Set up differences/jazz and classical players

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I've been curious about the priorities and methods of general bass set up.
As a relatively inexperienced player, compared to others here, I have a lot to learn, but I've played a lot of different basses, both at jazz jam sessions, and shops catering to primarily classical players or jazz players.

At a recent jam session I had the unexpected opportunity to play a few tunes on a Prescott bass that cost upwards of $25K. The strings were hiked up higher than any bass I've ever played; so much that it was painful after just a few minutes. It did put out some sound though, but if you can't play what's in your head, what's the point.:confused: I'll be going back for more this weekend.;)

At the other extreme are basses with fb's nearly straight and strings almost touching the board. These are the easiest to play, but you give up some volume.

I'm somewhere in the later camp for sure.

At the risk of opening a can of worms, I wonder if we could benefit from a discussion: How to set up a bass for various styles of play. What are the considerations for planing a fb, cutting a bridge etc. How do they differ for pizz and arco play.

I understand that the there isn't a Jazz setup or a Classical setup, but rather a combination of elements that accomodate a particular players style and wishes.

Thoughts anyone?

[Ken Smith]

I gave a few answers in another Thread here and suggested to Greg to start this new Set-up Thread. I would like to post my previous replies and thoughts to start and get this ball rolling.

All the guys I have used for repairs and set-ups in the past do work for all types of players.

I have seen quite a varied preference of height, width and arch from both Orchestral and Jazz players. I will venture to say that there is no such thing as a Jazz or Classical set-up at all but rather just preferred set-up Specs depending on the actual Player.

Set-up starts with the Bass itself and the Fingerboard radius you have. If you like a certain arch and the Fingerboard is over or under rounded for the way you like it, the Bridge arch will not give the desired height from string to string across the FB. In this case, it needs to be re-worked or replaced. If the Neck is set too low to the Top, it may be difficult to get the strings low enough. Re-setting the Neck stand is a common Professional modification that improves the possibility of getting the desired set-up.

As each Bass is different, it is important to have the Bass in its best possible condition before the set-up begins. If not, the work will be a compromise for a less that optimum set-up.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

There are many set-up variations for both classical and jazz players. To generalize, classical players need more arch in the fingerboard, which helps with clean arco string crossings. Most jazz players like the board a little flatter in the arch, which makes it easier to cross strings pizzicato. When strings are set high, and the bass is to be bowed, a lot of fingerboard and bridge arch is required, and the strings may need to be spaced farther apart. That's because when you press an individual string to the fingerboard you move it down a lot compared to its adjacent strings. This makes bowing cleanly on one string very difficult. As far as camber (longitudinal scoop), gut strings need more. Players who pluck hard generally need more. Players who fire the strings downward (plucking finger toward the bass' belly) need more. A flattish arch is good for finesse players and easy-going bowers, also classical soloists. These are all generalizations; every player needs something a little bit different.

[Bob Branstetter]

While there may be no "official" designation of jazz or classical setups, IMO, they certainly do exist as de facto standards. The great majority of my doublebass setups are for jazz players and while there are certainly exceptions, the great majority of jazz players who come to me want setups where the strings are as close as possible to the fingerboard, without any buzzing while pulling the strings as hard as they would ever pull them. This usually means a fairly flat arch and strings fairly close together. For most classical players, this would be the last thing in the world they would want for playing arco.

One of the first questions I ask a new customer is whether they want their bass setup for jazz or classical. Even if jazz or classical setups do not exist, the customers always seem to know what I am talking about.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

When I bought my Upton, I told them I wanted it set up for jazz play with the strings close to the fingerboard. I wasn't experienced' enough to give any more information regarding string spacing or radius. The bass arrived almost exactly the way I expected although I might prefer less scoop in the fb and I did cut the nut slots a bit deeper. My teacher commented on the nice setup. Since his main bass was set up by Bob, I take it as a compliment.;) Aside from the sheer size of his bass, it's got an incredible setup and tone.

Question, Why do basses vary so much regarding tension? Is it the tailpiece , the thickness of the top? What is it?

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Set-up starts with the Bass itself and the Fingerboard radius you have. If you like a certain arch and the Fingerboard is over or under rounded for the way you like it, the Bridge arch will not give the desired height from string to string across the FB.

You're not saying that a player should make the best of a fingerboard radius or scoop that doesn't quite fit their preference are you?

I would think that assuming the neck is set correctly, a properly planed fingerboard would be the first step. No?

[Ken Smith]

You're not saying that a player should make the best of a fingerboard radius or scoop that doesn't quite fit their preference are you?

I would think that assuming the neck is set correctly, a properly planed fingerboard would be the first step. No?

I am saying that the Bass can only be set-up as good as the Bass is Neck wise etc. Fingerboard planing or replacing is a bit more than a set-up. I regard set-up as nut, bridge height etc. FB planing etc, is more of a repair to me to correct movement in the neck OR undesired cambering from a previous luthier. Sometimes it is just not how you want it.

I got this on Bass from the UK and it looked like it was adjusted for King Kong. The dealer said it was a standard London Orchestra set-up. I have to have the FB re-cambered, cut a new nut 1mm closer spaced per string, lower the strings and re-cut the bridge arch as well as move them closer 1mm just to play it and not be in pain.

That to me a a bit more than just a set-up but more common than you would think when Basses change hands. Just my opinion here.

Neck sets are often not optimum for playing from what I have seen. Ask Arnold and Jeff how often they re-set a Neck and the percentage of Basses that can and have benefited from this whether it was actually done or not.

[Bob Branstetter]

Fingerboard planing or replacing is a bit more than a set-up. I regard set-up as nut, bridge height etc. FB planing etc, is more of a repair to me to correct movement in the neck OR undesired cambering from a previous luthier. Sometimes it is just not how you want it.I have always considered dressing/planning of the fingerboard to be an integral part of any setup. If the fingerboard is not right to begin with, IMO, it would be a total waste of time to do anything meaningful to the nut or bridge. I can't start to count how many times I've had people call me and tell me that they want the "action" lowered and "all the is needed is to lowering the nut and bridge". 95 times out of a 100, the "real" problem is with the fingerboard.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

I have always considered dressing/planning of the fingerboard to be an integral part of any setup. If the fingerboard is not right to begin with, IMO, it would be a total waste of time to do anything meaningful to the nut or bridge. I can't start to count how many times I've had people call me and tell me that they want the "action" lowered and "all the is needed is to lowering the nut and bridge". 95 times out of a 100, the "real" problem is with the fingerboard.
Applause!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:)

[Ken Smith]

Applause!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:)


I agree Arnold and Bob BUT, my point is that after the FB is done, the Bass can still be set-up 6 ways from Sunday!

I have changed the set-up on several of my Basses as far as height and spacing without needing the already worked FB re-done. Just because some people need more or less camber than others it doesn't mean the FB 'always' has to be done over.

Can we agree on this gentleman? and Arnold?:D (lol goes there..lol)

Talk about dissin the host.. geesszzz..:(

[Arnold Schnitzer]

I think the main point Bob was making, to which I applauded, was this: very often, the fingerboard is a mess, and no amount of adjusting to the bridge, nut, post, or camshaft will make that bass play well. No disrespect meant, Ken. :eek:

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Camshaft? Wrong forum?:confused:WTFIT:confused:

[Bob Branstetter]

No disrespect meant, Ken. :eek:
I'll second that.

[Ken Smith]

I think the main point Bob was making, to which I applauded, was this: very often, the fingerboard is a mess, and no amount of adjusting to the bridge, nut, post, or camshaft will make that bass play well. No disrespect meant, Ken. :eek:

I agree 100% with that especially in your business which is why they came there in the to begin with. If it wasn't broke, they wouldn't need it fixed in the first place.

Again, my point in set-up is set-up and not repair. I agree that the FB must be right to do the best set-up but if the FB is ok and you make all the other adjustments needed for the player or desired style of playing, isn't that setting up the Bass as well?

Bob? Arnold? Jeff?

Lets make a menu of all the points concerning the set-up, shall we? Also, what if the FB is thin and re-cambering will not be as effective on a thin board as it would be on a new thicker board. Would putting a new board on the Bass be part of set-up? Would a new Bridge be part of set-up?

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Again, where is the camshaft on a bass?

[Ken Smith]

Again, where is the camshaft on a bass?

As the saying goes, "if you have to ask, you can't afford it"...:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

As the saying goes, "if you have to ask, you can't afford it"...:D:D:D:D:D:D
You elitist snob.....................;)

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Lets make a menu of all the points concerning the set-up, shall we?

1) Fingerboard
2) Nut
3) Bridge
4) Soundpost
5) Tailpiece
6) Strings

Have I missed anything, fellas?

[Ken Smith]

[quote=Ken Smith;448]
Lets make a menu of all the points concerning the set-up, shall we?

1) Fingerboard
2) Nut
3) Bridge
4) Soundpost
5) Tailpiece
6) Strings

Have I missed anything, fellas?

The Camshaft, aka 'End Pin'. Can't play without one..:D

And, what if the Neck is too thick and needs to be carved down for the player or the Neck is too weak and needs Graphite reinforcement rods and then a new FB. Would the Neck in itself be part of the set-up if it needs to be worked on?

Or, how about the Neck stand or pitch. If the Neck set causes the Bridge to be low or it is hard to Bow a 5 1/2" tall bridge with 1/2" string height and not hit the C-bouts, is correcting the Neck stand/Pitch/Bridge height factor part of the set-up or a Repair in itself?

So, where do we draw the line here between Set-up and Repair or alteration? That, is the question!

Or, is Set-up in itself actually a Repair that doesn't require the Top to come off or a crack patched from the outside?

[Bob Branstetter]

The 6 items Arnold mentioned (Fingerboard, Nut, Bridge, Soundpost, Tailpiece, & Strings) covers what I consider to be normal setup work. IMO, the neck work that Ken mentioned is repair work that would be done prior to or in addition to normal setup work.

[Ken Smith]

The 6 items Arnold mentioned (Fingerboard, Nut, Bridge, Soundpost, Tailpiece, & Strings) covers what I consider to be normal setup work. IMO, the neck work that Ken mentioned is repair work that would be done prior to or in addition to normal setup work.

Bob, at what point if any is anything to do with the FB an actual repair and not set-up?

Also, how many times have you seen an over cambered FB be the result of a week Neck under the FB or due to an overly thinned FB. Is putting on a new FB a repair if it helps to strengthen the Neck because it can't be corrected in the Camber or is it still set-up because you didn't actually re-carve or put Graphite rods in the Neck?

[Bob Branstetter]

Bob, at what point if any is anything to do with the FB an actual repair and not set-up?

Also, how many times have you seen an over cambered FB be the result of a week Neck under the FB or due to an overly thinned FB. Is putting on a new FB a repair if it helps to strengthen the Neck because it can't be corrected in the Camber or is it still set-up because you didn't actually re-carve or put Graphite rods in the Neck?
I think this is largely a matter of semantics. IMO, Replacing a fingerboard, regluing a loose FB, or neck work are not part of the setup itself, although it is sometimes necessary to do these repairs before a normal setup is possible.

[Ken Smith]

I think this is largely a matter of semantics. IMO, Replacing a fingerboard, re-gluing a loose FB, or neck work are not part of the setup itself, although it is sometimes necessary to do these repairs before a normal setup is possible.

Yes, semantics was exactly what I was getting at. You and Arnold regard set-up as mentioned in the earlier posts while a musician taking his Bass in may just consider his Bass needs to be fixed!

Also, I regard set-up as to what a Bass player with some knowledge can do on his own if he has some training if the FB it properly cambered. I have re-cut or re-slotted most of the Bridges on my Basses and re-filed the Nuts as needed. On occasion I have made, re-spaced, shimmed or even put on a false nut to alter the String Length. This I call set-up as well.

[Ken Smith]

Whew.. now that I finished cleaning off my shoes after stepping into that debate, lets get back to topic.

I have used spacing as tight as 23.5/24mm and as wide as 27 mm. The 27mm is recent as Arnold likes that for Bowing and does from 26-27mm on my Basses that might go up for sale after I break in the Bass. This would be an orchestra set-up. Last week I had a visitor that played Jazz, acoustic only with Gut strings and preferred wider spacing and higher string height. His set-up was close to the highest and widest I have seen and he plucks at the edge of the FB towards the bridge. He plays hard and loud and loves the oldies like Blanton, S.Jones, Chambers, R.Brown and Mingus etc.

On the opposite note, I still have the Bridge from my old Italian Bass that I played both Jazz and Classical styles on and the spacing is about 23.5-24mm per string center-to-center.

This was what I meant about there being no standards. Brian Bromberg and Stanley Clarke prefer ultra low action while others are up there with the classical guys height wise. Also, while most Classical players prefer higher action, there are some that like it lower and tighter.

[Bob Branstetter]

Yes, semantics was exactly what I was getting at. You and Arnold regard set-up as mentioned in the earlier posts while a musician taking his Bass in may just consider his Bass needs to be fixed!
A musician can consider it anything he wants, but when you are running a shop that caters to a wide range of customers, you have to have a (shop) definition of what the term setup means. You, as a customer/musician, are welcome to specify anything you wish, but that does not change my shop definition of what work will normally considered part of a normal setup. If you call me asking about a "setup", I will tell you what that normally entails. If you want more than that (and are willing to pay extra for it), I'll gladly do the work. However, MY Shop defintion of what a normal setup consist of is unchanged.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Also, while most Classical players prefer higher action, there are some that like it lower and tighter.

Did you say "Action"? :confused:

[Ken Smith]

Did you say "Action"? :confused:

Yes, I did and for a reason. It's the easiest most common single word to describe the string height and feel without writing a short story to make someone understand what you are talking about concerning the UPRIGHT Bass.. Action on the Upright!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D:D:D

[Arnold Schnitzer]

I quit. Pick up all your stuff.

[Ken Smith]

I quit. Pick up all your stuff.

And I just got another Bass to keep you employed for the rest of the year.. What a shame..:(

[Bob Branstetter]

Did you say "Action"? :confused:Hey Arnold, atleast he didn't say "fretboard"! Oh, I forgot, that's Warburton's hot button.

[Ken Smith]

Hey Arnold, atleast he didn't say "fretboard"! Oh, I forgot, that's Warburton's hot button.

Don't laugh Bob. Believe me, I was thinking of throwing that in as well.

"The words we don't wanna here on the TB side"
Fretboard
Action (but I like this one!!)
Stand-up Bass
Headstock
Scale Length (added).. Isn't String length a description of the scale of the Bass? Are we that snobby over here?:rolleyes:

Any more guys?

[Jim Gullen]

"The words we don't wanna here on the TB side"
Fretboard
Action (but I like this one!!)
Stand-up Bass
Headstock

Any more guys?

Please refrain from "Scale length"....

....Mensure sounds so much more sophisiticated! ;)

Best regards!

Jim

[Ken Smith]

Please refrain from "Scale length"....

....Mensure sounds so much more sophisiticated! ;)

Best regards!

Jim

Mensure? Sounds like a female thing. I would almost prefer scale length..lol :D

Also, when I ask, what's your measurements, I have to be careful who I ask. Might get a slap if I'm not careful. :(

No Miss, I mean your bouts, rib depth and string length..:eek:

[Jim Gullen]

Mensure? Sounds like a female thing. I would almost prefer scale length..lol :D

I think it's more a leopard can't change his spots kinda thing. Admit it, you're REALLY just an EBG guy, hanging out with us more sophisticated types! :p :D

Also, when I ask, what's your measurements, I have to be careful who I ask. Might get a slap if I'm not careful. :(



Does this bass make my butt look fat? :confused: :eek: :( ...:D

Best regards!

Jim

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Does this bass make my butt look fat? :confused: :eek: :( ...:D

Best regards!

Jim

Nope, I saw your butt before you got the bass.:D