Bowing guidelines (reprise)

[stan haskins]

HI Kurt, Ken, and anyone else who wants to chime in-

I asked this question of Patrick Neher over on the other side of the tracks. I'm really curious to get more input. (just to clarify - by "bowings" I really mean the bow direction, and timing the change of directions)

My question is this: where does one go to find a systematic method for bowing orchestral pieces?

I know that there are always several ways to bow any passage, and as a German player (bow, not nationalityhttp://www.talkbass.com/forum/images/smilies/colors/wink.gif) I've noticed my French section mates seem to prefer different bowings, and some players seem to prefer "splitting" long legato phrases into more bow changes. Often, I've found I'm chasing the bows of the player on the next stand (we don't share stands, luckily), and suspect that he's trying to do the same. Result: four bassists, four different bowingshttp://www.talkbass.com/forum/images/smilies/no.gif

I'm asking this question as someone who came to classical playing a little later in life - I've only been able to play with student and amateur sections thus far, so I've never had the experience of being able to play with a "unified" section that "breathes" together.

Basically, I'd like to find some guidelines or a system that can help me to practice bowings that make musical sense, and to have the flexibility to play with the more experienced or professional sections when the time arises.

Along the same lines, how do professional sections handle their bowings? Is the Principal expected to mark up everyone's part, is it done during sectionals, or is everyone expected to keep their eyes and ears open to follow the leader?

Thanks!

[Nick Hart]

Generally it is the principal's responsibility to make sure all the parts have the correct bowing. In student orchestra's the principal tends to do everything him/herself.

In professional orchestra's, if bowings are changed, the principal does it in his/her part and then the orchestra librarian copies them over. Many times professional orchestras have standardized bowings, as well as many schools. A great example of this is the opening passage in the bass part of Don Juan. When I was in NY, the NY Phil started it up bow, and so did we at Juilliard. But my friends over at MSM started it down bow.

A lot of times as the principal, I try to learn my part completely with several different bowing variations and then set up a meeting with the conductor and other principals. Here we will discuss bowings, play along with the conductor at the piano (or sometimes the conductor just listens), to create uniform bowings in tutti sections and to also make sure it is what the conductor is looking for.

Some basic rules though are that pickups are almost always started with an up bow unless specified by the conductor. Also, depending on the piece and composer dotted 8th, 16th note patterns are either hooked or played with a "shoeshine" stroke. The shoeshine stroke is pretty standard in the famous passage in the 4th movement of Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique, while hooking is usually a standard in Mozart symphonies.

This is only just a beginning of an introduction as far as bowings go. I can, as well as many other players can go on for hours about this. The only way to pick all this stuff up is experience and playing pieces several times with several different ensembles.

[stan haskins]

The shoeshine stroke is pretty standard in the famous passage in the 4th movement of Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique, while hooking is usually a standard in Mozart symphonies

Good reply, thanks Nick.

What's a shoeshine stroke?

When you said "pickups generally start with up bows" I agree with you. What about long slurred phrases that start halfway through a bar? (I'm thinking specifically of the quarter note theme that happens over and over again in Brahms' Tragic Overture - the phrases start on beat 4 and slur through an entire measure, ending after beat one in the next measure. To me, that screams "upbow")

[Ken Smith]

Good reply, thanks Nick.

What's a shoeshine stroke?

When you said "pickups generally start with up bows" I agree with you. What about long slurred phrases that start halfway through a bar? (I'm thinking specifically of the quarter note theme that happens over and over again in Brahms' Tragic Overture - the phrases start on beat 4 and slur through an entire measure, ending after beat one in the next measure. To me, that screams "upbow")

Sometimes you have to look ahead and see where you need that down Bow and work backwards. Much of the music I get has old bowings in them or erased but visible. Usually they help but sometimes they are the result of someones ability and not always the best bowing.

Three note pick-ups to a Dn bow line, start with an up bow. Odd notes, = up bow start and even is usually Dn bow. Some times it doesn't make sense to try what is written but do so anyway and then try your idea awhile and see what is best. I played the Nut Cracker at least 4-5 times now and only last year did I change one of the bowings I was doing because a player in the NYC Ballet told me to. Now, it seems easier as well as the other night, my stand partner kept jumping to down bows for this repeated rhythm. I told him (as the Ballet player told me), just do continous bowings and it will come out correct in the end. Up dn up - dn up dn - up dn up- dn up dn....

Patience helps as does listening to those who have more experience in professional orchestras.

[Nick Hart]

Good reply, thanks Nick.

What's a shoeshine stroke?

When you said "pickups generally start with up bows" I agree with you. What about long slurred phrases that start halfway through a bar? (I'm thinking specifically of the quarter note theme that happens over and over again in Brahms' Tragic Overture - the phrases start on beat 4 and slur through an entire measure, ending after beat one in the next measure. To me, that screams "upbow")

Hey Stan,

A shoeshine stroke is when the 16th notes, of a dotted 8th, 16th note figure, are played down bow and the 8ths are played up bow. It puts the emphasis on the 16th note instead of the dotted 8th.

I haven't played Brahms' Tragic Overture but anytime you have slurs like that it is all about context and what is going on in the rest of the orchestra. A lot of bowings can be derived by watching some of the other players, also by knowing your score. If the winds have the melody and the melody is mp, then I would probably argue that if possible don't break slurs if you don't have the melody.

A good slur example is in Mozart's Overture to Le Nozze di Figaro. On the ascending quarter note figure, the first 5 quarter notes are usually played up bow and the last 2 played down bow to show the movement of the line and phrase. Also check out the scores of the pieces. Composers, such as Mahler, tend to put in their own slurs. Although many will argue that those are phrase markings and not necessarily bowings, I think many people will be very surprised the amazing sound achieved when following his bowings. Right now Paavo Jarvi out here in Cincinnati is making a bunch of great sounds with that philosophy.

As you can see this topic can go on forever it is almost all a matter of taste and ****ysis. My main thing of advice is know what the rest of the orchestra is doing. It is very hard to understand your part correctly if you don't understand everybody else's part as well.

[Kjetil Laukholm]

A shoeshine stroke is when the 16th notes, of a dotted 8th, 16th note figure, are played down bow and the 8ths are played up bow. It puts the emphasis on the 16th note instead of the dotted 8th.


In general the shoeshine is used to achieve two equally short and equally loud notes. It is easier to execute down-up than up-down.

Standard shoeshine passages are Symphonie Fantastique and Schubert Great C major last movement

[Thomas Erickson]

Sometimes you have to look ahead and see where you need that down Bow and work backwards. Much of the music I get has old bowings in them or erased but visible. Usually they help but sometimes they are the result of someones ability and not always the best bowing.

Three note pick-ups to a Dn bow line, start with an up bow. Odd notes, = up bow start and even is usually Dn bow. Some times it doesn't make sense to try what is written but do so anyway and then try your idea awhile and see what is best. I played the Nut Cracker at least 4-5 times now and only last year did I change one of the bowings I was doing because a player in the NYC Ballet told me to. Now, it seems easier as well as the other night, my stand partner kept jumping to down bows for this repeated rhythm. I told him (as the Ballet player told me), just do continous bowings and it will come out correct in the end. Up dn up - dn up dn - up dn up- dn up dn....

Patience helps as does listening to those who have more experience in professional orchestras.

+1
I think too often bowings are over-thought, with players getting into "ruts" of unnecessary bowings rather than simply having the patience to play things straight through; the result, in a section, being an overall loss of sound/tone and strange inflections finding their way into music where they don't belong.

IMO there's nothing wrong with playing as much stuff straight-through as possible; "tricky" bowing rarely makes something more musical and easily becomes an annoying habit.