Old Bass spotted..

[Ken Smith]

While surfing TB I saw a thread about an interesting looking Bass (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=464551). I knew about what it was age and origin wise and then read it was recently converted to 5-strings. While looking at the the Bass, it's wear, shoulder cut, repairs, FFs and knots on the Back I thought to myself, "could it be"?

Back around 1978 while working at the Westbury Music Fair I was hired to play for Gospel Singer/B'way star Linda Hopkins. She was the opener for Sammy Davis Jr. His bass player was Al McKibbon who has that beautiful attributed Stainer Bass. We worked side by side in the Pit for a week and one night I brought in my camera and took a few pics of us and our Basses. Mine with him, his with me, the basses side by side at a few angles etc. The camera however was one of those re-called instant Kodaks so there is no film, just a poor slightly faded pic, or rather a bunch of them.

Now, I pulled out the Pics and found all the exact same markings that were on my Bass. THAT is my old Bass which in the early 90s was sold thru Biase to a player in Europe. Like adoptions, he would not tell me who or where but somewhere over there..:(

This IS my old Bass that I bought in 1973, had it restored by Peter Eibert and later touched up by Biase and used it for 15 years day in and day out. Like a magnet, those pictures as seen below kept me awake at night this week.

Front (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=101209&d=1219842367)
Back (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=101211&d=1219842756)
Side (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=101210&d=1219842367)
Head (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=101212&d=1219842756)

The Gears my/that Bass were chrome or nickle and had skate key handles bent inwards as the center in a letter 'A' shape. Kolstein (Sam) dated the Gears on my Bass to about 1880. These are newer versions but who ever converted the Bass would know I'm telling the truth. I can also describe the Label and what was written on it. We never believed the label 100% and the Scroll although old may not match the Bass or maker either. It had about 4 graft scars that I recall. Now, it has 5!

http://www.lemur-music.com/images/vin_03rocc-sc.jpg

[Phil Maneri]

Oh Man. I'll bet you wish you had that one back.

[Ken Smith]

Oh Man. I'll bet you wish you had that one back.

Hey, you saw a few of my Basses when you came by, right? I think I'm past that a bit now. The Gilkes, Martini, Hart and Storioni all have more power. Only the Hart and Storioni compare in sweetness but both of them have more projection.

But, would love to have it back.. ;)

[Phil Maneri]

Hey, you saw a few of my Basses when you came by, right? I think I'm past that a bit now. The Gilkes, Martini, Hart and Storioni all have more power. Only the Hart and Storioni compare in sweetness but both of them have more projection.

But, would love to have it back.. ;)
Well I suppose you can't have them ALL...

[Ken Smith]

Well I suppose you can't have them ALL...

No, not really. Plus, it looks funny on the Top under the Fingerboard. Maybe there was some work done there for the bigger Neck and possibly a new Block. That Top was totally sunk when I bought it. I think 4 strings is plenty for that Bass after all it's been thru. If the sound was 'all that' for an old Italian Bass, they would have never turned her into a 5er. That's usually reserved for secondary Basses, not primary ones..

[Phil Maneri]

Oh well it's a piece of junk then.

[Ken Smith]

Oh well it's a piece of junk then.

Not even close. I was just comparing good basses to better basses.. ;)

Don't start!:mad:

[Mikko Moilanen]

Hello!
I have few pictures from the WOB to spear with you.
I will add more as I have my USB with camera to computer done.

Yes, currently I have the bass. Actually here in Italy on our tour.

And check out the bridge after Da Salo.

Amazing bass.. I hope to have the inlay photographed for tomorrow..

[Mikko Moilanen]

More pix

It seems that the good basic work with the structure has given more to the depth and projectile of the sound.
Amazing bass.. Through and through. The whole sound as rich it is becomes more, on daily basis.
Even as my friends and colleagues are teasing me with "you have to make it a 4 string" I deny this hypothesis for now.
The lowest string, as called H, is now tuned to A# or C. As with my previous 5ers this brings just everything more.
Let us see.. Still a great bass!

It really is like putting a good extension to a fine italian bass.. Just opens it alot more!

[Ken Smith]

My old Flame..:(

You guys have no idea the memories that are coming back to me as I look at this Bass. Also, if not for selling it when I did, I wouldn't have the House I live in now either. I had to make the 'near' ultimate sacrifice.

As many of you know, I had been searching for a replacement for about 7 years. The Storioni Cornerless Bass I got last year took care of that. At first though, I was really interested to find this Bass in Europe and buy it back. However, it was in use then with a professional orchestra. Now though, it has been modified to a 5-string and now in Mikko's hands who I know will look after her like I would. I feel much better knowing that she's fine and in good hands..

Now, can you please come over here Mikko and help me learn this crazy Nielsen's 4th (http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?p=9249#post9249). It's driving me batty..

[Mikko Moilanen]

hehe, try the 5th.
first time i played that symphony nobody in our section looked to the note.
"you just have to memorize it". yes, sir.. indeed!

we played nielsens 4th a few times on tour. once again "you just have to memorize it and remember those sforzatos!".
it surely is a pain to play. but still, we played it glorious and i have to admit all that PAINFUL work really paid out. and first times i played it.. it was televized!
:eek:

[Ken Smith]

hehe, try the 5th.
first time i played that symphony nobody in our section looked to the note.
"you just have to memorize it". yes, sir.. indeed!

we played nielsens 4th a few times on tour. once again "you just have to memorize it and remember those sforzatos!".
it surely is a pain to play. but still, we played it glorious and i have to admit all that PAINFUL work really paid out. and first times i played it.. it was televized!
:eek:

I copied this and replied to it here (http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?p=9276#post9276) to keep your, yes YOUR beautiful Bass separate from the Nielsen topic..

I think your Bass deserves it's own geography. I recall the Bass being so sweet sounding that I had trouble putting it down sometimes. John Patitucci came over my house one day and tried the Bass out. While playing he first said "this is one of the best Italian Bass I have ever played".. a few notes later.. "this IS the best Italian Bass I have ever played".. then a few notes more and he says "this is THE BEST Bass I have ever played"..

Just one of the many stories and memories I have with this Bass, as a 4-string.. ha ha..

[Mikko Moilanen]

Oh well it's a piece of junk then.

Oh with this bass...
Man, if you only knew.

[Ken Smith]

Ok Mikko, I mailed you copies of the 2 appraisals from Fantoni/1974 and Kolstein/1975. Also, some pictures of the Bass with the famous Al MacKibbon holding it next to his Bass they call a Stainer. We worked in the same pit for a week in the late '70s (him/Sammy Davis Jr., me/Linda Hopkins) so one night we took a few shots. There is also a copy of the old LaBella string package from that era as well. I posed for the cover with that/this/your/my/our Bass as well.;)

I spoke today with Paul Biase who sold the Bass after I retired (the first time) and he assured me that he sold the Bass as I had played it with only the Neck moved out a bit and a new Bridge cut. Any other modifications including the label reading; 'Giacomo Rivolta, fece Milano 1822' (etc.. had lots of goodies on the label. Rivolta was 'the' man in the early 19th century) which is now missing, happened in Europe after it was shipped over.

I played that Bass professionally for 15 years. I was my one and only... Now I have a new family of basses. Maybe if they meet one day they will get along. You never know how it is when the new 'one' meets your 'eX'!:eek:

[Anselm Hauke]

the label ...which is now missing, happened in Europe after it was shipped over.

how could this happen? why should someone remove the label of an old italian?
who? (well, ok, if i think of some dealers here who afaik deal with biase, i won´t be surprised...:cool:)

[Ken Smith]

how could this happen? why should someone remove the label of an old italian?
who? (well, ok, if i think of some dealers here who afaik deal with biase, i won´t be surprised...:cool:)

The Bass was sold to a player directly by Biasie as far as I can tell. Then, some 13-14 years later that person puts it up for sale unless there was another sale in between. The Bass was Labeled 'Giacomo Rivolta', a famous early 19th century Milanese maker who was responsible for reviving the School of Stradivari and is was so stated on the Label as well. Rivolta was also a Silver and Gold medal winner as well in his time which was also stated on the Label. Although the Bass may have been older than Rivolta, there's still no excuse for removing the Label which was also covered with clear tape. To be removed, you would have to lift it off WITH the Tape over it. Removing the tape from the label to 'steal' it would just tear and ruin the label. The only reason I see that it might have been removed was to put a different label in it and try and jack up the price. That Bass regardless of the label with todays prices in my opinion sold for the correct amount even if it still had the old label and sold as a Rivolta! This Bass I think sold for a much much lower price to Mikko (we will not disclose the price, right Mikko?) that it 'would be' had the label that was 'put' in the Bass was correct that is in there now. I will let Mikko disclose the Label if he wishes as it is his baby now, not mine..:(.. The Label was on the Back Crossbar. The Back has ZERO cracks and today, looks as it did 35 years ago when 'I' bought the Bass is severe distress from a friend of the owner in NY. There was no structural reason I can see to remove the Label. The center Crossbar was original and on the narrow side as well, just wider than the length of the Label. The center bar was beveled at the ends and did not reach the Rib linings which are old and crude looking. This bass looked older on the inside than it did on the outside.

With some of the best English Basses topping 150k today, great Italians like this are worth even more. I was recently shown a beautiful Giuseppe Ceruti (son of G.B.) and was told it was valued at $250k. I listened to it and played it some as well. I think this Bass sounds better and looks much older as well. The tone as I remember was to die for. This is why I have been searching and buying so many Basses to get back to where I was then. Only the Storioni that I recently bought is able to truly replace this Bass. Biase has a G.B. Ceruti in restoration that he started years ago before my Mystery Bass which he will get back to after my Bass is done. About 4 years ago I asked how much it would go for and he said then 'about $200k'. I think that might be higher now, easily. About 15 years or so ago I saw a bass for sale by some famous Italian maker like maybe Grancino and the price was $40k. I thought to myself 'never will he get that for a Bass'! Last year a Cremona Bass sold for more than 10x that amount. Two Brescian Basses sold as well in that same year just after the Maggini/d'Salo expo in Brescia for over $500k each. About 4 years ago while I was searching for Basses or 'the Bass' actually a guy in my section tells me that there is a d'Salo available for sale for $600k "if I had the scratch" as he put it referring to my price range. In USA we say 'Scratch' in slang for 'money' for you foreigners. It's an old colloquial saying here.

The former owner of Mikko's Bass before me was Jorge Gonzalez, a Jazz player in B.A. Argentina. I was responsible for bringing that Bass back to life by buying it and getting it restored. Peter Eibert in NY did a massive restoration on the Bass for me in 1973/74. In 1975 Paul Biase removed the Top and trimmed some excess wood from the Eibert job and greatly improved the sound. He was able to tell that the Bass was 'choking' a bit on its own wood and knew just how to un-choke it by the example of his work. Between 1973 and 1975, I spent about $3,000 on the 2 Restorations of this Bass. That was almost the price to buy an Italian Bass in those days. The Bass never went back to a Shop again in the 20 years I had owned it. It had 4 other repairs/modifications which I did myself. Lifting the Bass off a chair I snagged a Violin corner and ripped it clean off. I glued this Back with fresh hide glue from my pot (I was doing repairs then in my apartment on Basses I bought and sold) and it stayed that way till the day I sold it over a decade later. A small crack developed or re-opened on the upper Bout Rib on I think the bass side which I also glued 'once' without patching and it was fine forever. When the Bass came back from Eibert's restoration with a shorter Neck to help shorten the String length I had trouble reaching the 'D' and 'Eb' so I cut the Neck heel a little lower and re-varnished it. The Bridge which I still have today was shimmed on the Legs by me after re-crowing the top after changing the spacing to about 15/16s" (just under 24mm) which I played that Bass at since it was restored. I also inlaid a Barcus Berry Pickup in the Bridge because nothing else worked on that Bass as the signal was just too much fundamental. It amp'ed and recorded great with that set-up. These are the few jobs/repairs I performed on that Bass myself. It looks as if with the 5-string conversion that it has a new Neck. The bridge was changed at least twice now. The Violin Corner might have been re-attached again if the Top was removed since and the small Rib split that I glued may have been since patched with linen or wood.

I showed these pics of Mikko's last night to my wife and she then pulled out some Baby pictures of our first born. There was the Bass in the corner of my NYC apartment just behind the recliner chair my infant son Jonathan was sitting in. Jonathan is now a senior in Collage as a bass performance major and a busy Philly freelancer already. He plays mainly Electric Bass (Smith of course!;)) but also has my old and first Shen I got in 1997 which he uses on occasion. The Shen was the first Bass I bought after selling this Italian several years earlier.

Mikko asked me (remember?) if I was sure this was my old Bass. I say it now publicly, "YES, without a shadow of a doubt, it's the EXACT same Bass"!

[Mikko Moilanen]

.. Inside the bass.. I have to get a better one but you can figure something out here..

-Mikko

[Ken Smith]

.. Inside the bass.. I have to get a better one but you can figure something out here..

-Mikko

The Rivolta label was on the center cross bar. That label was added after I sold the Bass.

I do not have a problem with Basses being attributed to famous makers at all. The problem is that after a Bass is named a Busan and then a Gofriller or then a Maggini, it should not get a new 'faked' or 'stolen' Label each time someone wants to sell it as something else. This in my mind is 100% criminal!

Even if the Bass is what it is claimed to be, it is just that. A Label from wherever is not honest business practice unless there is 100% evidence that the exact Label WAS the real Label from that Bass and is now just being replaced.

I owned this Bass for 20 years and know it well. It's a shame that the beautiful Rivolta label was removed, real or not. Even if it was Rivolta and was THAT Bass, the price would be about as high. If it was a real Rogeri, pupil of Amati, the price would have been upwards of Half a Million Dollars.

Mikko, you have a beautiful and fantastic Bass. I have had that Bass longer than probably anyone alive today. Play it well and make some great Music. We are doing the Neilsen this week and it is coming along fairly well at rehearsals. Thanks for the tips you gave me. They have been very helpful.

[Mikko Moilanen]

My co-principal asked me "Is this bass really SO ITALIAN that it has grown to escape our section sound?". And then I noticed it. I have been playing this bass in section pianissimos very high on the fingerboard. Still it gets its sound through. A bit of shamed I have tried to really play it "ghostlike". Still it produces a huge projective sound. I pulled my bow almost to neck and suddenly it was just plain gold nad fitted in.. So there you have it. The real operational bow factor, from the bridge to far! And this is the time i can honestly say "I can manage, a bit.." with Kens old flame. It is just awesome! I wonder times Ken had it.. Nearly 20 odd years.. WAU!

-M

[Ken Smith]

My co-principal asked me "Is this bass really SO ITALIAN that it has grown to escape our section sound?". And then I noticed it. I have been playing this bass in section pianissimos very high on the fingerboard. Still it gets its sound through. A bit of shamed I have tried to really play it "ghostlike". Still it produces a huge projective sound. I pulled my bow almost to neck and suddenly it was just plain gold nad fitted in.. So there you have it. The real operational bow factor, from the bridge to far! And this is the time i can honestly say "I can manage, a bit.." with Kens old flame. It is just awesome! I wonder times Ken had it.. Nearly 20 odd years.. WAU!

-M

Funny Story but true..
About umpteen years ago.. (Umpteen means a lot!.. maybe.. late 1970s early 1980s?), I was on a recording session. The 1st Bass was Homer Mensch with his Gagliano. Then was John Beal with his Bergonzi and me with my/your/our Bass then labeled Rivolta (maybe Rivolta cut the shoulders when it was 100 years old already). The end of the piece had several bars rest. Then the last 4 bars the Cellos come in with a tied C----. The Basses come in a bar later for 3 bars with the C as well... to the end. Period. But, I touched the string at 4 bars when the cellos came in, stopped and then played the C from 3-bars and out. I looked over at Homer after the Tape stopped and said (leaning over across over John), "Homer, I came in and just touched the string a bar early at the end but it was with the cellos":o.. Homer replies, "Yes, I know, I heard it. You better go inside the Control room and tell the Producer that it was YOU!!":mad:..:eek:

:(I went inside and told them. In the playback it sounded fine but I thought that I would never be hired by them again. A few days later I was on another Job for them in the studio for a TV show soundtrack and asked the Arranger about me getting hired after the last mistake I made. He replied, "We listened to all the Basses to make sure it was OK and yours sounded the best in the Mix..:D:D

Yes, my mis-labeled Bass was picked over the Bergonzi and Homer's famous Gagliano. That Bass was so sweet, I could never put it down. It was the inspiration for me to start the Smith Bass company because it was so good on every note up and down including the E string up to the bridge without a single wolf, that I went out to develop a matching electric Bass. The Ken Smith Bass. Did I come close? Guys?

Mikko, you have a very special Bass. Tell your section mates that the Bass owns you and not the other way around. ;)

[Mikko Moilanen]

WELL,

As Ken puts it down very light, I really have a very special upright.

It looks bad, it sounds bad-ass. She is a lady.

[Mikko Moilanen]

Hi you all poindexters!

After awhile...

The old-lady has opened her knees, the sound is (well, for me) a huge amount better and in orchestra : "This is not the bass you used to play? It is more bassy tune..". At that first moment I knew that this instrument is not to die for.. I enjoy it just to live more!
It is amazing.. And let me tell you, the old Finnish weather puts everything fear-dry on hold. With this bass we have none of that. I will keep you posted if something happens ;)
This bass is amazing and at this date, I am looking to the Ken's sent appraisals for it.. Thanks for those btw :) Seems to be a real lady ..

-M

[Ken Smith]

Hi you all poindexters!

After awhile...

The old-lady has opened her knees, the sound is (well, for me) a huge amount better and in orchestra : "This is not the bass you used to play? It is more bassy tune..". At that first moment I knew that this instrument is not to die for.. I enjoy it just to live more!
It is amazing.. And let me tell you, the old Finnish weather puts everything fear-dry on hold. With this bass we have none of that. I will keep you posted if something happens ;)
This bass is amazing and at this date, I am looking to the Ken's sent appraisals for it.. Thanks for those btw :) Seems to be a real lady ..

-M

Sorry, I can't understand exactly what you are saying? Do you think this is not my old Bass? It is, 100%. Just look at the pictures I sent you. Same exact bass, wood grain and all. Only difference now is that it was converted to a 5 string, the Rivolta label removed by someone and the other label that matches your appraisal put in by someone again, maybe same person re-labeling it.

When you have a bass for 20 years and play it nearly every day, you tend to remember it. With my old pictures I showed you, there is no doubt in my mind what it is. I never knew the actual confirmed maker of this Bass regardless of the label but I do not disagree with your current appraisal attribution.

This Bass served me well and I am sure will do the same for you. Enjoy it Mikko.:)

[Mikko Moilanen]

Just making it know that the bass is in a good shape, despite the dry cold winter here. And soundwise it has made some real progress.
Yeah, I have the pics you sent me Ken, and it is the same bass! Nothing speculative. Al McKibbon seems to be relaxing on those. :D Nice pics!

[Ken Smith]

Just making it know that the bass is in a good shape, despite the dry cold winter here. And soundwise it has made some real progress.
Yeah, I have the pics you sent me Ken, and it is the same bass! Nothing speculative. Al McKibbon seems to be relaxing on those. :D Nice pics!

Great. I am glad to see that the Bass is healthy and happy as well. Like I may have mentioned before, I never had it set up for Orchestra playing. I had very tight bridge spacing (23.5-24mm) for my playing style back then. The Bass served me well for the 15 years I used it professionally. It is one of the great basses no doubt.

Once when doing a Jingle (commercial recording) with a 60 piece orchestra and 3 basses in total, I was told after the mixing session that between the Gagliano, Bergonzi and my bass, I had the best sound of the 3. The other two players were the first and second call studio players on the commercial Classical recordings in NYC then. The first guy formerly worked in the NY Phil. He is quite famous as a player and a teacher as well.