bass.

Yes, just top and bottom blocks to answer your question. No corner blocks at all. Also, the ribs are made from 2 pieces usually, one on each side.

I have since acquired a quasi-cornerless bass that is in restoration. The Ribs are 2 pieces but the top and back has corners but not like we are used to seeing. They hook a bit downwards instead of coming to an evenly shaped blunt corner. There are small scalloped blocks 'outside' on the ribs supporting the corners. A total of 8 of these mini scalloped blocks. This bass is nicknamed 'Scallopini'.;)

This bass does not look in shape or outline like the typical guitar-shaped double bass. It looks kind of normal for a handmade Italian bass. It has a round-back with an upper angle break and sloped shoulders. The back I think is Walnut, Italian/European and with some flame cut on the slab, not quartered. The ribs seem un-figured but might be Italian walnut as well.

[Ken Smith]

Today after another brief discussion with Arnold who is restoring the 'ex-Riccardi bass' I have decided to remove the Storioni attribution from the listing and change it officially to "Italian Guitar Model Bass, Italy, 18th Century".

When I first bought the Bass a well known historian that knew the Bass said it was not Storioni or even Cremona and most likely 19th century. When two prominent Bass Luthiers looked inside the bass their estimates were approximately mid-18th century, give or take a few decades.

Now that the Bass is opened up and getting worked on the 1750 or so estimate looks more likely than anything near the 19th century. Who actually made it? I don't really know, I wasn't there! Perhaps in the future something will come along and tell us more. I did see a slightly similar Scroll/pegbox on another Italian Bass but that had I think a replaced Back and was not cornerless. The FFs were different as well but, the Scroll was close and maybe not a match for the Bass it was on.

When I first heard of this Bass for sale about a year or two before getting it I was told it was a Rogeri. When I bought it the name was changed back to Storioni which it had been called before it was a Rogeri. Perhaps the Bass going to market was the reason for all the famous name calling.

This by no means in itself lessens the greatness of this Double Bass but it does relieve me in the 'burden of proof' if it were to be sold. Regardless, it will not change the asking price either!;)

[Ken McKay]

Chet atkins playing guitar in front of a cornerless player http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-c66SJPuUI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-c66SJPuUI)

And if you look close you can see Ken Smith in the background next to to girl with the poodle dress. :D

[Ken Smith]

Chet atkins playing guitar in front of a cornerless player http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-c66SJPuUI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-c66SJPuUI)

And if you look close you can see Ken Smith in the background next to to girl with the poodle dress. :D

Wow, who is that guy playing the Cornerless bass and where is that thing now. That bass is way way out of his league..:p

It looks a bit like my bass but I doubt that it is. I think..:confused:

Me next to a girl when I was 2 or 3 years old? :eek:

[Eric Swanson]

A couple years ago I was with my daughter, watching one of the first (earliest) "Concerts for Young People" DVDs that the NYPhil put out. I noticed that there was a cornerless bass near the far end of the section. This particular film was from the very late 50s or very early 60s.

I wrote the archivist at the orchestra, hoping to figure out who was playing that bass. While the (kind, patient, remarkably helpful) archivist provided a interesting, comprehensive list of all the section members (and the various orchestras that evolved into the NYPhil), he could not tell me anything about the instruments themselves.

So, the pear-shaped instrument that was in that section went somewhere. Anyone know who plays it now?

Whoever was playing it in the NYPhil was definitely not the same player in the Chet Atkins clip. If it was the same person, he dramatically changed his left hand technique for the other gig :).

[Dave Martin]

Wow, who is that guy playing the Cornerless bass and where is that thing now. That bass is way way out of his league..:p

It looks a bit like my bass but I doubt that it is. I think..:confused:

Me next to a girl when I was 2 or 3 years old? :eek:
I've posted a link to the video to a group of the old Nashville recording industry folks, but I haven't had a response yet. One session drummer suggested that the clip might have been from a show called "Midwestern Hayride", which was broadcast from Cincinnati, but so far, I haven't had a good answer as to who the player was.

I know - I'll ask Bob Moore...

[Dave Martin]

That's Ernie Newton playing bass. I haven't yet found out more about his bass.

[Ken Smith]

if y'all don't know who Bob Moore is, you should do a search; you could make a pretty strong argument that Bob invented country bass. He started his session career in 1949 and played on something around 10,000 sessions, including the ones that gave us all of Patsy Cline's hits, all of Marty Robbins' hits and even the Elvis records that were recorded in Nashville, like "Teddy Bear". He also played on records by Jim Reeves, Johnny Horton, Roy Orbison, Ray Price, Brenda Lee, Paul Simon (that's him on The Boxer) and a zillion others. And by the way, he still plays great. But I digress...

According to Bob,that's Ernie Newton playing bass, Louis Ennis on rhythm guitar and Marvin Hughes on piano. Ernie played with (among others) Bill Monroe, Earl Scruggs, The Osborne Brothers and Kitty Wells. In other words, he's a more seasoned (and better) bassist than this video makes it appear. I'm trying to find out now if Ernie is still alive, and what happened to the bass.

Ok, but unless he was known for playing a Cornerless bass, this isn't the place to talk about him. Show me a picture of him with an Italian or Spanish Guitar shaped bass and then we are in business..:p

I don't think the population of Italian or Spanish basses has any familiarity at all with the names mentioned above, sorry. :confused:

[Dave Martin]

Ok, but unless he was known for playing a Cornerless bass, this isn't the place to talk about him. Show me a picture of him with an Italian or Spanish Guitar shaped bass and then we are in business..:p

I don't think the population of Italian or Spanish basses has any familiarity at all with the names mentioned above, sorry. :confused:
Well, Ken, Ernie Newton WAS playing a cornerless bass in the video. Nevertheless, I'll remove the reference. It's your forum, after all.

[Ken Smith]

Well, Ken, Ernie Newton WAS playing a cornerless bass in the video. Nevertheless, I'll remove the reference. It's your forum, after all.

Ok, thank's for clearing that up.

Those that may have played an old Cornerless bass or two from the 18th or 19th century will have a special affinity for them. They seem to vibrate a bit more freely than basses with corners of any type. They are also very awkward to carry but not to play.

[Thomas Erickson]

Maybe it has been covered and I missed it - but -

What is the thinking on corner blocks for these corner-less basses? Do the existing ones have them? If not, should they? I'm not sure why really, I like the look, but the whole idea of a corner-less bass seems to me like a flexible-flyer kind of deal... heheh...

As far as practicality with no corners, that is in terms of carrying/leaning and also playing I suppose, is it actually difficult to live with? Or just a matter of getting used to...

:cool:

[Ken Smith]

Maybe it has been covered and I missed it - but -

What is the thinking on corner blocks for these corner-less basses? Do the existing ones have them? If not, should they? I'm not sure why really, I like the look, but the whole idea of a corner-less bass seems to me like a flexible-flyer kind of deal... heheh...

As far as practicality with no corners, that is in terms of carrying/leaning and also playing I suppose, is it actually difficult to live with? Or just a matter of getting used to...

:cool:

I guess I will try answering one thought at a time with some modulation as necessary. ;)

Cornerless means basically no corners. Blocks as Corner Blocks will not be needed as there are no corners to glue to the blocks. I have watched many basses in progress being made and they are built from the Blocks and then onward.

Ass far as leaning a bass, in modern times in Orchestra leaning a bass on a chair is normal. Wedging it in the corner is ok for one bass but where do you get 8 corners to lean the section of bass?.. lol.. Then, there is just laying it down on its side which is what I have had to do on most occasions when taking this beast of mine out for a job.

I have seen some basses made with one piece ribs per side but had pasted/glued-on outer corner blocks but they were slightly rounded, not sharp at the edges. They also had corners on the top and back. The inside of the ribs were smooth all around on the one I examined internally. One bass I saw had corners on the plates, smooth one piece ribs and small blocks, 8 of them, glued to the ribs and under each corner of the top and back. They were beautifully scalloped and the curves of the chisel matched the button of the scroll. These ribs were scored inside to help bending and the linings were scored as well. This was a Guitar maker in my mind without any doubt.

Of all the cornerless basses I have seen in person and pictured, they look to me like an elongated guitar, shaped between a violin and viola d'gamba in form. This was the way the Italians made them. Many of the Luthiers were cross trained in Guitars, Mandolins, Viols and Violins as well.

The ribs on one bass I saw that were in excellent overall condition and scored internally were from a hard wood that was not at all thin. This helped I am sure keep the bass stable over the years. Another one that I own has laminated ribs of an original design. Vertical grained spruce with the grain running from top to back, bent all around in 2 pieces joining at the upper and lower blocks with a thinner outer layer of burled hard maple.

This is a very old bass and I do not see any deformity in the bass due to the cornerless design. It must have been made very well although nontraditional for the violin school. More of a cross-over design. This is one of the best sounding basses I have ever heard in my life, period.

Now, on carrying one of these basses with no corners at all, you have only the fingerboard and neck to grab for lifting and moving. Not so easy but you can get used to it.

[Thomas Erickson]

Cornerless means basically no corners. Blocks as Corner Blocks will not be needed as there are no corners to glue to the blocks. I have watched many basses in progress being made and they are built from the Blocks and then onward.


Thanks Ken, that's pretty much what I was getting at. Interesting.

[Ken Smith]

Thanks Ken, that's pretty much what I was getting at. Interesting.

You need to play a few of these old classics. I have seen so many of them pictured but only played on a few. They are amongst best sounding old basses I have played.

[Eric Hochberg]

Just found this one. Looks new?

http://www.seccioncontrabajo.com/e-store/michele-deconet-1765-p-475.html?zenid=3d797f6550afbdc64b76312193260a38

[Ken Smith]

Just found this one. Looks new?

http://www.seccioncontrabajo.com/e-store/michele-deconet-1765-p-475.html?zenid=3d797f6550afbdc64b76312193260a38

Michele Deconet (http://www.veniceresearch.com/deconet.htm) was known as a great Venetian Luthier but a Bass by him is doubtful. In one book actually the authors research leads him to believe that Deconet didn't make anything but did buy instruments from various makers, some of them lesser known makers and used his own label in them to sell. The gears look German, early 20th century. It might be a new Hungarian antiqued bass. The Scroll looks a bit modern to me. I am not convinced this bass has a chance to be as marked.

[Nathan Parker]

The button on the scroll looks pretty interesting, as do the F holes. I wish I could read the language that the description is written in. Has anyone played any of these fakes? I wonder if they sound any good, or how well made they are.

[Thomas Erickson]

Looks fake to me - no way a gnarly slab cut top that old is going to be in such good condition, and the scroll definitely doesn't look right.

I'm curious if the machines they're putting on these basses are also "reproductions" or if they're being plundered from someplace.

[Ken Smith]

The button on the scroll looks pretty interesting, as do the F holes. I wish I could read the language that the description is written in. Has anyone played any of these fakes? I wonder if they sound any good, or how well made they are.

I have seen, played, bought, sold and had restored some of these antiqued basses. The ones I sold were with full disclosure so no guilt there. I can't say that for some of the other dealers that have tried to pass fakes for something 'possibly' original. I offer no forgiveness for deliberate deception.

The sound can be quite good like any bass can if well made and designed but in the antiquing process, this is were the quality can fail. If you find a bass that is an antiqued fake and you like it, consider buying it like any other bass IF, the price is right AND, you know everything if anything has to be fixed and DO consider that within the price of the bass when making your deal or offer.

Do NOT buy it because it LOOKS like an old Italian bass and in 'La La Land' it might be. Believe me, if it IS the real deal, the Dealer will NOT be vague about IT or the price. A $200k bass for only $50K because it is not 100% certified as that exact maker? Doubtful.

Ever try and beat a used Car dealer at HIS game? Good luck with that!

[Thomas Erickson]

Nice post.

[Matthew Tucker]

Here's an odd one for the collection.

The pic comes from Patkolo's facebook pages ... the guy holding the cornerless bass with the archtop guitar/mandolin style FFs is tagged as Andrew Eungi Lee, a Korean bassist.

I know nothing more about it than this. It doesn't look old to me.

http://www.smithbassforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2461&stc=1&d=1342418391

[Ken Smith]

Here's an odd one for the collection.

The pic comes from Patkolo's facebook pages ... the guy holding the cornerless bass with the archtop guitar/mandolin style FFs is tagged as Andrew Eungi Lee, a Korean bassist.

I know nothing more about it than this. It doesn't look old to me.

http://www.smithbassforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2461&stc=1&d=1342418391

Thanks for posting this Matt. It looks a bit on the crude side so it can be something made recently to look old or its it is old, we just can't tell from this shot. My guess is that unless he has available fund$$ or someone else does, a school or family member, this is not the real thing.

This is the 2nd cornerless I have seen recently that is probably faked to look old. The other one is in a famous shop with a famous 18th century name attached. If it is authentic, then it has a replaced scroll, replaced back (looks brand new), replaced antiqued ribs and a replaced top. So, did I leave anything out?.. :eek:

[Matthew Tucker]

No I don't think it is old.

Nonetheless, it is still an authentic, real "guitar or pear-shaped" bass!

[Ken Smith]

No I don't think it is old.

Nonetheless, it is still an authentic, real "guitar or pear-shaped" bass!

Yes, it is indeed!

[Arnold Schnitzer]

It looks like it's been wearing a corset.

[Jeff Schwartz]

Check this out:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152343279530035&set=a.243159385034.297290.611705034&type=1&theater

(sorry for the Facebook link, it's all that's out there, as far as I know)

This is the text:

"I have a spectacular
instrument that should be in the hands of an active player. It is one
of the great basses in the U.S. and hasn't been on the market for
close to 70 years. I am now in the initial stage of putting news out
that this instrument is for sale. It is my bass, and this would be
entirely a private sale.

The bass was formerly owned by Herman Reinshagen, member of the New
York Philharmonic in the 30's, and teacher at Julliard. He was the
teacher of Fred Zimmerman, among many illustrious others. He retired
to Los Angeles, and that is where he was my teacher. Of course,
Zimmerman also taught at Julliard, as did Dave Walter, Zimerman's
student. Dave was my teacher at Manhattan School of Music
which I attended after leaving LA. I have had the bass since Reinshagen's
death in 1962.

The bass is early to mid 19th century, though some have placed it much
earlier. It is an instrument of superior sound and beauty. The bass is
simply a marvel to play. Most people cannot believe the tone they
immediately produce with it. It sings, and is a lovely solo
instrument, and yet has tremendous power and volume for orchestral
playing. I recently lent it for a couple of years, to an outstanding
player at the San Francisco Conservatory, one of those young fellow
who plays mainly in the thumb position. So it is recently and well
played. It is in perfect condition.

The bass is shaped like a guitar without the violin corners, and has a
carved handle made by Reinshagen for lifting. All the (various length)
end pins were carved by Reinshagen as well. I attach 2 photos."

and the image is attached. The perspective is weird and, of course, it's just one incomplete photo. Still, this sounds like an awesome and historic instrument relevant to this thread...

[Ken Smith]

Seen it before here;
http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?p=15247#post15247

I made some comments based on the pictures in the thread.