"Cornerless Italian & Spanish Basses"

[Ken Smith]

I know we have a similar Thread (http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?p=540#post540) in 'General Bass Talk' but I thought I would kick off another Thread about this subject as this Guitar/Pear model that we occasionally see is usually of the Italian School.

Recently, a Bass player in 'The NYC Ballet' acquired David Walters' cornerless Bass attr. to Testore. Some have referred to it as a Spanish Bass as they too are known for making this style but did they really make them? Every old cornerless Bass I have seen looks Italian to me regardless of what they call it. Does anyone really know what the origin is of the Cornerless Bass?

The Bass I just acquired has a Brescian type Scroll with a Cornerless shape. The Scroll is on the short side with plugs visible from its 3-string days. The non-ebony Tailpiece also has 3 plugs from when it was a 3-stringer but has since had 4 new holes drilled and an upper lip added at the top of the TP.

This Bass though is loooong.. 44 1/4" string length now but about 44 1/2" if we make a new Bridge with the current Neck and neck-set. For this, we have a vague plan as far as shortening the string length and keeping it playable as well as its thick organ-like sound.

So, please post your Italian Cornerless Bass stories here and post any pics of any Bass you can find anywhere that is both 'Cornerless and Italian' in origin for discussion purposes. I will get my page up in a day or so from this posting and then link it from here.

NOTE: As of this edit on 4/29/07 I just changed the title to include Spanish Basses as many 'attributed' Italian Cornerless Basses may be actually Spanish. Although this style is believed to have originated in Italy, it is the main style that was adapted in Spain as well.

[Brian Glassman]

Here's a new made Italian Pear shaped bass by Sergio Scaramelli of Cremona:

http://www.contrabbassi.it/contrabbasso_pera_cassa.htm

BG

[Ken Smith]

Here's a new made Italian Pear shaped bass by Sergio Scaramelli of Cremona:

http://www.contrabbassi.it/contrabbasso_pera_cassa.htm

BG

Very similar to my Bass in basic shape and form but mine I believe is quite a bit bigger.

[Ken Smith]

Ok Guys, heres my Storioni Bass (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/storioni/index.html).

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/images/tn_Storioni.jpg

Two older appraisals have it as a Gasparo d'Salo and I do see the Brescian connection in the Scroll but not in the age. The FFs have me puzzled and the Varnish looks fantastic. Still, I can't be 100% certain it's actually Storioni or even another more famous maker. The sound is to die for and the beauty, well that depends on what you like. Stunning is my description. What's yours?

[davidseidel]

Wow that is an impressive looking instrument. Does the guitar shape have any advantages or disadvantages for practical playing comfort? I never have tried one myself. Funny how a long stop doesn't always feel noticeable. Will you take it on a gig in present condition?

[Ron Lacey]

I'd go with impressive, too. With a 44 1/4" scale length it must be huge!! How do you carry that beauty with no corners to grab?

[Ken Smith]

Wow that is an impressive looking instrument. Does the guitar shape have any advantages or disadvantages for practical playing comfort? I never have tried one myself. Funny how a long stop doesn't always feel noticeable. Will you take it on a gig in present condition?

It is so easy to play, My Gilkes is 41" string length and is harder to play with its higher shoulders and violin corners. The middle bout on the Storioni is 1 1/8" wider but it's easier to bow without hitting anything.

I took the Bass to an Orchestra rehearsal tonight. We had to add an extra 'p' from pp to ppp because this Bass added to much bottom to the orchestra and I was plucking in 5th position in the pizz sections to play softer. With my other Orchestra I have rehearsal tomorrow (thurs eve.) and Saturday morning with a Sat. eve. concert. Yes, I am playing the Bass now as-is but with a basic set-up that took me about 4 hours last night. I made a new Nut after I took off the extension, re-cut the Bridge top and changed the strings. The E-string is still in the 'A' peg like it was with the Extension but it's a Stark non-ext Flexocor. The other strings are reg Flex, normal gauge, not Starks.

Ron Lacey; I'd go with impressive, too. With a 44 1/4" scale length it must be huge!! How do you carry that beauty with no corners to grab?It is not easy to lift or carry. Something I will have to get used to. The sound is well worth any simple troubles like that. Tonight I stood up for over 2 hours straight, no break. Tomorrow I have a 3 hour rehearsal with a break. I will be sitting as there is a stool there for me.

With this Bass I can feel the sound better then I can hear it. I have to lean into the neck to hear my intonation. The Bassist on 3rd stand who knows this Bass and first told me about it a few years ago mentioned how loud it was tonight. The bottom two strings are earth shaking. It's more like a tidal wave pushing from under the ocean than a 20ft surf with everything out front like my Gilkes is which by the way is a cannon over the Storioni but the Storioni is an earthquake to be felt. By the time you hear it, it's too late!:eek:

[Ron Lacey]

The bottom two strings are earth shaking. It's more like a tidal wave pushing from under the ocean than a 20ft surf with everything out front like my Gilkes is which by the way is a cannon over the Storioni but the Storioni is an earthquake to be felt. By the time you hear it, it's too late!:eek:


Yeah, that's the stuff!! That's what I love about THE BASS!

[Ken McKay]

That is one cool big guitar. ;)

Here is the start of mine that I am building. http://www.upnorthstrings.com/cornerlessbass.html

[Ken Smith]

That is one cool big guitar. ;)

Here is the start of mine that I am building. http://www.upnorthstrings.com/cornerlessbass.html

I played it last night in my main Orchestra sitting on a stool and I must tell you it was sooooo comfortable. No Corners hitting my legs or Bow. The length was not painful. Just a bit out of tune from time to time but I will improve with that as I already have. The day before, I could not play the Vivo solo in the Pulcinella in tune. Last night I almost nailed it. Just a few notes and shifts I need some extra traveling to reach the intonation point. So in just a few days I have gone from 'total fear' of a bass over 42" :eek: to 'not so bad' on a Bass over 44"!:) Now, put that in your Bow and smoke it!:D

On the sitting thing, I must admit that this Bass just melted in my lap like no other has while sitting. I often alternate between sitting and standing mainly due to some discomfort with the Bass on the stool. Last night I was ready to put this Bass and its feel in my personal 'hall of fame' as far as all time most comfortable goes.

Ken, go and make your cornerless Bass. As much as an eyesore they might be to some makes up the difference in comfort for the player. Yes, carrying it out of the case is not as easy (so I grab it under the FB) but once you play it standing or sitting, all those problems go away in your mind.;)

[Charlie Hack]

Beautiful bass, Ken. The varnish is such a beautiful, deep color. Another question from an overly curious student: What is the difference between the two terms 'GUITAR-model' and 'PEAR-model'? One reads of the 'French Pear Model', but I suspect that is in reference to the older Gamba-form basses with sloping shoulders and... well... rather 'healthy' bottoms. But I have also heard of cornerless basses referred to as pear-shaped, and they certainly look like pears. Perhaps it has something to do with the relative sizes of the bouts?

Cheers all,

Charlie

[Ken Smith]

Beautiful bass, Ken. The varnish is such a beautiful, deep color. Another question from an overly curious student: What is the difference between the two terms 'GUITAR-model' and 'PEAR-model'? One reads of the 'French Pear Model', but I suspect that is in reference to the older Gamba-form basses with sloping shoulders and... well... rather 'healthy' bottoms. But I have also heard of cornerless basses referred to as pear-shaped, and they certainly look like pears. Perhaps it has something to do with the relative sizes of the bouts?

Cheers all,

Charlie

Yes, the Varnish is beautiful and of a very high quality as is the wood under it. On the names, like anything else, these are just nick names to describe a shape. Pear or Guitar describes a cornerless Bass just fine. Pear also refers to a sloped top bout as in the French Basses you mentioned. My Loveri (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Loveri/Loveri.htm) is a Pear shaped Bass but it's not Cornerless! However, it was cut down to this shape in 1937 which was around the time we started seeing those French Pear type Basses in Gamba or Violin shape as long as the shoulders are extremely sloped.

By the way, I played my Cornerless Bass (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Storioni/Storioni.htm) tonight in a concert. The sound is hard to describe but something that I have only dreamed about in the past if that helps at all.

[Eric Hochberg]

Here's a link (http://209.15.163.66/start/makers/sheppard%28godfrey%29.htm) to a bass patterned after Storioni.

[Ken Smith]

Here's a link (http://209.15.163.66/start/makers/sheppard%28godfrey%29.htm) to a bass patterned after Storioni.

I wonder if he is using the Bass pictured in the Elgar Book. Last I heard, that Bass is NOT a Storioni. Although my Bass was attributed to Storioni when in the possession of the previous owner, it doesn't mean that it is. Attributions can be misleading if the original is not what it claims to be.

In either case, his copy is very similar to mine in style but the dimensions have been modified to have a shorter and more normal strings length.

[Ken McKay]

Ken,

Could you please look inside there when you get a chance and tell me the bracing on the sides. I am at that point in my cornerless construction and need some help.

[Ken Smith]

Ken,

Could you please look inside there when you get a chance and tell me the bracing on the sides. I am at that point in my cornerless construction and need some help.

There is no internal Bracing that I can see but the Ribs were repaired in the past and Doubled all around in Spruce. It looks to be one continuous bend all around each Rib. I don't know if this is the best way or not.

[Ken McKay]

Ken, sorry to be a pest but does the doubling spruce run the same way as the sides or across?

I am thinking about doing this type of bracing across the sides in 4 places on each side. What do you think?http://www.contrabbassi.it/contrabbassi_my_instruments.htm# go down to part under construction and look at the cross braces on the sides.

[Ken Smith]

Ken, sorry to be a pest but does the doubling spruce run the same way as the sides or across?

I am thinking about doing this type of bracing across the sides in 4 places on each side. What do you think?http://www.contrabbassi.it/contrabbassi_my_instruments.htm# go down to part under construction and look at the cross braces on the sides.

Yes, I see that on Sergio's page but that is not a Guitar shape model. My Loveri Bass with new Ribs from Scalzilli (replaced in 1937 when he cut the Bass) has a center strip in the center Bout from Top to Back. I don't know if that's good or not. My cornerless Bass has the typical inner linings and the Spruce doubling grain runs from top to back in direction 90 degrees (opposite) to the grain of the Ribs.

Here are some photos (http://www.jeffbollbach.com/JB%20II/images.htm) from Jeff Bollbach's web showing Wood/Linen striping which would be better I think than complete doubling as far as controlling 'voids' in the joints.

http://www.jeffbollbach.com/Scans/Compressed%20Scans/11_restore_inside_direct.jpg%5B/ing%5D%5Bimg%5Dhttp://www.jeffbollbach.com/Scans/Compressed%20Scans/9_restore_inside_diag.jpgIf my Ribs need to be re-done internally, this is what I would feel better about seeing in a restoration.

[Matthew Tucker]

Stefano Sciascia told me that his old italian cornerless bass has "TELA DI SACCO" (sack-cloth) lining all around, and no visible wooden reinforcement.

[Ken Smith]

Stefano told me that his old italian cornerless bass has sack-cloth lining all around, and no visible wooden reinforcement.

Sack-cloth lining all around? Oh, ok but it would be nice if we could see some pics of Stefano Sciascia's Bass (http://www.stefanosciascia.it/) you refer to. Also, if the Bass is old and has a lot of rib cracks, stripping like in Jeff's pics would make it easier to repair.

One other thing especially in new Basses is that when the Back moves thru the seasons you want either a seam to pop or the Rib to crack. If the Rib construction is too strong like with 20th century German Basses with lining in and outside the Ribs, Only the Top will crack or in the case of a Flatback, maybe the Back as well.

Just ask any repairman in the northeast how many Juzekish Basses (mainly those Germanic style shop Basses with outer linings on them) are flooding the benches this winter with cracks. Arnold, Jeff and a NJ repairman have told me how busy they are with mainly these 'stronger constructed' Basses just 'cracking up' and not from my jokes!:D

One of my newer Basses (20th century) was repaired this past summer and in the beginning of this winter each lower seam popped from the bottom Block up about a foot or less on each side a few weeks apart from each other.:eek: After I re-glued them nice and tight with hide glue, the Top split up a few inches from the outer lower flank from the edge thru the purfling in line with the outer edge of the F-hole but only about 6" long.:confused: I glued that right away to stop it from spreading. A week later the lower seam on the same side popped again and this time some splinters of the Back were still on the Ribs so I know it wasn't my Glue job.:confused::( The wood just needed to move. Then I decided to leave it alone until after the winter and fix it in the spring after the Bass settles from the dry weather.:mad:

So, don't build the Ribs so strong that the Top or Back becomes the first victim.:(

[Ken McKay]

Ken and Matthew thanks. I am leaning towards no cross bracing on the ribs whatsoever, but I must consult the three guru's of bass repair.

Ken you make a good argument for very light or no bracing. How about just 4 "crackstopper" braces from front to back positioned about equally on each side?

[Ken Smith]

Ken and Matthew thanks. I am leaning towards no cross bracing on the ribs whatsoever, but I must consult the three guru's of bass repair.

Ken you make a good argument for very light or no bracing. How about just 4 "crackstopper" braces from front to back positioned about equally on each side?

I yield my time on this Rib question to the two gentleman from NY, Arnold and Jeff whom I would ask if I needed such advice. Ofcourse, It costs me a few lunches here and there but hey, ones gotta eat, right?;)

[Ken McKay]

Okay I will get a few photos together and ask the question, should I start a new thread or put it here or in the other cornerless thread?

Plus I don't mean to exclude anyone else, all responses are helpful.

[Ken Smith]

Okay I will get a few photos together and ask the question, should I start a new thread or put it here or in the other cornerless thread?

Plus I don't mean to exclude anyone else, all responses are helpful.

Well, this thread is Cornerless Italian Basses. If the shoe fits... If not, it should go in the other 'general' cornerless thread.

[Ken McKay]

My grandmother was Italian, does that count?:D

[Matthew Tucker]

Ken it appears your grandfather was Scottish, so maybe it belongs in the School of Scottish Cornerless Double Bass Bagpipes thread ...

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Ken,

Could you please look inside there when you get a chance and tell me the bracing on the sides. I am at that point in my cornerless construction and need some help.
Hi Ken,

I think you do nothing good by putting braces in the ribs of your cornerless bass. The 90 degree attachment will likely lead to rib cracks, just like at the corners of old basses where the rib shrinks and the block stays put. If you are concerned about a small rib crack developing into a "zipper" and traveling around the whole body, you can run some linen strips across the ribs about every 8-10" or so. Put them in with weak hide glue and run them up onto the linings, otherwise you'll cause a new stress point where the linen ends. My experience is that these strips remain a tiny bit flexible, and while they stop small cracks from spreading, they don't cause new ones. I have been using this technique in all my handmade basses. Old Martin guitars have similar strips I've been told.

[Ken Smith]

Hi Ken,

I think you do nothing good by putting braces in the ribs of your cornerless bass. The 90 degree attachment will likely lead to rib cracks, just like at the corners of old basses where the rib shrinks and the block stays put. If you are concerned about a small rib crack developing into a "zipper" and traveling around the whole body, you can run some linen strips across the ribs about every 8-10" or so. Put them in with weak hide glue and run them up onto the linings, otherwise you'll cause a new stress point where the linen ends. My experience is that these strips remain a tiny bit flexible, and while they stop small cracks from spreading, they don't cause new ones. I have been using this technique in all my handmade basses. Old Martin guitars have similar strips I've been told.

So in other words Doctor Schnitzer, 'don't throw out your old sheets'!:D:D

Gee, I wonder if I can sell them on Ebay under 'Luthier Supplies'..:confused:

[Brian Glassman]

Check out this Italian copy:

http://netinstruments.com/picture/?p=31377.jpg

BG

[Ken McKay]

Thanks Aarnold.

That bass Brian linked to looks like a german bass with no corners. the arching looks different than any Italian I have seen. The proportions also look like a typical german gamba without corners.

[Matthew Tucker]

Can you explain to me what looks German about it?

[Ken Smith]

Thanks Aarnold.

That bass Brian linked to looks like a german bass with no corners. the arching looks different than any Italian I have seen. The proportions also look like a typical german gamba without corners.

The Gears look a bit French to me but the Bass, smells Italian but could be Czech or Hungarian as well if recently made.

Have any of you seen any Spanish Guitar shaped Basses before? I have been told that although this style originated in Italy, the Spanish makers made many Guitar Shaped Basses as well (probably in the 18th and 19th century). One dealer I know thinks that many of the Italian attributed Cornerless Basses are probably Spanish. A few years ago he said my Bass was Spanish way before I owned it and commented it was a great sounding Bass and had a beautiful Varnish as well. Coming from him, I take that as a thumbs up on my most recent purchase which by the way, was my biggest to date.

[David Powell]

Can you explain to me what looks German about it?+1,
I am going to guess that it has something to do with the immediate but very gradual slope of the arch on the top from the edge, but I'm just guessing. Come on, give us the goods you guys. How can you tell?

[Matthew Tucker]

The only things that I can see are

1. the bass is in germany
2. the colour looks a bit german

I can't smell it, myself.

[Ken McKay]

+1,
I am going to guess that it has something to do with the immediate but very gradual slope of the arch on the top from the edge, but I'm just guessing. Come on, give us the goods you guys. How can you tell?

Yes, this is why I think it is german and not italian design except cornerless of course. There appears to be no recurve in most areas and also what Matthew said about the color. Plus the general shape and proportions.
I am no expert though on identifying bass though.

[Ken Smith]

There are many many English, Italian and French Basses for sale currently in German shops from all vintages. Being in Germany during the time of sale has nothing to do with the origin.

The only two countries I know of that have ever produced Guitar shaped basses was either Italy or Spain with Italy being the originator but parts of Italy were under Spanish rule at one time. Many old Spanish makers are of Italian dissent as well and many or then Violin makers there copied mainly Strad, Guadagnini, Guadagaini, Guadagnini and some Gagliano. I looked thru a Spanish Makers book yesterday at Biase's and he pointed out all these great Spanish makers and how Italian looking the fiddles were.

The Germans have copied many many Italian instruments and a few English as well. Most copies are Italian BUT with a Guitar shaped Bass bringing maybe less than the value of a Violin model Bass or even a Gamba, why on earth would the Germans make an Italian Guitar shaped copy?

It does not make sense to me and the re-curve theory or arching's, please.. there are so many styles of making that the first school we blame for oddities or quick work is usually the Italians. Very few Italian Basses have fine work matched to that of their famous Violins. Now sound, thats another story all together.

[Ken McKay]

That may be true but I find it hard to believe that there is not a system for developing "italian arching" regardless of the size of the instrument. I am at a disadvantage as I have seen very few italian basses in person let alone up close enough to measure the arching. I think there were systems and secret information that were used in design of stringed instruments though that is not easy to understand in this day and age. Why would there be such a distinction between classican Italian violins and not be carried over to basses? And what explains why Italians sound good then if it is not design proportions?

[Matthew Tucker]

There are many many English, Italian and French Basses for sale currently in German shops from all vintages. Being in Germany during the time of sale has nothing to do with the origin.

Ken I guess you haven't yet figured that MOST of the time, my tongue is firmly stuck in my cheek!

What I meant was, seriously, with no other information than some wideshots taken at wierd angles, of a copy of a bass in a shop in germany, any guess as to that basses origin must surely be just that ... a guess! Especially, since its a copy. We don't even really know how old it is. The tuners and endpin give away a little about its age, but we have virtually no evidence as to its provenance other than what the ad says. Why stop at Spain or italy or Germany? Why not Canadian or British or Swedish? Why couldn't someone in Sweden make a copy of a cornerless Italian bass and sell it in Germany to an American?

Anyway ... the top looks like ply to me :D

[David Powell]

That may be true but I find it hard to believe that there is not a system for developing "italian arching" regardless of the size of the instrument. I am at a disadvantage as I have seen very few italian basses in person let alone up close enough to measure the arching. I think there were systems and secret information that were used in design of stringed instruments though that is not easy to understand in this day and age. Why would there be such a distinction between classican Italian violins and not be carried over to basses? And what explains why Italians sound good then if it is not design proportions?Thought provoking indeed. I've seen a couple of different theories on how the arch was developed, but neither source offered much in "proof" and admitted that. There were various mechanical methods using rolling drawing aids. My own theory is that the arch needs to be a sine wave section. Intuitively it seems like a deep recurve would aid in resonance.

Thanks for your explanation on the German personality of the arching.

[Ken McKay]

Probably a compass was used to develop the curves and recurves of these old basses and de gambas. Some old de gamba instruments have no recurve at all while the violin shaped instruments do. And there is a difference in tone but some de gambas were converted to cellos and basses.

I am really just collecting info on plate arching but will keep you posted. there seems to be a method that is emerging in my mind that was common to classical Italian makers. I am no expert and don't have a bunch of old italian basses to study, so take that for what it for what it is worth. I will write more as I get info.

[Matthew Tucker]

Ken M here are a few more shots from Elgars book since you don't have it any more. The "Lemur" bass and a nice cornerless attributed to Giovanni Dodi, Modena 1853.

Its interesting to see the inside; the linings are kerfed like a geetar. And check the size of the neck block!

Hey I just noticed that the "Dodi" looks a bit like the "Testore" in that little pic on your site. Could it be the same bass taken from a different angle??? That lower bout shape looks almost identical. The neck block area looks a bit different - it could just be the camera angle ... or p'raps its been cut down ... do you have a better colour picture??

[Ken McKay]

Thanks Matthew.

I knew I should have used kerfed linings, it would have been easier, I almost did. That upper block is massive.

The bass attributed to Testore on my site looks a little different than that Dodi. Have a look side by side. http://www.upnorthstrings.com/cornerlessbasspage4.html

I don't have a bigger photo of the Testore, wish I did.

I like that Dodi, especially the bold arching.

[Ken Smith]

Ken M here are a few more shots from Elgars book since you don't have it any more. The "Lemur" bass and a nice cornerless attributed to Giovanni Dodi, Modena 1853.

Its interesting to see the inside; the linings are kerfed like a geetar. And check the size of the neck block!

Hey I just noticed that the "Dodi" looks a bit like the "Testore" in that little pic on your site. Could it be the same bass taken from a different angle??? That lower bout shape looks almost identical. The neck block area looks a bit different - it could just be the camera angle ... or p'raps its been cut down ... do you have a better colour picture??

At this time I doubt that the Cornerless Basses we have looked at were made by either Testore, Ruggeri or even Storioni. The work of these Basses look nothing like their 'known' work so attributing it to them may be a bit careless or a dream at best.

The Elgar Storioni in the Milan Museum I was told is NOT a Storioni. This has caused many people to use this name for almost anything Italian with the Guitar shape.

Also in the Elgar book are three 19th century makers known for Guitar shaped Basses. These are Dodi, Boccaccini, and Baldentoni. None of them from Cremona or Milan. Many Spanish Basses are of Guitar shape as well but again, mainly from the 19th century.

I will be taking my Bass down to the Kimmel Center to be photographed and looked over by Duane Rosengard sometime next month. I would just as likely assume that Boccaccini made my Bass if not a great Spaniard maker sometime in the early 19th century as I would believe the attribution to Storioni by the previous owner. I listed it like that mainly in respect for the widow of Riccardi as a memorial type thing as that is what the Bass was mainly called. In other circles it is known as 'The Riccardi Bass' with no other attribution.

I have played only two other Basses I can recall with the type of sound that my Bass has. One is an attributed Seraphin and the other attributed to Maggini, both large Violin cornered Basses. What ever my Bass is, the maker is one of great skill in both workmanship and tone as far as this Bass goes. Having played all three Basses mentioned above, I prefer both the playability and tone of my Bass. If it had been of Violin shape, It would have been priced up there with the other two Basses and out of my reach. Lucky me!..lol

[Matthew Tucker]

Where was the photo of the "testore" from?

[Ken Smith]

Where was the photo of the "testore" from?

From the String Emporium website, upper right corner. I recall him referring to that as his 'Moccha' (ala chocolate) name. I don't recall it ever being referred to as a Testore Bass. Testore is another name attached to old Italian Basses that are crude and usual or for lack of another name to call it by.

[Ken McKay]

Steven Koscica wrote me back when I email him about it saying:

"Sorry, but I don't have any measurements on that bass. Sold it about 7-8 years ago. It was my own personal orchestra bass. It was attributed to Testore, but it had a Tarantino head I know. It was a great bass!

[Matthew Tucker]

Ken on the latest pic of your top with the ffs taped on, it looks like you have the left hand one upside-down. The da Salo ffs are not symmetrical, the inside sweep of the S shape is much more bulbous on the lower curve. To me it looks like you have the more runcible curve at the top of the ff, making the thing look top-heavy and out of balance with the generous lower bout.

[Ken McKay]

Ken on the latest pic of your top with the ffs taped on, it looks like you have the left hand one upside-down. The da Salo ffs are not symmetrical, the inside sweep of the S shape is much more bulbous on the lower curve. To me it looks like you have the more runcible curve at the top of the ff, making the thing look top-heavy and out of balance with the generous lower bout.


Good eye, they weren't taped on very well. I fixed it now. http://www.upnorthstrings.com/cornerlessbasspage6

[Ken Smith]

Good eye, they weren't taped on very well. I fixed it now. http://www.upnorthstrings.com/cornerlessbasspage6

This one (http://www.mdw.ac.at/I105/orpheon/Seiten/Instruments/vdg/vdgt_dasalo.htm) looks similar to my Bass as it was once attributed to d'Salo erroneously of course. The shape is very similar as well as the varnish color but just wrong century.

http://www.mdw.ac.at/I105/orpheon/Fotos/Fotos-Instr/vdgt_dasalo-fr2.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Storioni/images/body_fr.jpg

The other one questioned to me looks more Testoreish (http://www.mdw.ac.at/I105/orpheon/Seiten/Instruments/vdg/vdgb_dasalo.htm). The Milanese were know for making instrument without Purfling to save time and money. Even the Scrolls were left half made. This lack of Purfling for cheaper instruments was also copied by the Germans and the English from the 18th - 19th century.

http://www.mdw.ac.at/I105/orpheon/Fotos/Fotos-Instr/vdgb_dasalo-fr.jpg

The Scroll work on my Bass being somewhere in between the two but totally an individual idea.

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Storioni/images/scroll_bk.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Storioni/images/scroll_L.jpg

[Ken Smith]

The only two countries I know of that have ever produced Guitar shaped basses was either Italy or Spain with Italy being the originator but parts of Italy were under Spanish rule at one time. Many old Spanish makers are of Italian dissent as well and many or then Violin makers there copied mainly Strad, Guadagnini, and some Gagliano. I looked thru a Spanish Makers book yesterday at Biase's and he pointed out all these great Spanish makers and how Italian looking the fiddles were.

Ok, on this Spanish Violin Book I mentioned, the Author is 'Ramon Pinto Comas'. I was told the other day to buy this book by him as he was also one of the foremost authorities on Spanish Basses as well. This information came from Duane Rosengard. As we were on the Phone discussing this and both surfing the 'Net at the same time we found that he has a Website. I understand he speaks Spanish and French at least but not certain if he speaks any English at all. Duane took pictures of my Cornerless Bass about 2 weeks ago (along with the Gilkes) and asked if he could send some pictures to him on my behalf and of course I said Yes to that. Then I started typing an Email to the Author in Spain letting him know about this Bass with a link to my Webpage and that better pictures would be sent to him asap from Rosengard who just happens to be a friend of his. Duane knows just about everyone worldwide and has a memory that is unbelievable.

Duane thinks this Bass of mine might very well be Spanish as the Scroll fits that Profile being only influenced by Italy but more of a Spanish flair than Italian as far as the Pegbox goes. He pointed out that the Brescian Scrolls have points on the Cheeks like the d'Salos do. I had also heard that Tom Martin looking at pics sometime ago also mentioned it looked Spanish. The Top is made from extremely fine grained Violin grade Spruce or Fir (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Storioni/images/tailpiece.jpg) but the detail (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Storioni/images/scroll_bk.jpg) work (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Storioni/images/heel_detail.jpg) throughout (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Storioni/images/L_Fhole.jpg) is that of a very fine maker considered to be above the average Italian that made Cornerless Basses and easily over the Spanish we have seen. Perhaps some Spaniard that trained in Italy or an Italian the moved to Spain who had exceptional skills made this fine Bass (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/DoubleBasses/Storioni/Storioni.htm) with a sound to rival most great Basses as well as its own beauty.

On the Brescian thing Duane reminded me that he is one of the organizers of the upcoming Brescian Expo in Italy starting in June this year for a month. Also, it will be a once in a lifetime viewing of several d'Salo and Maggini Basses that will may never may again in the same room. I did see a link but can't find it now. At this time, I don't know if I can get away to go.

[Anselm Hauke]

On the Brescian thing Duane reminded me that he is one of the organizers of the upcoming Brescian Expo in Italy starting in June this year for a month. Also, it will be a once in a lifetime viewing of several d'Salo and Maggini Basses that will may never may again in the same room. I did see a link but can't find it now. At this time, I don't know if I can get away to go.

do you mean this:
http://www.giopaolomaggini.com/
?

[Ken Smith]

do you mean this:
http://www.giopaolomaggini.com/
?


Yes, and thx for finding the link. This is what they have listed so far to be on show there; http://www.giopaolomaggini.com/w/en/on-show/instruments-on-show/

[Ken Smith]

And this is the Brescian Scroll style I was talking about that my Cornerless Bass doesn't have;

http://www.giopaolomaggini.com/i/strumenti/bassetto-giovanni-paolo-maggini-19-testa.jpghttp://www.giopaolomaggini.com/i/strumenti/double-bass-giovanni-paolo-maggini-20-teste.jpg

As listed for the expo are 3 more Maggini Basses (5 total) and the Dragonetti d'Salo as well which will be brought out still in its 3-string get-up as pictured in Elgar and Pio.

[Anselm Hauke]

At this time, I don't know if I can get away to go.

ha:), 90 minute flight for me, ken, if we meet there , we will drink some vino together, ok?

[Anselm Hauke]

do you mean this:
http://www.giopaolomaggini.com/
?

i know it´s off topic (but can maggini be offtopic?)
the exhibition is over, there are some pics and videos http://www.giopaolomaggini.com/w/cat/english/photos/
on their website

[Ken Smith]

i know it´s off topic (but can maggini be offtopic?)
the exhibition is over, there are some pics and videos http://www.giopaolomaggini.com/w/cat/english/photos/
on their website

Well actually one of those Maggini's belongs to the Asst. Principal of the National Symphony in Washington DC. While that Bass was there on Display in Brescia, he was borrowing my Cornerless Bass and sharing it with the Principal who is actually returning it today.

Does the Maggini post belong here? Well seeing as I have this added and connected story, it fits right in. I am sure that when the Bass is fully restored it will go right back to Washington for them to try again as they both loved playing it these past 7 weeks since it was picked up at my office by the Principal.

The small Bass called the 'Dumas' Maggini was on sale in 1971 when I was out on tour passing thru Chicago. I almost bought it but didn't have the money.. Small detail..lol

The Maggini Bass from DC/MD (National Symphony) I will get to play one day as I have an open invitation now after loaning out my Cornerless Bass to them.

[Ken Smith]

Last night for the first time I used my Cornerless Bass (Attr. Storioni) (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Storioni/Storioni.htm) on a fairly long Jazz gig. It was just a Duo with Piano. Normally I would use my Bisiach 'labeled' Bass (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Bisiach/Bisiach.htm) as it's kind of a do-all type Bass and fitted for a Pickup as well.

I received a call from a friend about a week ago about an unveiling of a Mosaic (http://www.answers.com/mosaic&r=67) of the Riccardi Bass (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Storioni/Storioni.htm) made by an Artist that is the wife of one of Riccardi's former Students. To be respectful, I brought the Bass to the ceremony and placed it beside the Mosaic for all to take pictures and see them side by side. I believe the Mosiac was made from the photos on my website as it doesn't show the C-extension that is in all the pictures of Riccardi playing the Bass. I removed it because I used the Ebony Chromatic type and not the mechanical version.

Anyway, to avoid carrying two Basses from my house on a 2-hour trip and then back to Philly for a 5 hour gig (yes, we play five(5) 45 min. sets with 15 min. breaks.. a long haul), I put my old trusty 1970s AKG mic wrapped in foam inside the Bridge feet like back in the old Studio days.

This Bass sounded so fat that when my son came in to listen from behind a wall where he couldn't see me, he thought I had brought a much bigger Bass as the further away you get in a room, the louder that Bass is acoustically. The Mic was only used for a little presence so that the piano player could hear my notes. He could feel the Bass, but couldn't hear it being so close.

With the Bass strung with regular Flexocor and a Stark Flex 'E', my son Jon said it sounded like Ray Brown's Bass, attack wise! I know the Bass is a top class bowing-orchestral Bass but until last night I had never tested its Jazz capabilities.

By the way, this Bass still has to go into restoration for about a year long overhaul. I wonder if it could sound even better? That is scary. There were several Bassists at the Riccardi Memorial and all of them had stories to tell about that Bass. It was fun watching them line up to try it once again as it had been awhile since any of them had seen or played that Bass.

I hope to be getting some Jpegs sent to me soon of the Mosaic as well as some photos of Riccardi playing the Bass. I will then put together a memorial page for him linked from the Cornerless Bass's page for all to see.

[Ken Smith]

Has any one ever seen Ermanno Ferrari with his Cornerless Bass or have some pictures to share with us? I have been told in a copy of a letter that he bought a Bass by Spanish maker J.Guillami from Gary Karr some years ago.

All I have found so far on the web is this; http://www.yamamoto-bass.com/cd/ferrari/ferrari.html

http://www.yamamoto-bass.com/cd/ferrari/8.jpg

[Ken McKay]

Ken,

Good story!
Did you notice the string length being a problem as compared to your others. Do you think the string length has anything to do with it's attack? Are you still planning to make it shorter?

My cornerless bass project is in plastic wrap while I set up 60 violins for local students. I will get back at it after the busy season.

[Ken Smith]

Ken,

Good story!
Did you notice the string length being a problem as compared to your others. Do you think the string length has anything to do with it's attack? Are you still planning to make it shorter?

My cornerless bass project is in plastic wrap while I set up 60 violins for local students. I will get back at it after the busy season.

Yes, I still have that plan in my head. This is an expensive Bass. I have to make sure it is playable for the average Orchestra pro should I decide to sell it down the road.

I have used a small piece of wood under the strings to assimilate a shorter string length and see how it might affect the sound. The most noticeable difference was the left hand stretch. The tone didn't seem to change all that much. Slightly tighter if anything. The organ like bottom is 2x the thickness I am used to so loosing a little of that and adding some punch would be an acceptable trade-off.

I think it should be made to a 42" length if not a hair shorter.

[Matthew Tucker]

Ken, did you know that David Weibe built a copy of the Riccardi bass?

[Ken Smith]

Ken, did you know that David Weibe built a copy of the Riccardi bass?

I have pictures of it as well. He did not copy the Scroll though and also used completely different wood than on the 'Riccardi' Bass. I think to have any chance at all to come close you must copy as much of the original Bass as possible including the materials used.

[Ken Smith]

http://www.contrabajo.org/foro/files/contrabajista_en_madrid_en_nov_1894_229.jpg

Found it here (http://www.contrabajo.org/foro/viewtopic.php?p=11414) while surfing..

[Ken McKay]

You need that hat.

Ken, take a look here http://www.upnorthstrings.com/cornerlessbasspage6 for a comparison of the bass I am making with the da Salo ff holes. They were copied from the photograph. Mine do look different, but kinda similar. It just goes to show that when you copy from a photo, then lay the paper over the contour of the bass top, they come out a little different. :confused: But live and learn. I will cut the nicks (sp) when I get the neck on and that will help.

As far as lopsided goes, It just came out that way without using a mold. I do regret not fixing the right upper bout when I had a chance. I am going to antique it in the end and all the characteristics will hopefully blend. It is what it is though.

[Ken Smith]

What I see in the FFs is that although you think they look similar, the curve concept is not even close. The length, width, taper, tabs, curves, position, pitch etc. It's a different F-pattern altogether, period.

If you were to show me 10 F-patterns with the d'Salo included and then showed me yours, it would be a slim chance I would guess you've ever seen the d'Salo. To me, they have no similarities other than they are FFs. Sorry, it's just how I see it.

Also your comment, "I didn't want them to look Cremonese". What does that have to do with d'Salo? He is from Brescia, not Cremona. What's wrong with looking Cremonese either? Giuseppe Guarneri was from Cremona as well but his F-pattern is completely different from Strad so what is it that you think would look Cremona?

[Anselm Hauke]

so this is a "Pietro Giacomo Rogeri (Brescia, 1680 - 1730)" ?

imho the f-holes may look brescian, but the rest of the bass looks very fine for a 300 year old bass. (?)

[Anselm Hauke]

http://www.fernandogrillo.net/FernandoGrillo/centrale/gallery/sm_FOTO_25.jpg

:) i also like this pic from mr. grillo.
(nice website, thanks eric)

[Ken Smith]

so this is a "Pietro Giacomo Rogeri (Brecia, 1680 - 1730)" ?

imho the f-holes may look brescian, but the rest of the bass looks very fine for a 300 year old bass. (?)

So they claim!

My Bass looks at least as old condition-wise but proving it's a Storioni let alone Rogeri or d'Salo as previously claimed is just as hard to swallow.

My Gilkes from 1814 is hard to believe as well condition-wise. The Hart Bass made only slightly later (c.1830) looks quite typical for a Bass that was used for almost 2 centuries. The Prescott Bass I has recently was another Bass in remarkable condition for its age as compared to other Prescotts we have seen.

I am not an expert on Rogeri or any other Italian maker for that matter. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. I am sure that in this case as with many others it is possible that the highest name 'on the food chain' was sought out and certified.

[Anselm Hauke]

but it sounds good (click on "mp3" on the navigationbar on the left)
i´m listening to "itesi" right now

http://www.fernandogrillo.net/FernandoGrillo/default.asp

[Ken Smith]

for comparison purposes..

http://www.fernandogrillo.net/FernandoGrillo/centrale/bass/sm_FOTO_1.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Storioni/images/full_FR.jpghttp://www.riccardisviolinshop.com/images/robert-riccardi-sr-lg.jpg
Pictured above, the late Bob Riccardi Sr. (http://www.riccardisviolinshop.com/img/rot3.jpg) with the attributed Storioni.

[Ken Smith]

I Email'd this to Fernando Grillo yesterday;

Hi, I was just shown your website today. Your Bass is similar to one that I have but they keep changing the attribution as to who made it. Mine has a long string length of about 112cms.

Nice to meet you and here is my Cornerless Bass; http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Storioni/Storioni.htm (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/Storioni/Storioni.htm)

Thank you, Ken Smith

Here is the reply I received today;

Bellissimo Storioni ... complimenti!

Con gli Auguri di Fernando Grillo


Il giorno 29/dic/07, alle ore 21:59, Ken Smith ha scritto:




So, what exactly did he say?

[Christopher Williams]

hi folks... i'm new to the forum but was intrigued by this thread. the subject of the "Spanish" photo above is most likely Catalan; though the list describes a "contrabajista en Madrid", my guess is that the player, the bass, or both are from these parts...

there is a relatively unknown tradition of pear-shaped bass luthiery in Catalonia which revolves around the instrument's presence in the "Cobla", or traditional dance orchestra that accompanies the "Sardana", a popular national folk dance one often sees in small towns on Sundays after mass. maybe someone is hip to these groups? the band consists of a flabiol (3-holed flute) player -- sort of a lead alto, if you will -- a few nasty traditional double reed instruments (tibles), a few more double reeds in a lower register (tenores), some trumpets, flugelhorns, valve trombones (or the like), and... the poor, overworked bassist, who pushes the whole thing uphill. with no help from anyone!

the typical instrument is (or was -- nowadays players tend to grab the cheapest, loudest Chinese plywood for the job), as the picture indicates, a slightly squatty pear-shaped bass with 3 gut strings, set up a yard off the fingerboard for maximum thumpage. the nickname for this style of bass is the "Berra" (Boar, a play on "Pera", for pear).

i've been told that there was something of a golden age in the construction of these instruments in the 19th century, esp. in the city of Tortosa, near Valencia. i've played a couple, plus some modern copies, and they're absolutely lovely. very special, a bit cantankerous but svelt. i would love to own one someday, though right now i'm happy with my little French bass, which i was told was imported as the Catalan market petered out.

another contrabassist who plays a beautiful Italian instrument is Stefano Scodaniddbio, new music virtuoso and former Grillo student. <http://www.stefanoscodanibbio.com/photos/gallery14.htm>

[Anselm Hauke]

Bellissimo Storioni ... complimenti! >>nice storioni...compliments<<<

Con gli Auguri di Fernando Grillo >>>???? from fernando grillo<<<<


Il giorno 29/dic/07, alle ore 21:59, Ken Smith ha scritto:

>>>> at 12/12/07 at 9:59 pm ken smith wrote:<<<<<

[Ken Smith]

Lucio Buccarella,contrabbasso, with his Cornerless Bass by Antonio Mariani, 1678 Pesaro.
http://www.imusici.info/nuove/buccarellaL.jpghttp://www.imusici.info/immagini/freetime1.jpg

Bassist with the Italian Chamber Orchestra 'I Musici (http://www.imusici.info/homeng.html)'. Scroll down the members page and see the Storioni Cello as well.

http://www.imusici.info/immaginiclick/i_musici5.jpghttp://www.imusici.info/immagini/budapestfiati.jpghttp://www.imusici.info/immagini/Musiciold1.jpg

[Ken Smith]

Antoni Torelló, a Catalan (http://www.mundoclasico.com/articulos/verarticulo.aspx?id=f0eee73b-ac62-4f35-a6f5-7630bae384c2) and formerly Principal of the Philly Orchestra.

http://www.mundoclasico.com/img/especiales/Torello/Torello2.jpg

Three strings? Is that what he's playing? Christopher Williams from Barcelona was right on target in his post above (post#78, last page).

[Nick Hart]

Hey Ken -

Grillo said:

Beautiful Storioni, with best wishes from him and then the date.

[Ken Smith]

Thx guys. I knew it was something close to that but wanted to get his actual words. I guess he either believes it's a real Storioni or is just being polite. I guess if it was a Spanish Bass like the one Torello is playing (I think it's Spanish) then Grillo might have mentioned it, but then again maybe not. His Bass however is beautiful looking.

[Brian Glassman]

Ken, I just played in a Strauss Waltz Orch on New Year'sDay w/ Dennis Masuzzo (the big 5ths tuning advocate) in the section and he had a beautiful cornerless Italian that is supposedly from 1833 by Vincenzo Lucarini. I wish I had taken a picture of it. It has a similar shape to Mr. Grillo's bass and had a very fine sound and spread throughout the room. My Prescott held it's own ;) next to it along w/ a really nice old Italian violin cornered bass that was from the late 1700's.

[Ken Smith]

Ken, I just played in a Strauss Waltz Orch on New Year'sDay w/ Dennis Masuzzo (the big 5ths tuning advocate) in the section and he had a beautiful cornerless Italian that is supposedly from 1833 by Vincenzo Lucarini. I wish I had taken a picture of it. It has a similar shape to Mr. Grillo's bass and had a very fine sound and spread throughout the room. My Prescott held it's own ;) next to it along w/ a really nice old Italian violin cornered bass that was from the late 1700's.

Here's one I found from Italy, c.1840 but reported stolen in 2002 (http://www.contrabbassi.it/varie.html);

http://www.contrabbassi.it/immagini/contrarub.jpg

Label Vincenzo Lucarini
Fecit in Faentae 1840

[Ken Smith]

One of the greatest makers in the 19th century, Giuseppe Baldontoni (http://www.contrabbassi.it/baldantoni.html). This Bass from 1850.

http://www.contrabbassi.it/immagini/archivio/baldantoni_fronte.jpghttp://www.contrabbassi.it/immagini/archivio/baldantoni_retro.jpg

This is the 3rd Baldontoni I have seen. Great looking Basses.

[Brian Glassman]

Here's one I found from Italy, c.1840 but reported stolen in 2002 (http://www.contrabbassi.it/varie.html);

http://www.contrabbassi.it/immagini/contrarub.jpg

Label Vincenzo Lucarini
Fecit in Faentae 1840

I do not think that is Dennis' bass. His is squatier shaped in the lower bouts and I belive he's had it longer than 2002.

BG

[Ken Smith]

I do not think that is Dennis' bass. His is squatier shaped in the lower bouts and I believe he's had it longer than 2002.

BG

I agree. His Scroll/tuners look different as well as the Varnish color if that's the same Bass on his website..

http://www.dennismasuzzo.com/images/HeadshotSmall.JPG

My main reason for showing the other Bass was to get a better look at one from that maker that I found on the net.

[Charlie Hack]

Wow...

I posted the original question about cornerless basses a while back, and I've just logged in for the first time in a while. This thread has grown into a wealth of information. Fascinating stuff. Just goes to show what a great resource the internet is for communication and research. When a bunch of bass geeks... I mean enthusiasts... pool their information, we get this. Awesome!

Cheers all,

Charlie

[Ken Smith]

Wow...

I posted the original question about cornerless basses a while back, and I've just logged in for the first time in a while. This thread has grown into a wealth of information. Fascinating stuff. Just goes to show what a great resource the internet is for communication and research. When a bunch of bass geeks... I mean enthusiasts... pool their information, we get this. Awesome!

Cheers all,

Charlie

Yes, you started this first thread (http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=58) about 10 days earlier than my thread here on the Italians. I wanted to have a specific one about the old Italians where it all started and then included the Spanish in the title as they too started using this shape later on. Both Threads talk about the Italians but your talks about old and new regardless of where they are being made. TalkBass has one as well on Guitar and Pear Shaped Basses (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=301734&highlight=cornerless) started by you as well. So tell me, which Forum gave you the most info on the subject?

Now I have two cornerless Basses but both are going into some long term restorations soon so it will be a year or more before I have either of them back. Jeff is doing the Storioni and Arnold is doing the one I acquired recently. Playing them first hand, I can really see how they vibrate differently than cornered Basses.

[Matthew Tucker]

... and Arnold is doing the one I acquired recently.

?? Which one would that be, then??

[Ken Smith]

?? Which one would that be, then??

Well, it's another Italian Bass. Arnold and I have decided not to show it or market it till after the Bass is fully restored and ready to play.

My website is full of Basses in restoration so leaving out 1 or 2 won't hurt. For now, it's just another old Bass that can't be played yet. I briefly tested it and it does sound good, real good. Playing it will only make it worse so it's off the market and out of sight for a year or so, possibly two.

[Matthew Tucker]

Well, it's another Italian Bass [...] Playing it will only make it worse so it's off the market and out of sight for a year or so, possibly two.

Well, I don't believe you. You're making it up. No way you have bought a second italian cornerless bass. ;)

[Ken Smith]

Well, I don't believe you. You're making it up. No way you have bought a second italian cornerless bass. ;)

Ok, if you say so. The Back and one piece Ribs (no corner blocks) seem to be Walnut, I think. That's all I will say. Ask me in a year or so about it. By then I should have some sort of update on its progress. That's IF I actually did buy the Bass. :D

Basses are offered to me from time to time in various situations. If I like it and think it's a good candidate, then I might buy it. The list of Basses I turn down is way way bigger that the list of Basses I am interested to buy. Also, I can't afford to buy every Bass. The deal has to be 'just right' to appeal to me. Most of the Basses I buy need a lot of work right off the bat. Others can use some work if I want to get it in top playing condition. Last year I almost bought another small Cornerless Italian Bass in Italy but didn't push hard to get it. A local player bought it over there so it never made it across the pond.

[Matthew Tucker]

"Jordi Ruscada


Made in Barcelona, Spain, 2000
String length: 41 1/2" An interesting Pear shaped instrument inspired by basses built in Catalunya between the 1840's and 1850's. Top is a book matched set of spruce, back and ribs are of plain maple.

http://zacharysmartin.com/images/forsale/basses/Ruscada/Ruscada_2.jpg

found at http://zacharysmartin.com (http://zacharysmartin.com/)

[Ken Smith]

Yes, I know about that Bass BUT who are the Makers from Barcelona that made Basses like that? Show me one. The Makers in Spain ALL copied the Italians and J.B. Guillaumi Snr. (father and grandfather of Juan I and II) who is one of the earliest makers in Barcelona trained in Cremona.

I am still waiting to see a 'confirmed' Spanish Bass that looks anything like mine. Also, one with a similar grade of wood and workmanship as well.

The French copied the Italians as well. That doesn't mean every time you see a Violin you can point to a Violin style made in France in the 1850. That is a late period. Where did they get it from. Ah haa...

Speaking of... This design in the Back is actually French;
http://zacharysmartin.com/images/forsale/basses/Ruscada/Ruscada_4_tn.jpg

[Anselm Hauke]

hm...well...ok...not spanish...not italian...
but cornerless, hungarian, and cheap
http://cgi.ebay.de/5-Saitiger-Kontrabass-Handarbeit_W0QQitemZ120227157770QQihZ002QQcategory Z84680QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Matthew Tucker]

... and ugly! what's with the whacky ffs? Beurkh!

[Ken Smith]

hm...well...ok...not spanish...not italian...
but cornerless, hungarian, and cheap
http://cgi.ebay.de/5-Saitiger-Kontrabass-Handarbeit_W0QQitemZ120227157770QQihZ002QQcategory Z84680QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Well, Not Italian but it's the thought that counts. Figure that 'Cornerless' has been going on in Italy for about 500 years or so. Then we see it 200-300 years later coming out of Spain (that's just a guess). This just means that it's never too late for someone to start including the Hungarians.

With all the great fakes that have come out of Hungary in the last few years I am not surprised at all to see this. But those FFs.. YUCK! You are supposed to go to the Bar for a drink (or two) AFTER you finish work, not before.:eek:

[Anselm Hauke]

some pics and infos about a cornerless landolfi is here:http://www.xbass.org/en/taxonomy/term/54

(and also the baldantoni ken mentioned before)

[Martin Sheridan]

Hi Ken,

I think you do nothing good by putting braces in the ribs of your cornerless bass. The 90 degree attachment will likely lead to rib cracks, just like at the corners of old basses where the rib shrinks and the block stays put. If you are concerned about a small rib crack developing into a "zipper" and traveling around the whole body, you can run some linen strips across the ribs about every 8-10" or so. Put them in with weak hide glue and run them up onto the linings, otherwise you'll cause a new stress point where the linen ends. My experience is that these strips remain a tiny bit flexible, and while they stop small cracks from spreading, they don't cause new ones. I have been using this technique in all my handmade basses. Old Martin guitars have similar strips I've been told.

Good input, Arnold. Stradivari, according to Saconni, used linen strips in his cellos. He said in the cellos where they had not been removed those cellos still had no rib cracks.
(Edit) I've been thinking about this, and although I agree with your logic, the addition of braces isn't that different from having corner blocks, is it? I made a Benedetto style archtop guitar a few years ago and although I didn't put them in that guitar Benedetto recommended them along with the linings. It might help add some stability? I do like the idea of the linen strips. I used them in my basses and cellos for awhile, but haven't done so lately.

[Ken McKay]

Linen linings in place on my cornerless bass.

Actually Martin, I did try some cross strips at first but took them out because I didn't like the feel. I think they made the sides too stiff. I had the ribs without mold and I could bonk them to assess their stiffness.

Just like Arnold, who advised me, I would advise you to forgo the wood and go with linen if anything.

[Martin Sheridan]

Are your linings wider than normal?

That's going to be a nice bass. What do you use for varnish and sealer or ground?

[Ken McKay]

Are your linings wider than normal?

That's going to be a nice bass. What do you use for varnish and sealer or ground?

I hope so Marting, thanks.

Olde-Italian authentic varnish of course.

[Matthew Tucker]

Have we seen this one before? Supposedly Italian.


http://www.paris-contrebasses.com/DATA/Image/DV9.jpg

[Martin Sheridan]

Ken,
What is the length of the fs on your cornerless bass?

[Ken Smith]

Ken,
What is the length of the fs on your cornerless bass?

Short but you will have to ask Arnold to measure them. He has the bass now and is fitting a plaster mold for the Top arching on the G side which was depressed over time. The Bassbar side is fine thankfully.

[Ken Smith]

Have we seen this one before? Supposedly Italian.


http://www.paris-contrebasses.com/DATA/Image/DV9.jpg

Sorry for the late reply Matt...

Yes, to my eye it looks very Italian or could be Spanish as well.

Where is this bass?

[Matthew Tucker]

It is, or was in Bruno Brett's shop in Paris. He calls it 18th C "Storioni school".

I have asked them for more information, but none forthcoming yet ..

[Ken Smith]

It is, or was in Bruno Brett's shop in Paris. He calls it 18th C "Storioni school".

I have asked them for more information, but none forthcoming yet ..

Ever since the Elgar book came out with a Cornerless bass shown and the write-up about him making these, anything similar is usually named after him one way or another. I have head Rogeri as well on at least two occasions.

I was told that the bass in the book is NOT Storioni and there is another bass known as a Storioni in another Museum not far from the one that has the Cornerless. The other bass is not Cornerless. I also saw a smallish Italian bass, very old over here that belongs to the Curtis Institute that they call a Storioni as well. Violin cornered bass..

With my bass is restoration, looking inside it now and even before the bass was opened, it looks to be too old to be by Storioni but who knows?

Keep us informed if you hear anymore about this bass.

[Adrian Juras]

I know this is a bit of an older thread, but how is the restoration going on your Storioni Ken? I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts on it when it is complete!

[Ken Smith]

I know this is a bit of an older thread, but how is the restoration going on your Storioni Ken? I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts on it when it is complete!

Old thread start maybe but never ending I am sure.

What looked like a minor treble side Top pressing has been re-evaluated into being a total Top re-shaping. The Top is off and the neck is out with the Scroll/pegbox detached. The Neck is toast and incorrect so it's firewood. The Scroll is to be fully repaired and then grafted into the Block-cut carcass when it gets to that point. Time is our friend here as some of the stress and depression has come back on its own just getting some rest without the string tension on it. The rest of the Top shaping will be a major job. The Back and Ribs need total restoration as well.

Ask me again this time next year if I haven't already posted on it.. lol

You are welcome to ask Arnold BUT this may also fall under 'Doctor-Patient Confidentiality'!

[Carlos Villarreal]

i,ll just add this youtube link for those whohave not heard Edicson Ruiz videos on youtube with his 1750 cornerless Landolfi. Btw he uses 3 diffrent bridges, one for 3 string Bottessini stuff, another for low action vieneese tuning and another one with higher action for modern playing. I had a chance to hear this bass for a whole week when Edicson came to solo with our orchestra. Its a dark sounding instrument, that projects really well at far.

http://www.youtube.com/user/doublebassVenezuela

[Ken Smith]

i,ll just add this youtube link for those whohave not heard Edicson Ruiz videos on youtube with his 1750 cornerless Landolfi. Btw he uses 3 diffrent bridges, one for 3 string Bottessini stuff, another for low action vieneese tuning and another one with higher action for modern playing. I had a chance to hear this bass for a whole week when Edicson came to solo with our orchestra. Its a dark sounding instrument, that projects really well at far.

http://www.youtube.com/user/doublebassVenezuela

I have seen 2 other Basses named Landolfi. One was a 3/4 Gamba and the other a 7/8 Violin cornered. I don't remember if flat or round back. None of them including this cornerless look alike one bit.

He is a great player. The sound you describe could be the same if it were my bass as I've heard this from others in the past. Is this bass a Landolfi? Who knows as he even mentions 'possibly by'. The shape of his bass (http://www.youtube.com/user/doublebassVenezuela#p/a/u/2/aAGFDk0szwI) looks a lot like mine (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/storioni/) but not the FFs, just the body outline.

By they way, as my Bass is apart and in restoration it is looking about 50 years older than Storioni's period by two professional opinions so far. One thinks the Scroll has a Cremona flavor. The other thinks it's simplistically beautiful at the head. A third opinion as well as Arnold's and even mine now is that the rounded bottom of the pegbox is very possibly a later but very old modification. It was maybe done for a needed repair to a broken button. There are about 4 grafts visible in the back there. Arnold will leave a similar 2mm or so line across the button area showing the current graft as part of the bass's history. The rounded button area is there to stay. What's done is done!

[Adrian Juras]

i,ll just add this youtube link for those whohave not heard Edicson Ruiz videos on youtube with his 1750 cornerless Landolfi. Btw he uses 3 diffrent bridges, one for 3 string Bottessini stuff, another for low action vieneese tuning and another one with higher action for modern playing. I had a chance to hear this bass for a whole week when Edicson came to solo with our orchestra. Its a dark sounding instrument, that projects really well at far.

http://www.youtube.com/user/doublebassVenezuela

Beautiful bass. There really is something pleasing about the shape of a cornerless(or guitar shaped) bass. Very intriguing. I look forward to hearing more about yours Ken as the restoration continues!

[Ken Smith]

Beautiful bass. There really is something pleasing about the shape of a cornerless(or guitar shaped) bass. Very intriguing. I look forward to hearing more about yours Ken as the restoration continues!

It is a slow going process. The Top mold is being made soon. Then it's a matter of time for the Top to be brought back gradually. In the mean time, the Back, Ribs and Neck will be worked on. Maybe I will have a special X-mas this year!.. Maybe I will win the lottery as well.. without even buying a ticket.. lol

I hope to see it sooner than later but it's a huge job. The other one I have in restoration might be done sooner. That is not as big a Job but no small one either.

[Ken Smith]

Today after another brief discussion with Arnold who is restoring the 'ex-Riccardi bass' I have decided to remove the Storioni attribution from the listing and change it officially to "Italian Guitar Model Bass, Italy, 18th Century".

When I first bought the Bass a well known historian that knew the Bass said it was not Storioni or even Cremona and most likely 19th century. When two prominent Bass Luthiers looked inside the bass their estimates were approximately mid-18th century, give or take a few decades.

Now that the Bass is opened up and getting worked on the 1750 or so estimate looks more likely than anything near the 19th century. Who actually made it? I don't really know, I wasn't there! Perhaps in the future something will come along and tell us more. I did see a slightly similar Scroll/pegbox on another Italian Bass but that had I think a replaced Back and was not cornerless. The FFs were different as well but, the Scroll was close and maybe not a match for the Bass it was on.

When I first heard of this Bass for sale about a year or two before getting it I was told it was a Rogeri. When I bought it the name was changed back to Storioni which it had been called before it was a Rogeri. Perhaps the Bass going to market was the reason for all the famous name calling.

This by no means in itself lessens the greatness of this Double Bass but it does relieve me in the 'burden of proof' if it were to be sold. Regardless, it will not change the asking price either!;)

[Adrian Juras]

Very interesing. Although I'm sure it will be difficult to find out who actually made the bass, I hope that as the restoration continues you and Arnold can find out more towards this. This is certainly an intriguing bass. Are you having Arnold make an extension for it as well?

[Ken Smith]

Very interesing. Although I'm sure it will be difficult to find out who actually made the bass, I hope that as the restoration continues you and Arnold can find out more towards this. This is certainly an intriguing bass. Are you having Arnold make an extension for it as well?

An Extension will be made similar to the latest ones made for the Hart and Jacquet. All Orchestra grade Basses I have get Extensions so that they are complete in their own way.

On the maker, I don't know what clues could be found short of a label or inscription by the maker. Even then, proving the name to be real to the bass would be nearly as difficult. With 'one-off' makes or one-of-a-kinds there is very little to match up as far as a maker goes. This bass is quite unique in itself.

I will be happy with just the bass being repaired, restored, healthy again and sounding like it did before. A name wont do all that much except to use for marketing the bass when it gets sold.

Even in the old shops in Italy it is believed that basses were less important than violins so it could be from a particular shop but not made be the master himself. In that case we are dealing with a 'shop bass' that may have one or more 'unknown' hands in the mix. At that point, no one knows who made what unless they were there to witness it.

[Ken Smith]

Ok, here's a few pics of the Bass during the Varnish touch-up stage that Arnold just sent me. I have several pics of the repair process but like watching a Heart Transplant, some internal operative pics are not for the faint!:eek:

The flame in this maple is the best I have ever seen. The Scroll repair from the old extension cut in this pic is invisible to my eye.

[Ken Smith]

I don't remember seeing this Bass posted but I just found it on line (Vito Liuzzi's site), Pedro Valls;
http://u.jimdo.com/www29/o/sb34864868412b1e7/img/i2bb13f94e78cd746/1279208486/std/pedro-valls.jpg

I am not 100% certain but I think this is a Spanish Bass.

In searching on the 'net I read this eye opening paragraph;
"In Spain, two new fretted string instruments related to the lute emerged in late medieval times and spread around the Western world. These were the vihuela (Spanish guitar) and the viol. Our modern, classical guitar is a direct descendant of the vihuela. Because it was plucked it was often called vihuela de mano (hand guitar). Related to it was a Spanish instrument called the vihuela de arco (bowed guitar), better known as the viol. The viol was developed in Spain in the late 1400s. It had six strings and was fretted and tuned like the lute and vihuela, but it was bowed, not plucked. It came in different sizes and was played with the instrument resting on the lap and legs. It is often called by its Italian name viola da gamba (leg viol). Having entered Italy from Spain, it quickly spread from there throughout Western Europe."

From; "The Invention of the Violin and the Spanish Guitar" (http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/4372)

It seems from this article that the Guitar Shaped Viol came from Spain originally and not Italy. Not counting politics but rather the intermingling of makers training in Italy from Spain it's easy to see how the two styles would merge into almost one. The Italians borrowing from Spain and the Spanish making Italian Violins. J.B. Guillami and Juan (Johannes) Guillami (http://www.amatibooks.com/images/13400238F3.jpg) are reported to have trained in Italy. Juan II's instruments looking the same as the fathers but the father reportedly a better maker. Both are famed for their Double Basses, rare, sought after and valuable. J.B. Guillami is referenced in one of my books but the main book on Spanish makers by Ramon Pinto (http://www.casaparramon.com/english/casa_parramon.htm) sells from $250-450 and I don't have one. I do know where one is so next time I am there, I will try to spend a few minutes looking up the family of Guillami. I emailed Pinto a few times about my Bass and he never replied.

Is my Bass possibly by Guillami? If so, it's by J.B. or Juan I (possibly the son of J.B.) as Juan II is too late in time to be associated with this bass from the looks of its age. The Pinto book does not mention J.B. but the earlier Henley book does (not Jalovec!). Also, it's mentioned that J.B. trained in Cremona and dated his instruments as if made there. It could be possible that J.B. IS actually Juan/Johannes and just anti-dated some of his instruments upon returning from Italy, possibly Turin or Naples. It is not uncommon to see makers anti-dating their work or place of making for profit or whatever. It is also possible that for some reason, his name was left out of the book as no single book is perfect. If Pinto believed J.B.'s labels as being an Italian maker, then he may have left him out of the Spanish listings. The Spanish school being of less importance than other parts of Europe may also be to blame for the lack of research we see as compared to other schools of making.

In reading the elder dated J.B. as compared to Juan I, the description of work of J.B. fits more along the lines of my Bass as his Violins (I think) are described as having fine wood and wide purfling as well as a similar varnish color to my bass. This could fit a thousand other makers but between these two, I go with the earlier by description.

Compare this on line copied from Henley as compared to the Link from the Pinto book (http://www.amatibooks.com/images/13400238F3.jpg);
"GUILLAMI, JUAN (1)
Worked at Barcelona, 1720-1765. Pretty outline based on Stradivarian principles - sometimes reminiscent of a Gagliano. Arching of medium height. General style quite of Italian traits which he had imbued during several years’ sojourn in that country. Said to have been A pupil of Guadagnini. Had no plastic mind to control his somewhat erratic portrayal of a scroll, this being altogether of weak conception, thickly built but of narrow proportions. Ridges of volute marked with Indian ink. Ribs rather deep. Measurements: Body length, 35-1/2 cm.; upper bouts, 16.7; middle, 10.8; lower, 20.7. Belly wood always of close and strong fibre. Reddish shade of oil varnish, but not particularly supple.
’Cellos of fair Stradivarian design, well-calculated arching, and golden red varnish. Also several much sought for double-basses.
-----------------------------
Joannes Guillami me
fecit en Bar: anno 1760
-----------------------------
--------------------------------
Joannes Guillami me fecit
en Barcelona 1742
--------------------------------
Branded near sound-post. £450, 1959.

GUILLAMI, JUAN (2)
Son of the preceding. Worked at Barcelona, 1767. Died 1820. Similar style to that of father, but a defined line of demarcation rests between the workmanship, wood, and varnish. Wood often carelessly chosen, particularly that for the tops. Varnish rather brittle and chippy.
Also ’cellos and double-basses. £300, 1959.
---------------------------------------
Joannes Guillami
filius fecit Barcinone anno 1768"

[Matthew Tucker]

Had no plastic mind to control his somewhat erratic portrayal of a scroll ...

so THAT's what I need :D

[Ken Smith]

so THAT's what I need :D

Hey, I am just posting the Link. By the way, if you have the Henley Book or follow that Link site changing the URL letter code alphabetically, you can read much of what's in Henley but not all the makers listed. Very interesting reading regardless of the accuracy of the information.

Note: JB Guillami is listed in Henley but the edited book on line does not list him.

http://www.ricercare.com/research/library/dictionary/g_contents.html (http://www.ricercare.com/research/library/dictionary/g_contents.html)

s_ or a or g or whatever letter you like. I am surprised that site does not credit their source. After reading a few of the makers, I looked them up in Henley and found it's a copy!

[Matthew Tucker]

Only crappy pics to compare with, but FWIW I think the outline, ff placement and neck block of the bass shown above are very similar to the cornerless bass on page 116 of Elgar's book.

[Adrian Juras]

Ok, here's a few pics of the Bass during the Varnish touch-up stage that Arnold just sent me. I have several pics of the repair process but like watching a Heart Transplant, some internal operative pics are not for the faint!:eek:

The flame in this maple is the best I have ever seen. The Scroll repair from the old extension cut in this pic is invisible to my eye.

WOW! That looks GREAT! Arnold did a terrific job on the scroll. The whole bass looks great.

[Ken Smith]

Only crappy pics to compare with, but FWIW I think the outline, ff placement and neck block of the bass shown above are very similar to the cornerless bass on page 116 of Elgar's book.

Yes, similar not so curvy outline as with my bass as well as others I have seen that we think are Italian but who knows. I was informed some time ago that the bass on page 116 is NOT a Storioni but that's what it's called in that book.

The basses with less curve have more long continuous grains of wood in the top and back plates having wider center bouts which contributes to the sound.

[Matthew Tucker]

... more long continuous grains of wood in the top and back plates having wider center bouts which contributes to the sound.

Contributes in a positive way or a negative way?

I read that a lot but I don't get what the length of the wood fibres/grains has to do with the price of eggs.

[Ken Smith]

Contributes in a positive way or a negative way?

I read that a lot but I don't get what the length of the wood fibres/grains has to do with the price of eggs.

Longer fibers uninterrupted by bout curves and blocks produces a deeper sound. The new copy bass proved that as it's the deepest plush sounding bass that Arnold has produced from similar woods.

Eggs? Price depends on where you shop..:eek:

One more think on sound. This bass before restoration had a similar sound to the attributed Maggini (now attributed d'Salo) that Tom Martin has beed trying to sell for some 300 GBP but will go to auction soon at a 150-200 GBP estimated return. Also, the Seraphin attributed bass (formerly attributed to Busan) that was traded to the Minnesota Orchestra a few years back for the Maggini?/dSalo? bass also had a similar sound.

The other two basses mentioned above are Large Violin outlined basses close to or at a 4/4 measurement depending on who you ask. My Cornerless bass although a 44+" string length then, fit in a 3/4 bag and has medium depth ribs. Still, it put out sound as deep, thick and loud as the others.

So, in this case, design beats size with no loss or sound.

Unless you play these basses, it's very hard to understand what I am saying as I myself thought I understood it until I played all 3 of these basses within the same year or so. It's a live and learn kinda thing in my opinion. Until you taste it, you don't know what I am describing. The same with sound and feel. My 2 cents.;)

[Matthew Tucker]

Longer fibers uninterrupted by bout curves and blocks produces a deeper sound.

Thanks for your 2c and I respect your experience with many fine basses, but I still don't see how one can make a generalisation like that. Or perhaps I'm not getting an important detail?

By that simple logic, the wider the FFs are apart, the deeper the sound, because there are more long fibres running the length of the bass. Simple as that. But it's not that simple is it? Your cornerless has ffs quite close together. So WHERE are the long fibres? At the edges? Nope, because they are "cut" by the arching at the C bouts outside the FFs. In the centre? Perhaps, up to the edges of the FFs and along the flat part of the long arch before it drops at each end. But then, a bass with more widely spaced ffs would be deeper. But you know that is not always the case, is it?

Or maybe are you talking about RIB fibres? A cornerless has way long interrupted rib fibres, yes. But i don't think this is what you mean.

Or maybe the fibres above the lower eye of the ffs? Yes, with wider centre bout there is more uninterrupted wood above the outside of the FFs, relatively speaking, but the fibres themselves are probably no longer as they have been cut by the arch carving.

The only way to get longer fibres is to BEND the plates a la Bill Fulton. But we don't see that very often.

So, I think that when it comes to doubles basses, one generalises at one's peril! :D

[Matthew Tucker]

Well, I just thought, a flat BACK plate with wider C bouts would have longer fibres, yes. And you did say this. So perhaps THIS is where your theory is based. But not IMO on the top plate, or a carved back. It's too curvy to have many continuous fibres.

[Ken Smith]

Well, I just thought, a flat BACK plate with wider C bouts would have longer fibres, yes. And you did say this. So perhaps THIS is where your theory is based. But not IMO on the top plate, or a carved back. It's too curvy to have many continuous fibres.

I don't know. It's getting confusing. The Cornerless has a sound to die for and the Copy will get there in time and IT has corners with a round back. The only close copy part is the Scroll and the Top with the exception of the corners.

So, I will go to sleep tonight not worrying about this theory or science at all. Why, I have the bass to play on and for whatever reasons (if none that I've mentioned), it's one of the best sounding basses money can buy. :)

[Ken Smith]

On the Spanish family Guillami of 2 or 3 generations my C.Stainer book (over 100 years old dated 1/11/95 on the back) was a reference; "GUILLAMI, Spanish family of Violin-makers, about 1680-1780." This reference by date includes J.B. , the eldest listed maker also listed by Henley.

Just now I found a link on line listing Italian makers (http://www.selectviolins.com/makers/italian_violin_makers.html) and found the exact same quote, obviously copied from C.Stainer.

[Ken Smith]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtIJqprEcNY&feature=player_embedded#at=338

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAGFDk0szwI&feature=player_embedded

[Ken Smith]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51yxA7bCq3L._SS500_.jpg

[Matthew Tucker]

Such flat arching on that bass Edicson Ruiz is playing!

Also you get a bit better look at the other bass here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq5VmnafAww&feature=related

[Anselm Hauke]

big pictures of edicsons bass you can see here:
http://www.edicsonruiz.com/en/gallery.php

(also pics of the threestring version)

[Ken Smith]

Edison's looks slight small and the other bass, even smaller.

My Bass although fits in a 3/4 bag is not that small of a bass. If the shoulders were wider, it would need a 7/8ths case.

Also, the sound of those basses do not sound like deep full toned Orchestra basses. Maybe it's the strings but with the speakers I have here, they both sound on the thin side.

[Ken Smith]

Folks, it doesn't get much better than this..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMsGN11xL0I&feature=player_embedded#at=304

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04y20DrDooA&feature=player_embedded#at=271

[Matthew Tucker]

Folks, it doesn't get much better than this..


yeah but can they swing?:cool:

[Ken Smith]

My new Desktop Background.. http://www.smithbassforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2034&d=1299905555

is coming home today..:)

[Matthew Tucker]

Nice work. That's quite a change!

http://www.smithbassforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2034&d=1299905555

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/storioni/images/heel_detail.jpg

[Ken Smith]

Nice work. That's quite a change!

Yes, indeed it is and thanks for the appreciation. I have been on the 'owner end' of a few 'Block-Cuts' by Arnold but this by far is the most beautiful. The wide Ebony Caps are reminiscent of my Candi which was done that way when the bass was originally made. Arnold had to repair and replace some of that capping when the neck graft was done.

Arnold is welcome to discuss any of the 'inside skinny' concerning this restoration but like surgery on humans, I doubt the patient wants all the gory details of what happened inside while he was asleep.:eek:

In this case, I have seen plenty and little scares me at this point as far as basses go. ;)

[Eric Swanson]

I recall Phil Manieri's comment awhile ago, that the "Storioni" was "just sick" to play (indescribably beyond good), even before the restoration.

I look forward to hearing about how the bass plays, now...

Such lovely work! Beautifully conceived and wonderfully executed...

Ken, thanks for sharing those photos...

[Adrian Juras]

Ken, was the bass slightly cut to make the shorter string length possible?

[Eric Hochberg]

I've been curious, since I first saw it, about that before restoration button pic, the purfling, center seam strip, etc. are off center to the neck. Now everything looks on center. What's the story with that?

[Ken Smith]

The Neck Block area was cut to reduce the string length and also the new neck is a regular size as opposed to the longer Eb length from before.

The old button cap is not original. The neck before this one had a different button and THAT was not original either. It had a purfled design in it still on the old broken neck but does not match the purfling of the bass.

The center strip is vertical grain maple with outer ebony strips. This is actually an inlay in the back and does not go all the way thru. Inside the back under the center strips we were able to see the clean jointed original back center. Only after the bass was taken apart did we find out that the center strip was inlaid 'into' and over the center joint of the back.

Arnold did a fantastic job modifying the bass and cleaning it all up to look at original and cosmetically pleasing to the naked eye.

The sound is still there. I took off the set of Original Flat chromes that were on as a test and switched it to Belcantos (both sets used). With the Bel's, the bass sounds amazing just like before but mush easier to play.:)

After consideration and knowledge learned about the bass, I am re-naming it 'back' to its 45 year attribution of Storioni.

[Matthew Tucker]

I'm interested to hear how Arnold approached stabilising the burled maple ribs. They looked very fragile from the outside.

[Ken Smith]

I'm interested to hear how Arnold approached stabilizing the burled maple ribs. They looked very fragile from the outside.

I don't think 'stabilizing' was an issue here. The two-part Ribs held up very well over its 200+ year old life. The thinner outer burled maple had cracked in several areas and with some blistering as well. A small piece or two around the sides were replaced. The inner Spruce layer was in very good condition as were the linings for the most part.

Arnold did point out one interesting thing here. The endpin hole was way off center. If measuring the long side, hole center to plate, then doubling that number comes to over 9" in depth. IF that were the case, then somewhere along the line before we were all born, the Rib depth of this Bass was cut down to its current depth. This is just a guess as we were not there back then and do not see enough evidence to certify that as fact.

Maybe Arnold will come up and explain in detail but I know he went around the Ribs working small areas at a time each day until it was all re-glued where ever necessary. I assume glue and clamps were used and maybe some non-stick material was used as a caul between the ribs and clamps for pressing any areas that were blistering. It looks very good now. ;)

Maybe in 200 years it will need some more repairs so someone write this down so we don't forget how to when that time rolls around!:eek:

[Pino Cazzaniga]

Ken,
Is the hole nearer to the top or the back? How was the back edge in that area?

[Ken Smith]

Ken,
Is the hole nearer to the top or the back? How was the back edge in that area?

The hole was towards the front. http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/storioni/images/full_L.jpg

The back edge looked fine I believe but the center strip was falling apart at the bottom. Arnold repaired the center down there.

[Eric Swanson]

New photos? I can hardly wait...

[Ken Smith]

New photos? I can hardly wait...

I am kind of busy between work and playing the bass. When the web page is up, I will post the link but, it will be the same page as now, just modified with new pics.

I played it last night after a few personal tweaks (I had to force myself to put the bass down and go home as 2am was rolling around). I wish all basses had this kind of tone. The new neck is beautiful and the bass plays so easy. Now I have to start practicing to get used to the bass and be worthy of owning an instrument like this to play personally.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

The inner Spruce layer was in very good condition as were the linings for the most part.

Actually, the linings on the back side were shot and were replaced.

Arnold did point out one interesting thing here. The endpin hole was way off center. If measuring the long side, hole center to plate, then doubling that number comes to over 9" in depth. IF that were the case, then somewhere along the line before we were all born, the Rib depth of this Bass was cut down to its current depth. This is just a guess as we were not there back then and do not see enough evidence to certify that as fact.I could not figure another reason why the endpin was so far off-center.

Maybe Arnold will come up and explain in detail but I know he went around the Ribs working small areas at a time each day until it was all re-glued where ever necessary. I assume glue and clamps were used and maybe some non-stick material was used as a caul between the ribs and clamps for pressing any areas that were blistering. It looks very good now. ;)I lanced all the openings, injected hot hide glue and clamped using lucite strips to flatten the areas.

[Matthew Tucker]

thanks. I assume the spruce doubling on the ribs was cross-grain?

[Ken Smith]

thanks. I assume the spruce doubling on the ribs was cross-grain?

The grain runs across Top to Back, bent along its grain lines from Block to Block.

[Scott Pope]

Speculation: if the ribs were narrowed, it would seem to me more likely that a luthier would narrow them from the back; otherwise it would take a lot of re-engineering of the neck block instead of just a trim of the button side of the heel, which unless there were grave structural problems with the "top" side of the ribs would not be a cost effective modification to the bass, or any bass. And if it were trimmed from the rear, then the peg, assuming centered originally, would be farther back than forward.

I vote for it "always having been that way."

Please correct me if my reasoning is not sound (pun intended).

[Matthew Tucker]

except that the front is flat, so to me it would be easier to re-engineer the front than the bent back. But I reckon it was installed that way. I don't always put the endpin dead centre. It depends how the bass balance feels.

[Ken Smith]

Speculation: if the ribs were narrowed, it would seem to me more likely that a luthier would narrow them from the back; otherwise it would take a lot of re-engineering of the neck block instead of just a trim of the button side of the heel, which unless there were grave structural problems with the "top" side of the ribs would not be a cost effective modification to the bass, or any bass. And if it were trimmed from the rear, then the peg, assuming centered originally, would be farther back than forward.

I vote for it "always having been that way."

Please correct me if my reasoning is not sound (pun intended).

I have no idea. In fact, when I got the bass it was such a joy to play sitting OR standing I never gave it an ounce of thought until Arnold mentioned it. I thought it was just that way! Also, it's not the first old Bass I'd acquired where the endpin was not exactly centered.

These are very old basses, made with 3 gut strings originally when playing bass music was much simpler. Mozart was new music then so go figure. What a particular repairman did later on while modifying some old bass to modern standards, who knows what alterations these guys did.

Remember, the violin in Strads time had a pitched maple fingerboard, not a pitched back neck with overstand. Many old Basses have the necks still just barely sticking out from the body and pitched back for the string height. Back then, who really cared about the 'fixed' peg endpin hole?

[Pino Cazzaniga]

I don't think this is the case,as the back edge was almost fine, but (maybe) some old instruments were played without an endpin, with the back edge on the floor, sometimes with a clog. A Busan bass in the Elgar book has a clog glued on the back, and I saw another one in person. If so, it make sense to move the endbutton towards the top to prevent it from touching the floor. They were not so tall, back then...

[Ken Smith]

I took the Storioni out to rehearsal on Sunday for a later May program with another Orchestra and then again Monday and Thursday for Saturday, tomorrows concert with my Orchestra. The bass sounded great but too much foot traffic on stage for my comfort concerning its safety. So tonight (Friday), I brought my Mittenwald bass (attr. L.Neuner) instead and it did just fine.

Yesterday we had the first run thru with the soloist, Pianist Simon Tedeschi from Australia, a Gershwin specialist. We are doing the Bernstein version of 'Rhapsody in Blue' (http://www.spso.info/images/Concert5.jpg) with him.

While warming up early (as I was as well) he started playing a few jazz heads. I tried from across the stage doodle along with him. On his drive back to the hotel, the chaperon (a board member) mentions that I was a Jazz player and such in conversation. He tells me when he got back for the 2nd half of the rehearsal (Shostakovich 5th) that maybe I should do a tune with him for the encore. I said "sure, we can rehearse Saturday afternoon before the concert".;) Tonight the conductor walks over and asks me to do a tune with him and he calls across the stage to ask which tune and Simon says 'Blue Monk'. After the Gershwin run thru I walk over with the bass and go over how he wants it and asked him to write out what I should do for the unison melody being that it was our only rehearsal, those 10 minutes. Then he asks, "do you know "the Preacher by Horace Silver? It might be better being that we are playing in a Church". I smile and say 'Yes' playing a bit of it and then I say "in 1969, I won the audition and one of my first gigs was playing with Horace". So he was thrilled and now he can announce I played with H.S. but I did remind him that in '69, 'The Preacher' wasn't a tune we did in Concert as Horace would usually play the newest tunes to promote his latest record.

It just so happens that the Neuner bass is a great Jazz sounding instrument as well. Very deep, punchy, pingy and loud enough to do the duo without an amp. I think if I played the Storioni, it might turn a few heads too many when I walk across stage for the encore with a giant looking Guitar and take attention away from the music. Carrying it with no corners to grab is also not so easy as one might imagine. The basses are tucked in the back along side the Cellos, just behind the Violas, and not across the back as usual. This is so the Tymp. player can be closer and not behind us directly. I am actually forward of the 3rd Cello row, just behind the second row Violas. Walking out for the Piano/Bass duo would be the first time they see a bass full view up close with this stage set-up as I walk between the Cellos and Violas, over the podium and stand next to the left hand side of the Piano. Kind of a first for me within an Orchestra Gig. The Nuener will handle the job just fine and not attract as much attention if at all as far as the actual bass goes.

Matt, do you know this guy? I hear is is quite famous in your land and around the world.

[Matthew Tucker]

Yes Simon Tedeschi is well known here. But I must confess, I've never heard him play.

[Ken Smith]

Yes Simon Tedeschi is well known here. But I must confess, I've never heard him play.

He's really a great player. My first time hearing him and hearing 'of' him as well. If in your area, he's definitely worth the ticket to go see and hear.

Now, back on topic. Later today I well run back to the shop and try the Storioni as a jazz bass and if I think she's ready for the task, switch her out in my case with the Neuner. Why not go all the way, right?;)

[Arnold Schnitzer]

[quote=Ken Smith;22417

Now, back on topic. Later today I well run back to the shop and try the Storioni as a jazz bass and if I think she's ready for the task, switch her out in my case with the Neuner. Why not go all the way, right?;)[/quote]
Put on the Spiros!

[Ken Smith]

Put on the Spiros!

Arnold, she growls just fine with the Bels and bows fantastic.. :cool:

[Ken Smith]

I brought the Storioni last night as I mentioned I was considering. Friday night rehearsals are always a bit hectic with people rushing thru traffic to get there on time so running across the stage the last minute and often thru the bass section is something I don't like while I'm playing or if my bass is lying down or on a chair. That's the main reason I didn't bring the Storioni on Friday.

While I was warming up last night my stand partner was about 100 feel behind me off stage trying to tune his bass with a Tuner. He has a nice '80s full sized Pollmann (Maggini/Panormo/Fendt model) with round back and sounds quite good. He told me later when we were packing up in the end that while he was trying to tune, my bass was registering on his tuner, every note I was playing. He also mentioned with a smile that I was in tune as well. Wow, what a relief.. lol

So, the bass is loud but carries thru the house as well. After the Gershwin with Piano and Orchestra the soloist did a bit more on his own and then announced me and invited me up. We did 'The Preacher' with a Piano intro and chorus solo and then I came in, no amp and, I had lowered my strings slightly from Orchestra set up in case he puts me on the spot to solo. He did, and I played two choruses, never struggling to get the sound out as I was confident I was being heard. The audience loved that Duo more then most of the program from what I had heard back.

For the 2nd half I raised the bridge back up a 1/4 turn and finished up the concert. My stand partner mentioned how loud my bass was and regardless of being to the right of me, can hear my bass over his which made him dig in a bit more where needed.

So, the Storioni is sounding better by the day after massive surgery and unlike a few people were concerned about, it didn't loose its 'golden' sound. In fact, it rings more than even from what I remember. Thanks Arnold, job well done! ;)

[Richard Prowse]

I brought the Storioni last night as I mentioned I was considering. Friday night rehearsals are always a bit hectic with people rushing thru traffic to get there on time so running across the stage the last minute and often thru the bass section is something I don't like while I'm playing or if my bass is lying down or on a chair. That's the main reason I didn't bring the Storioni on Friday.
I really identify with this! You lay a bass down and everybody seems to head towards it like a magnet! Some idiot violinist knocked my bass over at a gig recently. Funnily enough I'd gone to the bar to get her a drink - I was reluctant to leave my bass, but she was a guest at my 91 year old Aunty's birthday.

[Ken Smith]

I really identify with this! You lay a bass down and everybody seems to head towards it like a magnet! Some idiot violinist knocked my bass over at a gig recently. Funnily enough I'd gone to the bar to get her a drink - I was reluctant to leave my bass, but she was a guest at my 91 year old Aunty's birthday.

Richard, at the rehearsals I've done for my last 3 gigs I left the price tag hanging on the D tuner when I pulled the bass from the rack. One person looked and asked why it still has the tag on it. I said, so you know how much you owe when you knock it over! :eek::eek:

On a more friendly note, the new pics are up now and we left the old page stand as well so people can look at both and compare if they wish; http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/storioni/

[Richard Prowse]

Lovely looking bass!
Why did you put the little 'wolf tone' thing on the A string?

[Ken Smith]

Lovely looking bass!
Why did you put the little 'woof tone' thing on the A string?

Well, the bass is so lively that the a string being the highest off the Top is the most powerful note and over-vibrates the bass somewhat. Depending on the string, the wolf is more or less. It is mainly noticeable with the Bow and open A or A harmonic. With lighter strings, it's barely noticeable.

I did an Orchestra concert and Chamber Gig without the eliminator and had no problem at all. Playing alone in the room though I can hear everything. When I stop playing, all of the other basses in the rack are making noise. This monster vibrates everything from the floor to the ceiling and the walls as well as everything in-between.

I had Original Flat Chromes on it first and didn't like them on this bass. Then I put some played-in Belcantos on and the bass improved 100%. Then I tried the Passione's and wow, the bass loves them. I used to use Flex 92s with a Stark 92E. The Bass loved those as well. I have yet to try 92s on the Bass post restoration but the Passione's are doing just fine. I also have a set of Jargar medium's coming in but until the Passione's wear out or wear out their welcome, the Jargar's will sit in wait. I find that this bass prefers lighter than heavier strings. I have to listed to what she tells me! ;)

[Richard Prowse]

Well Ken, my Ab notes on E & A are a problem. Should I put my little screw on device back on? Say, on the A string?

[Ken Smith]

Well Ken, my Ab notes on E & A are a problem. Should I put my little screw on device back on? Say, on the A string?

Try it and also try on the D. The Ab wolf is what I have now slightly. Much less in the way than the A natural.

[Brian Gencarelli]

Ken,

You must hold on to that bass at least until August! I am going to be in the North East early to mid July and need to play that one. :D

We are starting to plan the itinerary now, so I will be in touch to see when we could drop by the shop and take a test drive.

Best,
Brian

[Ken Smith]

Ken,

You must hold on to that bass at least until August! I am going to be in the North East early to mid July and need to play that one. :D

We are starting to plan the itinerary now, so I will be in touch to see when we could drop by the shop and take a test drive.

Best,
Brian

I must? Well, I guess that's an offer I can't refuse. :cool:

[Richard Prowse]

I must? Well, I guess that's an offer I can't refuse. :cool:
I agree with Brian's sentiment. If the bass is that good, why would you want to get rid of it - life is too short.

Hey, I've just put that little screw gadget on my A string and the Ab seems clear now on that string!

[Ken Smith]

I agree with Brian's sentiment. If the bass is that good, why would you want to get rid of it - life is too short.

Hey, I've just put that little screw gadget on my A string and the Ab seems clear now on that string!

Who says I want to get rid of it? Today I used my Mittenwald bass and will use it tomorrow as well. The Storioni is not a bass I can take to just any gig. It needs a guard for many of the places I might play or rehearse. Not from being stolen or the audience but from other Musicians knocking it over or in to it.

Also, I have other basses I like playing as well. One other bass in particular that I have in restoration is a sweet sounding old Italian that I am waiting to play and see which I like better.

Besides playing and collecting, these are basses I sell. I would prefer if sold, the Storioni would go to a player that I look up to and admire. I play it in the shop just about every day. Until Orchestra season starts up in the Fall, I have no where to take it. The concerts I have in the Spring and Summer are just not optimum situations for a bass like this unless it's the only bass I have.

[Richard Prowse]

Ken,
if you're happy, I'm happy.

[Richard Prowse]

Ken, just a little question about that little wolf tone device on your A string.
I put one on my A string (same place as yours) and it got rid of my Ab wolf tones - then I discovered that G, up on the A string, had a wolf tone. I tried the little chap on the D string, but it still effected the G.
I've taken it off because it is easier to live with a funny Ab. Have you had much experience with wolf tones? Is there any logic behind how the little device works?

[Ken Smith]

Ken, just a little question about that little wolf tone device on your A string.
I put one on my A string (same place as yours) and it got rid of my Ab wolf tones - then I discovered that G, up on the A string, had a wolf tone. I tried the little chap on the D string, but it still effected the G.
I've taken it off because it is easier to live with a funny Ab. Have you had much experience with wolf tones? Is there any logic behind how the little device works?

I don't know much about them only that they are waht we refer to as resonant frequencies. I remember back in the early 70s discussing this same thing about problems on a bass guitar (not to mention brand) and that's what we called them back then.

You can find a wolf on any instrument no matter how subtle but it's there.

[Richard Prowse]

I don't know much about them only that they are waht we refer to as resonant frequencies. I remember back in the early 70s discussing this same thing about problems on a bass guitar (not to mention brand) and that's what we called them back then.

You can find a wolf on any instrument no matter how subtle but it's there.
Thanks Ken. Sounds like that Ab is just something I'll have to live with.

[Ken Smith]

I made a new Thread for one of my Cornerless Basses that has Corners but outside Scalloped Blocks. Thread here. (http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=1943)

I have also seen several basses that had single Guitar Ribs but the Top and back had Corners. On the Ribs were glued on external corners across the Ribs. Only on of these I have seen in person. Inside, it looks totally Cornerless Guitar style. Here are a few borrowed (http://www5.ocn.ne.jp/%7Eatto/Salvadori/Salvadori.html) pictures.

http://www5.ocn.ne.jp/%7Eatto/Salvadori/4.JPGhttp://www5.ocn.ne.jp/%7Eatto/Salvadori/3.JPG

I have seen a few others as well with similar external Blocks. One attributed to Testore, one to Montagnana and one just Northern Italy. None of them resembled each other in the actual style of the bass so I would say 4 different makers.

So whether Scalloped blocks externally or full blocks, there is more then one method of making a Cornerless Bass internally or rather, a Guitar model Bass.

To date, I have played each of the 3 styles, two of which I currently own.

[Nathan Parker]

I'm a bit confused as to the scalloped blocks. Are they what appear to be (for my novice eyes) rounded violin corners? That's how I'm perceiving them. Could they have been added later, or where they build with the bass?

Either ways, very nice looking basses. How do I go about getting in your will, Ken?

Edit: After looking closer at the pictures of your Scallopini, I see it a bit more clearly now. That is some impressive woodwork. Are the purely for beauty, or do the have a function? Perhaps they make the bass easier to lie down?

[Ken Smith]

I'm a bit confused as to the scalloped blocks. Are they what appear to be (for my novice eyes) rounded violin corners? That's how I'm perceiving them. Could they have been added later, or where they build with the bass?

Either ways, very nice looking basses. How do I go about getting in your will, Ken?

Edit: After looking closer at the pictures of your Scallopini, I see it a bit more clearly now. That is some impressive woodwork. Are the purely for beauty, or do the have a function? Perhaps they make the bass easier to lie down?

http://www.smithbassforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2143&d=1310088306

The first time I saw pictures of this bass I had my own doubts as the blocks looked detached from the actual bass in design. When I finally saw the bass in person it all came together in seconds. The Blocks are original to the bass. Without them, the corners would break off having no support under them. When Robbie (the Restorer) first saw the bass, he thought they were ingenious (or some comment like that Arnold mentioned to me).

Upon closer examination, the 'fluting' of the Scallops in the Blocks looked just like the Neck Button carving. The same hand, without a doubt in my mind. Internally, this bass looks a bit like a large elongated guitar. Externally, it looks like a violin model bass. The Scalloped blocks and the hooked 'tooth'-like corners leads me to believe it was a maker near a sea coast. That is why I suspect Genoa. My Candi bass has a carved out Crab in the Gear handles. I have been told these are from hotel keys and I have seen the same handles on other Italian gears as well. So Sea-like ornamentations on one Genovese bass leads me to believe it was a sign of the culture. Having the Scalloped Blocks, hooked like Corners (Shark tooth?), a Guitar/Violin maker in the period of this Bass named Lodivico and an actual similar shaped bass model almost as old (but more refined in its Violin style) seen with the inscription Lod Parisini 1813 (Bologna) all seems connected within this bass.

I might be totally wrong on the maker's name here but the other bass with the same shape, size and angled sloped shouldered round back looks like a match to me. I have never seen a bass like this before, all things considered. Look at the Scroll pics. This maker made this Bass. Similar carving to the Blocks but the Violin skills shine the brightest in the Head and also the beautiful Fs.

My bass cover is in the car. In a few hours I will hit the road to get this beauty. More to come on this... ;)

[Ken Smith]

Some recent shots now on FaceBook

[Eric Hochberg]

Don't know if this bass has been discussed here, but here it is.

http://www.reinshagenbasssale.com

[Ken Smith]

Don't know if this bass has been discussed here, but here it is.

http://www.reinshagenbasssale.com

Yes, a few times and it was back in 2009 the first time it was posted here, many many pics. A very plain looking bass with a German style scroll but looks different in the back. The owner was more famous than the maker from what I see.

[Matthew Tucker]

I love the nickless FFs.

http://www.reinshagenbasssale.com/Bass_Photos-4.jpg

[Eric Hochberg]

Have you seen these interesting basses on the ISB site?

http://www.isbworldoffice.com/bass-sell.asp

[Ken Smith]

Have you seen these interesting basses on the ISB site?

http://www.isbworldoffice.com/bass-sell.asp

http://www.isbworldoffice.com/images/bass-sell/20130315-Antonio-Ranea-Large.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/marconcini/images/big/front-full.jpg

That bass is a short string langth (40.35", 102.5cm), where as my Scallopini is now 41 1/4" but was closer to 43" with the previous neck. The body length is also close to 44" on mine so despit the smaller look, its a regular 3/4 bass. Many of these Guitar basses are small in design but some of them are bigger full Orchestra sized basses.

I've seen the pictures but never had the bass in my hands. It's in Spain I think. I have seen pics of many Italian basses with outside corner blocks. These corners look rounded over and the outer corners probably glued on the one piece ribs. My Scallopini bass has tiny blocks outside and cornerless inside as well. I once had an old Italian bass in the shop to examine internally with outer glued on cornerblocks and it was all cornerless inside as well.

Nice idea but with the long single floating ribs on each side, besides the slight sound difference, I think it can pull more on the top and crack itself more easily than cornered basses. When the bass moves, something has to give. The ribs on my Scallopini bass (Marconcini school) hardly look their age. The top shows its age easily but the back is fairly healthy with mainly only a center seam repair within the last century.

[Matthew Tucker]

with the long single floating ribs on each side, besides the slight sound difference, I think it can pull more on the top and crack itself more easily than cornered basses. When the bass moves, something has to give.

Another way of thinking about it, is that without the stiffening corner blocks, the whole assembly is more flexible, so when the top or back moves with humidity, so does everything else, meaning the top and back is less likely to crack.

[Ken Smith]

Another way of thinking about it, is that without the stiffening corner blocks, the whole assembly is more flexible, so when the top or back moves with humidity, so does everything else, meaning the top and back is less likely to crack.

In a way Matt but the back woods if maple are more flexible than spruce or pine. Also, the pressure of the strings is directly on the top with some on the stronger back wood via the soundpost if a roundback without a center brace.

We don't know how the woods were aged in these old basses and with various thicknesses and designs, science is hard to apply here. I think 'in theory' is about as good as we can do. Then, hope for the best! ;)

[Matthew Tucker]

my point, exactly! :-)

[Eric Hochberg]

Any comments on these also for sale on the ISB site? I'm not sure if you saw them.

[Ken Smith]

Any comments on these also for sale on the ISB site? I'm not sure if you saw them.

Yes, I know of both those basses and I think I played the Baldontoni in 2009. It is a fairly small bass. I think my Marconcini bass is much better and better priced than either of those regardless of the past owner of the other bass.

If you are looking for an old Italian guitar shaped bass for a great price, I have it. Just come and play it. My bass is perfectly shaped for playing and is not a small bass by average standards. The new neck graft with a D-Heel and deeper block set brought it 'down' to 41 1/4" mensur from closer to 43" with an Eb neck when I got the bass. I have played mine in the Orchestra next to a full sized '80s Pollmann Maggini roundback used in pro orchestras and there was no problem hearing me with or over him doing Mozart 36. The Violas and Cellos around me (as I was tucked in between their last chairs) keep looking over at the bass during rehearsal and commented how beautiful the tone was. In the distance, it's as loud as my Hart/Maggini model bass and that's a professional orchestra pedigee classic. Many of the other smaller guitar basses are only suitable for chamber or solo work as they were originally intended for. This one of mine is as long a body length as any of my other 3/4 basses or even longer than some.

When Stefano Sciascia played it at this last ISB, he commented to me, "don't sell this bass!". He played it the first day or the show and the last day as well when he came to try my Slaviero bow and picked the Marconcini model to try it in. With a smile on his face while playing it I asked, "so how is the Bow?".. He commented, "I am not listening to the Bow, I am listening to the bass". So in the end, he never told me anything about the bow I wanted him to test for me but did mesmerize us for about 15 minutes of ad-lib playing on the bass.

[Jonathan Stefaniak]

Has any one ever seen Ermanno Ferrari with his Cornerless Bass or have some pictures to share with us? I have been told in a copy of a letter that he bought a Bass by Spanish maker J.Guillami from Gary Karr some years ago.

All I have found so far on the web is this; http://www.yamamoto-bass.com/cd/ferrari/ferrari.html

http://www.yamamoto-bass.com/cd/ferrari/8.jpg

Hi there,

I thought I'd share that I recently bought this Guillami at Thomas Martin's shop.
This was the same 1767 Joan Guillami bass that Anton Torello used throughout his career for solo playing.

I was wondering if anyone has and photos of Gary Karr actually playing it.

While the link lasts:
http://www.thomasmartin.co.uk/instruments-for-sale/old-basses/joan-guillami

[Ken Smith]

Hi there,

I thought I'd share that I recently bought this Guillami at Thomas Martin's shop.
This was the same 1767 Joan Guillami bass that Anton Torello used throughout his career for solo playing.

I was wondering if anyone has and photos of Gary Karr actually playing it.

While the link lasts:
http://www.thomasmartin.co.uk/instruments-for-sale/old-basses/joan-guillami

Why not just ask Gary Karr?

[Jonathan Stefaniak]

Why not just ask Gary Karr?

I think I will.