E&A strings reversed..

[Michael Harrison Jr.]

Ken, I just noticed on the 19th Century Italian that the owner let you photograph (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/19thcent_Italian/19thcent_Italian.html) has the strings wound on the tuners in a normal C extension method instead of how you normally see it without an extension. Was this done because the person is normally used to a C-extension or is there some benefit to doing it this way?

[Ken Smith]

Ken, I just noticed on the 19th Century Italian that the owner let you photograph (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/19thcent_Italian/19thcent_Italian.html) has the strings wound on the tuners in a normal C extension method instead of how you normally see it without an extension. Was this done because the person is normally used to a C-extension or is there some benefit to doing it this way?

Many players who have C-Ext's on other Basses string their non ext. Bass the same way so the E and A is always in the same place.

Personally, I think it opens the sound up a bit as well extending the after length. The Candi Bass is now strung that way as well and sounds great. The web pics of the Candi were taken before I switched the A and E around on the pegs. My Storioni is strung that way as well.
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Storioni/images/scroll_fr.jpg

[Drake Chan]

Many players who have C-Ext's on other Basses string their non ext. Bass the same way so the E and A is always in the same place.

Personally, I think it opens the sound up a bit as well extending the after length. The Candi Bass is now strung that way as well and sounds great. The web pics of the Candi were taken before I switched the A and E around on the pegs. My Storioni is strung that way as well.

I just switched the A and E strings from their normal respective pegs on my school's carved Juzek, I have to say that I am now a believer of this method.

In their previous "normal" positions, the A string lacked power and volume while the E string had decent power but felt really tight. Now, the A string is feels much tighter and has a good deal more volume. It feels and sounds very similar to the D string now. The E feels and sounds much looser and pliant now with the longer afterlength. But the biggest benefit of the switch is that the E has a much broader and bigger bottom. Playing it open, it now sounds almost organ-like, though perhaps a bit less direct.

I love the sound up close, but I don't know what it sounds like far away (which I think is more relevant to the audience). But for now, count me as a convert.

I also had problems with a harsh G string, so I put a Pirastro rubber tone filter on my G string. Meh, give me a couple of days, but I think it sounded better without it. I've been told that a soundpost adjustment may be the reason the bass seems to hate G strings (I've tried a Flexocor, Original and '92, and I've tried an Obligato; they all had a twangy guitar quality to them. The current Helicore orchestral seems to work best so far). I really need to get this bass setup one of these days.

[Ken Smith]

It's not just the length change when switching, it's also the angle of pull. The A-string is now a much sharper bend and the 'E' is shallower than before. Considering the thickness of the E-string (.105 avg) combined with the normal sharp angle pull, the switching to the upper peg is a drastic change. Perhaps the 'freedom' given to the string when moving it to the A-peg reflects back in the sound and tension as well.

[Ken Smith]

I moved this from the 'Candi Sale (http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?p=7960#post7960)' thread over to here as it is a completely different topic discussion...

[Michael Harrison Jr.]

Will unwinding the E & A at the same time reduce enough pressure to let the soundpost fall, or should it be ok? I'd like to test this on my bass.

[Anselm Hauke]

very interesting topic,

i once have seen a bass that was strung this way (see picture). now i begin to understand why

[Ken Smith]

Will unwinding the E & A at the same time reduce enough pressure to let the soundpost fall, or should it be ok? I'd like to test this on my bass.

Lie the Bass down carefully and loosen the D and G slightly as well so the Bridge doesn't try lifting. The Post is held more by the G and D than the A and E but be careful of bridge movement while doing this. In the winter, the Post is usually tighter.

[Ken Smith]

very interesting topic,

i once have seen a bass that was strung this way (see picture). now i begin to understand why

Now that's drastic. The thickest string the highest and the thinnest the lowest. Looks like some re-learning is in order here as far as tuning goes. Still, I turn the wrong peg on occasion as not all of my 'E' are up high, just most of them. Also, I spent my whole life with the E being the lowest so even if all the Basses are strung the same, in a pinch I grab the wrong tuner.

[Michael Harrison Jr.]

Eh, this is Orlando....we don't get winters :D

[davidseidel]

Now that's drastic. The thickest string the highest and the thinnest the lowest. Looks like some re-learning is in order here as far as tuning goes. Still, I turn the wrong peg on occasion as not all of my 'E' are up high, just most of them. Also, I spent my whole life with the E being the lowest so even if all the Basses are strung the same, in a pinch I grab the wrong tuner.
I recently saw a bass strung following a theory that the lowest string should have the longest distance at the pegbox. Therefore i think only the A stays in normal position, the E goes where the D usually is etc. A pro player here who is also a luthier was working in Paris a few months back and visited a shop where he found all the basses even the cheap ones sounded and played so well and he noticed that they were all set up like this. He tried it when he got home and swears his bass sounds and plays better than it ever has. Haven't tried it myself - anyone else?

[Drake Chan]

I recently saw a bass strung following a theory that the lowest string should have the longest distance at the pegbox. Therefore i think only the A stays in normal position, the E goes where the D usually is etc. A pro player here who is also a luthier was working in Paris a few months back and visited a shop where he found all the basses even the cheap ones sounded and played so well and he noticed that they were all set up like this. He tried it when he got home and swears his bass sounds and plays better than it ever has. Haven't tried it myself - anyone else?

Actually, I think whether this orientation will work or not depends from bass to bass.

On my bass, the A string in its "normal" position sounded pretty weak and flabby, while the E string had more bite to its sound but felt too tight. But in their current positions, (E on the A-peg, and A on the E-peg) they sound much better. The A string feels much tighter now and sounds more direct with more bite, while the E feels much looser and sounds more sonorous with a nice low end. I've mentioned all this in my post above.

So basically, you can string your bass in the manner you described above; it will probably improve your sound overall. But I think the best way to decide if this is right way for you is to listen to your current setup and figure out which strings need improvement and how.

I find that a shorter after-length combined with a sharper angle where the string crosses the nut leads to a brighter sound that has more bite, as well as a tighter feel to the string. A longer after-length with a gentler angle leads to a more sonorous and richer sound, as well as a looser feel. However, a longer after-length can also lead to a weaker and flabbier sound, so be cautious about that.

[Anselm Hauke]

A pro player here who is also a luthier was working in Paris a few months back and visited a shop where he found all the basses even the cheap ones sounded and played so well

i took the photo in paris, maybe it´s the same shop?

(but the bass in the pic didn´t sound that good to me)

[Matthew Tucker]

He tried it when he got home and swears his bass sounds and plays better than it ever has. Haven't tried it myself - anyone else?

Has he also tried a compensating tailpiece? If on that bass it works at one end of the string, its probably going to work extending the afterlength at the other end ... and maybe easier to install and get used to tuning ...

http://www.smithbassforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=501&d=1201522735

Anselme, that's an interesting pegbox with its open back - don't see them very often. Also the spacing of the machines in two "pairs". Do you remember what bass that was? I've only see machines installed like that by another local maker.

[Anselm Hauke]

Anselme, that's an interesting pegbox with its open back - don't see them very often. Also the spacing of the machines in two "pairs". Do you remember what bass that was? I've only see machines installed like that by another local maker.

it was a vuillaume st. cecile. (at least that´s what the luthier said...)
i have some more pics if you´re interested

[Matthew Tucker]

Love to see more pics!

[Anselm Hauke]

ok matthew, here we go.

iirc the bass had on original string lenth of 98cm (38,5")
the luthier changed the neck, now it has 108cm (42,5")
i will not comment this, if you have your own opinion what a well proportioned bass is, well...:o

the sound was a little to harsh and bright for my taste.

i´m not sure if its a real vuillaume. although the st. ceciles were a kind of economyclass-instruments, this one seems to be too less accurate made, imho.

i am courious what ken (and arnold?) will say.

[Anselm Hauke]

three more pics

[Matthew Tucker]

Thanks for posting those Anselme

That is one peculiar looking bass, particularly around the neck region. Kinda looks like a regular bass with a "cello" style top stuck onto it. Is all that carving (double button etc) all part of the design, or is it a result of a reconstruction somehow?

From the side, the neck heel looks rather weird ... how to be sure where your D stop is with such a wide heel curvature!

looking again at those machines, they can't be original? sure looks to me like the whole pegbox has been reworked in an "individual" way.

mt

[Ken Smith]

Thanks for posting those Anselme

That is one peculiar looking bass, particularly around the neck region. Kinda looks like a regular bass with a "cello" style top stuck onto it. Is all that carving (double button etc) all part of the design, or is it a result of a reconstruction somehow?

From the side, the neck heel looks rather weird ... how to be sure where your D stop is with such a wide heel curvature!

looking again at those machines, they can't be original? sure looks to me like the whole pegbox has been reworked in an "individual" way.

mt

Matt, you need to get out more. That is THE typical 19th century French Bass, Violincello model. It may have originated as a design by Vuillaume but I see it on just about every French makers Violin cornered Bass from about 1850-1900.

[Matthew Tucker]

That's why I'm here. :)

We get to see heaps of german/bohemian-type basses over here, but not too many french ones like that one ...

hey, why doesn't my avatar roll its eyes on this forum? they roll on TB ...

[Anselm Hauke]

i added 3 pics of the vuillaume in post#18

[Ken Smith]

three more pics

Beautiful Bass by the way. Also, besides this Bass with the unusual Peg stringing order it was the French that in the 19th century placed the lower pitched E and A gears above the higher pitched G and D gears.

I did this to the Martini myself to lengthen the E and A string. When the Extension was put on, the inner throat area of the peg box had to be notched because of the Gear being so high up on the Scroll was touching. Now, instead of doing that, I just switch the strings between the A and E as it would happen with an Ext.

Here are some examples. The first is the Martini followed by a French Bass, then also a Pollmann, a Bass modded by Alfred Meyer and my 5er.
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/MartiniBass/extE.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Bisch/images/bisch-009.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Pollmann/images/pollmann-003.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Viennnese/vien9.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Mystery2/5str_imgs/m2_pf.JPG

All of the Basses with reversed 'tuners' have the lowest string on the normal peg but one position higher. It is the Basses with normal placed tuners that this extended E stringing benefits the most as well as the French method.

As you can see in this picture or the martini, even the A is up higher with the French tuner positions. Maybe this is the best overall method!
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/MartiniBass/ScrollFront.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/MartiniBass/extG.jpg

[davidseidel]

That's why I'm here. :)

We get to see heaps of german/bohemian-type basses over here, but not too many french ones like that one ...


hey, why doesn't my avatar roll its eyes on this forum? they roll on TB ...

Actually Matthew there are some around and actually I have had 3 over the years. Each time I put one for sale in the Bass Shop and no buyers at bargain price (I think), so I sold overseas for more $s. 2 of them had that same shape - one was a Paul Claudot. Have to keep your eye out because they will disappear if no players here prepared to pay for one! ...:rolleyes:.. There are quite a few English basses here too mostly in Orchestras esp Sydney.

[Anselm Hauke]

my alfred meyer

[Ken Smith]

my alfred meyer

The Bass Scroll I pictured (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Viennnese/Viennnese.htm) above is not a Meyer Bass. It is an older instrument that was cut smaller in the early 20th century. The label inside says 'repaired by..." (not sure of the exact wording in German). Meyer cut the original Top smaller all around and made new Ribs and Back. He also installed the new Tuners which are not as well matched to the Scroll cheeks as would be if the brass plates were original.

I have seen a few basses by Meyer over the years and they all have the lower gears reversed with the E longer than the G.

[Michael Harrison Jr.]

Well, gonna go with the E/A swap today, I'll let y'all know how it works out on my el'cheapo bass

XD

[Michael Harrison Jr.]

E-A Swap has been performed! I like it. E didn't change very much in my opinion, although I do think it sounds a little cleaner. My A string however is LOVING the change. The A, which before on mine seemed to be "lacking" and dull, has great new life. It's bright and edgy, without being obtrusive. It really makes me want to try this on my D and G now. Here is some pics. Warning, the are fairly large. And please no laughing at my el cheapo ; ; One of these days I'll get to upgrade to something decent. http://www.dakpluto.net/pictures/ae1.jpg http://www.dakpluto.net/pictures/ae2.jpg http://www.dakpluto.net/pictures/ae3.jpg

[Drake Chan]

E-A Swap has been performed! I like it. E didn't change very much in my opinion, although I do think it sounds a little cleaner. My A string however is LOVING the change. The A, which before on mine seemed to be "lacking" and dull, has great new life. It's bright and edgy, without being obtrusive. It really makes me want to try this on my D and G now. Here is some pics. Warning, the are fairly large. And please no laughing at my el cheapo ; ; One of these days I'll get to upgrade to something decent. ......

The same thing happened to my A string. It just had a really wimpy sound and feel to it before, both pizz and arco. I really had no idea it would affect it so much. Honestly, I did the switch only to get a looser feeling and more sonorous E string sound, since it felt sort of like a bridge cable before. I never really imagined that the switch would cure the weak A string as well. It sounds and feels like the D string now: tight, punchy, yet warm.

The G string has been improved with the Pirastro rubber tone filter, but it will still squeak under hard bowing. A lighter touch with the bow as well as a quicker stroke will prevent that from happening.

[Michael Harrison Jr.]

ok, it's 2 Weeks later so good time for an update on my swap.

I still LOVE the swap. It has produced a lot of new spark in my el cheapo bass. I was debating the switch of the D and G, but as I've been playing it more I've decided all 4 strings are now sounding great to each other.

So overall, I'm really glad this topic came up as I feel it breathed some great new life into my bass.

[Richard Prowse]

I'm very close to changing over the E & A on my cheap bass too... here's hoping!

[Richard Prowse]

It's 11pm, I'm tired after a very long day but, I've just made the change. Too tired to be subjective, although I think I notice a difference. My funny Ab, just below the octave A on the A string, is still there... so no magic. I'll look forward to tomorrow and hope the change is for the better!

[Anselm Hauke]

I'll look forward to tomorrow and hope the change is for the better!

a good motto for every day, richard!

[Richard Prowse]

a good motto for every day, richard!
Though not your last day, I suppose.
By the way, I climed Anselm's Hill this evening.

[Richard Prowse]

I played my bass this morning and both the E & A strings seemed to have quite an 'open' sound. It think there has been a gain! Time will tell.

[Ken Smith]

My Loveri is fresh out of Restoration and it is now strung in reverse but the Tuners are in the normal configuration. Also shown is the Extended False Nut I made to shorten the String Length under 42" and D-Neck stop at the Heel.
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Loveri/rest_images/scr_R.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Loveri/rest_images/scr_fr.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Loveri/rest_images/scr_L.jpg

[Richard Prowse]

Sorry for reviving what is probably a well worn topic. I've had my E & A reversed since my last comment February and, to be honest, haven't noticed much difference. When I put my Bel Cantos on, I kept the same format. I've been playing only unamplified gigs lately, but played my first amplified gig with the BCs last Saturday. The venue was a very bass unfriendly place and the band played louder than I like to play my double bass (well into electric bass teritory). I noticed that the E & A strings seemed louder than the D & G. This could just be the BCs amplified, or the lousy acoustics of the venue, but, there you go.

[Drake Chan]

Last October or so, I had my bass fixed up and setup by Jeff Bollbach. His work was truly fantastic, and my bass sounded and played better than ever. I however, neglected to get my fingerboard planed and dressed because it was a bit out of my budget at the time.

I ran into a few problems afterwards, however:
- Jeff noted that there were a couple of high spots on the fingerboard in thumb position on the G string. These high spots came to haunt me later as the colder weather came around.
- the G string, a Flexocor, was noticeably more nasally than any Flexocor that I have played. I had acquired it used, and it was nasally on other basses as well.
- The high spots tended to hit the G string when the string was bowed. I believe they acted as harmonics and caused the G string to squeak and squeal badly.
- My A string....was just not there. It didn't play particularly well with the bow, and it required a good deal of bow pressure to get it to vibrate with the bow. It also sounded pretty dull.
- The G on the D string had a terrible wolf tone.
- Thumb position was still pretty hard to play on the bass.

1. So I had first tried to change my G string to an old Helicore G I had around - it was even worse. So I put the Flexocor back on.

2. Next, I lowered the E to a low D. This relieved a lot of the tension on the bass, and made it easier to play all around. It also made the bass more sonorous and full-sounding overall. But the other problems still remained.

3. When I finally had enough of the squeaky and buzzing G string, I decided to get a new Flexocor G. But then, I raised the bridge adjusters, and both the squeaks and rattles were gone. That problem was solved; however, the rest of the problems remained, and the bass was now a tad harder to play - that said, it was also easier to play without a squeaky and buzzing G string bothering me.

4. I had stopped playing for a while, as it was a bit discouraging to play my bass. I had always wanted to swap the E and A strings from their respective pegs, and I even wanted to tell Jeff to do it for me when I picked up my bass last October. But I figured at that time: why fix what wasn't broken?

Today, I decided to make the switch....and the difference has been nothing short of stupendous - almost all my problems have been fixed. Let's hope it stays that way. *cross my fingers*

With the E (low D, actually) and A switched, I believe the bass has much lower tension before overall. And it shows while playing: thumb position has been almost a breeze, and I managed to get in close to 2 hours of practice because it was so much easier to play now.

The A string, which was once difficult to bow, is much easier to bow. It still sound a bit dull, just less dull.

The bad wolf tone I had gotten whenever I bowed the G on the D string....was totally gone. Or hidden. Whatever it is.

But the biggest change was on my G string. Previously, it sounded nasally when bowed on almost any position. Now? It merely sounds bright, which is much, much more tolerable.




Who knew that swapping those two strings could do so much! Perhaps there are other reasons why everything changed for the better. I don't know.

Soundwise, the bass has a bit less volume, I feel, up close. Dunno what it sounds like further away. But it's a tradeoff that I'm definitely willing to live with.

[Richard Prowse]

Who knew that swapping those two strings could do so much! Perhaps there are other reasons why everything changed for the better. I don't know.
Evidently you can get the same results by chanting,
"Nan Myoho Renge Kyo."